SUNCTRY738
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Re: DL May Push C-Series Order to AM Avoiding Trade Duty

Tue Dec 05, 2017 6:17 pm

I think the manner in which Boeing handled this entire issue around Delta's C-series order will go down as one of Boeing's biggest blunders ever. Their big Mexican customer Aeromexico ends up a C-series customer and their main rival Airbus ends up the C-series owner. And Delta ends up with all of their C-series order eventually with no tariffs and ends up ordering more along with many more Airbus aircraft. Wow, what a series of blunders by Boeing. The only way Boeing saves any face in this is by giving Delta some screaming new order deals which Delta will gladly take.
 
ocracoke
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Re: DL May Push C-Series Order to AM Avoiding Trade Duty

Tue Dec 05, 2017 6:26 pm

jetmatt777 wrote:
Is there a legal loophole to doing the final assembly in the USA? For example ferry the aircraft to Mobile from Canada in a mostly complete state, but installing the final part in Mobile? Say the installation of the exit signs?

How does that work and what constitues a complete product?


Mercedes does this today to get around the Chicken Tax.

Their Sprinter vans are completely built in Germany, then partially taken apart, the pieces put on the boat, shipped to South Carolina, and then reassembled. Then they slap a MB, Dodge, or Freightliner label on the finished "made in South Carolina" product, and pay no import tariffs that the US government had slapped on imported vans.

I don't know how BBD could use the Chicken Tax workaround to their advantage. It would be a lot more complicated to build a plane, take it apart, rail it to Alabama, then reassemble it there. An engineer would have to tell us how feasible that might be, but the loophole is there.

Or maybe not even rail it, as both Montreal and Mobile are on bodies of water. Maybe build the plane, take off the wheels, engines, and vertical stabilizer, put it on a boat like MB does, then ship it to Alabama and reassemble it.
 
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scbriml
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Re: Aeromexico eyes Delta's CSeries jet order

Tue Dec 05, 2017 6:40 pm

Varsity1 wrote:
It's asking to get hit with some huge regulatory actions. Reminds me of what banks though was clever in the 2010-2012 range.


Why? Please help me understand how DL is guilty of anything if they don't import items into the US (and don't operate them) that are subject to a tariff? That's just crazy talk. :crazy:
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Planesmart
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Re: DL May Push C-Series Order to AM Avoiding Trade Duty

Tue Dec 05, 2017 7:06 pm

Three elements - legality of tariff, amount of tariff, and application of tariff, all of which are under the closest scrutiny.

The Canadian Government, manufacturer and customer want full retraction. These efforts are operating parallel to mitigation.

Boeing of course wants the order cancelled, and as importantly, to view commercially sensitive information, plus is presumably responding to lobbying from the remaining members of the US3.

For a company that enjoys global sales, largely unhindered by difficult questions and financial penalties (considered 'greater good' of international trade facilitated by commercial aviation), can't be good for long-term business, or to be seen aligned to a certain world leader.

And irrespective of partial Airbus ownership, it must be creating a world of interest for the product. Wonder who has made an offer to help out Delta?
 
777Mech
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Re: DL May Push C-Series Order to AM Avoiding Trade Duty

Tue Dec 05, 2017 8:50 pm

enilria wrote:
Wow. Well, doesn't solve the DL fleet need.

Aeromexico (AEROMEX.MX) has held preliminary talks to take some Bombardier (BBDb.TO) CSeries jets orders from Delta Air Lines Inc (DAL.N), which owns a stake in the Mexican carrier, to avoid possible U.S. trade duties levied on the planes, two sources familiar with the matter said.

Mexico's largest carrier, 49-percent owned by Delta, is considering taking an unknown number of the 75 CSeries planes ordered by Delta in 2016, one of the sources said. Delta's CSeries deliveries, scheduled to begin in spring 2018, face a possible 300 percent U.S. duty stemming from a trade dispute with Boeing Co (BA.N).


https://finance.yahoo.com/news/aeromexi ... 12124.html


To add fuel to the fire, I'm hearing the testbed CS300 will be in ATL on the 11th..
 
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LockheedBBD
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Re: DL May Push C-Series Order to AM Avoiding Trade Duty

Tue Dec 05, 2017 9:18 pm

The Embraer E2 has also made a visit to AeroMexico today: https://twitter.com/flyAPM/status/938091622637633536
 
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EMBSPBR
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Re: DL May Push C-Series Order to AM Avoiding Trade Duty

Wed Dec 06, 2017 1:05 am

many321 wrote:
In addition, Embraer should be worried since AMs regional line is all Ejets. If AM sees the capabilities C100 and helps them compete, then you can pretty much guess what happens next.


Not really.

LockheedBBD wrote:
The Embraer E2 has also made a visit to AeroMexico today: https://twitter.com/flyAPM/status/938091622637633536


Source: https://www.reuters.com/article/us-boei ... SKBN1DY2NU

Extract:
"Aeromexico is now reviewing its fleet, a third source said, which is composed of Boeing and Brazil’s Embraer SA (EMBR3.SA) jets. The carrier received a presentation about the 110-to-130 seat CSeries last week, and is expected to receive another from Bombardier’s Brazilian rival, the source said.
Sources spoke on condition of anonymity as the talks are confidential. They cautioned that no final decision has been made and Aeromexico could still buy planes from Embraer.
Embraer and Bombardier both declined to comment."
 
EddieDude
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Re: DL May Push C-Series Order to AM Avoiding Trade Duty

Wed Dec 06, 2017 1:37 am

The C-Series would be a great replacement for AM's 737-700s and E-190s (perhaps even for some E-170s, as AM has been slowly upsizing its Connect fleet). The only disadvantage that I see is that AM has worked very hard to reduce the number of aircraft type to two for mainline: 737NG (which soon will transition into the MAX), and the Dreamliner. Their commuter fleet (Connect) is all Embraer. This move would add a completely new type, creating the need for more expenditures in training, spare parts, maintenance, etc.

In any case, these are very interesting developments. Let's see what happens.
Upcoming AM MEX-LAX 73H, VA LAX-MEL 77W.
 
IPFreely
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Re: DL May Push C-Series Order to AM Avoiding Trade Duty

Wed Dec 06, 2017 5:58 am

It looks like Delta has about 35 routes between the US and Mexico that they fly with their own equipment, including about 20 seasonal routes. A possible solution is Aeromexico taking some of Delta's C-Series order and using them to operate all of the flights between the US and Mexico that Delta is operating today. That frees up the planes Delta is flying to and from Mexico to fly the domestic routes that would have gotten C-Series planes.
 
bmacleod
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Re: DL May Push C-Series Order to AM Avoiding Trade Duty

Wed Dec 06, 2017 3:55 pm

ExMilitaryEng wrote:
For a Mobile CSeries FAL, worst case would be that only Canadian parts could be hit by duties.

At least 50% of the CSeries is US sourced. Then the wings + part of the fuselage are from Belfast. (+ Some from China)

Not sure what's left, made in Canada, (the cockpit? The engines?) that would be taxable.


Cockpit of C-Series built in Quebec. Engines are built at United Technologies in Hartford, CT.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombardier_CSeries#Suppliers
"What good are wings without the courage to fly?" - Atticus
 
LAXtoATL
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Re: DL May Push C-Series Order to AM Avoiding Trade Duty

Wed Dec 06, 2017 4:00 pm

IPFreely wrote:
It looks like Delta has about 35 routes between the US and Mexico that they fly with their own equipment, including about 20 seasonal routes. A possible solution is Aeromexico taking some of Delta's C-Series order and using them to operate all of the flights between the US and Mexico that Delta is operating today. That frees up the planes Delta is flying to and from Mexico to fly the domestic routes that would have gotten C-Series planes.


DALPA is not going for that!
 
LAXtoATL
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Re: DL May Push C-Series Order to AM Avoiding Trade Duty

Wed Dec 06, 2017 4:06 pm

MaksFly wrote:
berari wrote:
Could Aeromexico take delivery from Bombardier, but DL buys the aircraft off of them? Shady yes, but perfectly legal.


This is essentially a "sale-leaseback"....

Delta sells their plane rights to AM, and then AM leases them back to Delta.

Depending on how the trade penalty is structured, they may be able to buy it back and avoid the tariff completely. ie, any lookback periods or effective sales. etc.


Obviously this would get into some serious legal grey areas, but while something like this might work with a 3rd party because Delta owns 49% of AM they would essentially be buying any selling to themseleves and I am almost certain this would not help them get around any tarrifs.
 
ExMilitaryEng
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Re: DL May Push C-Series Order to AM Avoiding Trade Duty

Wed Dec 06, 2017 5:11 pm

bmacleod wrote:
Cockpit of C-Series built in Quebec. Engines are built at United Technologies in Hartford, CT https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombardier_CSeries#Suppliers

In Mirabel, PWC performs some kind of (minimal) final assembly of the engines sub-assemblies that comes from PW in Hartford.

Not sure what kind of duties would apply to that work performed in Mirabel.
 
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northstardc4m
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Re: DL May Push C-Series Order to AM Avoiding Trade Duty

Wed Dec 06, 2017 5:22 pm

ExMilitaryEng wrote:
bmacleod wrote:
Cockpit of C-Series built in Quebec. Engines are built at United Technologies in Hartford, CT https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombardier_CSeries#Suppliers

In Mirabel, PWC performs some kind of (minimal) final assembly of the engines sub-assemblies that comes from PW in Hartford.

Not sure what kind of duties would apply to that work performed in Mirabel.


Mostly its attaching the LP fan and shaft to the gearbox and attaching all the accessories. The accessories could be done in Mobile. I'm not sure about the fan mating... if it's for transportation reasons or something else, but as they are shipping engines to Europe and Brazil with the fans attached it can probably be done in CT.
Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety.
 
iamlucky13
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Re: DL May Push C-Series Order to AM Avoiding Trade Duty

Wed Dec 06, 2017 6:27 pm

northstardc4m wrote:
ExMilitaryEng wrote:
Not sure what kind of duties would apply to that work performed in Mirabel.


Mostly its attaching the LP fan and shaft to the gearbox and attaching all the accessories. The accessories could be done in Mobile. I'm not sure about the fan mating... if it's for transportation reasons or something else, but as they are shipping engines to Europe and Brazil with the fans attached it can probably be done in CT.


I'm sure it's not a transport issue. I see much larger engines than the PW1500G on flatbeds going down the freeway into Boeing's Everett factory under fitted tarps. I think that includes the GENx, which would need an oversize load permit, but I don't think big enough to need pilot cars (I don't recall noticing any). At an absolute minimum, the CF6's for FedEx definitely travel this way, fan attached.

LAXtoATL wrote:
Obviously this would get into some serious legal grey areas, but while something like this might work with a 3rd party because Delta owns 49% of AM they would essentially be buying any selling to themseleves and I am almost certain this would not help them get around any tarrifs.


washingtonflyer, who as far as I can tell is an actual trade attorney, has pointed out that the idea of circumventing trade laws is far from new, and there are provisions and precedents for identifying and further penalizing circumvention like this.

My understanding is the issue arises not if Delta buys the CSeries via an international partner, but once they are imported. Aeromexico operating them on flights between the US and Mexico would not be importing, but since foreign airlines can not operate flights that originate and end in the US, they would have to be possessed by Delta or another domestic partner, which means they are being imported (in addition to the latter running into scope issues). That covers leasing, too.
 
Andre3K
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Re: DL May Push C-Series Order to AM Avoiding Trade Duty

Wed Dec 06, 2017 11:19 pm

Super80Fan wrote:
Great job Boeing, still screwing the consumer over. Now instead of flying in a comfortable C-Series on the 2 side I now have to suffer a 737 ride where everyone is cramped and feels tighter due to the 1960's design.



Why are you blaming Boeing? They aren't the ones who shove in as many seats as possible. Name one Boeing aircraft that was designed SPECIFICALLY to be 100% cramped cattle class.
 
ExMilitaryEng
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Re: DL May Push C-Series Order to AM Avoiding Trade Duty

Wed Dec 06, 2017 11:45 pm

Andre3K wrote:
Super80Fan wrote:
Great job Boeing, still screwing the consumer over. Now instead of flying in a comfortable C-Series on the 2 side I now have to suffer a 737 ride where everyone is cramped and feels tighter due to 60's design.
Why are you blaming Boeing? They aren't the ones who shove in as many seats as possible.

He's talking about the 737 smaller fuselage width, which makes the economy seats narrower than those on the CSeries (and also the A320s).

The carriers control the pitch.

So with an equal pitch (and equal quality seats), the CSeries economy seats are way more comfortable than those on the 737s.

Furthermore, in the CSeries your are less likely to be struck in a middle seat. You also have more and wider windows. And the cabin is less noisy.

That fits my definition of more comfortable.
 
Andre3K
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Re: DL May Push C-Series Order to AM Avoiding Trade Duty

Thu Dec 07, 2017 1:52 am

ExMilitaryEng wrote:
Andre3K wrote:
Super80Fan wrote:
Great job Boeing, still screwing the consumer over. Now instead of flying in a comfortable C-Series on the 2 side I now have to suffer a 737 ride where everyone is cramped and feels tighter due to 60's design.
Why are you blaming Boeing? They aren't the ones who shove in as many seats as possible.

He's talking about the 737 smaller fuselage width, which makes the economy seats narrower than those on the CSeries (and also the A320s).

The carriers control the pitch.

So with an equal pitch (and equal quality seats), the CSeries economy seats are way more comfortable than those on the 737s.

Furthermore, in the CSeries your are less likely to be struck in a middle seat. You also have more and wider windows. And the cabin is less noisy.

That fits my definition of more comfortable.


Despite what we all want, Airlines are the business of making money, not making sure everyone is comfortable. Nobody was complaining about the seats (except your typical A.net super nerd) until they started getting closer together.
 
PPVRA
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Re: DL May Push C-Series Order to AM Avoiding Trade Duty

Thu Dec 07, 2017 2:35 am

EddieDude wrote:
The C-Series would be a great replacement for AM's 737-700s and E-190s (perhaps even for some E-170s, as AM has been slowly upsizing its Connect fleet). The only disadvantage that I see is that AM has worked very hard to reduce the number of aircraft type to two for mainline: 737NG (which soon will transition into the MAX), and the Dreamliner. Their commuter fleet (Connect) is all Embraer. This move would add a completely new type, creating the need for more expenditures in training, spare parts, maintenance, etc.

In any case, these are very interesting developments. Let's see what happens.


How’s it decided at AM if an aircraft will be flown by AM or Connect?
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
EddieDude
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Re: DL May Push C-Series Order to AM Avoiding Trade Duty

Thu Dec 07, 2017 4:28 am

PPVRA wrote:
How’s it decided at AM if an aircraft will be flown by AM or Connect?


Connect (5D, fka AeroLitoral) is an all-regional jet operator (ERJ-145, E-170, E-175 and E-190), while AM is an all-mainline jet operator (73G, 738, Dreamliners and soon 737-8MAX and 737-9MAX).

Connect has a lower cost base. Pilots and flight attendants at Connect are under a different collective bargaining agreement than AM mainline, and the payscale and level of benefits are lower. In terms of commercial decision-making, Connect serves routes that are thinner and therefore require less seats, whereas AM mainline serves routes that have greater demand and where it is therefore feasible to fill 73Gs and 738s consistently with yields (i.e., profitably). Mileage accrual is the same, and Connect birds except the 145s have business class (domestic first) cabins as well. AM aims to offer a relatively consistent travel experience to its customers, regardless of the type of aircraft.

That said, AM mainline and Connect sometimes serve the same routes (example: you could find MEX-MID on both AM mainline 738s and AM Connect E-170s depending on the date, time, season, etc.). It is interesting that some routes like MEX-DFW and MEX-IAH are mostly if not solely Connect, while shorter domestic ones are mostly or solely mainline.

If AM ends up taking some of the CS-series aircraft, it will be very interesting to see if they will be AM (mainline) birds or if they will be 5D (Connect) aircraft.
Upcoming AM MEX-LAX 73H, VA LAX-MEL 77W.
 
wrongwayup
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Re: DL May Push C-Series Order to AM Avoiding Trade Duty

Thu Dec 07, 2017 5:07 am

Andre3K wrote:
Super80Fan wrote:
Great job Boeing, still screwing the consumer over. Now instead of flying in a comfortable C-Series on the 2 side I now have to suffer a 737 ride where everyone is cramped and feels tighter due to the 1960's design.



Why are you blaming Boeing? They aren't the ones who shove in as many seats as possible. Name one Boeing aircraft that was designed SPECIFICALLY to be 100% cramped cattle class.


737-8MAX-200 for one.
 
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BaconButty
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Re: DL May Push C-Series Order to AM Avoiding Trade Duty

Thu Dec 07, 2017 12:24 pm

PPVRA wrote:
The whole idea behind subsidizing the Delta deal was to get a very large name behind the C Series. AeroMexico is a great airline, but it isn’t the powerhouse Delta Air Lines is or have it’s global brand recognition. This deal wouldn’t be great for any of the parties involved, other than maybe AeroMexico. Of course, it’s still far better than cancelling the order.....

Sure, it's more about saying that a blue chip client trusted your ability to deliver the aircraft and support it in service, and hoping that confidence spurred further orders, as well as getting some volume in the order book. But that message has still been sent, anyone outside of a cave knows Delta wants them and why they might not take them. And in any case, it's dubious how effective that approach was, since it seems the DL order didn't seem to stimulate any subsequent interest. Also, how relevant that message still is now that the program has Airbus weight behind it is another matter.
Down with that sort of thing!
 
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william
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Re: DL May Push C-Series Order to AM Avoiding Trade Duty

Thu Dec 07, 2017 2:40 pm

SUNCTRY738 wrote:
I think the manner in which Boeing handled this entire issue around Delta's C-series order will go down as one of Boeing's biggest blunders ever. Their big Mexican customer Aeromexico ends up a C-series customer and their main rival Airbus ends up the C-series owner. And Delta ends up with all of their C-series order eventually with no tariffs and ends up ordering more along with many more Airbus aircraft. Wow, what a series of blunders by Boeing. The only way Boeing saves any face in this is by giving Delta some screaming new order deals which Delta will gladly take.


With or without the CS trade war Delta was going to drive for a hard deal, so no, nothing to loose. Just like Boeing passed on the same CS deal that Airbus took. Boeing saw no value in it but Airbus did.

Having a Mexican airline take over the order and lease back to Delta, ala SWA's 717 is brilliant.
 
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scbriml
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Re: DL May Push C-Series Order to AM Avoiding Trade Duty

Thu Dec 07, 2017 2:48 pm

william wrote:
Having a Mexican airline take over the order and lease back to Delta, ala SWA's 717 is brilliant.


I don't know where this idea is coming from, and it most certainly wouldn't be a way for DL to avoid the tariffs. Even if leased via a 3rd party, DL would still effectively be importing the planes and would have to pay the tariffs.

From the original Yahoo article...
Under the proposed Aeromexico deal, the single-aisle jets would be sold to Aeromexico and fly under the banner of the Mexican carrier which would not have to pay a U.S. duty, one of the sources added.

"It's not a way for Aeromexico to fly for Delta," the same source said. "But it keeps the planes within the Delta family."


So this isn't a 'back door' way for DL to get their hands on the CS without paying the tariffs. DL is simply passing on their slots to another airline in which they have a significant stake.
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
There are 10 types of people in the World - those that understand binary and those that don't.
 
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Polot
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Re: DL May Push C-Series Order to AM Avoiding Trade Duty

Thu Dec 07, 2017 3:34 pm

SteelChair wrote:
scbriml wrote:

So this isn't a 'back door' way for DL to get their hands on the CS without paying the tariffs. DL is simply passing on their slots to another airline in which they have a significant stake.


And thereby helping the CSeries program....keeping the 3rd manufacturer alive and kicking....

What 3rd manufacturer? BBD has basically given Airbus the C Series on a silver platter.
 
SteelChair
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Re: DL May Push C-Series Order to AM Avoiding Trade Duty

Thu Dec 07, 2017 3:35 pm

scbriml wrote:

So this isn't a 'back door' way for DL to get their hands on the CS without paying the tariffs. DL is simply passing on their slots to another airline in which they have a significant stake.


And thereby helping the CSeries program....keeping the 3rd manufacturer alive and kicking....
 
jetwet1
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Re: DL May Push C-Series Order to AM Avoiding Trade Duty

Thu Dec 07, 2017 3:39 pm

SUNCTRY738 wrote:
I think the manner in which Boeing handled this entire issue around Delta's C-series order will go down as one of Boeing's biggest blunders ever.


As I pointed out in the original tariff thread, I have to wonder if Boeing thought the tariffs would be a whole lot lower and if I was Ed Bastian I would have been on the phone to Dennis Muilenburg and ripped him a new one.

I just cannot see Boeing thinking this was going to play out the way it has and damaging a major customer of their products the way it has. I sure as hell wouldn't want to be Kevin McAllister making his first call to Delta after this, heck if one of my suppliers caused me this much of a headache I wouldn't take the call from them anyways.

Polot wrote:
What 3rd manufacturer? BBD has basically given Airbus the C Series on a silver platter.


I would argue that it was Boeing that gave the C series to Airbus on a silver platter, BBD was making it as an independent (not doing great but they had just enough business to keep going) before Boeing decided to try and push them out of the market.
 
SteelChair
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Re: DL May Push C-Series Order to AM Avoiding Trade Duty

Thu Dec 07, 2017 3:49 pm

Polot wrote:
SteelChair wrote:
scbriml wrote:

So this isn't a 'back door' way for DL to get their hands on the CS without paying the tariffs. DL is simply passing on their slots to another airline in which they have a significant stake.


And thereby helping the CSeries program....keeping the 3rd manufacturer alive and kicking....

What 3rd manufacturer? BBD has basically given Airbus the C Series on a silver platter.


Airbus was in negotiations with BBD before the trade dispute.

The trade dispute is not final yet.

Airbus has only a portion of the CSeries.

Neither Boeing nor Airbus has a competing product to the Cseries. Filling this market niche helps airlines and helps airline customers.
 
raylee67
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Re: DL May Push C-Series Order to AM Avoiding Trade Duty

Thu Dec 07, 2017 5:05 pm

WaywardMemphian wrote:
Here's what should worry Boeing, another airline will be flying the C-Series. That let's be proved on additional missions and open it up to even more business. AM could use these planes on some seasonal routes to expand point to points.

Exactly. If Delta really pushes the order to AM, it is a serious backfiring for Boeing's actions. Meanwhile, AM probably doesn't need 75 CS, so Delta will find other partners to cover the rest, further spreading CS to other markets.

Although Virgin Australia does not have shareholding relationship with Delta, it has deep business partnership. The airline has 13 E190+73G, which can be replaced by CS. Moreover, it has 78 73H in service and only 40 MAX8 on order, which opens up opportunities for some 73H being replaced by CS300. Delta's 75 CS can be taken up easily between AM and VA. Of course, VA is purely my speculation.

And if Delta really likes the CS, they can place another order for those that will be built in Mobile.
319 320 321 332 333 342 343 345 388 707 717 732 736 73G 738 739 74R 742 743 744 74E 748 757 762 763 772 77E 77L 773 77W D10 M80 135 140 145 175 190 DH1 DH4 CRJ CR7 L10
AY LH OU SR BA
AA DL UA NW AC CP WS FL NK
CI NH SQ KA CX JL BR OZ TG KE CA CZ NZ JQ RS
 
KrustyTheKlown
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Re: DL May Push C-Series Order to AM Avoiding Trade Duty

Thu Dec 07, 2017 6:02 pm

From this picture it seems Bombardier was pitching the CS100 to AM:

Image

The diagram shows around 110 seats and a range of 2650NM / 4900km (enough for any North American, Caribbean, Central American and NW South American destination AM may be interested).

Taking off from sea level the CS100 has a range of 3100NM, so out of MEX (7,200 feet above sea level) it gets 85% of its maximum range. No Idea if these numbers are obtained by configuring the CS100 with the higher thrust CS300 engines.
 
ExMilitaryEng
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Re: DL May Push C-Series Order to AM Avoiding Trade Duty

Thu Dec 07, 2017 6:27 pm

As Delta was already well advanced in setting up the training program for its CSeries pilots and crews (and also the whole maintenance program), I suspect Delta will provide those services to AM if they elect to pick up some CSeries.

That would greatly ease the integration process for AM. (Also, this is applicable to WestJet...)
 
Dalmd88
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Re: DL May Push C-Series Order to AM Avoiding Trade Duty

Thu Dec 07, 2017 8:48 pm

The C series order is not getting pushed to AM. DL is just going to defer delivery until either the tariff is dropped or they can assemble the plane in MOB. AM may order some C Series, but that has nothing to do with DL.
 
SteelChair
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Re: DL May Push C-Series Order to AM Avoiding Trade Duty

Thu Dec 07, 2017 9:44 pm

Dalmd88 wrote:
The C series order is not getting pushed to AM. DL is just going to defer delivery until either the tariff is dropped or they can assemble the plane in MOB. AM may order some C Series, but that has nothing to do with DL.


Not sure what you mean by "order," but it appears that some of the delivery slots could in fact get pushed to Delta JV partners.

If this were to happen, Delta would expand the customer base for the CSeries, improve the product across the JV, and help keep the production line humming at Bombardier. win/win/win

Would love to see some go to Westjet also. Is there anything preventing Westjet selling used 737's to Delta and Westjet taking some of the Delta CSeries delivery slots?
 
AirbusCanada
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Re: DL May Push C-Series Order to AM Avoiding Trade Duty

Thu Dec 07, 2017 10:41 pm

SUNCTRY738 wrote:
I think the manner in which Boeing handled this entire issue around Delta's C-series order will go down as one of Boeing's biggest blunders ever. Their big Mexican customer Aeromexico ends up a C-series customer and their main rival Airbus ends up the C-series owner. And Delta ends up with all of their C-series order eventually with no tariffs and ends up ordering more along with many more Airbus aircraft. Wow, what a series of blunders by Boeing. The only way Boeing saves any face in this is by giving Delta some screaming new order deals which Delta will gladly take.


Not to mention, loss of Defense contracts in Canada and UK.
 
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FlightLevel360
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Re: DL May Push C-Series Order to AM Avoiding Trade Duty

Thu Dec 07, 2017 11:00 pm

ExMilitaryEng wrote:
For a Mobile CSeries FAL, worst case would be that only Canadian parts could be hit by duties.

At least 50% of the CSeries is US sourced. Then the wings + part of the fuselage are from Belfast. (+ Some from China)

Not sure what's left, made in Canada, (the cockpit? The engines?) that would be taxable.


The engines are of the PW1000G family; thus, they are also made in the U.S. That means that pretty much the cockpit and some furnishing are the only things coming in from Canada.
 
twaconnie
Posts: 103
Joined: Sat Jun 28, 2008 3:18 pm

Re: DL May Push C-Series Order to AM Avoiding Trade Duty

Thu Dec 07, 2017 11:39 pm

Super80Fan wrote:
Great job Boeing, still screwing the consumer over. Now instead of flying in a comfortable C-Series on the 2 side I now have to suffer a 737 ride where everyone is cramped and feels tighter due to the 1960's design.


I couldn't agree more. I feel DL and AC should stop doing business with Boeing.
 
teriyaki
Posts: 23
Joined: Wed Apr 11, 2012 1:11 am

Re: DL May Push C-Series Order to AM Avoiding Trade Duty

Fri Dec 08, 2017 1:38 am

Would love to see AeroMexico pick up a few of these. DL would likely be very willing to defer their deliveries, giving AM the go-ahead on the early builds.
 
Andre3K
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Joined: Tue May 30, 2017 10:11 pm

Re: DL May Push C-Series Order to AM Avoiding Trade Duty

Fri Dec 08, 2017 1:49 am

twaconnie wrote:
Super80Fan wrote:
Great job Boeing, still screwing the consumer over. Now instead of flying in a comfortable C-Series on the 2 side I now have to suffer a 737 ride where everyone is cramped and feels tighter due to the 1960's design.


I couldn't agree more. I feel DL and AC should stop doing business with Boeing.


With all the middleman legal inquisition's going on at Airbus are you going to sit here and act like they are Saint's?

If the shoe was on Airbus's foot they would have done the same. They don't have someone knocking on their door trying to get in.
 
Dalmd88
Posts: 2634
Joined: Fri Jul 28, 2000 3:19 am

Re: DL May Push C-Series Order to AM Avoiding Trade Duty

Fri Dec 08, 2017 2:16 am

SteelChair wrote:
Dalmd88 wrote:
The C series order is not getting pushed to AM. DL is just going to defer delivery until either the tariff is dropped or they can assemble the plane in MOB. AM may order some C Series, but that has nothing to do with DL.


Not sure what you mean by "order," but it appears that some of the delivery slots could in fact get pushed to Delta JV partners.

If this were to happen, Delta would expand the customer base for the CSeries, improve the product across the JV, and help keep the production line humming at Bombardier. win/win/win

Would love to see some go to Westjet also. Is there anything preventing Westjet selling used 737's to Delta and Westjet taking some of the Delta CSeries delivery slots?

I mean DL will take delivery of all the planes ordered. Some people on this thread think the DL planes are just going to go to AM and then DL will somehow get around the tariff to operate these specific airframes.
 
Planesmart
Posts: 2420
Joined: Sun Dec 05, 2004 3:18 am

Re: DL May Push C-Series Order to AM Avoiding Trade Duty

Fri Dec 08, 2017 2:20 am

Dalmd88 wrote:
The C series order is not getting pushed to AM. DL is just going to defer delivery until either the tariff is dropped or they can assemble the plane in MOB. AM may order some C Series, but that has nothing to do with DL.

One way to mitigate the tariff/duty, is to import the aircraft as used. A 90 day lease, enables the owner to take a disproportionate depreciation/value hit. A bit like if you bought a new car, and tried to sell it back to the dealership 90 days later.
 
astuteman
Posts: 6639
Joined: Mon Jan 24, 2005 7:50 pm

Re: DL May Push C-Series Order to AM Avoiding Trade Duty

Fri Dec 08, 2017 3:55 am

Andre3K wrote:
twaconnie wrote:
Super80Fan wrote:
Great job Boeing, still screwing the consumer over. Now instead of flying in a comfortable C-Series on the 2 side I now have to suffer a 737 ride where everyone is cramped and feels tighter due to the 1960's design.


I couldn't agree more. I feel DL and AC should stop doing business with Boeing.


With all the middleman legal inquisition's going on at Airbus are you going to sit here and act like they are Saint's?

If the shoe was on Airbus's foot they would have done the same. They don't have someone knocking on their door trying to get in.


C-Series is already flying in Europe with a subsidiary of the national carrier of one of the Airbus founding nations ......
So no. Airbus would not have done the same.

Rgds
 
Andre3K
Posts: 162
Joined: Tue May 30, 2017 10:11 pm

Re: DL May Push C-Series Order to AM Avoiding Trade Duty

Sun Dec 10, 2017 6:59 pm

astuteman wrote:
Andre3K wrote:
twaconnie wrote:

I couldn't agree more. I feel DL and AC should stop doing business with Boeing.


With all the middleman legal inquisition's going on at Airbus are you going to sit here and act like they are Saint's?

If the shoe was on Airbus's foot they would have done the same. They don't have someone knocking on their door trying to get in.


C-Series is already flying in Europe with a subsidiary of the national carrier of one of the Airbus founding nations ......
So no. Airbus would not have done the same.

Rgds


The scale of those airlines over there are NOWHERE near the scale of airlines here in the US. It's not even close.
 
KLAM
Posts: 197
Joined: Fri Mar 09, 2007 6:31 am

Re: DL May Push C-Series Order to AM Avoiding Trade Duty

Sun Dec 10, 2017 7:58 pm

astuteman wrote:
Andre3K wrote:
twaconnie wrote:

I couldn't agree more. I feel DL and AC should stop doing business with Boeing.


With all the middleman legal inquisition's going on at Airbus are you going to sit here and act like they are Saint's?

If the shoe was on Airbus's foot they would have done the same. They don't have someone knocking on their door trying to get in.


C-Series is already flying in Europe with a subsidiary of the national carrier of one of the Airbus founding nations ......
So no. Airbus would not have done the same.

Rgds


Completely agree... On top of this, there are a number of carriers in Europe that operate Embraer jets for regional and Boeing jets long haul, and nobody is throwing a fit. Competition is a legal thing, and the market should eliminate those who cannot compete. I sincerely hope that AM likes the C-series. Canada on its side, should impose heavy taxes on Boeing planes purchased after this stupid law comes in place. That would be a proper market response.
flyOM
 
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767333ER
Posts: 698
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Re: DL May Push C-Series Order to AM Avoiding Trade Duty

Sun Dec 10, 2017 8:22 pm

Andre3K wrote:
astuteman wrote:
Andre3K wrote:

With all the middleman legal inquisition's going on at Airbus are you going to sit here and act like they are Saint's?

If the shoe was on Airbus's foot they would have done the same. They don't have someone knocking on their door trying to get in.


C-Series is already flying in Europe with a subsidiary of the national carrier of one of the Airbus founding nations ......
So no. Airbus would not have done the same.

Rgds


The scale of those airlines over there are NOWHERE near the scale of airlines here in the US. It's not even close.

What’s that even supposed to mean. LH has a smaller fleet than DL, but when they put a large order for a plane it makes it that much more noticeable especially when the other offering is more or less a home town product. LH not ordering Airbus is comparable to AS not ordering Boeing, both a bigger deal than DL not ordering Boeing and ordering CS100, but Airbus, Germany, and the EU still don’t make a stink about it. AF also operates lots of Boeing aircraft, brand new ones, and no stink from Airbus, France, or the EU. Delta based in Atlanta orders CS100s, a small order considering how huge their fleet is and the people way over in Chicago and the people on the other end of the continent in Seattle make a huge sting even though their products were never considered nor offered and then the government begins to prove once again that they really don’t believe in the free trade they claim to.
Been on: 732 733 734 73G 738 752 763 A319 A320 A321 CRJ CR7 CRA/CR9 E145 E175 E190 F28 MD-82 MD-83 C172R C172S P2006T
 
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aerolimani
Posts: 772
Joined: Tue Jun 18, 2013 5:46 pm

Re: DL May Push C-Series Order to AM Avoiding Trade Duty

Mon Dec 11, 2017 5:23 am

Andre3K wrote:
astuteman wrote:
Andre3K wrote:

With all the middleman legal inquisition's going on at Airbus are you going to sit here and act like they are Saint's?

If the shoe was on Airbus's foot they would have done the same. They don't have someone knocking on their door trying to get in.


C-Series is already flying in Europe with a subsidiary of the national carrier of one of the Airbus founding nations ......
So no. Airbus would not have done the same.

Rgds


The scale of those airlines over there are NOWHERE near the scale of airlines here in the US. It's not even close.

If you look at individual airlines in Europe, you could make this misrake. But let's take, for example, Lufthansa Group. It consists of Lufthansa, Air Dolomiti, Austrian Airlines, Brussels Airlines, Eurowings, Germanwings, Eurowings Europe, Lufthansa Cargo, Lufthansa CityLine, Swiss International Air Lines, Swiss Global Air Lines, Edelweiss Air, AeroLogic (50%), SunExpress (50%), and SunExpress Deutschland. As far as buying aircraft goes, LH Group is one company, and their fleet is over 600. Some of the US airlines look a lot bigger, but not when you strip away the aircraft which are actually owned by the regional partners.

Companies like LH Group and IAG have significant buying power, and wield strong influence over the manufacturers; both Boeing and Airbus. To dismiss them as "NOWHERE near" the scale of US airlines is just wrong. Would Boeing have even made the 747-800 without influence from LH? The 737 was originally built for Lufthansa too.

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