gzm
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Re: Has Greece disappeared as a transatlantic destination?

Wed Jan 03, 2018 5:17 pm

It was the hangar of Olympic airlines,or to put it differently,the official hangar of the airport,necessary and obligatory for its very operation. Aegean will not operate transcontinental services for various reasons,one of them being the lack of such infrastructure,not the lack of equipment. As you can see,this is not favoured,due to various deals and agreements.Now,about the stored 747 this is indeed a sad sight.For one thing,the parking fees there are minimal.For another,it is the little unofficial scrapyard,hidden from all, except from those who are taking off...
 
tomcat
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Re: Has Greece disappeared as a transatlantic destination?

Wed Jan 03, 2018 9:15 pm

aerolimani wrote:
The lack of big tourist infrastructure is what keeps a lot of people coming back to Greece, year after year.


The opposite is true to. The absence of big tourist infrastructure is what keeps a lot of people coming back to Greece, year after year. So much that some people end up moving to Greece for good even before retirement.

Freshside3 wrote:
Being more used to Spain or France (which are way overbuilt and crowded, at least in the Mediterranean), it is always shocking for me to see how "virgin" a lot of the Greek coast is.

That's the beauty of Greece and it would be foolish to follow the ugly Spanish example. I personally enjoy Spain a lot, but I've never set a foot on its overbuilt southern coast. That's not Spain anymore, it's just a concrete coastline.

Regarding the Greek ferries, I enjoy them a lot. To me, they are an integral part of a TRAVEL in Greece (sometimes to Greece as well, starting from the Italian Adriatic coast). On board the ferries, I enjoy reading / watching the constantly changing scenery (the Aegean see is full of islands/islets/rocks), eating some very decent food and on the longer overnight crossing, I book a private cabin which is always clean and comfortable. Note that the ferries are needed anyway to supply the islands and allow local travelers/tourists to take their car in & out the islands, so they will always be there whatever the competition from the air.

Drifting back to the topic, it's clear that the very seasonal nature of the air travel to Greece make it unprofitable to operate year-round TATL flights. But there is a will to make Greece a year-round touristic destination. For sure, it will take time, especially to change the perception that it is a summer destination only (do you know that there are ski resorts in Greece as south as Mycenae?). On top of that, there is another emerging trend in the Greek economy, it is that of local businesses turning more and more to the export market. In the long run, it can only increase the demand for year round air travel out of Athens. Finally, Greece seems more decided than ever to allow oil & gas exploration activities. The recent discoveries of substantial gas deposits in the eastern Mediterranean sea has raised the hope that Greece (south of Crete, Ionian sea) could hold valuable deposits as well. There are indications that oil companies like Total or Exxon might be willing to invest in offshore exploration in Greece. In the long term, this might generate an extra demand for air travel to Athens. Wait and see.
 
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aerolimani
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Re: Has Greece disappeared as a transatlantic destination?

Wed Jan 03, 2018 9:45 pm

tomcat wrote:
aerolimani wrote:
The lack of big tourist infrastructure is what keeps a lot of people coming back to Greece, year after year.


The opposite is true to. The absence of big tourist infrastructure is what keeps a lot of people coming back to Greece, year after year. So much that some people end up moving to Greece for good even before retirement.

Isn't that what I said? :confused:

( lack = absence )
 
tomcat
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Re: Has Greece disappeared as a transatlantic destination?

Wed Jan 03, 2018 10:02 pm

aerolimani wrote:
tomcat wrote:
aerolimani wrote:
The lack of big tourist infrastructure is what keeps a lot of people coming back to Greece, year after year.


The opposite is true to. The absence of big tourist infrastructure is what keeps a lot of people coming back to Greece, year after year. So much that some people end up moving to Greece for good even before retirement.

Isn't that what I said? :confused:

( lack = absence )


I confirm that this is exactly what you said. Somehow I read something else. I think I need holidays. What about Greece in the winter ;-) ?
 
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AirCbp
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Re: Has Greece disappeared as a destination?

Wed Jan 03, 2018 11:30 pm

SCQ83 wrote:
IndianicWorld wrote:
alan3 wrote:
They also tried it in in 2015 with SkyGreece Airlines, which was a huge failure.

Any plans for Aegean (A3) to go long-haul?

Greece hasn't had its own long haul airline since Olympic... will it ever happen again?


I tend to see A3 as a well run airline, which makes anything as crazy as that as a no-go for them.

It’s a recipe for red ink that really won’t be beneficial.


I have the feeling that A3 is one of the reasons that ATH has so little long-haul, ironically.

A3 collaborates quite well with LH and makes transfers via MUC/FRA/ZRH quite easy and quick. And that opens way more options (e.g. Boston-Munich-Thessaloniki or whatever is the city-pair; a ATH-NYC would always require a connection somewhere for any other city pair).

Also geography is critical here. US-Greece is almost as long as it can get to fly to Europe (let's compare it with US-Portugal; Greece is easily 6 hours more for a return flight). Then because of this geography, to connect between the US and Greece, you can connect without backtrack pretty much everywhere in Europe.

If you compare Portugal and Greece [...]


But Portugal has TP flying short-, medium- and long-haul from their LIS hub, connecting three continents. Nothing Aegaean is doing (not that it is not doing a great job in Europe, they're even flying ATH-LIS and ATH-OPO), it's long-haul that is lacking.
 
skyduster
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Re: Has Greece disappeared as a destination?

Mon Jan 08, 2018 8:41 am

Draken21fx wrote:

In regards to the booming tourism in Greece I disagree slightly. Due to the developments in countries like Turkey, Tunisia and Egypt a lot of Europeans prefer more "safe" destinations. Greece's tourism is by no means increasing due to the better organisation/marketing but due to geopolitical developments in the region. If you compare the numbers of 2015 to 2016 as an example Spain's arrivals have increased by 10% and Greece's by "only" 5% (and Spain has already triple the arrivals compared to Greece). Notable in the same year Turkey and Tunisia lost 25% and Egypt 5%.


That was an exceptional year for Spain because of Turkey/Tunisia/Egypt. Greek tourism grew, but it also took a hit from the refugee crisis (or, media coverage of the refugee crisis, which as a tad overblown). The fact that it still managed to grow 5% suggests strong demand for Greece, regardless of organizatiom/marketing. In 2017, hotel and flight reservations filled up much earlier in the year than they did in 2016, and 2017 is expected (data is still preliminary) to be another record year for Greece, despite Turkey's recovery. (Also, Turkey and Greece don't compete for all the same tourists...and there is a bit of feeding off each others' tourism industries, as well as a recent massive surge of secular Turkish tourists visiting Greece).

Over the longer-term, Greece and Spain remain similar in tourism growth, extremely similar tourism models, same tourism markets, and Greece remains more touristy on a per capita basis (both population and area-wise).

To answer OP's question:

UA, AA, and DL all have seasonal routes from New York and Philadelphia to Athens. EK has a year-round service EWR-ATH-DXB. From Canada, both TS and AC (or RV rather) have seasonal service to ATH from both YUL and YYZ. Before the financial crisis, DL had year-round JFK-ATH and seasonal ATL-ATH. As others have pointed out, it would be a mistake to assume that the financial crisis has affected tourism, because tourism figures are booming. They went from roughly 13-15 million international annual visitors in the years before the crisis, to an expected new height of 30 million in 2017 (including ~2 million net cruiseship visitors...thus not double counting those that visited by cruiseship and spent a hotel night on land). Why DL made its JFK route seasonal and dropped ATL-ATH, has more to do with fewer Greeks traveling abroad than people visiting Greece (why would the financial crisis affect visitors?), in addition to probably some other factors (maybe some other route somewhere competed with ATL-ATH for connecting traffic, who knows).

Other long-hauls to/from ATH: CA has year-round service ATH-PEK, and TR (LCC subsidiary of SQ) has year-round to SIN. Greece's business/trade/FDI is overwhelmingly from within Europe (Russia included) or with the Middle East. And ATH is extremely well-connected to the rest of Europe, and very well connected to the ME as well. China has been increasingly investing in Greece lately -and aggressively so- so that may explain the PEK flights, in addition to it being the only northeast Asian hub with flights to ATH (and both A3 and CA being Star Alliance), so it's filling a gap. The US is not a major trade or investment partner. Greece is, however, a relatively popular leisure destination for Americans (I think it ranks like 20th country for Americans to visit [similar ranking to Thailand], which is a lot, for a small country at long-haul distance), and the number of Americans visiting is growing. And also contrary to popular belief, Greece is not a significant VFR destination for Americans. Leisure, yes. VFR, no.
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Freshside3
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Re: Has Greece disappeared as a destination?

Mon Jan 08, 2018 10:15 am

skyduster wrote:
Draken21fx wrote:

In regards to the booming tourism in Greece I disagree slightly. Due to the developments in countries like Turkey, Tunisia and Egypt a lot of Europeans prefer more "safe" destinations. Greece's tourism is by no means increasing due to the better organisation/marketing but due to geopolitical developments in the region. If you compare the numbers of 2015 to 2016 as an example Spain's arrivals have increased by 10% and Greece's by "only" 5% (and Spain has already triple the arrivals compared to Greece). Notable in the same year Turkey and Tunisia lost 25% and Egypt 5%.


That was an exceptional year for Spain because of Turkey/Tunisia/Egypt. Greek tourism grew, but it also took a hit from the refugee crisis (or, media coverage of the refugee crisis, which as a tad overblown). The fact that it still managed to grow 5% suggests strong demand for Greece, regardless of organizatiom/marketing. In 2017, hotel and flight reservations filled up much earlier in the year than they did in 2016, and 2017 is expected (data is still preliminary) to be another record year for Greece, despite Turkey's recovery. (Also, Turkey and Greece don't compete for all the same tourists...and there is a bit of feeding off each others' tourism industries, as well as a recent massive surge of secular Turkish tourists visiting Greece).

Over the longer-term, Greece and Spain remain similar in tourism growth, extremely similar tourism models, same tourism markets, and Greece remains more touristy on a per capita basis (both population and area-wise).

To answer OP's question:

UA, AA, and DL all have seasonal routes from New York and Philadelphia to Athens. EK has a year-round service EWR-ATH-DXB. From Canada, both TS and AC (or RV rather) have seasonal service to ATH from both YUL and YYZ. Before the financial crisis, DL had year-round JFK-ATH and seasonal ATL-ATH. As others have pointed out, it would be a mistake to assume that the financial crisis has affected tourism, because tourism figures are booming. They went from roughly 13-15 million international annual visitors in the years before the crisis, to an expected new height of 30 million in 2017 (including ~2 million net cruiseship visitors...thus not double counting those that visited by cruiseship and spent a hotel night on land). Why DL made its JFK route seasonal and dropped ATL-ATH, has more to do with fewer Greeks traveling abroad than people visiting Greece (why would the financial crisis affect visitors?), in addition to probably some other factors (maybe some other route somewhere competed with ATL-ATH for connecting traffic, who knows).

Other long-hauls to/from ATH: CA has year-round service ATH-PEK, and TR (LCC subsidiary of SQ) has year-round to SIN. Greece's business/trade/FDI is overwhelmingly from within Europe (Russia included) or with the Middle East. And ATH is extremely well-connected to the rest of Europe, and very well connected to the ME as well. China has been increasingly investing in Greece lately -and aggressively so- so that may explain the PEK flights, in addition to it being the only northeast Asian hub with flights to ATH (and both A3 and CA being Star Alliance), so it's filling a gap. The US is not a major trade or investment partner. Greece is, however, a relatively popular leisure destination for Americans (I think it ranks like 20th country for Americans to visit [similar ranking to Thailand], which is a lot, for a small country at long-haul distance), and the number of Americans visiting is growing. And also contrary to popular belief, Greece is not a significant VFR destination for Americans. Leisure, yes. VFR, no.


There are some pockets of VFR travel for Greece......namely NYC, BOS, ORD, TPA.......but less significant amounts for the rest of the country. The number of tourists in California, for example, well outnumber the diaspora travelers there. But then there is also another demographic involved----Gay travel to Mykonos.

As for ATL-ATH.......it has to do with the general Greek dislike for Atlanta, more than anywhere else. I had mentioned a few months ago, about these three factors. Some of you will come up with the obvious conclusion of ATL getting the 1996 Olympics over ATH(which is part of the deal). But also things before and after, also figure into the Greek animosity against Atlanta. During the swine/avian flu epidemics, a man was advised not to travel, by his doctor. He instead, defied doctor's orders, and took the ATL-ATH flight on DL.

There was the potential of infecting thousands of people, which fortunately, never happened. With it common knowledge that the Center of Disease Control being in Atlanta, there was a general presumption in Greece that the CDC could have prevented this man from traveling.

But then there was also racism back in the early 1920s. Not only did the KKK target Black people, but also immigrants.....and many Greeks came to Georgia following the events in Smyrna(now Izmir)in 1922. The AHEPA, which is(for all practical purposes)the Greek-American equivalent of the NAACP, was founded in Atlanta.

There really is no local market for ATL-ATH........and people in Greece avoid ATL for "political correctness" reasons(just as some Greeks won't do Germany or Turkey, either). Essentially, the function of ATL-ATH was to feed connections. That's all. No other reason.

As for Corporate business travel to Greece, there is some by Lockheed-Martin, Starbucks, Microsoft, Philip Morris, and Raytheon.........which is few and far between.
 
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OA260
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Re: Has Greece disappeared as a destination?

Mon Jan 08, 2018 8:38 pm

Freshside3 wrote:

As for ATL-ATH.......it has to do with the general Greek dislike for Atlanta, more than anywhere else. I had mentioned a few months ago, about these three factors. Some of you will come up with the obvious conclusion of ATL getting the 1996 Olympics over ATH(which is part of the deal).



Never heard that even mentioned by my own family , friends and business contacts ever. Most Greeks dont care. 1996 was a pipe dream that the Greeks were never going to be able to deliver. Indeed many these days complain about how 2004 killed them and still paying for it. The American Greeks may have some issues with it but Greeks dont !
 
Freshside3
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Re: Has Greece disappeared as a transatlantic destination?

Tue Jan 09, 2018 6:19 am

Here is some historical background about racism against Greeks in the USA.....and particularly mentions Atlanta a few times.
http://www.pappaspost.com/forgotten-his ... the-ahepa/
 
Blerg
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Re: Has Greece disappeared as a transatlantic destination?

Tue Jan 09, 2018 12:30 pm

There is also another reason why Aegean is not rushing to introduce widebodies: cost.
The Greek government keeps on introducing more and more taxes which are becoming a heavy burden, not only for Aegean, but for most Greek companies. Aegean did say on a few occasions that they plan on flying longhaul but it seems those plans have been postponed... indefinitely.

Aegean did not have it easy. They were pushed out of Cyprus, they had to deal with Ryanair and Volotea opening their bases at ATH, there are more and more space issues at the airport and so on. I think they will not consider any long-haul flights until Athens is expanded.

As for Olympic, initially it was used only as the Q400 operator on regional flights. However, due to rising GDS expenses, many routes that are operated by the A320 family were transferred to OA. The latest to get this 'privilege' was Larnaca. This is an issue because OA is not a member of Star Alliance so people actually have to book on the code-share. All regional flights, even those operated by Aegean, get the OA catering.
 
skyduster
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Re: Has Greece disappeared as a destination?

Wed Jan 10, 2018 6:16 am

Freshside3 wrote:
As for Corporate business travel to Greece, there is some by Lockheed-Martin, Starbucks, Microsoft, Philip Morris, and Raytheon.........which is few and far between.


Correct. Greece is a major arms buyer, but -more importantly- an arms and aerospace manufacturer that provides specialized parts for Lockheed, Raytheon, Boeing, Alenia, Airbus, EADS, and so on. Few people know this, even Greeks themselves. It's not a huge chunk of GDP, but a handful of small and mid-size Greek firms fill this niche in the West's/US/European aerospace and arms industrial complex. Besides that, you're right: trade with the US is small. And so is FDI, which (both inbound and outbound) Greece does more with Europe and the Middle East and increasingly China.

Freshside3 wrote:
As for ATL-ATH.......it has to do with the general Greek dislike for Atlanta, more than anywhere else. I had mentioned a few months ago, about these three factors. Some of you will come up with the obvious conclusion of ATL getting the 1996 Olympics over ATH(which is part of the deal). But also things before and after, also figure into the Greek animosity against Atlanta. During the swine/avian flu epidemics, a man was advised not to travel, by his doctor. He instead, defied doctor's orders, and took the ATL-ATH flight on DL.

There was the potential of infecting thousands of people, which fortunately, never happened. With it common knowledge that the Center of Disease Control being in Atlanta, there was a general presumption in Greece that the CDC could have prevented this man from traveling.

But then there was also racism back in the early 1920s. Not only did the KKK target Black people, but also immigrants.....and many Greeks came to Georgia following the events in Smyrna(now Izmir)in 1922. The AHEPA, which is(for all practical purposes)the Greek-American equivalent of the NAACP, was founded in Atlanta.

There really is no local market for ATL-ATH........and people in Greece avoid ATL for "political correctness" reasons(just as some Greeks won't do Germany or Turkey, either). Essentially, the function of ATL-ATH was to feed connections. That's all. No other reason.


Well, I don't know how much of this is true. Firstly, Greeks no longer care about the 96 Olympics, which was over 20 years ago. By the time of Athens 2004, Greek public opinion had become more divided on hosting the Olympics (I'll admit, I'm basing this on anecdotal evidence), versus the majority-support for the 96 bid back in 1990.

And it wasn't just the KKK, but American Wasps in general -even in the Northern industrial cities- resented all Southern and Eastern Europeans back in the early 20th century, and even some Northern Europeans (like the Irish and even the Germans). The Prohibition was -in large part- passed because of xenophobic and puritanical Wasp anxiety of "drunk" Europeans...the Irish and Germans had their beer halls, the Italians drank wine, while Anglo-Saxon cultures (US, UK, Aus, etc) view alcohol as a forbidden fruit (ironically, they're the ones that binge drink)...and this gave American politicians a tool to pander to working class Wasps, much like demonizing Mexicans and Central Americans works today. Some Greek-Americans may be wary of the South for this reason, but people in Greece don't know this history. Greeks view the American South as a quaint, backwardly traditional part of America that comically lives in a conjoined-twin situation with the famously progressive blue-state/big-city America...in other words, they have the standard European view of America.

I'm not an airline industry insider like some posters here seem to be, but knowing quite a bit about the tourism industry, I can say with certainty that DL's ATL-ATH flights were not aimed at the local Atlanta-area market, nor in Atlanta as a destination for Greek travelers. ATL is DL's biggest hub, and there are -or at least have been- lots of "nonsensical" South European leisure destinations from ATL like VCE (which is still around) and NCE at one point (axed, like ATH), and -if Wikipedia is correct- soon to launch LIS. ATL is just the hub where people from, say, Texas or California or Florida can connect. Also, folks from Latin America -although most of them need a transit visa. Or, folks from Europe headed to the Southeastern/Southern/Southwestern US or to the Caribbean and Latin America. Though, Greek travelers at that time would have needed a visa to transit in the US. Also, JFK is a much more sensible hub for ATH-bound Americans (and US-bound Greeks)...add fewer Greeks traveling due to the financial crisis...it looks like there were several reasons DL felt the route wasn't a money-maker. Add the plethora of competition not just from AC and CO (though not sure if these were launched while ATL-ATH was still in effect), and-most obviously- from US to ATH via any European hub.

Freshside3 wrote:
There are some pockets of VFR travel for Greece......namely NYC, BOS, ORD, TPA.......but less significant amounts for the rest of the country. The number of tourists in California, for example, well outnumber the diaspora travelers there. But then there is also another demographic involved----Gay travel to Mykonos.


VFR travel from those four US metros is no where nearly as significant as airliners.net posters seem to think it is. This misconception just needs to die. When OA was serving many of these routes, as well as JNB, MEL, and SYD, it was subsidized by the Greek taxpayer (good riddance to OA, and thank God for EU anti-state-aid policy [though it's not perfectly enforced]). AC/TS/UA/DL/AA are all in on the leisure market; Greece's tourism industry has grown exponentially, and is becoming increasingly popular with Americans, partly due to Athens-Piraeus being a major starting or end point for Med cruises (and Americans loooove their cruises). EK's EWR-ATH year-round flightts rely partly on New York-Dubai passengers to fill those planes.

LGBT travelers are such a small niche. Mykonos received in 2017 -I'm guessing- maybe a million non-Greek visitors a year? And I'm probably being generous. (Mykonos airport handled about a million arrivals + departures in 2016, so that's 500K visitors arriving by air, and perhaps another 500K arrived by ferry?) That's one in 30 foreign visitors to Greece, not counting cruise passengers. Mykonos might be one of the most famous Greek destinations outside of Europe, but Europeans (Russians included) are 90% of Greece's visitors, and far more tourists visit Crete, Rhodes, Corfu, Kos, the Chalkidiki peninsula, Zakynthos, etc... not that these are all mutually exclusive). And -contrary to popular belief- LGBT travelers are a small niche within Mykonos. Most of the island caters to mainstream tourism, not LGBT-specific.
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OA260
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Re: Has Greece disappeared as a transatlantic destination?

Thu Jan 11, 2018 12:08 am

2017 Passenger Traffic

A Historic Record of 13.2 million passengers

6% increase in traffic

International passenger traffic increased significantly by 15%

AEGEAN and Olympic Air passenger traffic increased by 6% in 2017. For the first time in the airlines’ history, the number of passengers surpassed the 13 million mark. More specifically, a historic record of 13.2 million passengers were carried; 750 thousand more than the previous year. It is worth mentioning that the increase in traffic is entirely due to the improved utilization of the network, since the number of flights operated in 2017 was not higher than in 2016.

Passengers traveled in the international network, which continues to be the main growth driver, amounted to 7.3 million passengers, recording an annual increase of 9%. On the other hand, despite the increased number of competitors, domestic traffic also increased, reaching 5.9 million passengers compared to 5.7 million in 2016, with frequent and appealing fare offers leading to higher load factors.

The strengthening of the Athens network has been the main focus of investment for yet another year. More specifically, international passenger traffic increased by 15%, while total traffic from AIA increased by 9%, with AEGEAN surpassing 10 million passengers for the first time, thus contributing to the traffic and tourist movement of the airport and the city of Athens.

In 2017, AEGEAN achieved historically high load factors, as a result of its successful commercial policy and efficient network management. Specifically, the load factor rate for the entire domestic and international network increased to 83%, compared to 77% in the previous year.

https://en.about.aegeanair.com/media-ce ... toys-2017/
 
nomorerjs
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Re: Has Greece disappeared as a transatlantic destination?

Thu Jan 11, 2018 12:39 am

Waiting for our teen posters in Michigan to say DL and Wayne County are holding back the largest and most profitable route from ATH to the US: DTW!
 
questions
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Re: Has Greece disappeared as a transatlantic destination?

Thu Jan 11, 2018 12:47 am

Did ATH miss an opportunity to have built a truly global transit hub similar to IST and DXB? Could a well run airline have made that happen (obviously before the growth of TK, EK, QR and EY)?
 
Cunard
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Re: Has Greece disappeared as a transatlantic destination?

Thu Jan 11, 2018 1:00 am

questions wrote:
Did ATH miss an opportunity to have built a truly global transit hub similar to IST and DXB? Could a well run airline have made that happen (obviously before the growth of TK, EK, QR and EY)?


If you look back through the posts that question has already been asked and answered already and in great detail as well!
 
Blerg
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Re: Has Greece disappeared as a transatlantic destination?

Thu Jan 11, 2018 7:16 am

questions wrote:
Did ATH miss an opportunity to have built a truly global transit hub similar to IST and DXB? Could a well run airline have made that happen (obviously before the growth of TK, EK, QR and EY)?


Before Athens can dream of becoming a global hub it must first become a regional one. Aegean has been actively working on that as each year they were selecting key markets in which to expand and in which to consolidate their position. In Western Europe the first one was Italy where today Aegean serves around 10 destinations! After Italy came Spain and France where the airline added a lot of capacity in recent years.

Aegean has been growing in the east as well as they have built a really nice set of destinations: Yerevan, Tbilisi, Tel Aviv, Beirut, Amman, Alexandria, Cairo, Tehran, Riyadh, Jeddah...

They are getting there but it's not easy having Turkish Airlines and Pegasus as your next door neighbours.
 
Freshside3
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Re: Has Greece disappeared as a transatlantic destination?

Sat Jan 13, 2018 1:23 am

nomorerjs wrote:
Waiting for our teen posters in Michigan to say DL and Wayne County are holding back the largest and most profitable route from ATH to the US: DTW!

You would think, by this time, that either AA or UA would have sensibly started the ORD-ATH trip already, but no.....neither has taken this flight seriously.

DL certainly has an opportunity, by seizing the moment, and getting DTW-ATH. In some aspects, not as good as ORD....but in others, certainly better........so a "wash"......but the fact of the matter, there is a second corridor, between STL and PIT, of viable business to Greece. The airlines are stuck in the mentality of "the Northeast is the only meaningful US market to Greece", and "adding more London and Frankfurt trips, and pawning them over to the partner carriers will fix any capacity issues for the rest of the country".

Even if they have to axe one of the JFK trips to start DTW service, it would be worth it. NYC does have more people(in actual numbers) that go to Greece; however, the prices there are cheap. The yield factor is indeed higher from the Midwest.

Also: (1) Much like ORD, they can connect some of the mid-sized and smaller markets, which don't have flights to the NYC airports......(2) Arabs......big population in the Detroit Metro area, and ATH could serve as a connection point...... (3) Canadians.........either comparable(or sometimes easier) than using YYZ.

DTW is one of the few hubs which currently doesn't have service to ATH, and can possibly pull it off....along with ORD, BOS and IAD..........having a trip from MSP, DFW, IAH, PHX, etc. would lose money. Ironically, two cities that ATH airport publicly said they wanted flights to, are SFO and LAX, which also fall in that latter category.

But it would be no big surprise that the next USA-Greece flight will be more of the tried-and-true JFK-ATH.
Last edited by Freshside3 on Sat Jan 13, 2018 1:51 am, edited 2 times in total.
 
Jshank83
Posts: 1740
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Re: Has Greece disappeared as a transatlantic destination?

Sat Jan 13, 2018 1:41 am

^DL doesn't run ATH-ATL so wouldn't that happen before ATH-DTW?
 
nomorerjs
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Re: Has Greece disappeared as a transatlantic destination?

Sat Jan 13, 2018 2:35 am

Jshank83 wrote:
^DL doesn't run ATH-ATL so wouldn't that happen before ATH-DTW?


This is a long standing joke on this forum. DTW hates ATL, ORD, YYZ and other airports keeping DTW down. And especially hatred to DL, who is the main reason.

We all know ORD-ATH has large seasonal VFR traffic, but the DTW fan club claims every rout out of ORD has 10x the potential at DTW, even though the population, demographics, and business say orherwise.

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