hisham
Posts: 681
Joined: Fri Aug 20, 1999 11:32 pm

Boeing Going For The 747-400XQLR...

Tue Feb 26, 2002 4:41 pm

...Until they change their mind next week.
What the hell are all these letters for?
Here's the link.

http://www.boeing.com/commercial/747family/pf/pf_400xback.html

Hisham.
 
hkgspotter1
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RE: Boeing Going For The 747-400XQLR...

Tue Feb 26, 2002 4:50 pm

Boeing are looking very stupid these days. Talk about a desperate measure !!!
 
LJ
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RE: Boeing Going For The 747-400XQLR...

Tue Feb 26, 2002 5:07 pm

Hisham Q for quit LR for long range
 
na
Posts: 9129
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RE: Boeing Going For The 747-400XQLR...

Tue Feb 26, 2002 6:06 pm

From Boeings website:

-Superior economics -- The lowest seat-mile, trip and freighter ton-mile costs as well as more revenue-generating cargo capacity.

-Better performing airplanes -- More range, new engines, light weight, lower fuel burn, fastest speed and lower noise.

If Boeing is serious this might well be a reason for another uplift in 747 sales, some data like the lowest seat-mile-cost are obviously better than the 777s figures.
 
Boeing Nut
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RE: Boeing Going For The 747-400XQLR...

Tue Feb 26, 2002 6:42 pm

HKgspotter,

I have to disagree with you here. I know that you are not the biggest Boeing fan, but I hardly think Boeing is desparate. Boeing is listening to it's customers. There evidently is a strong interest in the 744XQLR. Customers will now be able to take 744's into quiet sensitive airports where they cannot now. This will allow carriers to utilize thier 744's where and when they haven't been able to before. More markets, more opportunities, more revenue. And with even more range, all new city pairs can be achieved.

Regards
I'm not a real aeronautical engineer, I just play one on Airliners.net.
 
na
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RE: Boeing Going For The 747-400XQLR...

Tue Feb 26, 2002 7:03 pm

London Heathrow will be the first mega-airport with far stricter noise regulations in a few years from now (exact year I don´t know, but around 2005 timeframe). 747 Classics, DC-10s, 737-200s and a lot of other aircraft will be banned then.
These regulations will also be taken up by a lot of other airports like Schiphol and Frankfurt/Main and most likely be increased again in the next decade. Then the original 744 might get some problems too. But thats 10 years from now or later.
I bet most 744s from 2004 on will be of this new quiet type. Its a clever evolution that easily can be incorporated in current fleets.
 
hkgspotter1
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RE: Boeing Going For The 747-400XQLR...

Tue Feb 26, 2002 7:15 pm

Boeing Nut,

First thing I would like to explain is I LOVE aircraft, all of them, well not the shorts 330/360 !!!

What I mean is they are talking about all these versions of the 777 and 747 but they keep flopping. Look at the 772LR, EVA are the only customer and now Boeing have delayed the project, now it looks like Airbus may pick up the order and get some more A345's on the books.

The 747-400LR has 3 orders from QF and 4-5 from AF, thats is. As great as the 747 is... ITS OLD.

Hope you see my point and understand that this is not a anti Boeing thing.

 
Ruscoe
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RE: Boeing Going For The 747-400XQLR...

Tue Feb 26, 2002 7:35 pm

The real advantage here is that Boeing have been able in conjuction with RR to develop technology to signifigantly reduce noise without increasing weight.

This is something Airbus failed to do and required a larger fan on the A380, to meet LHR future standards, which added to the weight problems of the A380 you are all aware of.

Ruscoe
 
LJ
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RE: Boeing Going For The 747-400XQLR...

Tue Feb 26, 2002 7:40 pm

AMS already banned new flights with the DC-10, B747 Classic and the B737-200. Moreover, if I'm correct the more noise you make te more you've to apy at AMS
 
Boeing Nut
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RE: Boeing Going For The 747-400XQLR...

Tue Feb 26, 2002 8:09 pm

HKgspotter,

Gotta LOL at your Shorts 330/360 remarks as I am in total agreement with you there!!  Nuts Also, know that I won't debate your love of airliners. So, I do understand your point. True, the 777LR and 744LR haven't been barn burners. I would have to agree with you that Boeing's timing with those two weren't the best. I have to think the 744LR will die when Qantas gets thier orders delivered. However, I think airlines were just waiting for the 744XQLR to arrive. There is a place for this airplane and I think there will be orders for it.

I think we have another thing in common: we both love the "other" companies aircraft, we just question the "other" companies decision making.

But I will end this post with one light hearted disagreement. As far as the "old" statement; fine wine gets better with age, and so does the 747.  Big thumbs up

Regards

I'm not a real aeronautical engineer, I just play one on Airliners.net.
 
hkgspotter1
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RE: Boeing Going For The 747-400XQLR...

Tue Feb 26, 2002 9:37 pm

Dont tell NW that !!. They might want to keep those rust bucket 742's for another ten years !.
 
racko
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RE: Boeing Going For The 747-400XQLR...

Tue Feb 26, 2002 10:25 pm

oh my god, why can't they just call it 747-500 ?? XQLR sounds stupid.
 
Joni
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RE: Boeing Going For The 747-400XQLR...

Tue Feb 26, 2002 11:02 pm


Boeing nut,

The customers wouldn't be able to fly "their 744s" to the more noise-restricted airports, they'd have to buy new ones.

And sure, (some) wines get better with age but this doesn't in general apply to more technical products like airplanes, cars, computers etc.

This new product may sell, but perhaps not hundreds of examples. After all, there's the 773, 346 and 388 that all angle into its turf from different directions.

 
Boeing Nut
Posts: 5078
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RE: Boeing Going For The 747-400XQLR...

Tue Feb 26, 2002 11:43 pm

Joni,

Don't take everything so seriously. In case you missed it, the new airplane is a new variant of the 747-400. So they would be flying 744's into noise sensitive airports.

You think technical products don't get better with age. You mean to tell me the 741 is a superior aircraft to the 744? Please.......

The last point you made I agree with.
I'm not a real aeronautical engineer, I just play one on Airliners.net.
 
Mr.BA
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RE: Boeing Going For The 747-400XQLR...

Wed Feb 27, 2002 12:25 am

I have read somewhere that Boeing claims that a lot of 747 customers are seriously interested in the new B747s hence the decision to go ahead with it. Can anyone confirm this? I believe they won't go for a larger aircraft when the B777LR can't even sell?

Maybe the B744ER is the previous B743 and the B744XQLR is the new B744 Big grin
Boeing747 万岁!
 
boeingnut
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RE: Boeing Going For The 747-400XQLR...

Wed Feb 27, 2002 12:31 am

This new 744 (and the original 744) have only one thing in common with the original 747-100, and that is the same general shape of the airframe. The original 744 and this new 744 are totally different inside and out. New engines, new flight decks, new wiring, new wing, you name it. There are very few parts that remained the same between the classic 747s and the new series of 744s. Its like saying that today's Ford Mustang is an old car. The company kept updating it, but yes, the classic looks like the new one, heck, its got 2 doors, a windshield, and four tires! Heck, Ford has been pushing the same car on us for 3 decades! Technology advances, and just because Boeing likes the general shape of the original 741 doesnt make it old!

-The other Boeingnut
Excuse me, but what does God need with a starship?
 
Mr.BA
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RE: Boeing Going For The 747-400XQLR...

Wed Feb 27, 2002 12:46 am

I really love the B747s and really hate to agree with Hkgspotty, it is old. I don't know, but I can't think of any possibility the B747 will survive but I really hope it will...  Sad Yes, it is old.

PS/ Boeing site says that this B747 will get raked wingtips like the B764 do does the B773ER/B772LR...

alvin

Long live the 747!
Boeing747 万岁!
 
DIA
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RE: Boeing Going For The 747-400XQLR...

Wed Feb 27, 2002 1:02 am

The picture of the 747-400XQLR looks as if the RR engines are larger than the current engine offerings. . .is this true?
Ding! You are now free to keep supporting Frontier.
 
User avatar
RayChuang
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RE: Boeing Going For The 747-400XQLR...

Wed Feb 27, 2002 1:32 am

I think Boeing is offering this plane because of the very successful test results when they worked with Rolls-Royce on test project using two Trent 895 engines installed in a new engine nacelle design that had chevron (e.g., saw-toothed) edges on the exhaust side of the nacelle.

I think what the 747-400XQLR entails is essentially a 747-400 Longer-Range with raked wingtips, more fuel capacity and the new quiet engine nacelle. This means meeting the very strict QC2 standard set by LHR and also offering almost exactly 8,000 nautical miles range, which means JFK-HKG flights on a full pax/cargo load year-round.
 
SInGAPORE_AIR
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RE: Boeing Going For The 747-400XQLR...

Wed Feb 27, 2002 1:34 am

It looks very nice.

Though who gives a damn about quietness? Current 744s can conform to LHR's tough rules so why need spend more? The LR is to be applauded though, but I suppose take away the noise reduction you just get a 744LR don't you?

Oh well, it should be interesting. CNN ASIA is saying it's targeting Asian customers. What is the range? SIN - LAX?
Anyone can fly, only the best Soar.
 
Alaskaairlines
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RE: Boeing Going For The 747-400XQLR...

Wed Feb 27, 2002 3:35 am

Boeing is trying to keep in this industry, thats why this new 747 is porposed. Airbus is growing and Boeing sees that.
 Smile/happy/getting dizzy
-Dmitry
 
Guest

RE: Boeingnut

Wed Feb 27, 2002 3:39 am

This new 744 (and the original 744) have only one thing in common with the original 747-100, and that is the same general shape of the airframe. The original 744 and this new 744 are totally different inside and out. New engines, new flight decks, new wiring, new wing, you name it.

Wishful thinking, Boeingnut!  Big thumbs up

The 744X QLR keeps the same wings as the 741 (albeit with new flaps, fairings & wingtips) . As such, it’s not a radical departure from the 741 wing design like the 737 NG was.
No supercritical wings (so basically, the design is still vintage 60s ! ) nor fly by wire as with the 777. You are a dream come true for Boeing spin-doctors !  Wink/being sarcastic

Don’t get me wrong though, it could be enough of an upgrade to generate new sales but without a brand new wing, I’m afraid Boeing won’t be able to substantially increase the performance of the 747 to effectively compete with the A346/A380.

My $ 0.02 uninformed guess,

Stefan
 
rj777
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RE: Boeing Going For The 747-400XQLR...

Wed Feb 27, 2002 3:46 am

Correct me if I'm wrong, but did I see 764 style wingtips? The picture wasn't that good.
 
BlatantEcho
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RE: Boeing Going For The 747-400XQLR...

Wed Feb 27, 2002 4:02 am

Regardless of whether I think this 747 will be a perfect niche aircraft or not, you have to admit, that is EASILY the best looking 747 ever. The new engines, raked wingtips, man o man, sexy styling. (I bet they worked on that too......  Big grin )

If you believe Airbus that that A380 is 100% crucial to aviation, you will also see a need for a plane smack dab in the 747s range. So why not make one for little R/D, that is more efficent, greater range, cleaner, and quieter? Just a logical progression, espcially if airlines are asking for it.

BlatantEcho
They're not handing trophies out today
 
M27
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RE: Boeing Going For The 747-400XQLR...

Wed Feb 27, 2002 5:52 am

9Q-CLI

I believe the QLR is to incorparate a trailing edge wedge to its wings also. It may be an old basic design, but it still flies faster than any Boeing or Airbus aircraft currently in production, and I believe that a full 747-400 still has the best seat mile cost of any currently available aircraft.

With the exception of the a340-500 and 772-200LR (if produced) it will certainly have the longest range of any other aircraft, and so, with the exception of the A380 possibly having better seat mile costs, please tell me what else it needs in terms of being modern. Please don't list fly by wire, cause with todays autopilots and flight mangement systems, fly by wire is not that big of a deal.

I see the QLR as a Boeing competitor to the A340-500 and 600 for those airlines that like 4 engines on the wings. Of course it will also compete with the 777-300ER by default. In order to compete effectively with the "modern" aircraft, tell me how a supercritical wing would do anything more than add cost. It certainly looks as good as any of the "modern" aircraft, though of no value to operation.

I do see it having a rough time in obtaining customers, not because its an old design, but because most of the airlines that would purchase this are already commited to the A340-5&6, 777-300 and A380.
Regards
 
cwapilot
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RE: Boeing Going For The 747-400XQLR...

Wed Feb 27, 2002 6:00 am

If we go with the "744 is old" logic, and apply it universally, then it follows that the A340-500/-600 are also very old. After all, it is the same fuselage as the A310/300, but with different wings, engines, wiring....etc. So, Airbus can do it and call it an entirely new plane, but Boeing does it, and it's an old relic? Come on! Get yourselves straight!
Or, at the very least, be consistent with your bashing. The 744 is no more an old relic than the A340NGs.
Southside Irish...our two teams are the White Sox and whoever plays the Cubs!
 
Sinlock
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RE: Boeing Going For The 747-400XQLR...

Wed Feb 27, 2002 6:36 am

I know Boeings site pretty well. But I cant find the picture that you guys are refering too for the XQLR.
How do I get to it from the link at the top.


Also, I agree with Racko. Boeing really needs to bite the bullet and name the thing -500.
But they might be waiting to add that Upper Sleeper Deck thing. Then we will have the.

Boeing 747-400X, Q, LR, USD.

I love ALL airplanes even the 330/360. But even I think that the sleeper deck is a bit much.
 
prebennorholm
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RE: Boeing Going For The 747-400XQLR...

Wed Feb 27, 2002 6:37 am

Well, in 2004 (maybe), 15 years after the 747-400 this slight face-lift is a natural evolution.

New engine subtypes - great, they are now available from the engine manufacturers. Engine improvements have happened over 15 years.

TFT displays in the cockpit instead of CRT tubes - why not, after all they have been invented now.

New cabin look, yes, seasoned pax must see that this is a new plane.

The most interesting issue is that somehow Boeing has managed to stretch that 35 years old wing design a further 14 feet! (Over the standard 744). It's a whopping 30 feet more than 741/742/743!!! And that stretch has been gained with no substantial weight increase!

They must plan to switch to new and much stronger materials for the wing structure.

I'm pretty sure that a substantial part of the reduced noise footprint is gained due to the increased wing span. It will climb steeper at a lower airspeed on the same power, or do the same climb profile slower at lower airspeed and lower power setting. It will probably also get rid of the the 744 problem. At MTOW the 744 can normally not clean up the wing at the 250 kts. speed limit below 10,000 feet.

It will be interesting to see if these new qualities can give the grand old lady a new life in her senior years. It will be a sad day when Boeing can no longer supply a four engined airliner.

Regards, Preben Norholm
Always keep your number of landings equal to your number of take-offs
 
aamd11
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RE: Boeing Going For The 747-400XQLR...

Wed Feb 27, 2002 6:46 am

For those who cant find the photo at boeing, try this link:

http://www.boeingmedia.com/boeingmedia/images/one.cfm?image_id=4100&release=t

AA MD11
 
Hamlet69
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RE: Boeing Going For The 747-400XQLR...

Wed Feb 27, 2002 8:19 am

A large picture can be found here:

http://www.boeing.com/news/feature/aa2002/gallery/747400xqlr.html

Hamlet69
Honor the warriors, not the war.
 
da man
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RE: Boeing Going For The 747-400XQLR...

Wed Feb 27, 2002 8:37 am

Why don't they just call it the B747-500?
da man
War Eagle!
 
b757300
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RE: Boeing Going For The 747-400XQLR...

Wed Feb 27, 2002 10:02 am

Right now, it is still a "concept" aircraft. Once it goes into production, it will probably get a different designation.
"There is no victory at bargain basement prices."
 
bunga777
Posts: 45
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RE: Boeing Going For The 747-400XQLR...

Wed Feb 27, 2002 2:41 pm

What is a trailing edge wedge? Are there pictures of it? What are the advantages, function, etc?
 
9V-SVA
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RE: Boeing Going For The 747-400XQLR...

Wed Feb 27, 2002 2:52 pm

The range of the B747-400XQLR is around 14,775 kilometers, which means, SIN-LAX or DEN can be accomplished.

I do believe Boeing will be marketing this aggressively at Asian Aerospace 2002, which is currently on. I will be there on Saturday and I might ask them some questions about it.

9V-SVA
9V-SVA | B772ER
 
The Coachman
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RE: Boeing Going For The 747-400XQLR...

Wed Feb 27, 2002 3:35 pm

BTW, QF ordered 6 x B747-400LR aircraft, not 3, as stated by Hkgspotter.
M88, 722, 732, 733, 734, 73G, 73H, 742, 743, 744, 752, 762, 763, 772, 773, 77W, 320, 332, 333, 345, 388, DH8, SF3 - want
 
Guest

RE: Boeingnut- M27

Thu Feb 28, 2002 5:29 am

Boeingnut,

Sorry for my sarcastic smart-assed post! I had a bad day yesterday!
I’m a nice guy otherwise.  Innocent


M27

IMHO, as with the 737NG, a brand new supercritical wing design would further improve the performance of the 747, allowing it to fly either higher or farther or with even lower operating costs than the proposed 747XQLR.
One example: as with the “old”737, the 747 is fitted with very complex & heavy triple slotted flaps. In contrast, the supercritical wing of the 737 NG enabled Boeing to fit the aircraft with simpler & lighter double slotted flaps while substantially improving the aerodynamic efficiency of the wing. As a result, the 737NG is to some extend outperforming the A320 whereas the “old” 737 was far behind.
Additionally, DFBW could enable Boeing to somewhat reduce the inherent stability of the aircraft & consequently reduce the aerodynamic drag. DFBW could also allow a complete cross qualification with the 777, reducing training costs.
True, a brand new wing & DFBW would be costly to develop & obviously Boeing has carefully weighted the costs & benefits and decided against it this time.
What prompted my comment was that the incremental steps approach taken by Boeing with the 744X QLR might not IMHO be good enough to compete with the A346/A380 in the long run.
But again, I don't work for Boeing, I don't know what their strategy is ;this is pure speculation & I’m not really qualified to comment on those issues anyway.

Regards,

Stefan
 
pikachu
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RE: Boeing Going For The 747-400XQLR...

Thu Feb 28, 2002 5:50 am

Why is Boeing making a bigger airplane after they claimed that the future of air travel is in smaller airplanes going faster? (ie. bad mouth the 380 and talk up the Sonic Cruiser only to follow the lead of Airbus and make a 380 like airplane)
 
sdate747
Posts: 259
Joined: Sun Oct 29, 2000 4:55 pm

RE: Boeing Going For The 747-400XQLR...

Thu Feb 28, 2002 5:51 am

2 observations:

I know that NWA begins delivery on new A330's starting next year to replace their current fleet of near 25. So by the time they are done with a complete flush, it will be around the time that AMS noise regulations go into place. In that case is KLM going to ditch their MD-11's or what few there remain?

Second, Boeing is not derperate. I have noticed that a lot of people think that with the cancellation of the 747X and the possibility of a sonic cruiser still "up in the air" , boeing is in decline. Airbus is doing great, the 340-600 is set to launch, the 330 is selling well and the 380 is going to make a big splash when it arrives. But keep in mind that boeing is still the market leader. They still make the 737 and the 777 - and those are 2 big fat cash cows. So don't underestimate Boeing so quickly. Many airlines still loyally purchase Boeing aircraft and by my estimation will continue to do so. This QRLX business has a weird name but the idea is simple. They are making a few basic upgrades that will add range, payload capacity and reduce noise. Nothing wrong with any of those.

Boeing had always stressed that they will make tweaks to the fine 747-400 platform rather than commiting to a superjumbo platform that would require billions in investment. Boeing is making wise moves here, adding a few feathres here and there is not not a desperate cry for help or attention. Its just smart business.
 
Boeing Nut
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RE: Boeing Going For The 747-400XQLR...

Thu Feb 28, 2002 7:21 am

Sdate747,

Very well said.
I'm not a real aeronautical engineer, I just play one on Airliners.net.
 
Mr.BA
Posts: 3310
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RE: Boeing Going For The 747-400XQLR...

Thu Feb 28, 2002 7:33 am

I have a feeling that Boeing just developed all these just wanting to keep the great B747 alive, but I can't see any high possibility anyone would order it. Just my 2cents, we'll see. But I hope it would be sucessful.

Long live the 747

alvin
Boeing747 万岁!
 
keesje
Posts: 8599
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RE: Boeing Going For The 747-400XQLR...

Thu Feb 28, 2002 7:43 am

Anyway I don´t think this Boeing plans were very Unpredictable ..

 Smile/happy/getting dizzy

http://www.airliners.net/discussions/general_aviation/read.main/745115/6/

 Smile/happy/getting dizzy

keesje
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
Guest

RE: Cwapilot

Thu Feb 28, 2002 8:54 am

I have to agree with Cwapilot ..... the A340/330 have the same basic fuselage as the A300.... first flew in October 1972, May 1969 Launch of the A300 programme

Cwapilot wrote:

If we go with the "744 is old" logic, and apply it universally, then it follows that the A340-500/-600 are also very old. After all, it is the same fuselage as the A310/300, but with different wings, engines, wiring....etc. So, Airbus can do it and call it an entirely new plane, but Boeing does it, and it's an old relic? Come on! Get yourselves straight! Or, at the very least, be consistent with your bashing. The 744 is no more an old relic than the A340NGs.
 
RJ_Delta
Posts: 1391
Joined: Sun Oct 22, 2000 4:17 am

RE: Boeing Going For The 747-400XQLR...

Thu Feb 28, 2002 9:36 am

Wow what a surprise from Boeing ! Well I hope that Boeing doesn't be wrong in this important decision. For me I hope that Boeing develope the Boeing 747-400XQLR and many airline buy this aircraft.

RJ_Delta.
 
RJ_Delta
Posts: 1391
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RE: Boeing Going For The 747-400XQLR...

Thu Feb 28, 2002 9:50 am

I saw a photo of the new Boeing 747-400XQLR and it has winglets like the Boeing 767-400ER no the typical winglets like the 744 and A330/340.

RJ_Delta.
 
milemaster
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RE: Boeing Going For The 747-400XQLR...

Thu Feb 28, 2002 2:58 pm

Perhaps DFW / SYD is now possible?
 
Joni
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RE: Boeing Going For The 747-400XQLR...

Thu Feb 28, 2002 6:40 pm


Sdate747,

Boeing is "the market leader" in terms of deliveries this and the next few years. However, Airbus has a larger backlog and the last 2 out of 3 years has secured more net orders than Boeing.

I'd say the market is split more or less evenly between the vendors at this moment.
 
na
Posts: 9129
Joined: Sun Dec 12, 1999 3:52 am

RE: Boeing Going For The 747-400XQLR...

Thu Feb 28, 2002 7:57 pm

What Boeing does is clever for the moment. It would be stupid to come up with a A380 competitor right now. And it would be stupid to leave the 744 as it is for 12 years by now. They´ll wait until the mighty Airbus is flying - will anlayse its shortfalls - and then start to construct a airplane that might be the successor of the 747 as well as a one-to-one-competitor to the A380.
Its true that the market requires something in size between the A380 and the A346/B773. Boeing said already more than once that they have seriously interested airlines which might order this new 747 version.
 
DeanBNE
Posts: 246
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RE: Boeing Going For The 747-400XQLR...

Fri Mar 01, 2002 1:14 am

The 744 is no more an old relic than the A340NGs.

Keep dreaming ...

I recall Cathay maintaintence personnel stating that they were very pleased with their A330's wings. It was simple and easy to work with compared with their 747s.

the A340/330 have the same basic fuselage as the A300

If you are talking about the fuselage cross-section then the above is right. Why change it? It has proven to be very versatile. Obviously lengths have changed and one would assume that so too, are the alloys that the fuselage is made from.