zeus01
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NWA Flights: MSP Or Dtw?

Tue Feb 26, 2002 11:25 am

Which of NWA's largest hubs has the most flights per day? DTW or MSP? I know DTW does most of the internationals, but what about the other flights. I know MSP is a bigger airport and according to the DOT is the 7th busiest in the nation. But it didn't say anything about how many were NW flights.
IF you know, please give the source where you found it.
 
wadha
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RE: NWA Flights: MSP Or Dtw?

Tue Feb 26, 2002 11:46 am

Here we go again

zeus01 with his northwest this and that!

are you going to work for northwest some day? i will be VERY disappointed if you did not  Big grin
 
Continental
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RE: NWA Flights: MSP Or Dtw?

Tue Feb 26, 2002 12:46 pm

MSP gets a ton of NWA traffic. I'd have to check on the list of most busiest. I know that MSP has more Asia flights! I just hope NWA keeps expanding more at NWA, and to stop gobbling up airlines like SUN COUNTRY!

Continental
 
aking8488
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RE: NWA Flights: MSP Or Dtw?

Tue Feb 26, 2002 1:35 pm

More Asia flights out of MSP? Correct me if I'm wrong but don't they just have a daily NRT flight? I don't believe there's any other MSP-Asia flights. I know they had two to NRT for awhile before 9/11. DTW has a daily NRT too. As far as Sun Country goes, I see that situation as economic efficiency in its best form. They were a lousy airline based on my experiences and in the end, based on my humble opinion, things got sorted out the way they should have. Incidentally, I was hoping they would succeed since they did bring much-need competition to MSP.
 
Guest

RE: NWA Flights: MSP Or Dtw?

Tue Feb 26, 2002 1:36 pm

DTW by far, has more international flights.
 
aking8488
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RE: NWA Flights: MSP Or Dtw?

Tue Feb 26, 2002 1:39 pm

Continental said Asia flights--of course DTW has more going to AMS
 
Guest

RE: NWA Flights: MSP Or Dtw?

Tue Feb 26, 2002 1:41 pm

DTW has more Asia flights also from DTW! Just go download the NW timetable to find this answer.


http://www.nwa.com/travel/timetable/


 
 
aking8488
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RE: NWA Flights: MSP Or Dtw?

Tue Feb 26, 2002 1:45 pm

You're absolutely right! Thanks
 
HlywdCatft
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RE: NWA Flights: MSP Or Dtw?

Tue Feb 26, 2002 2:01 pm

DTW has a lot more Asia flights- multiple Narita flights from DTW, all 744s. Someone from MSP said that they haven't seen a NW 744 in years, they use the 742. Besides that NW flies direct to Beijing and Shanghai from DTW also along with Osaka, Taiwan. I don't know if they resumed their Hong Hong and Seoul flights.

As for larger airport? Definitely DTW in size.

Even though NW is based in MSP, DTW is NW busiest hub and in a/c movements DTW was ranked #6 after ORD,ATL,DFW,LAX, and Phoenix
 
Guest

RE: NWA Flights: MSP Or Dtw?

Tue Feb 26, 2002 2:04 pm

Will the SEL flight ever return to DTW?
 
zeus01
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RE: NWA Flights: MSP Or Dtw?

Wed Feb 27, 2002 8:55 am

I already know DTW gets more Asia flights. NW has a NRT flight and a Osaka flight that goes on to seoul I think from MSP.

BUt can anyone prove which airport gets more atual NW traffic? No way pheonix gets more traffic than MSP, i don't think thats true. Can anyone find this with a little evidence?
 
Vctony
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RE: NWA Flights: MSP Or Dtw?

Wed Feb 27, 2002 9:24 am

DTW is NW's largest hub and therefore has more NW traffic then MSP. As for PHX getting more traffic then MSP, I believe it is highly possible. HP and WN both have large operations at PHX with WN having 190 daily departures and HP around 250. This doesn't count the Mesa air statistics nor the fact that DL, NW, AA, Alaska, United, and US Airways all have a fairly sizeable presence in PHX, moreso then in many of the other "spoke" cities that they serve. While MSP gets a lot of traffic, it is basically all NW where PHX has more of a variety.
 
BA
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RE: NWA Flights: MSP Or Dtw?

Wed Feb 27, 2002 10:05 am

Zeus01,

Phoenix (PHX) is the 5th busiest airport in the world.

Regards
"Generosity is giving more than you can, and pride is taking less than you need." - Khalil Gibran
 
azjubilee
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RE: NWA Flights: MSP Or Dtw?

Wed Feb 27, 2002 10:34 am

DTW is businer than MSp due to DTW being the largest hub.

DTW also has more asia flights. In the current schedule, nonstop flights to NRT, KIX, NGO and PEK.

There is talk that SEl will return and HKG will be launched now that Worldgateway is opened.

Steenland has also said that now they'll shift some MSP-NRT capasity to DTW.

I read an employees post on another BB that mentioned that DC10 retirement will be accelerated and MSP-NRT will go t744 with more 742s to go to Europe from DTW. Don't know how true this is though...


AZJ
 
zeus01
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RE: NWA Flights: MSP Or Dtw?

Wed Feb 27, 2002 11:54 am

Thanks AZjubliee. I didn't realize how big PHX was. I knew it was big, but i for got about WN and HP. THere is actually 2 flights a day to NRT out of MSP. One at 7:20am and one at 12:10pm. Can anyone please find website saying that DTW is larger? I hear mixed stories on here about which is bigger, but I know how people are with their "facts" are sometimes
 
azjubilee
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RE: NWA Flights: MSP Or Dtw?

Wed Feb 27, 2002 11:58 am

THe NRT flights depart MSP as follows:

flight 19 at 1210pm daily
flight 83 at 100pm sat only

not at 720am.


NW says it is the largest hub in several press releases, go to their website and look in the news section for press releases.

If you simply don't trust people here, go find the info yourself. That's what I do.

AZJ
 
Guest

RE: NWA Flights: MSP Or Dtw?

Wed Feb 27, 2002 12:01 pm

Zeus01... Why didnt you look on the NW website and download the timetable (.pdf), or goto your local airport to get a timetable... Its not that difficult... You have problems believing people anyhow. See it with your own eyes.
 
zeus01
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RE: NWA Flights: MSP Or Dtw?

Wed Feb 27, 2002 12:12 pm

sorry az, i saw on the timetable a 7:20 flight, but that was with a stop. I guess they must run a lot of people through other places on those MSP tokyo flights. I actually had tried looking, but I couldn't ever find anything about size differences, even on NWa.com. SOrry to unsettle your mood, but i wasn't trying to upset you.

Rolex01, so nice to see you again.
 
HlywdCatft
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RE: NWA Flights: MSP Or Dtw?

Wed Feb 27, 2002 1:23 pm

Go to mapquest.com and look and check the airports section. Do a zoom in aerial photo of MSP and DTW and that should prove who is bigger. Keep in mind when this mapquest picture was taken Northwest was still in the Davey. Even when Northwest was in the Davey it was a bigger hub than MSP.

If MSP was a bigger hub than DTW, then how come MSP didnt get a 1.2 billion dollar terminal built for it?
 
Guest

RE: NWA Flights: MSP Or Dtw?

Wed Feb 27, 2002 1:25 pm

Rolex01, so nice to see you again.

Just so you know, the feeling isnt mutual.
 
azjubilee
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RE: NWA Flights: MSP Or Dtw?

Wed Feb 27, 2002 2:30 pm

Ok, children no need for arguments here.

Zeus01: you haven't rustled my feathers so don't worry about it. YOu just never post anything that is factual, so rather than mislead people, I throw up the BS flag and state the facts. BTW, there are no one stop flights to NRT from MSP, look in the current timetable!! Although you could connect through SEA, SFO or LAX.

Hlywd: we're discussing the size of MSP or DTW in terms of operational size, not physical terminal size. The Worldgateway was not built because DTW is NW's largest hub. It was built because they outgrew the ancient Davey terminal built before we were all born. Another reason why MSP didn't get a 1.2 billion dollar terminal is that they're getting millions of dollars worth of building themselves. In the last 5 years or so, a new customs facility was opened, a C concourse extention was opened, new shopping area called Northstar Crossing was opened, this summer concourse B and A will open providing more gate space and jetways for all Saab and CRJ flights for the Airlink flights.

Rolex01: you go to that corner and stay
Zeus01: go to the other corner and stay

Don't make me ground you both!


AZJ
 
acidradio
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RE: NWA Flights: MSP Or Dtw?

Wed Feb 27, 2002 4:27 pm

MSP is undergoing a $3 billion renovation (as opposed to DTW's $1.2 billion terminal), so between MSP and DTW I'm sure it all evens out  Smile

DTW kicks out more flights a day most likely due to the large size of the market (Detroit being something like the 6th or 7th largest metro area in the US as opposed to Minneapolis & St. Paul being 15th in terms of population) and its proximity (closer to the more densely populated eastern United States while MSP is just plain in the middle of the Upper Midwest, not nearly as populated). People in New York or Boston or Washington trying to get to someplace in Asia are more likely to fly to DTW and hop a flight there rather than fly the extra couple hrs to MSP.
Ich haben zwei Platzspielen und ein Microphone
 
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RE: Azjubilee

Thu Feb 28, 2002 2:57 am

 Sleepy
 
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PW100
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RE: NWA Flights: MSP Or Dtw?

Thu Feb 28, 2002 5:01 am

For all of you bashing each other on whether MSP or DTW is bigger, here are the official statistics from the ACI website for the top 30 airports in the world. Mind you, these are the 2000 figures. 2001 not yet fully available.

Pax [millions]:
1 ATL 80.2
2 ORD 72.2
3 LAX 68.5
4 LHR 64.6
5 DFW 60.7
6 HND 56.4
7 FRA 49.4
8 CDG 48.2
9 SFO 41.2
10 AMS 39.6
11 DEN 38.7
12 LAS 36.9
13 SEL 36.7
14 MSP 36.7
15 PHX 35.9
16 DTW 35.5
17 IAH 35.2
18 EWR 34.2
19 MIA 33.6
20 JFK 32.8
21 MAD 32.8
22 HKG 32.7
23 LGW 32.1
24 MCO 30.8
25 STL 30.5
26 BKK 29.6
27 YYZ 28.8
28 SIN 28.6
29 SEA 28.4
30 BOS 27.4
34 LGA 25.2
35 PHL 24.9
38 CLT 23.1
39 HNL 22.7
41 CVG 22.5
47 IAD 20.0
48 SLC 19.9
49 PIT 19.8
51 BWI 19.6

Movements [x1000]:
1 ATL 916
2 ORD 908
3 DFW 838
4 PHX 637
5 LAX 561
6 DTW 555
7 MSP 523
8 CDG 518
9 MIA 517
10 LAS 515

So MSP had more pax, DTW had more flights overall. Mind you that even though MSP is adding another runway, DTW runway lay-out is superior in terms of efficiency and capacity compared to MSP. DTW could handle up 800,000 - 1,000,000 movements a year (comparable to ATL and ORD). So don't be surprised -especially now the midfield terminal is operational- to see DTW traffic soar the coming years. I think in 10 years time DTW will be much closer to the likes of ORD/ATL/DFW in terms of pax and movements, becoming a fortress hub for NW like ATL is for DL.
Immigration officer: "What's the purpose of your visit to the USA?" Spotter: "Shooting airliners with my Canon!"
 
PSU.DTW.SCE
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RE: NWA Flights: MSP Or Dtw?

Thu Feb 28, 2002 8:00 am

and DTW isn't already basically a fortress hub of NW....
 
HlywdCatft
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RE: NWA Flights: MSP Or Dtw?

Thu Feb 28, 2002 8:58 am

I find it hard to believe that Phoenix is ahead of LA, unless that is because of Sept 11 cutbacks on international flights.

With all of America West's probs, look for DTW to move back into Spot 5 again
 
MAH4546
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RE: NWA Flights: MSP Or Dtw?

Thu Feb 28, 2002 9:45 am

PHX is ahead of LAX in movements, not passengers. Also, these #s are pre-9/11.
a.
 
doug_or
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RE: NWA Flights: MSP Or Dtw?

Thu Feb 28, 2002 11:55 am

keep in mind most of LA's traffic is O&D. because of its location, while Pheonix acts as hub for AmWest and a "focus city" for WN. Both of these carriers fly a large number of narrowbodies. LA on the other hand as a large number of larger a/c, many for longhual routes, hence the high passenger to flight ratio.
When in doubt, one B pump off
 
seven_fifty7
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RE: NWA Flights: MSP Or Dtw?

Thu Feb 28, 2002 4:34 pm

I don't see why CO doesn't abandon CLE and just set up shop at DTW. CO would be right there with its larger partner NW (and KLM if it still operates out of Detroit). Not to mention that there's still room for CO's CLE-sized hub ops there.

Politically, CLE doesn't even seem airline friendly with its lack of space and high fees.
 
HlywdCatft
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RE: NWA Flights: MSP Or Dtw?

Thu Feb 28, 2002 11:13 pm

I was looking at an overhead view of DTW on Mapquest.com's airport aerial photos. There is actually room for another midfield size terminal between Runway 22L and 22R or for you old timers... the old Runway 21R and the new runway.

I'd love to see Continental huge in Detroit too. I love Continental's fleet as well as Northwests. I am not biased towards Boeing or Airbus. I'd love to see a 737NG fly over my house as well as an A320 or a 777 fly over as well as a an A330.

I don't think Continental would abandon CLE though, they invested enough in there already.

I would like to see Detroit get another carrier with some large presence for some competition here kind of like Chicago has AA and UA, Dallas has AA and Delta and Atlanta has Delta and Air Tran. Yeah Detroit has Spirit, but thats different.

Then again, Continental wouldnt really be competing with Northwest since they codeshare, so it really wouldnt make sense for Continental to move their operations to DTW. You would have to actually scale down Northwest operations if you were going to run Continental from lets say DTW-MIA on one run and then NW on the next because of the code share. The Midfield would then be mixed half with Continental tails and Northwest tails. It probably wouldnt be possible to do a Continental run from DTW-MIA and a Northwest run from DTW-MIA at the same hour if they are codesharing.

Instead of the four (not exact number) daily NW flights to Miami in the current economy, you would have to do any combination of 2 NW and 2 CO, or 3 NW and 1 CO etc.

But Continental I doubt will move. That would leave Cleveland market open and it still is a pretty good market, probably too expensive for Southwest to really build into an operation like Phoenix or Midway though
 
azjubilee
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RE: NWA Flights: MSP Or Dtw?

Fri Mar 01, 2002 2:41 am

The whole point of having a codeshare partner is to offer more selection and a wider variety of flight options. If CO were to cloe up shop in CLE, this would defeat the whole purpose. Even though CLE and DTW are only 95 miles apart, there are many destinations served from both airports exclusively. THus, making no real sense in terms of the marketing alliance to combine both hubs.

There is already talk that Worldgateway is going to be too small (already evident in the B and C concourses) so moving another airlines hub operation into DTW is not going to happen.

Interesting to see that mapquest can give a good picture of the space necessary for a whole terminal operation. There really isn't that much space between the 22's out there. There are a few buildings at the approach end of 22R but that's it. YOu can't just plant a building there and not consider taxiways and regulations regarding the distance between buildings and rwys. It's a great thought though...

AZJ
 
HlywdCatft
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RE: NWA Flights: MSP Or Dtw?

Fri Mar 01, 2002 3:08 am

Interesting to see that mapquest can give a good picture of the space necessary for a whole terminal operation. There really isn't that much space between the 22's out there. There are a few buildings at the approach end of 22R but that's it. YOu can't just plant a building there and not consider taxiways and regulations regarding the distance between buildings and rwys. It's a great thought though

Look at Mapquest.com. Yes the picture was taken some time in Summer of 2000, Runway 22R was still being built in the picture as well as McNamara Terminal. Look directly west of the McNamara terminal between the 22s and you will see enough space to support a terminal the size of at least Concourse A if not B and C. Roadways to it would not be necessary if some sort of underground high speed rail could go from the Mac to it. I am willing to bet in about 10 years or less if the economy is healthy and flying trends are on the increase like they were prior to Sept 11, they will make use of that area. Either they will use it for an expansion terminal- perhaps that International terminal like in the old plan from the early 90s where there was a seperate dedicated International terminal, or an expansion of Northwest's operations to that section. If not, they may use that section for air cargo. Keep in mind, the airport owns a TON of property SOUTH of Eureka Road too

There is already talk that Worldgateway is going to be too small (already evident in the B and C concourses)


If that problem persists in B and C, then the expansion is imminent. Remember prior to Sept 11, there was supposed to be a $270 million expansion of those concourses with like room for 20 more gates. It was cancelled, but I am willing to put money on if the economy improves and no other setbacks related to Sept 11 happen, they will bring it back.
 
azjubilee
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RE: NWA Flights: MSP Or Dtw?

Fri Mar 01, 2002 3:32 am

Oh there is no doubt that the expansion of B and C will happen. It was back burnered until the economy regains strength. NW has said Worldgateway ought to meet its need for at least the next 10 years.

Still skeptical as to another terminal between the 22s. I think mapquest can be deceiving, but I'll respect your opinion.


AZJ
 
HlywdCatft
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RE: NWA Flights: MSP Or Dtw?

Fri Mar 01, 2002 5:48 am

Lets bring it down to this. I have been between the two runways before and there appears to be a lot of space.

Granted it may not fit something the size of the Midfield terminal, but then keep in mind there would be no roadways or parking garages to take up space between the 22s since I brought up that you could only access a terminal between the 22s by underground train. Dingle Drive and the 11,500 space parking garage takes up plenty of space at the midfield and that space would not be necessary between the 22s.

If anything, you could without denying fit what is planned for the replacement of the Davey terminal in there for the other airlines easily. If Northwest ever needed to add 20 gates, they could use that section. I think you might agree with me enough on that.

Somehow however though, with all this talk in the Detroit papers about making Detroit into a giant Aerocomplex with a lot more international cargo, they might use that section for more cargo terminals instead.

Like I said, any construction probably wouldnt happen for a decade, but I wouldnt be surprised before the decade is done that there would be a proposal about what to use that land for.

DTW you must remember has plenty of room for outward expansion unlike airports like ORD, JFK, EWR, MIA or ATL. that are surrounded by freeways and large residential areas. Everything to the south of DTW is farms and are being bought out by the airport as we speak.
 
PSU.DTW.SCE
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RE: NWA Flights: MSP Or Dtw?

Fri Mar 01, 2002 8:31 am

Hlywdcatft- Yes, you're correct is stating that Metro has a ton of land, DTW is one of the few major airports that isn't landlocked by development. However, I do not see anything going into that section of the airport, especially not a pax terminal. The new terminal just opened, and they've got plans to expand B & C sometime within the next 3-5 years or so.
Plus they have the new Davey terminal which will add 29 gates. Then there is the area where the Smith terminal is with old A, B, C which will be vacant once the new Davey opens up. This area set aside for future expansion which could easily yield another 20 gates or so. Keep in mind the area of the old G ramp will now be available for development. Once the refurbished Davey is opened, the old International terminal will likely be torn completely down as there will be no need to bring charters into that facility. NW has plans for a 747 hanger in part of that area, but with the associated parking areas, there is plenty of land for development there. Plus the old terminal area have a fairly new 10,000 space parking garage which will now barely even be used. Don't forget the area off of Middlebelt by UPS & Mesaba's facilities.

There is no need to venture into the middle of the airfield. It would be a major undertaking to bring roadways into the area underneath taxiways & runways, plus utilities too. Also, adequate space must be preserved for drainage. In short, it just isn't worth the associated costs, with the available space on the perimeter of the airfield.
 
jjbiv
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RE: NWA Flights: MSP Or Dtw?

Fri Mar 01, 2002 9:35 am

Did FedEx ever get forced off the field? A few years back, NW wanted to expand its maint. hanger next door and take over our ramp. I left before anything happened, but I've always been curious. It seems like FDX has three or four facilities in the area now (only one is airside at the airport)

joe
 
zeus01
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RE: NWA Flights: MSP Or Dtw?

Fri Mar 01, 2002 10:35 am

There was a interesting article in the Star Tribune here in Minneapolis today about the Minneapolis Airport Commission and its state. Northwest had a few comments in there two about how even though they did just build a new terminal at DTW for 1.2 billion, MSP is still undergoing a 3 billion doallr expansion. MAC said even though some of it has been stopped, NWA doesn't want to halt the major 3 billion dollar part so that MSP can compete with DTW.
This was in a artivle about the on time arrivals in MSP and that it ranked 23 out of 30 from the worst, so 7 spots away from the best. The creditited this to MSP's efficient layout with a centralized entrance instead of lots of smaller ones and the use of internet check in and staff that can print boarding passes from handhelds for customers.The article aslo creditied MSP's ontime depart/arrive sucess to its effiecency.

"We have a serious line-busting technology," Peach said. Crucial to achieving good on-time performance are boarding people onto flights efficiently and then getting the planes into the air.
"We have a serious line-busting technology," Peach said. Crucial to achieving good on-time performance are boarding people onto flights efficiently and then getting the planes into the air.

http://www.startribune.com/stories/535/1706374.html
 
HlywdCatft
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RE: NWA Flights: MSP Or Dtw?

Fri Mar 01, 2002 2:41 pm

Would they tear out Concourse G in the Davey Terminal? It is only about 5 years old if that. Although true it would be kind of useless since it is only a commuter terminal with no gates, just doors to buses but still it would be a waste.

As for the Berry International Terminal, they are supposed to keep it, but knock out 2 gates so it is a 4 gate terminal and use it for charters only. If they tore it out, where would ATA and Champion go? Plus the winter flights with Allegro and Apple too.

I looked at an aerial view photo of DTW again on Mapquest. That area that you are refering to between Northline Road and Eureka where the Mesaba Hangar and UPS are offers a lot less area than the section between the two 22s. To put any kind of terminal there it would have to go in an east/west direction. Yes you could enter off of Middle Belt Road, but that location is as FAR as possible from I-275 and I-94. Another problem with that is its distance from the runways. Ideal location if Runway 27L is used, but how often is 27L used? About 5 times a year?

If you notice at DTW, the inner runways are used for take off and the two outer for landing. If from that location by the Mesaba hangar were used, aircraft would have to cross an active 21L/3R which would be very dangerous just to get to 21R/3L. In the section between the 22s it is almost ideal for take off/landing if only using the 22s. Planes would land on 22R and pull right into the gate and take off on 22L right out of the gate. It wouldnt be to difficult to taxi to the other runways for take off or landing either. Its usually crossing the landing runways which are frowned upon, hence the reason airports with 4 parallel runways ATL, LAX, DFW and DTW use the inner runways for take off and outer for landing. It is rare that the outer runways at DTW are used for take off. In all my times at DTW, I could count the times on one hand that I have seen a plane take off on Runway 21L/3R, and that was partially because runway 22L (at the time still 21R was closed for repair and that the KLM 747 couldnt take off on 21R (then 21C) and a couple of DC-10s too.

As for parking and roadways for the terminal between the 22s I already mentioned they wouldn't need roads. I think they would put in an underground rail like Denver/Atlanta both use between MacNamara and the other terminal.

Yes, in the next few years it won't be necessary to build a terminal there, but I believe it was you who said that you don't think Mac Terminal will be able to handle the capacity. After all, Davey and Smith were designed with a lot smaller capacity in mind and they figured at the time that was all that they needed. Same probably could be said about the Mac Terminal. If we keep the trend, Twenty years from now, people will be saying that the Mac is overcrowded (as long as air travel still is the way to go). Again, I wouldnt be surprised if blue prints come out around by 2010 for use for that land.

The Berry Terminal would be the logical spot for a 747 hangar since it would be right next to the DC-10 hangar, but last I heard they aren't getting rid of it. The other logical spot for a 747 hangar would be the section you mentioned by the UPS and Mesaba facilities.

I'd like to keep this debate going. This is a very interesting subject PSU.DTW.SCE I am interested in airport design and setups. I think this is a creative way for me to think of where flaws in my ideas could be and how others might argue for or against a design proposal. I think it is a great thing to discuss.
 
PSU.DTW.SCE
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RE: NWA Flights: MSP Or Dtw?

Fri Mar 01, 2002 3:31 pm

We'll continue it later, got to get up in 4 hours & catch a flight...time to check out the new DTW.....
 
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PW100
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RE: NWA Flights: MSP Or Dtw?

Sat Mar 02, 2002 6:07 am

Sorry guys if these are stupid questions, I've never been to DTW and I'm really curious about its future. I enjoy your input and thoughts! So here are some questions and some notes I had.

How often are the crosswind runways used? Any plans for a third one, north of the 27R/9L or south of the other one? I guess if the utilization of the crosswind runways is very low that any additional ones aren't really required. Just curious though how often prevailing winds prevent using the 21/3 and 22/4 runways.
When they do use the 27/9 runways, are the other runways in use as well? Do they combine?

I downloaded a construction map of DTW dated Feb 2001 from DTW website. This map looks quite accurate but did not show to what scale it was. So I did some measurements and calculations by using the published runway lengths. This learned me that the distance between the two inner parallels is about 3800 ft. This 3800 ft is sufficient to accomodate the new Midfield terminal with two large concourses. The distance between the 22/4 parallels is in my calculations about 3000ft. Now this would surely be sufficient for at least one [or even two] long linear concourses parallel to the current B/C. And indeed it would be more than natural to link them to the current concourses/terminal through some sort of underground access system. BTW I might be off by a 100 ft or so on the distances, if anyone has accurate figures, I'll stand corrected!

The new Midfield Terminal has 97 gates, which will virtually all be employed for NW hub operation [including its partners like CO, KL]. I was wondering how many gates NW did have in the old terminals? I guess NW now has considerably more gatespace, and won't be needing more for the coming 5 years.

Another question, can DTW handle three simultaneous [independent] arrival streams, do they use three runways during inbound peak? I believe that FAA requirements dictates at least 4300 ft centerline runway spacing for independent operations. However I believe, though not sure, that this requirement may be relaxed in good visual conditions and may sometimes be waived?
I think that the numbers of gates that is required for the NW hub operation would be dictated by the number of aircraft that they can get in within one bank [NW has 11 daily banks at DTW?]. So if they can only accept two inbound streams, would that be enough to sustain an additional concourse? Especially since C concourse has lots of potential to be expanded?

BTW As I read from your earlier postings in this thread, some of the old terminals will be torn down and eventually replaced by state of the art facilities. Where can I find drawings/artists impressions of the new ones?

Just some questions and thoughts. Hope you appreciate it...all the way from the otherside of the Atlantic.

PS. I have seen quite some pics of the new terminal in its contruction phase. However still waiting to see the first one of the new terminal loaded with redtails...
Immigration officer: "What's the purpose of your visit to the USA?" Spotter: "Shooting airliners with my Canon!"
 
UA_727
Posts: 155
Joined: Sun Aug 19, 2001 7:53 am

Sub-DFW For PHX

Sat Mar 02, 2002 7:44 am

Well, according to Airports Council International, as of November 1, 2001, DFW was the "5th busiest airport in the world;" PHX didn't even make the top ten. Skyharbor ranked 15th on the busiest in the world.
"AW - I'm on Board..."
 
PSU.DTW.SCE
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RE: NWA Flights: MSP Or Dtw?

Mon Mar 04, 2002 3:54 pm

Alright, I'm back for a few....

PW100: I'll try to help answer some questions about DTW:
The crosswinds 9L/27R, 9R/27L are RARELY used. Honestly, I've never seen them in operation. The only time they will use them is when when a very strong east or west wind creates a crosswind component on the main parallel runways that exceeds limits. The occurance rarely happens, and when it doesn, not for a an extended period of time. The use of the crosswinds limits airport capacity, and actually for about a year 9L/27R was closed to build the new access road from the exisiting terminal down to the new terminal.. There is no plans whosoever to built another crosswindrunway. No room north as there are terminals, hangers, parking garages in the way, no room to the south either. The use of the crosswind runways is not the optimal use of the runway configuration.
21L/3R is used exclusively for landings
21R/3L is used exclusively for takeoffs
22L/4R is used for takeoffs (all heavies), heavy landings, and landings during light traffic
22R/4L is used for landings. Yes, three arrival paths can be used into the three runways mentioned for landings under good visibility, but weather can reduce this to two.

NW doesn't have 11 banks, it is actually has 9 currently, 10 last summer, but all of different magnitudes
Departure banks approximately include 6:30-7:00a, 8:30-9:30a, 10:30-11:00a, 12:00-12:30p, 1:30-2:00p, 3:00-3:30p, 5:00-5:30pm, 7:00-7:30pm, 8:30-9:30p, 10:30-11:00p (not reinstated yet)

The old terminal had:
C 26 gates, D 13 gates, E 12 gates, F 9 gates, G-commuter
Total of 60 mainline gates, plus commuter which were boarded in busses from G.
The new terminal approx. 64 mainline gates....but the new terminal allow for much better utilization. At the old terminal, the all but 2 ARJ's had to use mainline gates, here most will use the B-gates, and there is simply more space available for a/c to manuver. Yes, there is a planned expansion onto Concourse B. The area is currently fenced in and contains portable trailers and construction equipment. They are planned to expand in this area as they already installed drainage and did not pave in the area, instead leaving it as gravel since the concourse will be in this area. NW was to proceed with this, but 9-11 put a hold on this project. It will be necessary soon though.

There is no need to even think about expanding across the runways. There is plenty of expansion room on Concourse B. They have a whole half mile plus of length to expand to paralell Concourse A.

Yes, the old terminals will be torn down. Concourses D-G are being torn down, along with the end of C soon. Yes, the end of concourse C is about 5 years old and G is not much older, but they are being torn down. They aren't practical to save. The main check-in area in the Davey terminal will stay. In the interm, all other airlines will be in the Smith terminal A, B, C. Rebuild a linear 29 gate terminal similar to the midfield terminal and linear to the roadway & runways. Once this is complete ine approx. 2006-7, the Smith terminal & A, B, C will be torn down and the space will be for future expansion.

Well, I'm tired now....I'll write my opinion of the new terminal tomorrow. I flew in there last Friday and am flying out later on Monday...I'll write more later...
 
azjubilee
Posts: 3376
Joined: Sat Apr 29, 2000 5:26 am

RE: NWA Flights: MSP Or Dtw?

Wed Mar 06, 2002 2:02 am

I was in DTW the last few days and rwys 9/27 were in use for landings due to high winds. We took off once on 22R as it doesn't cross 9/27 for the landings that were taking place. Rwy use for landing and departing is not set in stone. During a departure bank, you'll rarely see a landing on 21R or 22L, bu if it isn't busy, and they can accomodate the traffic, they'll use it for easy access to the gates.

The Davey terminal looks so sad and desolate not being used. The last things were being moved out of there with Atlas vans and demolition should occur shortly.

The new terminal is beautiful. I was so impressed, I felt like a kid in a candy store. I think though, some plants would be nice, to continue the soothing effect in the terminal. The cleaners realy need to attack the place over a few nights and give it a scrub top to bottom and then of course once that happens the regular cleaning maintenance. Buffing of the tile has to be done everynight otherwise in a few weeks it will look like a concrete runway with black skid marks on it. There also needs to be bigger and more trash cans. Since people aren't going to think for themselves and walk to an empty one to throw things away they just pile trash ontop of already over flowing garbage cans. Doesn't really solve the problem. Another thing I though was odd was the fact that when a flight is boarding, people overflow into the walkway areas, which backs things up. Either an even wider terminal building was needed or a way of lining people up is going to have to be created (because we know people aren't going to think about that for themselves). Once all the concessions open and the bugs worked out, it will be even better. Food is plentiful and will be even more so when everything is open. I ate so much while I was there trying all the new restaurants etc...

The people that complained about the signage, must have just been morons. There really isn't a need for a ton of signage as there isn't anywhere to go, but left or right once you get off a plane, There truely is plenty of info out there for navigation. The tunnel (the tunnel of love as it is beginning to be knows as at Mesaba) between a and B/C is really cool. Play in the rotunda areas by speaking loudly and only you will hear yourself... really great accoustics.

Anway, that's my quick and dirty on the terminal. Great, and will be even better.


AZJ
 
HlywdCatft
Posts: 5232
Joined: Mon Jan 29, 2001 6:21 am

RE: NWA Flights: MSP Or Dtw?

Wed Mar 06, 2002 4:29 am

Yesterday the heater was broken in the downstairs baggage area claim for the IT, it was pretty cold in the main baggage claim area too.

I was at the airport yesterday and 21L was actually being used for a couple of takeoffs, I saw two NW DC-9-30s take off in a row on 21L around 4:40pm.

When there is a strong cross wind from the west the 27s are used, but yes that only occurs about less than 10 times a year. They usually use 27L for landing and 27R for takeoff. These strong west winds usually occur while a cold front is passing through and doesn't usually prevail for more than a few hours.

Keep in mind this is before the opening of 22R that I am writing about, any referece to 21R here is about the now 22L. I have seen simultaneous use of the 21s with the 27s. Often what I saw happen during a strong westerly is that 27L was used for landing and perhaps 21R since they didn't cross each other. 21R was also used for take off as soon as the planes would take off from 21R, they would take a quick right and head west early. 21C would NOT be used for take off at all on those days. No planes would take off and turn east like under normal circumstances out of fear of interference from planes landing on 27L. Still as you could see, planes are severely tied up and delayed on those kinds of days, fortunately they are few and far between. My cousin flew in from Netherlands on KLM during one of those crosswind days, he said he circled over Flint for an hour while waiting for their clearance to land on 27L.

I have never seen 9R or 9L used for takeoffs/landings and I don't think it is ever used. We almost never get a strong directly east wind at DTW, it is usually from the Northeast like right before a big snow we sometimes get a strong east northeast wind. What happens in the case of a strong east wind is that planes will take off on 3L (old 3C) and immediately turn right using I-94 for a visual.
 
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RE: NWA Flights: MSP Or Dtw?

Tue Mar 12, 2002 12:28 pm

Azjubilee, HlywdCatft,
I echo your comments completely in the previous posts. I think I've learned more and witnessed more at DTW in the past week and a half than I have in the past couple of years. The airport has dynamically changed and I've also experienced all sorts of weather and operational challenges first hand.

The old Davey terminal is quite sad to look at. We taxied by to takeoff on 22L last Monday. Its odd to see Concourse A & B still going strong and then everything else empty. The lights were still on inside the concourses. Jetways were in all sorts of positions. Some taken down, some with sections removed, some left in the position of the last aircraft to use them, some still with their operating lights turned on. Most of the electronic gate signs were taken down already. Dumpster were placed all around the ramp and a moving truck sat next to F Concourse. A lonely light stand, a few busses, and a few bag carts sat in the middle of the G ramp. Other than that is was deserted, kind of an errie feeling.

AZJ, your comments are exactly what I thought about the new terminal, it needs a good hard cleaning top to bottom. The concourse floor is already extremely marked up and need a good buffing and waxing. I was in DEN, and their place sparkles. DTW is only two weeks old and the floor looks like its been ages since it was cleaned. The signage is fine! Its the stupid people who never looked at the map or don't know what the icon of a suitcase stands for! My gosh, I studied the map throughly before I ever went in the place, well maybe thats because I'm rather interested in this stuff. I noticed the back-up of people spilling into the main corridor, especially on 757 & Widebody flights. Still plenty of room to get by, obivously if you use the moving sidewalks. Sat night, there were many cancelled flights and stranded people in the airport. You couldn't really even tell because the place is so huge. If it was the old Davey terminal, it would've been ugly. A great place, I'll tell you that. I'm proud to tell out of towners I'm from Detroit now. Before they always mentioned the dump of a airport, now no more of that!
 
HlywdCatft
Posts: 5232
Joined: Mon Jan 29, 2001 6:21 am

RE: NWA Flights: MSP Or Dtw?

Tue Mar 12, 2002 3:44 pm

The floors look like $hit at the new terminal because the regular cleaning crew walked out within a day or two after Midfield opened due to a cutback in wages. Now all that they have are temporary service workers doing the cleaning, new ones everyday that have to be retrained, they are working for probably less than $6 an hour and you pretty much get what you pay for in that case, you aren't going to get the best workers.

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