whywhyzee
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Re: Delta and Westjet agree to form US-Canada JV

Wed Dec 06, 2017 9:30 pm

787 starts delivering in 2019, which will feature true J service, along side a dedicated PY product for long haul. Lounges will be built at YYZ, YYC and YVR, the plus product is being expanded and improved on their narrowbody fleet. This JV is intended to work with what is coming. It isn't supposed to take effect until ~2019 anyhow, WS will be a very different airline at that point. What it does bring them is credibility.
 
Acey
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Re: Delta and Westjet agree to form US-Canada JV

Wed Dec 06, 2017 10:37 pm

cledaybuck wrote:
Acey wrote:
cledaybuck wrote:
What are the supposed public benefits from this proposed JV?

This opens the door for YYC-ATL, so for anybody in YYC it opens one-stop connections to the southeast and beyond via the massive ATL hub. Seems like a big benefit.
Why can't that be done via codeshare?


Because revenues are not shared on a codeshare? Not saying it can't be done via codeshare, but there is talk of new routes somebody on YYC-DTW or YYC-ATL are plausible scenarios.
If a man hasn't discovered something that he will die for, he isn't fit to live. -- Martin Luther King, Jr.
 
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OzarkD9S
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Re: Delta and Westjet agree to form US-Canada JV

Wed Dec 06, 2017 10:43 pm

AA + Porter now?
Three Swallows will get you there.
 
tphuang
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Re: Delta and Westjet agree to form US-Canada JV

Wed Dec 06, 2017 10:45 pm

Acey wrote:
cledaybuck wrote:
Acey wrote:
This opens the door for YYC-ATL, so for anybody in YYC it opens one-stop connections to the southeast and beyond via the massive ATL hub. Seems like a big benefit.
Why can't that be done via codeshare?


Because revenues are not shared on a codeshare? Not saying it can't be done via codeshare, but there is talk of new routes somebody on YYC-DTW or YYC-ATL are plausible scenarios.

The point was that this doesn't help consumers. We want more competition and low prices. Yyz lga had seriously high fares before porter entered the market.
 
cumulushumilis
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Re: Delta and Westjet agree to form US-Canada JV

Wed Dec 06, 2017 11:11 pm

tphuang wrote:
Acey wrote:
cledaybuck wrote:
Why can't that be done via codeshare?


Because revenues are not shared on a codeshare? Not saying it can't be done via codeshare, but there is talk of new routes somebody on YYC-DTW or YYC-ATL are plausible scenarios.

The point was that this doesn't help consumers. We want more competition and low prices. Yyz lga had seriously high fares before porter entered the market.



WestJet and Delta will share the revenues, costs and profits on U.S./Canada transborder flying. Its important to note that both carriers assume the risk.

How does it not help consumers?
This allows for enhanced schedules, better connections, access to more markets, aligned frequent flyer programs (where both our guests share in the benefits of SkyMiles and WestJet dollars) and shared lounge access.
It has the potential to directly feed Hubs in both countries with traffic from secondary markets,and potentially increase competition. WS alone could not compete effectively with UA-AC Joint Venture in some secondary markets, just as DL had difficulty penetrating Canada. This allows for some head to head competition like YYC-JAX or TUL-YYC. In some markets the price of a ticket will go down.

BTW Porter does not even fly to LGA.
 
tphuang
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Re: Delta and Westjet agree to form US-Canada JV

Wed Dec 06, 2017 11:43 pm

cumulushumilis wrote:
tphuang wrote:
Acey wrote:

Because revenues are not shared on a codeshare? Not saying it can't be done via codeshare, but there is talk of new routes somebody on YYC-DTW or YYC-ATL are plausible scenarios.

The point was that this doesn't help consumers. We want more competition and low prices. Yyz lga had seriously high fares before porter entered the market.



WestJet and Delta will share the revenues, costs and profits on U.S./Canada transborder flying. Its important to note that both carriers assume the risk.

How does it not help consumers?
This allows for enhanced schedules, better connections, access to more markets, aligned frequent flyer programs (where both our guests share in the benefits of SkyMiles and WestJet dollars) and shared lounge access.
It has the potential to directly feed Hubs in both countries with traffic from secondary markets,and potentially increase competition. WS alone could not compete effectively with UA-AC Joint Venture in some secondary markets, just as DL had difficulty penetrating Canada. This allows for some head to head competition like YYC-JAX or TUL-YYC. In some markets the price of a ticket will go down.

BTW Porter does not even fly to LGA.


How many times have you flown between NYC and Toronto? Do you know how much price dropped in this market when porter started flying ewr yto?

As for your points, all it states is how delta and west jet would have improved position which I agree with.

Right now westjet has to undercut ac in lga yyz because of its disadvantages, which have resulted in low fares that I have never seen before. Adding delta into equation will cut the number of competitors by 1 in some markets while reducing westjet need to undercut ac in other markets like NYC to Toronto.

How am I going to see lower fares from this? This is designed to improve westjet and delta pricing power.
 
klm617
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Re: Delta and Westjet agree to form US-Canada JV

Thu Dec 07, 2017 12:06 am

KSBOS wrote:
Boston-Calgary on WestJet would be a nice add. Hearing its in the works for 2018.



I find that very odd why would they over fly YYZ when they can get so much more coverage there.
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
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flymco753
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Re: Delta and Westjet agree to form US-Canada JV

Thu Dec 07, 2017 12:20 am

[twoid][/twoid]
klm617 wrote:
KSBOS wrote:
Boston-Calgary on WestJet would be a nice add. Hearing its in the works for 2018.



I find that very odd why would they over fly YYZ when they can get so much more coverage there.
DTW-YYC is more than likely going to come out of this so BOS-YYC wouldn't affect that or the current Encore service from BOS-YYZ.
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berari
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Re: Delta and Westjet agree to form US-Canada JV

Thu Dec 07, 2017 12:29 am

wenders825 wrote:
ahj2000 wrote:
mercure1 wrote:

The AA-WS relationship was recently trimmed back, likely in anticipation of this DL deal.

yikes. Wonder what AA will do (or more likely,won’t) do in Canada now.

AA announced a lot of canadian additions last week, with more probably to come.

I could see a return to YHZ, for example


Westjet's YYC-ORD had AA code placed on them. If you look at upcoming schedule, AA's is seasonal just like WS', and it only operates on the same days that WS operates.

I'm happy about this. Could bring fares down on this route with a new entrant.
 
Acey
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Re: Delta and Westjet agree to form US-Canada JV

Thu Dec 07, 2017 12:44 am

tphuang wrote:
Acey wrote:
cledaybuck wrote:
Why can't that be done via codeshare?


Because revenues are not shared on a codeshare? Not saying it can't be done via codeshare, but there is talk of new routes somebody on YYC-DTW or YYC-ATL are plausible scenarios.

The point was that this doesn't help consumers. We want more competition and low prices. Yyz lga had seriously high fares before porter entered the market.

Being able to fly YYC-ATL-xxx helps me, and I'm a consumer. I'm not sure you get to tell me what's beneficial to my travel plans.
If a man hasn't discovered something that he will die for, he isn't fit to live. -- Martin Luther King, Jr.
 
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piedmontf284000
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Re: Delta and Westjet agree to form US-Canada JV

Thu Dec 07, 2017 12:51 am

Delta currently flies to YYZ, YUL, YYC, YVR, YWG, YHZ, YOW, YEA, YXE, and YEG. Most are regional service with a couple of mainline thrown. With the exception of YYZ, YUL, and YVR, the rest are one to two flights a day. With this new JV, this gives DL a much bigger share of the Canadian pie, which for the last ten years has been dominated by the UA/AC partnership. It does even more for WestJet who will seemingly double their route map overnight. It also gives Canadians more options and thus creates more competition which should drive fares down. It's a win win for everybody, except AA, who continues to baffle me on their long-term strategies under Doug Parker. It seems like they have been totally asleep at the wheel the last few years sans the partnership with CZ, which time will tell if they make it work or not.
 
deltairlines
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Re: Delta and Westjet agree to form US-Canada JV

Thu Dec 07, 2017 12:55 am

ScottB wrote:
I expect to see some fraction of WS's YYZ-LGA flying to be shifted over to DL Connection; this route sees mostly the 737-600 which is still probably too large given the amount of frequency. I could also see DL Connection taking over the BOS-YYZ/YHZ routes from Encore, which would free up Q400s for WS to use elsewhere.


I doubt this happens. The WestJet slots at LGA were divestiture slots from the DL/US slot swap at LGA/DCA. WS picked up 8 slot pairs as part of this and these slots are not transferable to other airlines...I think if they forfeit them, they go back to the DOT for allocation.
 
CHI2DFW
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Re: Delta and Westjet agree to form US-Canada JV

Thu Dec 07, 2017 1:07 am

Before the DL / ATL / DTW fan club claims 10s of new routes to ..., just look at the UA / AC JV. Non-hub flights have been gutted, but Hub to Hub has more seats. Be careful what you wish for.
 
winginit
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Re: Delta and Westjet agree to form US-Canada JV

Thu Dec 07, 2017 1:24 am

CHI2DFW wrote:
Before the DL / ATL / DTW fan club claims 10s of new routes to ..., just look at the UA / AC JV. Non-hub flights have been gutted, but Hub to Hub has more seats. Be careful what you wish for.


Not sure I'm recalling this correctly, but I believe the scope of the UA/AC JV wasn't blanketed across all US/CA transborder traffic and is/was hub specific, which would explain those network changes.
 
klm617
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Re: Delta and Westjet agree to form US-Canada JV

Thu Dec 07, 2017 1:25 am

CHI2DFW wrote:
Before the DL / ATL / DTW fan club claims 10s of new routes to ..., just look at the UA / AC JV. Non-hub flights have been gutted, but Hub to Hub has more seats. Be careful what you wish for.



See with that being said we should expect to see more seats on DTW-YYZ and the introduction of DTW-YVR and YYC be we know that's not going to happen if anyone benefits it will be only ATL
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
klm617
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Re: Delta and Westjet agree to form US-Canada JV

Thu Dec 07, 2017 1:26 am

Acey wrote:
tphuang wrote:
Acey wrote:

Because revenues are not shared on a codeshare? Not saying it can't be done via codeshare, but there is talk of new routes somebody on YYC-DTW or YYC-ATL are plausible scenarios.

The point was that this doesn't help consumers. We want more competition and low prices. Yyz lga had seriously high fares before porter entered the market.

Being able to fly YYC-ATL-xxx helps me, and I'm a consumer. I'm not sure you get to tell me what's beneficial to my travel plans.



But DTW-YYC-xxx would help you more.
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
commavia
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Re: Delta and Westjet agree to form US-Canada JV

Thu Dec 07, 2017 1:31 am

OzarkD9S wrote:
AA + Porter now?


As I mentioned earlier, it is, indeed intriguing.

AA's and Porter's networks don't really overlap much, but then also don't really connect much, either. There could potentially be some (very) limited connectivity over YOW/YUL, but obviously Porter's absence from what is by far AA's largest Canadian station (YYZ) means overall network connectivity would be quite minimal. That said, with respect to Toronto point of sale specifically, a partnership between the two could clearly help given Porter's strong penetration there and dominant presence at YTZ.

Ultimately, AA could potentially benefit somewhat from some form of partnership - probably not likely to be a JV, but more a codeshare/FF partnership, if anything - with Porter, potentially complimented by enhanced codesharing with Alaska for continued/better access to western Canada (YVR, YYJ, YLW, YYC, YEG). And on top of that, as said, I still think this could potentially spur AA to further build up its own branded flying to Canada - not by much, but in a few select places, the most logical being PHL-YHZ and then maybe some more "out of the box" adds like ORD-YWG or even seasonal LAX-YYJ.
 
cumulushumilis
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Re: Delta and Westjet agree to form US-Canada JV

Thu Dec 07, 2017 1:37 am

tphuang wrote:
cumulushumilis wrote:
tphuang wrote:
The point was that this doesn't help consumers. We want more competition and low prices. Yyz lga had seriously high fares before porter entered the market.



WestJet and Delta will share the revenues, costs and profits on U.S./Canada transborder flying. Its important to note that both carriers assume the risk.

How does it not help consumers?
This allows for enhanced schedules, better connections, access to more markets, aligned frequent flyer programs (where both our guests share in the benefits of SkyMiles and WestJet dollars) and shared lounge access.
It has the potential to directly feed Hubs in both countries with traffic from secondary markets,and potentially increase competition. WS alone could not compete effectively with UA-AC Joint Venture in some secondary markets, just as DL had difficulty penetrating Canada. This allows for some head to head competition like YYC-JAX or TUL-YYC. In some markets the price of a ticket will go down.

BTW Porter does not even fly to LGA.


How many times have you flown between NYC and Toronto? Do you know how much price dropped in this market when porter started flying ewr yto?

As for your points, all it states is how delta and west jet would have improved position which I agree with.

Right now westjet has to undercut ac in lga yyz because of its disadvantages, which have resulted in low fares that I have never seen before. Adding delta into equation will cut the number of competitors by 1 in some markets while reducing westjet need to undercut ac in other markets like NYC to Toronto.

How am I going to see lower fares from this? This is designed to improve westjet and delta pricing power.



For the record, I am extremely familiar with YYZ-EWR/LGA markets, more so than you think. Delta and WS have been codesharing quite vigoursly in the New York market for quite some time now. There was a time when WS was flying transcon into EWR from YYC into EWR and shifted that flying over to JFK to take advantage of the connecting traffic. It also codeshares from LGA. LGA is like the black hole of Airports in North America and I am sure it’s not the first choice for Delta and WestJet to make radical changes in. LGA is not known as a hub airport for obivious reasons. What a joint venture has the ability is for WestJet to make use of of Delta facilities in LGA and vice versa in YYZ and to consolidate airport operations (ground handling/check in facilities/people power and leasing costs) in both LGA and YYZ for both airlines which may in fact reduce costs of operating in that market. That makes the current yield environment for the YYZ-LGA market more sustainable and competitive.
 
tphuang
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Re: Delta and Westjet agree to form US-Canada JV

Thu Dec 07, 2017 1:49 am

Being able to fly YYC-ATL-xxx helps me, and I'm a consumer. I'm not sure you get to tell me what's beneficial to my travel plans.

they could establish that without JV. They already code share and interline with each other.

And you can get to xxx via LGA, MSP, ORD, DFW, IAH, DEN. Any number of cities.

cumulushumilis wrote:
tphuang wrote:
cumulushumilis wrote:


WestJet and Delta will share the revenues, costs and profits on U.S./Canada transborder flying. Its important to note that both carriers assume the risk.

How does it not help consumers?
This allows for enhanced schedules, better connections, access to more markets, aligned frequent flyer programs (where both our guests share in the benefits of SkyMiles and WestJet dollars) and shared lounge access.
It has the potential to directly feed Hubs in both countries with traffic from secondary markets,and potentially increase competition. WS alone could not compete effectively with UA-AC Joint Venture in some secondary markets, just as DL had difficulty penetrating Canada. This allows for some head to head competition like YYC-JAX or TUL-YYC. In some markets the price of a ticket will go down.

BTW Porter does not even fly to LGA.


How many times have you flown between NYC and Toronto? Do you know how much price dropped in this market when porter started flying ewr yto?

As for your points, all it states is how delta and west jet would have improved position which I agree with.

Right now westjet has to undercut ac in lga yyz because of its disadvantages, which have resulted in low fares that I have never seen before. Adding delta into equation will cut the number of competitors by 1 in some markets while reducing westjet need to undercut ac in other markets like NYC to Toronto.

How am I going to see lower fares from this? This is designed to improve westjet and delta pricing power.



For the record, I am extremely familiar with YYZ-EWR/LGA markets, more so than you think. Delta and WS have been codesharing quite vigoursly in the New York market for quite some time now. There was a time when WS was flying transcon into EWR from YYC into EWR and shifted that flying over to JFK to take advantage of the connecting traffic. It also codeshares from LGA. LGA is like the black hole of Airports in North America and I am sure it’s not the first choice for Delta and WestJet to make radical changes in. LGA is not known as a hub airport for obivious reasons. What a joint venture has the ability is for WestJet to make use of of Delta facilities in LGA and vice versa in YYZ and to consolidate airport operations (ground handling/check in facilities/people power and leasing costs) in both LGA and YYZ for both airlines which may in fact reduce costs of operating in that market. That makes the current yield environment for the YYZ-LGA market more sustainable and competitive.


Again, these are factors that make Delta and WestJet more profitable. They are not going to lower my prices. I got these lower prices because there are legitimately 4 airlines that I can fly between the 2 cities: AC, WS, PD and AA. I don't believe for a second that WS will exit the YYZ-LGA market if they don't get JV. And as long as they are disadvantaged vs PD's YTO location and AC's YYZ hub, they will have to continue keeping prices low, which is good for consumers. And this doesn't even address routes where DL and WS are both operating.
 
Acey
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Re: Delta and Westjet agree to form US-Canada JV

Thu Dec 07, 2017 2:40 am

tphuang wrote:
they could establish that without JV. They already code share and interline with each other.

And you can get to xxx via LGA, MSP, ORD, DFW, IAH, DEN. Any number of cities.


Tell me more about the direct LGA service from YYC making a one stop connection possible. And who says I want to fly to ORD, DFW, IAH, or DEN? I thought stating that I want to connect via ATL made it pretty clear that I want to fly DL. I'm not sure why you're trying to convince me that YYC-ATL is not beneficial to me.

All I'm saying is that DL gave it a go on YYC-ATL and it didn't work out... with the mitigated risk of the JV there's a good chance one of the two will give it a go again.

klm617 wrote:
Acey wrote:
tphuang wrote:
The point was that this doesn't help consumers. We want more competition and low prices. Yyz lga had seriously high fares before porter entered the market.

Being able to fly YYC-ATL-xxx helps me, and I'm a consumer. I'm not sure you get to tell me what's beneficial to my travel plans.



But DTW-YYC-xxx would help you more.


It absolutely would not, since I've made it pretty clear that it's a one stop connection I want and it's obviously an airport served from ATL and not DTW.

That said, YYC-DTW would be great for other people in YYC so I'd like for them to start that too.
Last edited by Acey on Thu Dec 07, 2017 2:57 am, edited 1 time in total.
If a man hasn't discovered something that he will die for, he isn't fit to live. -- Martin Luther King, Jr.
 
BigTexFlyer
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Re: Delta and Westjet agree to form US-Canada JV

Thu Dec 07, 2017 2:57 am

DTW will become a transborder hub and the first US city to have Canadian Pre-clearance!

KLM...
 
jimbo737
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Re: Delta and Westjet agree to form US-Canada JV

Thu Dec 07, 2017 3:30 am

I doubt you’ll see this JV result in the scaling back of much, indeed anything, as regards Westjet‘s fleet. You won’t see a lot of Canadians electing to fly Canada to ATL or SLC to any location Westjet already operates on a n/s basis. Why would they bother?

There aren’t many airlines out there with the track record of consistent profitability WestJet has had over its 22 year history. They lost money one year, and that’s only because they wrote off the entire 737-200 fleet in 2004.

At today’s stock price, of about c$26, it’d cost Delta about us$1b to get 49% of WJ.

Current foreign ownership restrictions limit the buy-in to 25%.

To get the allowable 25%, they’d have to convince all the current foreign ownership to sell, and that would mean a substantial premium over c$26. $35 to $40 might stimulate that sort of thing.
 
amcnd
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Re: Delta and Westjet agree to form US-Canada JV

Thu Dec 07, 2017 3:50 am

I would love to see SLC/SEA-YLW and SLC-YYJ.
 
Whiteguy
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Re: Delta and Westjet agree to form US-Canada JV

Thu Dec 07, 2017 4:03 am

LockheedBBD wrote:
cumulushumilis wrote:
Let the C Series rumours fly for WestJet! AM gets them, courtesy of DL...

This article is stating that WJ will be acquiring 45 aircraft by 2020.. Very confusing

http://business.financialpost.com/transportation/airlines/update-1-canadas-westjet-to-add-45-aircraft-to-fleet-by-2020



Maybe it's referring to WJ's existing 737 orders entering service. West Jet has 58 aircraft on order, perhaps 45 of those are arriving before 2020.


The increase is in aircraft owned versus leased. Some new aircraft arriving and leases being bought out.

Read the article again, it explains it.....the fleet will increase from 165 to 189 by 2020, that's the additional 787s, MAXs and a couple more Qs on order!
 
cumulushumilis
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Re: Delta and Westjet agree to form US-Canada JV

Thu Dec 07, 2017 4:28 am

Whiteguy wrote:
LockheedBBD wrote:
cumulushumilis wrote:
Let the C Series rumours fly for WestJet! AM gets them, courtesy of DL...

This article is stating that WJ will be acquiring 45 aircraft by 2020.. Very confusing

http://business.financialpost.com/transportation/airlines/update-1-canadas-westjet-to-add-45-aircraft-to-fleet-by-2020



Maybe it's referring to WJ's existing 737 orders entering service. West Jet has 58 aircraft on order, perhaps 45 of those are arriving before 2020.


The increase is in aircraft owned versus leased. Some new aircraft arriving and leases being bought out.

Read the article again, it explains it.....the fleet will increase from 165 to 189 by 2020, that's the additional 787s, MAXs and a couple more Qs on order!


WS had an investor day today and there was a slide that explained it more clearly , the difference in aircraft was encumbered aircraft versus unencumbered aircraft (aircraft loans being paid off by 2020)
 
whywhyzee
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Re: Delta and Westjet agree to form US-Canada JV

Thu Dec 07, 2017 4:41 am

According to the article, it’s a net increase of 24 aircraft to 189. According to their latest fleet matrix chart, which can be found on the 737-10 conversion thread (sorry, not a clue of how to transfer the image here) that number wasn’t set to be attained until almost 2027. It seems to me that this JV has certainly given them the confidence to move forward with a more aggressive growth plan. It will also be almost all mainline pending any new Q400 orders *hint hint* given that they only have 2 frames remaining of the original batch. It’s some pretty serious growth, alongside their new premium products being rolled out, if it all goes to plan, this could be the start of something big.
 
FlyingSicilian
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Re: Delta and Westjet agree to form US-Canada JV

Thu Dec 07, 2017 4:54 am

cledaybuck wrote:
klakzky123 wrote:
So with this announcement, I expect UA and AC to quickly follow this up with a cross-border JV. I think the current JV only covers TATL so I'd expect them to expand it to cover cross-border flights.
Nope. Covers cross-border with the following carve outs:
Between the US and Canada, carveouts will be required between Toronto and Cleveland, Houston, Chicago, and San Francisco as well as Houston to Calgary and New York to Ottawa. Over the Pacific, only US to Beijing routes are carved out. Any of these carveouts can be removed if new competition is introduced into the market.
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/dot-approv ... carveouts/


Westjet started YYC IAH service so did the AC\UA carve out end ?
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whywhyzee
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Re: Delta and Westjet agree to form US-Canada JV

Thu Dec 07, 2017 4:57 am

https://www.westjet.com/en-ca/about-us/ ... s/webcasts

The investors day presentation from today is available at this link. Worth a read, gives some insight into their plans.
 
KD5MDK
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Re: Delta and Westjet agree to form US-Canada JV

Thu Dec 07, 2017 5:14 am

commavia wrote:
OzarkD9S wrote:
AA + Porter now?


As I mentioned earlier, it is, indeed intriguing.

AA's and Porter's networks don't really overlap much, but then also don't really connect much, either. There could potentially be some (very) limited connectivity over YOW/YUL, but obviously Porter's absence from what is by far AA's largest Canadian station (YYZ) means overall network connectivity would be quite minimal. That said, with respect to Toronto point of sale specifically, a partnership between the two could clearly help given Porter's strong penetration there and dominant presence at YTZ.

Ultimately, AA could potentially benefit somewhat from some form of partnership - probably not likely to be a JV, but more a codeshare/FF partnership, if anything - with Porter, potentially complimented by enhanced codesharing with Alaska for continued/better access to western Canada (YVR, YYJ, YLW, YYC, YEG). And on top of that, as said, I still think this could potentially spur AA to further build up its own branded flying to Canada - not by much, but in a few select places, the most logical being PHL-YHZ and then maybe some more "out of the box" adds like ORD-YWG or even seasonal LAX-YYJ.

PHL-YTZ?

Presumably the other benefit would be AA passengers located in places like Boston, NYC, ORD etc choosing to do an entire flight on Porter via codeshare rather than on UA or AA. Also encourages Porter fliers in Toronto, YUL, YOW etc to pick AA when they need to get out of Q400 range of the border, like DFW or LAX.
 
ctrabs0114
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Re: Delta and Westjet agree to form US-Canada JV

Thu Dec 07, 2017 5:37 am

NichCage wrote:
It would be nice to WestJet join SkyTeam.

Is it true that WestJet wanted to make an agreement with Southwest a while back or something?


As best as I can recall, WN and WS were considering a codeshare or joint venture, but both parties, IINM, backed out of the agreement.
 
Whiteguy
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Re: Delta and Westjet agree to form US-Canada JV

Thu Dec 07, 2017 7:41 am

whywhyzee wrote:
According to the article, it’s a net increase of 24 aircraft to 189. According to their latest fleet matrix chart, which can be found on the 737-10 conversion thread (sorry, not a clue of how to transfer the image here) that number wasn’t set to be attained until almost 2027. It seems to me that this JV has certainly given them the confidence to move forward with a more aggressive growth plan. It will also be almost all mainline pending any new Q400 orders *hint hint* given that they only have 2 frames remaining of the original batch. It’s some pretty serious growth, alongside their new premium products being rolled out, if it all goes to plan, this could be the start of something big.


Based on the chart there are 26 aircraft being added from now until 2020. That includes the 2 NGs and 2 MAXs from this last quater, plus 1 Q. There are 2 Qs, 6 787s and 13 MAX aircraft. The only real change is that leases won't be leaving the fleet now.
 
michman
Posts: 794
Joined: Sat Dec 23, 2006 9:51 am

Re: Delta and Westjet agree to form US-Canada JV

Thu Dec 07, 2017 11:26 am

tphuang wrote:
Being able to fly YYC-ATL-xxx helps me, and I'm a consumer. I'm not sure you get to tell me what's beneficial to my travel plans.

they could establish that without JV. They already code share and interline with each other.

And you can get to xxx via LGA, MSP, ORD, DFW, IAH, DEN. Any number of cities.

cumulushumilis wrote:
tphuang wrote:

How many times have you flown between NYC and Toronto? Do you know how much price dropped in this market when porter started flying ewr yto?

As for your points, all it states is how delta and west jet would have improved position which I agree with.

Right now westjet has to undercut ac in lga yyz because of its disadvantages, which have resulted in low fares that I have never seen before. Adding delta into equation will cut the number of competitors by 1 in some markets while reducing westjet need to undercut ac in other markets like NYC to Toronto.

How am I going to see lower fares from this? This is designed to improve westjet and delta pricing power.



For the record, I am extremely familiar with YYZ-EWR/LGA markets, more so than you think. Delta and WS have been codesharing quite vigoursly in the New York market for quite some time now. There was a time when WS was flying transcon into EWR from YYC into EWR and shifted that flying over to JFK to take advantage of the connecting traffic. It also codeshares from LGA. LGA is like the black hole of Airports in North America and I am sure it’s not the first choice for Delta and WestJet to make radical changes in. LGA is not known as a hub airport for obivious reasons. What a joint venture has the ability is for WestJet to make use of of Delta facilities in LGA and vice versa in YYZ and to consolidate airport operations (ground handling/check in facilities/people power and leasing costs) in both LGA and YYZ for both airlines which may in fact reduce costs of operating in that market. That makes the current yield environment for the YYZ-LGA market more sustainable and competitive.


Again, these are factors that make Delta and WestJet more profitable. They are not going to lower my prices. I got these lower prices because there are legitimately 4 airlines that I can fly between the 2 cities: AC, WS, PD and AA. I don't believe for a second that WS will exit the YYZ-LGA market if they don't get JV. And as long as they are disadvantaged vs PD's YTO location and AC's YYZ hub, they will have to continue keeping prices low, which is good for consumers. And this doesn't even address routes where DL and WS are both operating.



Guess what, you don't get to speak for all "consumers". Some people may be only concerned about rock-bottom prices and nothing much else. Other people care more about large networks were they can get a more consistent experience, timely service, and better amenities. By the way, I hate the word "consumers". It treats everyone if they are one single homogeneous group with the exact same needs. Also, I prefer to think of myself as a thinker and creator, not just a mindless "consumer".
 
tphuang
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Re: Delta and Westjet agree to form US-Canada JV

Thu Dec 07, 2017 12:28 pm

michman wrote:
tphuang wrote:
Being able to fly YYC-ATL-xxx helps me, and I'm a consumer. I'm not sure you get to tell me what's beneficial to my travel plans.

they could establish that without JV. They already code share and interline with each other.

And you can get to xxx via LGA, MSP, ORD, DFW, IAH, DEN. Any number of cities.

cumulushumilis wrote:


For the record, I am extremely familiar with YYZ-EWR/LGA markets, more so than you think. Delta and WS have been codesharing quite vigoursly in the New York market for quite some time now. There was a time when WS was flying transcon into EWR from YYC into EWR and shifted that flying over to JFK to take advantage of the connecting traffic. It also codeshares from LGA. LGA is like the black hole of Airports in North America and I am sure it’s not the first choice for Delta and WestJet to make radical changes in. LGA is not known as a hub airport for obivious reasons. What a joint venture has the ability is for WestJet to make use of of Delta facilities in LGA and vice versa in YYZ and to consolidate airport operations (ground handling/check in facilities/people power and leasing costs) in both LGA and YYZ for both airlines which may in fact reduce costs of operating in that market. That makes the current yield environment for the YYZ-LGA market more sustainable and competitive.


Again, these are factors that make Delta and WestJet more profitable. They are not going to lower my prices. I got these lower prices because there are legitimately 4 airlines that I can fly between the 2 cities: AC, WS, PD and AA. I don't believe for a second that WS will exit the YYZ-LGA market if they don't get JV. And as long as they are disadvantaged vs PD's YTO location and AC's YYZ hub, they will have to continue keeping prices low, which is good for consumers. And this doesn't even address routes where DL and WS are both operating.



Guess what, you don't get to speak for all "consumers". Some people may be only concerned about rock-bottom prices and nothing much else. Other people care more about large networks were they can get a more consistent experience, timely service, and better amenities. By the way, I hate the word "consumers". It treats everyone if they are one single homogeneous group with the exact same needs. Also, I prefer to think of myself as a thinker and creator, not just a mindless "consumer".


I don't see how timely service has anything to do with whether you are in a jv or not. Westjet can improve experience and offer better amenities without jv. None of this requires jv. There are many airlines offer great experience and amenities without jv. Porter offers great experience. Does it have to be in a jv?

You can do all of that without eliminating competition. More competition drives better service and value and pricing. All this does is make ws and dl run more profitable operations.

If you want lounge access, you can fly porter. Everyone gets lounge access on porter. If you want mileage collection, you can open ws for account or fly with ac and ua. If you want to fly from Calgary to a non direct location. You can transfer at many airport other than Atlanta.

This might be more beneficial to passengers that fly a lot and only on westjet.

And for the great majority of passengers that do transborder flying, their experience will not improve at all but will now have to pay high fares.
 
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OzarkD9S
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Re: Delta and Westjet agree to form US-Canada JV

Thu Dec 07, 2017 2:49 pm

KD5MDK wrote:

commavia wrote:
OzarkD9S wrote:
AA + Porter now?



PHL-YTZ?

Presumably the other benefit would be AA passengers located in places like Boston, NYC, ORD etc choosing to do an entire flight on Porter via codeshare rather than on UA or AA. Also encourages Porter fliers in Toronto, YUL, YOW etc to pick AA when they need to get out of Q400 range of the border, like DFW or LAX.


Does Porter still have the LOI for the C-Series? No hope of YTZ for them but with a JV or financial investment by AA Porter could grow across Canada with the strength of AA behind them. The loss of CP (way back when) and now the probability of losing WS to DL may force AA to up their game in Canada. Heck they even bring IAG into the picture somehow.
Three Swallows will get you there.
 
commavia
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Re: Delta and Westjet agree to form US-Canada JV

Thu Dec 07, 2017 3:01 pm

KD5MDK wrote:
Presumably the other benefit would be AA passengers located in places like Boston, NYC, ORD etc choosing to do an entire flight on Porter via codeshare rather than on UA or AA. Also encourages Porter fliers in Toronto, YUL, YOW etc to pick AA when they need to get out of Q400 range of the border, like DFW or LAX.


Yes, exactly. That's why I say I'm unsure if a true "JV" a la United/Air Canada and soon Delta/WestJet would make sense for a hypothetical AA/Porter pairing - there is unlikely to be much overlap or connectivity between AA and Porter.

Where the two definitely could help each other, though, is improving the overall attractiveness of their complimentary networks for corporate customers, potentially also augmented with other AA partners like BA and Cathay Pacific. The easiest and most efficient way to do that is probably through a more "traditional" codeshare and FF partnership with joint selling of codeshares in the places where they do overlap/connect, and broader reciprocal FF earn/burn. Suddenly, a Porter FF in Toronto - and there are plenty of them - has the ability to fly Porter out of YTZ when heading to YUL or YOW or EWR or BOS, but also the new option of AA flights out of YYZ when going to LGA or ORD or LAX or MIA, not to mention, maybe, BA when flying to LHR, etc. That could have some value to both airlines.

The only way I could see either side being a bit antsy about doing something like that outside a JV would be if there was sufficient fear of cannibalization in the three (metro) city pairs where they do overlap - those being Toronto to CHI, NYC and WAS.

OzarkD9S wrote:
Does Porter still have the LOI for the C-Series? No hope of YTZ for them but with a JV or financial investment by AA Porter could grow across Canada with the strength of AA behind them. The loss of CP (way back when) and now the probability of losing WS to DL may force AA to up their game in Canada. Heck they even bring IAG into the picture somehow.


Maybe, but I'm skeptical. I'm not sure the Canadian market is large enough to support a third network or "network-like" competitor, with cross-country jet flights linking multiple hubs - whether supported by a partnership with a huge U.S. airline or not. Canada just isn't that big a market. History has shown that it couldn't viably support two true network airlines, but it has been able to sustain a global network airline plus a growing LCC with an increasingly nationwide network and increasingly premium/"network-like" offerings. And each of those two airlines have now picked their U.S. partner.

Porter is somewhat the odd man out, but then Porter also has a very specialized (and enviable) niche at YTZ. But I'm not sure how scalable the Porter model is outside DH4s in the YTZ-YOW-YUL corridor, and I fear that if Porter - hypothetically - went on an expansion kick with more DH4s and/or CSeries deployed more broadly across Canada, with that business case based largely on a hypothetical partnership with AA, it would be too much expansion and financial overextension for Porter. If anything, what I think is more plausible - down the road - would be Porter building essentially a similar business in western Canada as it's built in the east. The stage lengths are similar, and Porter's offering might find an audience flying in and out of, say, YVR and YYC to 5-10 cities in Alberta and BC. But again, if that ever could hypothetically happen, I don't think it's anytime soon.

Ultimately, in the context of this Delta-WestJet announcement, I still think AA's most likely response is simply to hunker down, accept its diminished place in the transborder market and make the best of the network presence it has. AA still has a pretty strong presence in some of Canada's largest markets - especially YYZ and YUL.
 
AADFWFlyer
Posts: 119
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Re: Delta and Westjet agree to form US-Canada JV

Thu Dec 07, 2017 3:58 pm

Interesting thread, as will be worthwhile to see if this MOU is approved to JV status, by both governments and qualifying authorities. Just a few thoughts to add -
(1) what are the thoughts on getting this approved?
(2) competition between Canada and US, and how this potential JV would affect that?
(3) odds of US DOJ approving this JV?
(4) similar/dissimilar to JV request that AA (believe) has resubmitted for JV between AA/Quantas between US and Australia?
(5) a bit off topic, but the odds of the JV between AA/Quantas being approved by current DOJ, as previous Administration DOJ initially disapproved proposed JV.
(6) does code share agreement between AA and WestJet totally go away, if proposed MOU (to JV) between DAL and WestJet approved?

Thoughts and inputs appreciated for discussion....
 
jimbo737
Posts: 231
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Re: Delta and Westjet agree to form US-Canada JV

Thu Dec 07, 2017 4:52 pm

There is virtually no community of interest between Calgary and Detroit and therefore no local traffic. I doubt this will occur.

WS already has seasonal Windsor - Calgary. The moment you cross then border, it attracts almost $50 in US fees and taxes. There is no way around this. No one is going to incur the additional cost of flying to DTW and then make their way back across the border to Windsor.

Atlanta is obviously more likely, from at least 2 of WS’s 3 focus cities. SLC is a possibility from YYC due to the strong Morman connection along the north south Mormon corridor.

The Southwest Codeshare was stillborn due to the limitations of Southwest’s archaic IT systems and limitations within the SWAPA contract. There was a point in WS’s history where YYZ-BWI-FLL or YYC-SLC-PHX might have made sense, but by 2010, that train had long since left the station and WJ was operating all the flights themselves n/s.

Replacing N/S Service with one stop over a Delta hub, especially in the winter, opens the door wide open for the potential, (I purposefully didn’t use “prospective”), new entrants, (none of which are capitalized), all of which are desperate to figure out what to do with their airplanes from mid Oct thru mid May.
 
WJtter
Posts: 8
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Re: Delta and Westjet agree to form US-Canada JV

Thu Dec 07, 2017 6:16 pm

WestJet's & AAs Codeshare agreement will end on January 14th, 2018. The FF reciprocal agreement will end July 31st. Should be public shortly.

Edit: Interline agreement will remain.
 
Dominion301
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Re: Delta and Westjet agree to form US-Canada JV

Thu Dec 07, 2017 6:36 pm

PD and AA might interline at some point, but PD will need to take the CSeries with aircraft based at YOW and YUL and AA would have to beef up their YOW presence to above their former levels (i.e. bring back ORD and CLT and launch MIA and DFW) in order for a full blown hookup to be of any value. Bringing back a 3rd PHL is a start (which itself still way off US' peak of 5x on YOW-PHL. Even when US had reduced YOW-PHL to 3x, it was mostly on E70/75s). YTZ-PHL on PD is of marginal benefit to AA given YYZ-PHL. Likewise, PD fly to MDW, which is of no use to AA's ORD hub.

Remember PD are already interline with B6.
Last edited by Dominion301 on Thu Dec 07, 2017 6:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
Acey
Posts: 1010
Joined: Wed Jun 27, 2007 2:06 pm

Re: Delta and Westjet agree to form US-Canada JV

Thu Dec 07, 2017 6:37 pm

jimbo737 wrote:
There is virtually no community of interest between Calgary and Detroit and therefore no local traffic. I doubt this will occur.

WS already has seasonal Windsor - Calgary. The moment you cross then border, it attracts almost $50 in US fees and taxes. There is no way around this. No one is going to incur the additional cost of flying to DTW and then make their way back across the border to Windsor.


Can you clarify why you're completely discounting the merit of onward connections with DL at DTW (majority of traffic if this route were to start) and unrealistically assuming anyone flying YYC-DTW is driving to Windsor?
If a man hasn't discovered something that he will die for, he isn't fit to live. -- Martin Luther King, Jr.
 
klm617
Posts: 1792
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Re: Delta and Westjet agree to form US-Canada JV

Thu Dec 07, 2017 6:43 pm

jimbo737 wrote:
There is virtually no community of interest between Calgary and Detroit and therefore no local traffic. I doubt this will occur.

WS already has seasonal Windsor - Calgary. The moment you cross then border, it attracts almost $50 in US fees and taxes. There is no way around this. No one is going to incur the additional cost of flying to DTW and then make their way back across the border to Windsor.

Atlanta is obviously more likely, from at least 2 of WS’s 3 focus cities. SLC is a possibility from YYC due to the strong Morman connection along the north south Mormon corridor.

The Southwest Codeshare was stillborn due to the limitations of Southwest’s archaic IT systems and limitations within the SWAPA contract. There was a point in WS’s history where YYZ-BWI-FLL or YYC-SLC-PHX might have made sense, but by 2010, that train had long since left the station and WJ was operating all the flights themselves n/s.

Replacing N/S Service with one stop over a Delta hub, especially in the winter, opens the door wide open for the potential, (I purposefully didn’t use “prospective”), new entrants, (none of which are capitalized), all of which are desperate to figure out what to do with their airplanes from mid Oct thru mid May.



I would think the same holds true in the YYC-ATL market. For onward connections to more of the USA DTW is much better situated than ATL is.
Last edited by klm617 on Thu Dec 07, 2017 6:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
Dominion301
Posts: 795
Joined: Wed Jul 20, 2016 1:48 pm

Re: Delta and Westjet agree to form US-Canada JV

Thu Dec 07, 2017 6:43 pm

Acey wrote:
jimbo737 wrote:
There is virtually no community of interest between Calgary and Detroit and therefore no local traffic. I doubt this will occur.

WS already has seasonal Windsor - Calgary. The moment you cross then border, it attracts almost $50 in US fees and taxes. There is no way around this. No one is going to incur the additional cost of flying to DTW and then make their way back across the border to Windsor.


Can you clarify why you're completely discounting the merit of onward connections with DL at DTW (majority of traffic if this route were to start) and unrealistically assuming anyone flying YYC-DTW is driving to Windsor?


I'm not sure what YYC-DTW offers that YYC-MSP doesn't already. Likewise as mentioned WS' seasonal YYC-YQG already serves Detroit. No doubt WS will add Encore YQG-YYZ at some point to make YQG a year-round station...I'm surprised it hasn't happened already. Routes like this are why, I think another Q400 order by WS is on the way. They simply don't have enough Qs to fill in all the regional route gaps...not to mention the fact if they want to offer a true hourly product to compete with Rapidair.

I have associates in Detroit and sometimes I choose the nonstop to DTW if the price is reasonable. Otherwise I'll fly into YQG and cross the Ambassador. Now that PD has a couple of daily YOW-YTZ-YQG same-plane services, it's only about an extra 45 minutes vs. a nonstop.

YYC-ATL is where you'll see either WS or DL launch daily service (I'm betting it'll be WS).
 
BoeingGuy
Posts: 4559
Joined: Fri Dec 10, 2010 6:01 pm

Re: Delta and Westjet agree to form US-Canada JV

Thu Dec 07, 2017 6:53 pm

Interesting, I haven’t yet seen one post speculating that this deal may also result in WS starting SEA and PDX. This has been expected for awhile but I would think a JV with DL makes it more likely.
 
Dominion301
Posts: 795
Joined: Wed Jul 20, 2016 1:48 pm

Re: Delta and Westjet agree to form US-Canada JV

Thu Dec 07, 2017 7:03 pm

BoeingGuy wrote:
Interesting, I haven’t yet seen one post speculating that this deal may also result in WS starting SEA and PDX. This has been expected for awhile but I would think a JV with DL makes it more likely.


Probably since WS already codeshare on DL's YYC/YEG/YVR/YYJ-SEA flights. While PDX is a DL focus city, I don't think this JV would be the reason for WS to launch PDX.
 
jordanh
Posts: 77
Joined: Fri Sep 08, 2017 11:56 pm

Re: Delta and Westjet agree to form US-Canada JV

Thu Dec 07, 2017 7:11 pm

klm617 wrote:
jimbo737 wrote:
There is virtually no community of interest between Calgary and Detroit and therefore no local traffic. I doubt this will occur. WS already has seasonal Windsor - Calgary. The moment you cross then border, it attracts almost $50 in US fees and taxes. There is no way around this. No one is going to incur the additional cost of flying to DTW and then make their way back across the border to Windsor.
Atlanta is obviously more likely, from at least 2 of WS’s 3 focus cities. SLC is a possibility from YYC due to the strong Morman connection along the north south Mormon corridor.
The Southwest Codeshare was stillborn due to the limitations of Southwest’s archaic IT systems and limitations within the SWAPA contract. There was a point in WS’s history where YYZ-BWI-FLL or YYC-SLC-PHX might have made sense, but by 2010, that train had long since left the station and WJ was operating all the flights themselves n/s.
Replacing N/S Service with one stop over a Delta hub, especially in the winter, opens the door wide open for the potential, (I purposefully didn’t use “prospective”), new entrants, (none of which are capitalized), all of which are desperate to figure out what to do with their airplanes from mid Oct thru mid May.


I would think the same holds true in the YYC-ATL market. For onward connections to more of the USA DTW is much better situated than ATL is.


And the same holds truer for the YYC-DTW market. MSP - and SEA and SLC, depending on your destination - are much better situated than DTW.

What ATL does offer is more connectivity to Latin America... both south of the US border and in the Florida area.
 
cumulushumilis
Posts: 140
Joined: Wed Jul 27, 2016 8:49 pm

Re: Delta and Westjet agree to form US-Canada JV

Thu Dec 07, 2017 7:20 pm

Dominion301 wrote:
BoeingGuy wrote:
Interesting, I haven’t yet seen one post speculating that this deal may also result in WS starting SEA and PDX. This has been expected for awhile but I would think a JV with DL makes it more likely.


Probably since WS already codeshare on DL's YYC/YEG/YVR/YYJ-SEA flights. While PDX is a DL focus city, I don't think this JV would be the reason for WS to launch PDX.


Perhaps maybe an upgauge in equipment or increased frequency more so from YYC,/YEG/YVR to SEA.
 
Dominion301
Posts: 795
Joined: Wed Jul 20, 2016 1:48 pm

Re: Delta and Westjet agree to form US-Canada JV

Thu Dec 07, 2017 7:31 pm

cumulushumilis wrote:
Dominion301 wrote:
BoeingGuy wrote:
Interesting, I haven’t yet seen one post speculating that this deal may also result in WS starting SEA and PDX. This has been expected for awhile but I would think a JV with DL makes it more likely.


Probably since WS already codeshare on DL's YYC/YEG/YVR/YYJ-SEA flights. While PDX is a DL focus city, I don't think this JV would be the reason for WS to launch PDX.


Perhaps maybe an upgauge in equipment or increased frequency more so from YYC,/YEG/YVR to SEA.


Those are all E75s already, even YYJ and all routes already compete with AS, so doubtful.
 
klm617
Posts: 1792
Joined: Sat Jul 04, 2015 8:57 pm

Re: Delta and Westjet agree to form US-Canada JV

Thu Dec 07, 2017 8:02 pm

jordanh wrote:
klm617 wrote:
jimbo737 wrote:
There is virtually no community of interest between Calgary and Detroit and therefore no local traffic. I doubt this will occur. WS already has seasonal Windsor - Calgary. The moment you cross then border, it attracts almost $50 in US fees and taxes. There is no way around this. No one is going to incur the additional cost of flying to DTW and then make their way back across the border to Windsor.
Atlanta is obviously more likely, from at least 2 of WS’s 3 focus cities. SLC is a possibility from YYC due to the strong Morman connection along the north south Mormon corridor.
The Southwest Codeshare was stillborn due to the limitations of Southwest’s archaic IT systems and limitations within the SWAPA contract. There was a point in WS’s history where YYZ-BWI-FLL or YYC-SLC-PHX might have made sense, but by 2010, that train had long since left the station and WJ was operating all the flights themselves n/s.
Replacing N/S Service with one stop over a Delta hub, especially in the winter, opens the door wide open for the potential, (I purposefully didn’t use “prospective”), new entrants, (none of which are capitalized), all of which are desperate to figure out what to do with their airplanes from mid Oct thru mid May.


I would think the same holds true in the YYC-ATL market. For onward connections to more of the USA DTW is much better situated than ATL is.


And the same holds truer for the YYC-DTW market. MSP - and SEA and SLC, depending on your destination - are much better situated than DTW.

What ATL does offer is more connectivity to Latin America... both south of the US border and in the Florida area.


And we can answer that by looking up the top international markets from YYC to see which hub suits the needs a Calagarians the best.
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
Bingo1
Posts: 176
Joined: Sat Dec 05, 2009 5:12 pm

Re: Delta and Westjet agree to form US-Canada JV

Thu Dec 07, 2017 8:03 pm

KSBOS wrote:
Boston-Calgary on WestJet would be a nice add. Hearing its in the works for 2018.


Seasonal I expect?
Planecrzy
 
lavalampluva
Posts: 682
Joined: Tue Jun 24, 2014 7:33 pm

Re: Delta and Westjet agree to form US-Canada JV

Thu Dec 07, 2017 8:03 pm

Seems like some would like WS to open a hub at DTW.
Remind me to send a thank you note to Mr. Boeing.

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