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BA 747 3 engine ferry PHX-LHR

Posted: Thu Dec 07, 2017 3:50 pm
by TUGMASTER
Didn't see anything posted yet on this....
Mods please delete if already posted.

Anyway, as per title says
BA will ferry G-CIVM PHX-LHR on 3 engines.
Planning currently underway for above flight.

Happy Landings

T

Re: BA 747 3 engine ferry PHX-LHR

Posted: Thu Dec 07, 2017 4:50 pm
by airzona11
The engine flameout was very loud. Very cool that the 747 can do that.

Re: BA 747 3 engine ferry PHX-LHR

Posted: Thu Dec 07, 2017 4:54 pm
by 71Zulu
This time without passengers? :D

Sent from my SM-N920T using Tapatalk

Re: BA 747 3 engine ferry PHX-LHR

Posted: Thu Dec 07, 2017 6:38 pm
by vorellanaj
71Zulu wrote:
This time without passengers? :D

Sent from my SM-N920T using Tapatalk


No aircraft can be granted for clearing takeoff in revenue service with an inoperative or missing engine.

In case of twins , AOG only (under FAA regulations, taking off a twin engined aircraft with one engine is illegal). Trijets and quads could to takeoff only to ferry for maintenance under special conditions and strict procedures.

Re: BA 747 3 engine ferry PHX-LHR

Posted: Thu Dec 07, 2017 6:45 pm
by dassal
vorellanaj wrote:
71Zulu wrote:
This time without passengers? :D

Sent from my SM-N920T using Tapatalk


No aircraft can be granted for clearing takeoff in revenue service with an inoperative or missing engine.

In case of twins , AOG only (under FAA regulations, taking off a twin engined aircraft with one engine is illegal). Trijets and quads could to takeoff only to ferry for maintenance under special conditions and strict procedures.


You are right; I guess 71Zulu is referring to BA 744 flight from LA to London when they lost one engine early in the flight and went Transatlantic with 3 operative engines. It happened few years ago!
Cheers
D

Re: BA 747 3 engine ferry PHX-LHR

Posted: Thu Dec 07, 2017 6:53 pm
by sgbroimp
And then there was the Connie, called by many in its day " the best three engine plane in the world".

Re: BA 747 3 engine ferry PHX-LHR

Posted: Thu Dec 07, 2017 7:09 pm
by flyPIT
sgbroimp wrote:
And then there was the Connie,


And yet again there is the other Connie, who's aircraft physically transition to 3 engine aircraft in flight!
Image
Image

Re: BA 747 3 engine ferry PHX-LHR

Posted: Thu Dec 07, 2017 11:34 pm
by Goodyear
Saw it fly over yesterday. Interesting...when was the last time BA did a 5 engine ferry?

Re: BA 747 3 engine ferry PHX-LHR

Posted: Fri Dec 08, 2017 12:00 am
by KVH68
I have seen a 747-400 being ferried with only 3 operating engines. The fan blades were removed from the damaged engine and an aerodynamic cover was placed over the center of the engine to prevent air going into the compressor section.

Re: BA 747 3 engine ferry PHX-LHR

Posted: Fri Dec 08, 2017 12:32 am
by 77west
vorellanaj wrote:
71Zulu wrote:
This time without passengers? :D

Sent from my SM-N920T using Tapatalk


No aircraft can be granted for clearing takeoff in revenue service with an inoperative or missing engine.

In case of twins , AOG only (under FAA regulations, taking off a twin engined aircraft with one engine is illegal). Trijets and quads could to takeoff only to ferry for maintenance under special conditions and strict procedures.


He was being sarcastic, referring to the BA 744 incident a few years ago where they lost an engine out of LAX I think, then carried on to LHR on 3. With passengers.

Re: BA 747 3 engine ferry PHX-LHR

Posted: Fri Dec 08, 2017 12:41 am
by Flighty
Generally speaking, the 744 seems to be a talented 3 engine performer, but what if they lose another engine after v1? Can a 744 really climb out on 2 engines?

Re: BA 747 3 engine ferry PHX-LHR

Posted: Fri Dec 08, 2017 1:01 am
by mpdpilot
This might be a stupid question, but how does an airline plan for a flight like this? Is there a 3 engine profile for flight planning?

Re: BA 747 3 engine ferry PHX-LHR

Posted: Fri Dec 08, 2017 1:19 am
by BawliBooch
KVH68 wrote:
I have seen a 747-400 being ferried with only 3 operating engines. The fan blades were removed from the damaged engine and an aerodynamic cover was placed over the center of the engine to prevent air going into the compressor section.


interesting article on the 5th engine ferry by Qantas.
How Qantas Ferried an Engine on the Wing of a 747

Flighty wrote:
Generally speaking, the 744 seems to be a talented 3 engine performer, but what if they lose another engine after v1? Can a 744 really climb out on 2 engines?

Since this was a ferry flight only, there would have been no passengers or bags - not sure about cargo. So weights would have been comfortably low for 2 engines to manage should that situation arise.

Re: BA 747 3 engine ferry PHX-LHR

Posted: Fri Dec 08, 2017 1:31 am
by rajincajun01
LH did a TATL flight after losing an engine just after takeoff from DEN-FRA earlier this year.

Re: BA 747 3 engine ferry PHX-LHR

Posted: Fri Dec 08, 2017 1:33 am
by speedbird52
Goodyear wrote:
Saw it fly over yesterday. Interesting...when was the last time BA did a 5 engine ferry?

BA Aircraft are not equipped to do 5 engine ferry flights.

Re: BA 747 3 engine ferry PHX-LHR

Posted: Fri Dec 08, 2017 1:37 am
by speedbird52
What happened to the article linked?

Re: BA 747 3 engine ferry PHX-LHR

Posted: Fri Dec 08, 2017 2:44 am
by atimp

Re: BA 747 3 engine ferry PHX-LHR

Posted: Fri Dec 08, 2017 2:45 am
by AR385
mpdpilot wrote:
This might be a stupid question, but how does an airline plan for a flight like this? Is there a 3 engine profile for flight planning?


The takeoff requieres a lot of planning, coordination and skill. Then there´s the fuel consumption to plan for, and many other issues regardind aircraft performance.

Re: BA 747 3 engine ferry PHX-LHR

Posted: Fri Dec 08, 2017 5:38 am
by reltney
Remember the Eastern L-1011 on a 2 engine ferry MEX-MIA in the 70s. Lost an engine on liftoff. Made it back....

Re: BA 747 3 engine ferry PHX-LHR

Posted: Fri Dec 08, 2017 5:50 am
by jetsetterusa

Re: BA 747 3 engine ferry PHX-LHR

Posted: Fri Dec 08, 2017 8:47 am
by vorellanaj
No GE 744 have V-Pods because the engine fan are too big to be fitted in a pod for ferry. I don't know if any PW 744 operator ordered V-Pod feature.

RR : 86in , PW 94in , GE 106in.

Re: BA 747 3 engine ferry PHX-LHR

Posted: Fri Dec 08, 2017 9:20 am
by 747classic
vorellanaj wrote:
No GE 744 have V-Pods because the engine fan are too big to be fitted in a pod for ferry. I don't know if any PW 744 operator ordered V-Pod feature.

RR : 86in , PW 94in , GE 106in.


No GE engines (-50E/E1/E2 and -80C2B series) were certified for fifth pod operation. Both GE engine types were designed to be split for (lower deck) transportation and all early 747/CF6 operators (KL, AF, LH, etc) had 74M and/or 74F in their fleets, able to transport a spare engine (no splitting required) at the main cargo deck.

See : viewtopic.php?t=770041#p11110281

Re: BA 747 3 engine ferry PHX-LHR

Posted: Fri Dec 08, 2017 9:42 am
by Viper911
flyPIT wrote:
sgbroimp wrote:
And then there was the Connie,


And yet again there is the other Connie, who's aircraft physically transition to 3 engine aircraft in flight!
Image
Image



Kalitta 747 on 3 engines? I saw that before :D



Viper911

Re: BA 747 3 engine ferry PHX-LHR

Posted: Fri Dec 08, 2017 11:01 am
by trijetsonly
747classic wrote:
vorellanaj wrote:
No GE 744 have V-Pods because the engine fan are too big to be fitted in a pod for ferry. I don't know if any PW 744 operator ordered V-Pod feature.

RR : 86in , PW 94in , GE 106in.


No GE engines (-50E/E1/E2 and -80C2B series) were certified for fifth pod operation. Both GE engine types were designed to be split for (lower deck) transportation and all early 747/CF6 operators (KL, AF, LH, etc) had 74M and/or 74F in their fleets, able to transport a spare engine (no splitting required) at the main cargo deck.

See : viewtopic.php?t=770041#p11110281



Slightly off-topic but GE CF6-50C engines could be transported as additional pod on the DC-10:
Image Image

Re: BA 747 3 engine ferry PHX-LHR

Posted: Fri Dec 08, 2017 1:31 pm
by Spacepope
trijetsonly wrote:
747classic wrote:
vorellanaj wrote:
No GE 744 have V-Pods because the engine fan are too big to be fitted in a pod for ferry. I don't know if any PW 744 operator ordered V-Pod feature.

RR : 86in , PW 94in , GE 106in.


No GE engines (-50E/E1/E2 and -80C2B series) were certified for fifth pod operation. Both GE engine types were designed to be split for (lower deck) transportation and all early 747/CF6 operators (KL, AF, LH, etc) had 74M and/or 74F in their fleets, able to transport a spare engine (no splitting required) at the main cargo deck.

See : viewtopic.php?t=770041#p11110281



Slightly off-topic but GE CF6-50C engines could be transported as additional pod on the DC-10:
Image Image


Engine ferry pods were available on the L-1011, VC-10, 707 and DC-8 as well.

Re: BA 747 3 engine ferry PHX-LHR

Posted: Fri Dec 08, 2017 2:54 pm
by Tristarsteve
This might be a stupid question, but how does an airline plan for a flight like this? Is there a 3 engine profile for flight planning?


I have twice been in the flight deck of a Tristar on a two engine ferry flight.
We had removed the fan blades, and boroscoped the other engines etc, and climbed on board.
There was no V1 speed. After rotate, the aircraft climbed slowly until it reached V2 and was safe. For about two minutes the aircraft would not have climbed on a single engine. But this was in the Arabian Gulf and the sea was warm :D
The aircraft were very light, minimum fuel, no catering, no containers, no water, no cabin crew.
The B744 does it much better. B744 will ferry SIN - DXB - LHR with no real problem. Except for an engine failure in SYD, BA will always 3 engine ferry a B744 back to LHR. It really saves time and money over shipping the new engine out to the broken aircraft.

Re: BA 747 3 engine ferry PHX-LHR

Posted: Fri Dec 08, 2017 3:40 pm
by DocLightning
airzona11 wrote:
The engine flameout was very loud. Very cool that the 747 can do that.


Bits of hot metal were ejected out the exhaust. This appears to have been some sort of contained failure. Bits of hot metal suggest that a spinny part inappropriately contacted a non-spinny part.

Re: BA 747 3 engine ferry PHX-LHR

Posted: Fri Dec 08, 2017 4:15 pm
by Western727
jetsetterusa wrote:


That's a good one. Thanks for sharing!

Re: BA 747 3 engine ferry PHX-LHR

Posted: Mon Dec 11, 2017 5:37 am
by kearnet
So did this not go as planned, because while driving through on my way to work, I was shocked to see this plane back at PHX so soon, this time on the North side with a ground vehicle driving around the nose. Looked like maybe it’s just landed. That was at 1PM today and it’s still parked there with air stairs on the starboard side now.

Re: BA 747 3 engine ferry PHX-LHR

Posted: Mon Dec 11, 2017 7:42 am
by Arion640
BA once had an engine shut down inflight on a 747 from LAX and the captain continued to Heathrow instead of diverting. He did eventually divert to MAN, and shortly after he was then suspended.

Re: BA 747 3 engine ferry PHX-LHR

Posted: Mon Dec 11, 2017 7:45 am
by TedToToe
DocLightning wrote:
This appears to have been some sort of contained failure. Bits of hot metal suggest that a spinny part inappropriately contacted a non-spinny part.

With all due respect Doc, this post belongs in the Technical/Operations forum!

Re: BA 747 3 engine ferry PHX-LHR

Posted: Mon Dec 11, 2017 12:51 pm
by airzona11
Still parked at PHX, now on the North side. Anyone know when it is leaving?

Re: BA 747 3 engine ferry PHX-LHR

Posted: Mon Dec 11, 2017 1:22 pm
by eamondzhang
rajincajun01 wrote:
LH did a TATL flight after losing an engine just after takeoff from DEN-FRA earlier this year.

Did they? I don't see any mentions in the news. Rather they did an IFSD in 2012 (on A346) when they just started their transatlantic journey; they chose to continue to Munich in that occasion (this one: http://avherald.com/h?article=452374ea&opt=0).

Michael

Re: BA 747 3 engine ferry PHX-LHR

Posted: Mon Dec 11, 2017 2:30 pm
by dtw2hyd
Why so much drama. Can't BA bring a spare engine and AOG team to finish repairs.

Or ferry it to VCV and say adios.

Re: BA 747 3 engine ferry PHX-LHR

Posted: Mon Dec 11, 2017 2:43 pm
by Nickd92
Arion640 wrote:
BA once had an engine shut down inflight on a 747 from LAX and the captain continued to Heathrow instead of diverting. He did eventually divert to MAN, and shortly after he was then suspended.


I believe they consulted BA ops who told him to continue and not the way you present that story.

Re: BA 747 3 engine ferry PHX-LHR

Posted: Mon Dec 11, 2017 2:47 pm
by CHI87LG
Indeed, the pilot talked to dispatch and they advised him to go as far as he could so he wouldn't have to dump 70 tons of fuel. Once they got to the Atlantic, conditions were not as favorable. They made it across the pond but didn't have enough fuel to make it to London, so they diverted.

The dust-up comes from the FAA declaring this unsafe, and the UK's CAA disagreeing. The pilot didn't do anything erroneous, he followed the directions he was given. It's not like he blew an engine, kept it a secret and flew a few hundred souls across the Atlantic.

It's BA 268. 2005. Feel free to look it up. Interesting occurrence.

Re: BA 747 3 engine ferry PHX-LHR

Posted: Mon Dec 11, 2017 3:19 pm
by chepos
The BA 744 in question is still in PHX, saw the plane while taxing for takeoff this am. Sitting at one of north pads.

Re: BA 747 3 engine ferry PHX-LHR

Posted: Mon Dec 11, 2017 3:20 pm
by Flighty
CHI87LG wrote:
Indeed, the pilot talked to dispatch and they advised him to go as far as he could so he wouldn't have to dump 70 tons of fuel. Once they got to the Atlantic, conditions were not as favorable. They made it across the pond but didn't have enough fuel to make it to London, so they diverted.

The dust-up comes from the FAA declaring this unsafe, and the UK's CAA disagreeing. The pilot didn't do anything erroneous, he followed the directions he was given. It's not like he blew an engine, kept it a secret and flew a few hundred souls across the Atlantic.

It's BA 268. 2005. Feel free to look it up. Interesting occurrence.


Can somebody remind us according to what regulation this is considered unsafe? Is a diversion required when a quad loses an engine? Is a twin required to divert when it is operating normally? What is the difference?

Re: BA 747 3 engine ferry PHX-LHR

Posted: Mon Dec 11, 2017 3:22 pm
by GalaxyFlyer
That’s not exactly right, either. No dispatch system in the U.K. or most foreign airlines. Dispatching is a US process. In the U.K., the crew makes the decision and consults with Maintenance as to options as part of the crew’s decision.

Secondly, the arrived in the U.K. with the planned fuel, but thought some of the fuel was unusable (trapped) due to a misunderstanding in how the override pumps work. MAN was a conservative but not necessary divert.


GF

Re: BA 747 3 engine ferry PHX-LHR

Posted: Mon Dec 11, 2017 3:49 pm
by rajincajun01
eamondzhang wrote:
rajincajun01 wrote:
LH did a TATL flight after losing an engine just after takeoff from DEN-FRA earlier this year.

Did they? I don't see any mentions in the news. Rather they did an IFSD in 2012 (on A346) when they just started their transatlantic journey; they chose to continue to Munich in that occasion (this one: http://avherald.com/h?article=452374ea&opt=0).

Michael


It happened a bit further into the flight than I remembered. Still flew nearly six hours on three engines. But here is the story: https://www.aeroinside.com/item/9128/lu ... -in-flight

Re: BA 747 3 engine ferry PHX-LHR

Posted: Mon Dec 11, 2017 9:33 pm
by eamondzhang
rajincajun01 wrote:
eamondzhang wrote:
rajincajun01 wrote:
LH did a TATL flight after losing an engine just after takeoff from DEN-FRA earlier this year.

Did they? I don't see any mentions in the news. Rather they did an IFSD in 2012 (on A346) when they just started their transatlantic journey; they chose to continue to Munich in that occasion (this one: http://avherald.com/h?article=452374ea&opt=0).

Michael


It happened a bit further into the flight than I remembered. Still flew nearly six hours on three engines. But here is the story: https://www.aeroinside.com/item/9128/lu ... -in-flight

I see, thought was the one I mentioned. But as that incident highlighted, this is not LH's first time doing this and it doesn't seems to catch regulators' eyes. So I assume it's pretty safe to do so.

Michael

Re: BA 747 3 engine ferry PHX-LHR

Posted: Mon Dec 11, 2017 11:48 pm
by cle757
Last I heard this aircraft was going to ferry PHX-YYZ-London, on 3 engines.I also heard they took the #3 engine fans apart and they are laying in the first class section of the aircraft.

Re: BA 747 3 engine ferry PHX-LHR

Posted: Mon Dec 11, 2017 11:50 pm
by BOAC1966
En route home tonight as BA9174 via BDA!

Re: BA 747 3 engine ferry PHX-LHR

Posted: Mon Dec 11, 2017 11:58 pm
by TUGMASTER
Yep,
PHX-YYZ-LHR was the planned routing.
But now going via BDA instead.
Specially Qualified captain required for 3 engine take off only.
Rest of flight can be conducted by regular line crew.
Engineers thoroughly checking everything on the good 3 engines, including horoscope checks.
Making sure they're all 100% before the fight home.
Believe flight number will be BA9174E...?
Aircraft is currently enroute BDA .

Home soon.

Re: BA 747 3 engine ferry PHX-LHR

Posted: Tue Dec 12, 2017 12:07 am
by 71Zulu
Didn't seem to affect altitude or speed much ..

http://flightaware.com/live/flight/BAW9 ... /KPHX/TXKF

And I just looked up the Bermuda airport info on airnav and it says no published instrument approaches, is that right?



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Re: BA 747 3 engine ferry PHX-LHR

Posted: Tue Dec 12, 2017 12:19 am
by 77west
TUGMASTER wrote:
Yep,
including horoscope checks.
Home soon.


Horoscope - you dont want to know what I pictured when reading that line! :lol:

Re: BA 747 3 engine ferry PHX-LHR

Posted: Tue Dec 12, 2017 12:21 am
by seat55a
TUGMASTER wrote:
horoscope checks.


Astral navigation?

Re: BA 747 3 engine ferry PHX-LHR

Posted: Tue Dec 12, 2017 12:22 am
by TUGMASTER
77west wrote:
TUGMASTER wrote:
Yep,
including horoscope checks.
Home soon.


Horoscope - you dont want to know what I pictured when reading that line! :lol:



Bloody spellcheck

Re: BA 747 3 engine ferry PHX-LHR

Posted: Tue Dec 12, 2017 12:22 am
by smokeybandit
I'll put that on my list of potential band names if I ever discover a long lost musical talent.

"Three Engine Ferry"

Re: BA 747 3 engine ferry PHX-LHR

Posted: Tue Dec 12, 2017 12:30 am
by GalaxyFlyer
There’s ILSs in BDA, 12 and 30. I doubt they just laid the fan in first class.

GF