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Indigo Partners to order 430 A320s at Dubai

Wed Nov 15, 2017 1:12 am

Airbus Nears Deal for 430 Jets With Indigo Partners.

The transaction, one of the biggest aircraft sales in history, is set to be announced Wednesday at the Dubai Air Show.

The upgraded single-aisle jet would go to airlines in Indigo’s investment portfolio: Frontier Airlines, Mexico’s Volaris, European carrier Wizz Air Holdings Plc and upstart JetSmart, which began operating this year in Chile, the people said.


https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... o-partners
 
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enilria
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Re: Indigo Partners to order 430 A320s at Dubai

Wed Nov 15, 2017 1:38 am

I'm guessing less than 20% are delivered.
 
ahj2000
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Re: Indigo Partners to order 430 A320s at Dubai

Wed Nov 15, 2017 1:41 am

That is one hell of a lot of airplanes. I wonder how they plan on distributing them.
-Andrés Juánez
 
tphuang
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Re: Indigo Partners to order 430 A320s at Dubai

Wed Nov 15, 2017 1:46 am

this sounds completely crazy. Maybe they intend to lease some?
 
planespotter20
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Re: Indigo Partners to order 430 A320s at Dubai

Wed Nov 15, 2017 1:56 am

420!!? Holy hell that’s a lot of planes. It would sure steal a lot of the show though, especially from Boeing who has had most of the lightning so far.
 
Newbiepilot
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Re: Indigo Partners to order 430 A320s at Dubai

Wed Nov 15, 2017 2:06 am

Indigo partners has stakes in Frontier, Spirit, Wizz, Jetsmart, Volaris, etc so they do have a number of all Airbus low cost carriers to place airplanes with. 430 is a lot of orders especially when all those airlines already have A320neos on order.
 
N809FR
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Re: Indigo Partners to order 430 A320s at Dubai

Wed Nov 15, 2017 2:47 am

Frontier (79), Spirit (107), Wizzair (87), Volaris (67+3 at Volaris Costa Rica), JetSMART (3) have a combined fleet of 346 aircraft, some of which are NEO, why on earth would you need 430 more planes?
 
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aemoreira1981
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Re: Indigo Partners to order 430 A320s at Dubai

Wed Nov 15, 2017 3:04 am

tphuang wrote:
this sounds completely crazy. Maybe they intend to lease some?


I suspect that many will end up under a sale-leaseback scheme, although Spirit Airlines has been transitioning to long-term ownership of aircraft. I also suspect that the majority will be for Wizz Air, although Indigo's Wizz stake is for sale. As for JetSMART, I would not be surprised to see Indigo try to make them into a true ULCC South American carrier, with the idea of creating a pan-American airline group (Frontier, Spirit, Volaris, and JetSMART), with Wizz Air expanding into western Europe. I wouldn't be surprised if Volaris ends up being the Americas brand as it works in both English and Spanish.

Also, I wouldn't be surprised if Indigo Partners decides to set up a leasing firm to lease these planes out to other operators, in addition to those in which Indigo currently has a stake (not unlike what Norwegian has done with its own dry-leasing division).
Last edited by aemoreira1981 on Wed Nov 15, 2017 3:06 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
Dominion301
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Re: Indigo Partners to order 430 A320s at Dubai

Wed Nov 15, 2017 3:05 am

N809FR wrote:
Frontier (79), Spirit (107), Wizzair (87), Volaris (67+3 at Volaris Costa Rica), JetSMART (3) have a combined fleet of 346 aircraft, some of which are NEO, why on earth would you need 430 more planes?


Sounds like they want to become a leasing company with the airlines they hold investments in as some of their major companies.
 
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3rdGen
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Re: Indigo Partners to order 430 A320s at Dubai

Wed Nov 15, 2017 3:11 am

If all you do is lease the aircraft then basically ordering new aircraft as replacements isn't actually an added cost. Sure the lease rate at the beginning may be high but maintainance is far less. Believe it or not a newer plane may be cheaper than an older one.

Also the airlines have detailed calculations regarding what the optimum age is for replacement of an aircraft. Take the scenario of a LCC that wants a fleet of 120 aircraft delivered at a rate of one per month. If the airline wants to replace aircraft after 10 years of service that means deliveries essentially never stop. Especially if there is expansions.

In addition you buy for 4-5 years down the line. Airlines need to confirm the slots. An airline that waits until it's time to replace an aircraft to make an order they will be hanging on to aircraft they don't ideally want because it takes years after ordering for deliveries to start. Especially for popular aircraft like the 320.

Anybody have any idea of how long one would have to wait for a 320 these days?
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FoxtrotSierra
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Re: Indigo Partners to order 430 A320s at Dubai

Wed Nov 15, 2017 3:30 am

It takes a lot, but this really makes EK look like child's play :shock:
 
rph99
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Re: Indigo Partners to order 430 A320s at Dubai

Wed Nov 15, 2017 3:32 am

Goodness that’s a hefty order! Anyone know the largest aircraft order in history? Surely this is close?

Would love to see Frontier and Spirit merge (only if the Frontier name survives) triple their fleet size and dominate with their ULCC model.
 
RJMAZ
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Re: Indigo Partners to order 430 A320s at Dubai

Wed Nov 15, 2017 3:33 am

The larger the backlog becomes the further ahead you have to place your order. Its growing exponentially.

In theory, if the backlog neared 10 years of production and airlines replaced their aircraft every 10 years, they would begin ordering the replacements for replacements and the backlog would quickly grow to 20+ years.
 
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MrHMSH
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Re: Indigo Partners to order 430 A320s at Dubai

Wed Nov 15, 2017 3:58 am

Don't you know that the show is over and Airbus is ZERO for Dubai? How the mighty have fallen...
 
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Re: Indigo Partners to order 430 A320s at Dubai

Wed Nov 15, 2017 4:28 am

MrHMSH wrote:
Don't you know that the show is over and Airbus is ZERO for Dubai? How the mighty have fallen...


Airbus has a press conference scheduled for 11am local time today
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ap305
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Re: Indigo Partners to order 430 A320s at Dubai

Wed Nov 15, 2017 4:28 am

Leahy the man who sold the sky.....what on earth will Airbus do without him? If confirmed they should put a statute of gold not bronze....
Racing, competing, is in my blood. It's part of me, it's part of my life; I've been doing it all my life. And it stands up before anything else- Ayrton Senna
 
log0008
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Re: Indigo Partners to order 430 A320s at Dubai

Wed Nov 15, 2017 4:46 am

I just realized that the 2 biggest customers of the A320neo will be Indigo Partners and IndiGO (the Indian Airline)! *If this is correct
 
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mariner
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Re: Indigo Partners to order 430 A320s at Dubai

Wed Nov 15, 2017 4:51 am

MrHMSH wrote:
Don't you know that the show is over and Airbus is ZERO for Dubai? How the mighty have fallen...


IF this order is true, then how can they possibly be "the mighty fallen"? - LOL.

It might be a turn around from the old days when Boeing didn't save orders for air shows (like Dubai) and Airbus did. But it's funny. :-)

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Spiderguy252
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Re: Indigo Partners to order 430 A320s at Dubai

Wed Nov 15, 2017 5:20 am

Funny - an airline called IndiGo have ordered 400+ A320s and A321s for just themselves.

I thought this was what the thread was about, that it was the formal signing of the order. Haven't heard of Indigo partners before.
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Aloha717200
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Re: Indigo Partners to order 430 A320s at Dubai

Wed Nov 15, 2017 5:46 am

That's an amazing figure. I only wish it were for something a bit more interesting. I've had my fill of A320s! :)
 
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seahawk
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Re: Indigo Partners to order 430 A320s at Dubai

Wed Nov 15, 2017 6:07 am

That seems like an awful lot of planes.
 
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A330freak
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Re: Indigo Partners to order 430 A320s at Dubai

Wed Nov 15, 2017 7:14 am

Airbus has confirmed the order which at its current state is a MoU
Image
https://twitter.com/Airbus/status/930694171324768256
 
BlueSky1976
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Re: Indigo Partners to order 430 A320s at Dubai

Wed Nov 15, 2017 7:19 am

Johnny "The Mouth" goes out with a big bang for sure. I hope Airbus hires someone with just as much charisma.
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A330freak
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Re: Indigo Partners to order 430 A320s at Dubai

Wed Nov 15, 2017 7:25 am

Here's the breakdown of aircraft between airlines. As other have said, that's a hell of a lot of planes it does seem extremely ambitious.

-Frontier: 100 A320neo, 34 A321neo
-JetSMART: 56 A320neo, 14 A321neo
-Volaris: 46 A320neo, 34 A321neo
-Wizzair: 72 A320neo, 74 A321neo

https://twitter.com/RAeSTimR/status/930696421791191040
 
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Francoflier
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Re: Indigo Partners to order 430 A320s at Dubai

Wed Nov 15, 2017 7:42 am

430 airliners in one fell order...
Image


(Ok, LOI, but still...)
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LockheedBBD
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Re: Indigo Partners to order 430 A320s at Dubai

Wed Nov 15, 2017 7:44 am

Perhaps the deal was too good to refuse.
Last edited by LockheedBBD on Wed Nov 15, 2017 7:57 am, edited 2 times in total.
 
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mariner
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Re: Indigo Partners to order 430 A320s at Dubai

Wed Nov 15, 2017 8:21 am

LockheedBBD wrote:
Perhaps the deal was too good to refuse.


If an airline doesn't believe it can fly the aircraft profitably then no deal is too good to refuse. No one wants to be stuck with a big bunch of aircraft that are losing money.

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Asiaflyer
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Re: Indigo Partners to order 430 A320s at Dubai

Wed Nov 15, 2017 8:23 am

This is a massive commitment! Big congrats to Airbus and Indigo Partners.
Indigo Partners must have worked for a while to get this package together....
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Olddog
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Re: Indigo Partners to order 430 A320s at Dubai

Wed Nov 15, 2017 8:37 am

My theory is that MoU was to be announced late december, but was known earlier as a slap back in EK face.
 
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EA CO AS
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Re: Indigo Partners to order 430 A320s at Dubai

Wed Nov 15, 2017 8:37 am

A330freak wrote:
Here's the breakdown of aircraft between airlines. As other have said, that's a hell of a lot of planes it does seem extremely ambitious.

-Frontier: 100 A320neo, 34 A321neo
-JetSMART: 56 A320neo, 14 A321neo
-Volaris: 46 A320neo, 34 A321neo
-Wizzair: 72 A320neo, 74 A321neo

https://twitter.com/RAeSTimR/status/930696421791191040


Burying the lead a bit, this means F9 is nearly tripling the size of their current fleet (assuming no retirements by the time all 134 new frames are delivered). That's a whole lot of ULCC to throw into the U.S. marketplace.
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Taxi645
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Re: Indigo Partners to order 430 A320s at Dubai

Wed Nov 15, 2017 8:37 am

A noticeable absence of the A319 and C-series.

In regards to the A319 that might indicate that:
1 Indeed Airbus is serious in dropping the A319 in favour of the C-series
2 Or there was no interest

In regards to the C-series:
1 Perhaps still too soon after the Airbus/Bombardier deal with perhaps more to follow?
2 Or didn't fit in the plan?
 
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mariner
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Re: Indigo Partners to order 430 A320s at Dubai

Wed Nov 15, 2017 8:47 am

Taxi645 wrote:
A noticeable absence of the A319 and C-series.


Along with this big order, Frontier announced today that has converted its order for 18 x A319Neo to 18 x A320Neo.

https://globenewswire.com/news-release/ ... CRAFT.html

"FRONTIER AIRLINES ANNOUNCES HUGE EXPANSION WITH COMMITMENT FOR 134 AIRCRAFT

Additionally, Frontier today converted its remaining 18 A319neo orders to the A320neo aircraft. The airline currently has 67 A320neo aircraft on order."


mariner
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Re: Indigo Partners to order 430 A320s at Dubai

Wed Nov 15, 2017 9:25 am

With all due respect to Airbus and John Leahy this MoU reeks of saving face. They had come to Dubai with all hands on deck and were going to announce a major order for their flagship product. John Leahy was going to go out as a hero for saving the A380 program and it was going to make major headlines that many felt could translate into more orders for the starving program. Then the unthinkable happened and EK left them at the alter and Airbus was humiliated, and it did make major headlines, just for all the wrong reasons. After the EK/A380 debacle, there was no way that Airbus was going home with just a an order of 25 aircraft from an Wataniya, an unknown Kuwait Airline. There was no way that John Leahy was going to go out this way. His legacy would forever have been tarnished from this Dubai Airshow.They needed something to make the bad press go away and something BIG. Enter Indigo Partners. While this is order is very impressive and is making headlines, it is a pipe dream at best, and John Leahy won't be around to have to worry when it gets scaled back, cancelled, or forgotten. Airbus and John Leahy once again came out on top, for now, and they have Indigo Partners to thank, which I am sure will be calling in their favor very soon.
 
RalXWB
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Re: Indigo Partners to order 430 A320s at Dubai

Wed Nov 15, 2017 9:34 am

It is only a pipe dream in your reality. I wonder what you will say when this commitment does not get scaled back, cancelled or forgotten...smh. It is also interesting that you did not say anything about the FlyDubai "commitment".
 
Asiaplt85
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Re: Indigo Partners to order 430 A320s at Dubai

Wed Nov 15, 2017 9:38 am

Actually, Airbus has been negotiating this order with indigo since early September. It amazes me, how people get so defensive on this message board. This order will be profiled and Frontier will continue to grow in a great market. This business model is the future of the USA, Europe excepted it and we're slowly excepting it.
 
ap305
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Re: Indigo Partners to order 430 A320s at Dubai

Wed Nov 15, 2017 9:42 am

I would bet on a group of airlines run by a shrewd equity management entity than an airline dependent on connecting traffic that may vanish with changing market dynamics....
Racing, competing, is in my blood. It's part of me, it's part of my life; I've been doing it all my life. And it stands up before anything else- Ayrton Senna
 
VSMUT
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Re: Indigo Partners to order 430 A320s at Dubai

Wed Nov 15, 2017 9:46 am

N809FR wrote:
Frontier (79), Spirit (107), Wizzair (87), Volaris (67+3 at Volaris Costa Rica), JetSMART (3) have a combined fleet of 346 aircraft, some of which are NEO, why on earth would you need 430 more planes?


Partially for growth, partially for replacement. Deliveries of these could stretch out more than 10 years into the future, and Indigo is already known for phasing out its A320s early. Almost the entire fleet of SAS A320CEOs are former Indigo planes. This is actually quite attractive for future resale, since an airline could order a fleet of hundreds of completely identical second-hand A320s with plenty of life left.

If you place 80 to 90 for each of those airlines, then the entire order is already placed. Thats not even so far fetched once you look at existing orders, potential growth and how many planes are approaching 10 years or older. The Volaris and JetSmart brands alone could have the potential to become 150+ aircraft operators each.

Edit: Apparently Indigo Partners isn't related to the Indian low cost airlines Indigo.
Last edited by VSMUT on Wed Nov 15, 2017 9:55 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
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LoganTheBogan
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Re: Indigo Partners to order 430 A320s at Dubai

Wed Nov 15, 2017 9:49 am

John Leahy has done it again. What a way to end his career! Hopefully the new person has just as much enthusiasm and skill.
Anyone who has never made a mistake has never tried anything new.
 
mjoelnir
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Re: Indigo Partners to order 430 A320s at Dubai

Wed Nov 15, 2017 9:54 am

piedmontf284000 wrote:
With all due respect to Airbus and John Leahy this MoU reeks of saving face. They had come to Dubai with all hands on deck and were going to announce a major order for their flagship product. John Leahy was going to go out as a hero for saving the A380 program and it was going to make major headlines that many felt could translate into more orders for the starving program. Then the unthinkable happened and EK left them at the alter and Airbus was humiliated, and it did make major headlines, just for all the wrong reasons. After the EK/A380 debacle, there was no way that Airbus was going home with just a an order of 25 aircraft from an Wataniya, an unknown Kuwait Airline. There was no way that John Leahy was going to go out this way. His legacy would forever have been tarnished from this Dubai Airshow.They needed something to make the bad press go away and something BIG. Enter Indigo Partners. While this is order is very impressive and is making headlines, it is a pipe dream at best, and John Leahy won't be around to have to worry when it gets scaled back, cancelled, or forgotten. Airbus and John Leahy once again came out on top, for now, and they have Indigo Partners to thank, which I am sure will be calling in their favor very soon.


Sour grapes? Somebody stealing the limelight from Boeing? Why should this announcement not have been planed for the Dubai Air Show?
 
Asiaplt85
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Re: Indigo Partners to order 430 A320s at Dubai

Wed Nov 15, 2017 9:57 am

N809FR wrote:
Frontier (79), Spirit (107), Wizzair (87), Volaris (67+3 at Volaris Costa Rica), JetSMART (3) have a combined fleet of 346 aircraft, some of which are NEO, why on earth would you need 430 more planes?

Subtract the Spirit 107, indigo sold out of spirit in 2013. A quick google search would help you out. https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.thestr ... ntier.html
 
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CARST
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Re: Indigo Partners to order 430 A320s at Dubai

Wed Nov 15, 2017 10:02 am

I guess there was a time, when worldwide less than 430 airliners where on order. Like in the 1960s. How many 707, DC-8s, 727s, etc. were on order each year? Someone has data on this?


Only thing that makes me suspicious is that some news websites said "Indigo group doubles its order". So does that mean they had already 200+ on order and now added another 200+ for a 430 total? So the new order is "just" for 200+ jets? Anyone can clear this up?
 
tommy1808
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Re: Indigo Partners to order 430 A320s at Dubai

Wed Nov 15, 2017 10:08 am

enilria wrote:
I'm guessing less than 20% are delivered.


Even Skybus took more than 20% of its order before going belly up. Can you name any such deal that actually delivered 20% or less of what was ordered,

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Re: Indigo Partners to order 430 A320s at Dubai

Wed Nov 15, 2017 10:11 am

mjoelnir wrote:
piedmontf284000 wrote:
With all due respect to Airbus and John Leahy this MoU reeks of saving face. They had come to Dubai with all hands on deck and were going to announce a major order for their flagship product. John Leahy was going to go out as a hero for saving the A380 program and it was going to make major headlines that many felt could translate into more orders for the starving program. Then the unthinkable happened and EK left them at the alter and Airbus was humiliated, and it did make major headlines, just for all the wrong reasons. After the EK/A380 debacle, there was no way that Airbus was going home with just a an order of 25 aircraft from an Wataniya, an unknown Kuwait Airline. There was no way that John Leahy was going to go out this way. His legacy would forever have been tarnished from this Dubai Airshow.They needed something to make the bad press go away and something BIG. Enter Indigo Partners. While this is order is very impressive and is making headlines, it is a pipe dream at best, and John Leahy won't be around to have to worry when it gets scaled back, cancelled, or forgotten. Airbus and John Leahy once again came out on top, for now, and they have Indigo Partners to thank, which I am sure will be calling in their favor very soon.


Sour grapes? Somebody stealing the limelight from Boeing? Why should this announcement not have been planed for the Dubai Air Show?


Yes, you got me. I am a bitter Boeing fan who cannot stand the headlines that Airbus got. If this announcement was planned, then why wouldn't have Airbus announced it on the 1st day of the airshow? Seems to me that it would have been the ultimate coup de gras to any other announcement at the show. Why wait?
 
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Re: Indigo Partners to order 430 A320s at Dubai

Wed Nov 15, 2017 10:50 am

piedmontf284000 wrote:
Seems to me that it would have been the ultimate coup de gras to any other announcement at the show. Why wait?


Best things last. And when you can be fairly certain that you can one-up pretty much any landmark order Boeing would get, it is a good idea to keep that for later. Also possible that there had been last items that needed discussing.

Also, why would Indigo Partners lend itself to such a marketing stunt? Wouldn't it be interesting for the SEC if a equity company makes false claims about its operations and intentions? Serious question.

Best regards
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lightsaber
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Re: Indigo Partners to order 430 A320s at Dubai

Wed Nov 15, 2017 11:15 am

The order is mind numbing in size.
Kudos to JL.
mariner wrote:
Additionally, Frontier today converted its remaining 18 A319neo orders to the A320neo aircraft. The airline currently has 67 A320neo aircraft on order."[/i]

So the total of 51 A319NEO orders becomes 33. No one will pay attention to that small shift among an order for 430.

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BobMUC
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Re: Indigo Partners to order 430 A320s at Dubai

Wed Nov 15, 2017 11:27 am

CARST wrote:
I guess there was a time, when worldwide less than 430 airliners where on order. Like in the 1960s. How many 707, DC-8s, 727s, etc. were on order each year? Someone has data on this?


Only thing that makes me suspicious is that some news websites said "Indigo group doubles its order". So does that mean they had already 200+ on order and now added another 200+ for a 430 total? So the new order is "just" for 200+ jets? Anyone can clear this up?


They had 427 orders before and now ordering 430 additional aircraft:

Indigo Partners doubles existing A320neo Family order
http://www.airbus.com/newsroom/press-re ... order.html
Last edited by BobMUC on Wed Nov 15, 2017 11:36 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
mat66
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Re: Indigo Partners to order 430 A320s at Dubai

Wed Nov 15, 2017 11:35 am

lightsaber wrote:
The order is mind numbing in size.
Kudos to JL.
mariner wrote:
Additionally, Frontier today converted its remaining 18 A319neo orders to the A320neo aircraft. The airline currently has 67 A320neo aircraft on order."[/i]

So the total of 51 A319NEO orders becomes 33. No one will pay attention to that small shift among an order for 430.

Lightsaber


You're right, Lightsaber.

I just want to summarize the A319neo situation, if I may.
There are now 33 firm orders.

20 from Avianca, which they ordered with 100 A320neo and 17 A321neo on 26.1.2012. Almost 6 years ago.
3 government, VIP A319ACJ
10 undisclosed of which 3 were booked 13.3.2017 and 4 10.4.2017. The other 3 I don't know. These sound A319ACJ for me, as well. 3 separate orders of small numbers.

Any bets on Avianca ever taking those 20? There are IMHO only two reasons to do so. You absolutely need the extra 200nm range or short field performance. There is an option of the A320neo for the latter.

What I'm getting at is that we might never see a A319neo in regular commercial airline service ever. Just my 2c and now back to topic ;)
 
LJ
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Re: Indigo Partners to order 430 A320s at Dubai

Wed Nov 15, 2017 11:45 am

piedmontf284000 wrote:
Yes, you got me. I am a bitter Boeing fan who cannot stand the headlines that Airbus got. If this announcement was planned, then why wouldn't have Airbus announced it on the 1st day of the airshow? Seems to me that it would have been the ultimate coup de gras to any other announcement at the show. Why wait?


Maybe because the 1st day EK's day and you don't want to spoil the party of one of your most important customers. Other reason could be that you would prefer to go out with a bang. Who knows. In the end noboy knows if this was planned or not, but there are enough reasons to assume that they didn't bring this news forward as there are to assume the they did it. Only Airbus and Indigo know the truth.
 
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Re: Indigo Partners to order 430 A320s at Dubai

Wed Nov 15, 2017 11:51 am

tommy1808 wrote:
Also possible that there had been last items that needed discussing.

That's what I'd put my money on. Just looking at the scheduled and cancelled press conferences that Airbus had, even after the EK A380 "news" became public, suggests that the announcement of this MoU would have been made earlier but kept getting pushed back pending final agreement of the paperwork.

What most people don't seem to realise is that even an MoU almost always contains a whole load of contractual commitments, mostly relating to the huge amount of work required, by many parties, to turn the MoU into firm contracts.

As for those people trying to dismiss this order as "only an MoU" - as others have pointed out, MoUs very rarely fail to get converted into firm commitments. This is basically a firm order pending agreement of all the fine detail between Airbus, Indigo, the end-user airlines, and a myriad of third-party suppliers, service providers & financiers. An order of this magnitude will involve many thousands of interdependent contracts, all of which takes time. I think JL's bonus is safe.

Can't help thinking that Airbus will need to plan further increases in their production rate though. Backlog is getting ridiculous now.
 
ap305
Posts: 1188
Joined: Mon Jan 03, 2000 4:03 am

Re: Indigo Partners to order 430 A320s at Dubai

Wed Nov 15, 2017 1:04 pm

Mr Franke says the deal should close by year end...

http://www.bbc.com/news/business-41994142
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