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qf789
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Fri Jan 05, 2018 11:41 am

Did anyone happen to get a picture of the QF 747 that diverted to DTW

http://theqantassource.com/qantas-b747- ... iversions/
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TryToFlySomeday
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Fri Jan 05, 2018 12:10 pm

klm617 wrote:
2Holer4Longhaul wrote:
TryToFlySomeday wrote:
Ikr. I love Detroit as a suburban metropolis, and Michigan as a whole. But klm617 is filled with nonsense.

Whatever can come to DTW will come, but only if it’s predicted to be profitable. TK to IST and DL to HKG is all I can see internationally for now. Maybe in 12 years we’ll see that DTW will reach the level ORD and YYZ is at. But not anytime earlier than 2030

TK is actually one of the few exceptions, because it is strangely invulnerable to losses.


The problem I have with TK is that there would be no gain of service as they would drive RJ out if the market something EK would likely not do if they started DTW-DXB

TK's a better fit for DTW though. RJ may be loyal but it's not about loyalty. It's about making money from routes that benefit passengers.

TK would connect people to all the same markets as RJ, daily, without the stopover in YUL. (RJ only is 2x weekly.)

TK would also provide connections to places like KHI, ISB, LHE, DAC, DEL, and BOM. The first three of which have nonstops from YYZ, 1-stops from ORD, and a ridiculous 2-stop from DTW. (Considering the Pakistani community in DTW is quite noticeable now, not to the scale of ORD/YYZ, but still there.)
Hi, I'm TryToFlySomeday. A guy who likes to analyze airlines, and loves road trips & airplane trips. Founder of the Roadgeeking Section and Pakistan Aviation Threads.

American-born Pakistani based in ORD. Favorite cities: ORD / GRR / DTW
 
dtw9
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Fri Jan 05, 2018 12:52 pm

qf789 wrote:
Did anyone happen to get a picture of the QF 747 that diverted to DTW

http://theqantassource.com/qantas-b747- ... iversions/

Head on over to Michigan planespotting on Facebook. They have a thread on it and a not so clear picture of it at the D conciurse
 
PSU.DTW.SCE
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Fri Jan 05, 2018 1:52 pm

kitplane01 wrote:
flymco753 wrote:
kitplane01 wrote:
What is the current gate situation at Detroit? Could a new entrant find gate space at Detroit? I don't recall seeing any empty gates.
Plenty of open gates, there should be a terminal expansion coming soon at the D Concourse, at that point I think it'll give new entrants more room to have a gate or 2 to themselves.

On top of that, I think when the new gates are added, NK might take a few, I would hope they consolidate themselves at the north end of the terminal and push AA down to the mid section. Although I'd like to see a Concourse E extension from the south end and add 5 gates, all for NK.


I'm sorry but minor sure I understood. Does this mean there will be open gate after the terminal expansion, or that there are open gates and will be even more after the terminal expansion?

The North Terminal has 27 gates currently. 21 gates are under preferential use agreements (AA -7, UA - 5, NK - 3, WN -4, F9 -1, B6 -1. The other 6 gates are common use which include the 5 FIS gates + 1 non-FIS gate. LH, RJ, and AS use the common-use gates and NK is frequent user of the common-use gates for anything needing FIS or also when they have more aircraft on the gates beyond their preferential use gates.

There is ample gate space and the only time they even come close to being used is for overnight RON and the morning first flights but a lot of that is driven by parking aircraft on the gates. There are times in the middle of the day, particularly late-morning and early afternoon there may only be 1-2 aircraft at the entire terminal.

There is not a terminal expansion project per-say, but there is a project to add 4 additional gates to the existing building shell/terminal envelope. The old Berry Terminal demolition is underway and once complete they will be adding 3 narrowbody gates to the north end of Concourse D plus about 5-6 hardstand/RON parking positions.
Once the LC Smith terminal demolition occurs they will add 1 additional widebody-FIS gate on the south end of D plus more optimal RON parking/hardstand positions there as well.
They aren't expanding the actual footprint of the building, but able to expand the ramp space add add loading bridges in spaces that were previously blocked by the old terminal buildings.

They project these 31 gates will be able to accomodate the 20 year traffic projections without further expansion. They do have the ability to convert 2 additional gates to FIS capable on the south end of D with some minor renovation work if needed.
 
klm617
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Fri Jan 05, 2018 3:34 pm

TryToFlySomeday wrote:
klm617 wrote:
2Holer4Longhaul wrote:
TK is actually one of the few exceptions, because it is strangely invulnerable to losses.


The problem I have with TK is that there would be no gain of service as they would drive RJ out if the market something EK would likely not do if they started DTW-DXB

TK's a better fit for DTW though. RJ may be loyal but it's not about loyalty. It's about making money from routes that benefit passengers.

TK would connect people to all the same markets as RJ, daily, without the stopover in YUL. (RJ only is 2x weekly.)

TK would also provide connections to places like KHI, ISB, LHE, DAC, DEL, and BOM. The first three of which have nonstops from YYZ, 1-stops from ORD, and a ridiculous 2-stop from DTW. (Considering the Pakistani community in DTW is quite noticeable now, not to the scale of ORD/YYZ, but still there.)



EK can give DTW all that plus a much more stable country to connect at and not hurt the RJ traffic at Detroit. When you add with a subtraction that's not really adding so I'd say EK is a better fit for Detroit than TK
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
2Holer4Longhaul
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Fri Jan 05, 2018 8:18 pm

klm617 wrote:
TryToFlySomeday wrote:
klm617 wrote:

The problem I have with TK is that there would be no gain of service as they would drive RJ out if the market something EK would likely not do if they started DTW-DXB

TK's a better fit for DTW though. RJ may be loyal but it's not about loyalty. It's about making money from routes that benefit passengers.

TK would connect people to all the same markets as RJ, daily, without the stopover in YUL. (RJ only is 2x weekly.)

TK would also provide connections to places like KHI, ISB, LHE, DAC, DEL, and BOM. The first three of which have nonstops from YYZ, 1-stops from ORD, and a ridiculous 2-stop from DTW. (Considering the Pakistani community in DTW is quite noticeable now, not to the scale of ORD/YYZ, but still there.)



EK can give DTW all that plus a much more stable country to connect at and not hurt the RJ traffic at Detroit. When you add with a subtraction that's not really adding so I'd say EK is a better fit for Detroit than TK

I'd reckon it ain't.
1. Detroit's area has many more Arabs ( especially Levantine Arabs) than South Asians
2. Neither region has significant business ties to Detroit.
3. There are multiple nonstops to India from both ORD and YYZ, and a nonstop from YYZ to Pakistan. In the Middle East, there are no substantial differences in peak season service.
4. RJ has 788s, TK has A330s; EK has no orders for anything smaller than 78Xs
Therefore, RJ or TK are better-positioned to serve DTW than EK, both in terms of plane size and markets.
A junkie for A340s, A380s, and of course Her Majesty the Boeing 747. I wish they were financially viable, but it is not to be.
 
drdisque
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Fri Jan 05, 2018 9:06 pm

There are not multiple nonstops from ORD to India. Just the one AI flight to DEL.
 
klm617
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Fri Jan 05, 2018 9:41 pm

2Holer4Longhaul wrote:
klm617 wrote:
TryToFlySomeday wrote:
TK's a better fit for DTW though. RJ may be loyal but it's not about loyalty. It's about making money from routes that benefit passengers.

TK would connect people to all the same markets as RJ, daily, without the stopover in YUL. (RJ only is 2x weekly.)

TK would also provide connections to places like KHI, ISB, LHE, DAC, DEL, and BOM. The first three of which have nonstops from YYZ, 1-stops from ORD, and a ridiculous 2-stop from DTW. (Considering the Pakistani community in DTW is quite noticeable now, not to the scale of ORD/YYZ, but still there.)



EK can give DTW all that plus a much more stable country to connect at and not hurt the RJ traffic at Detroit. When you add with a subtraction that's not really adding so I'd say EK is a better fit for Detroit than TK

I'd reckon it ain't.
1. Detroit's area has many more Arabs ( especially Levantine Arabs) than South Asians
2. Neither region has significant business ties to Detroit.
3. There are multiple nonstops to India from both ORD and YYZ, and a nonstop from YYZ to Pakistan. In the Middle East, there are no substantial differences in peak season service.
4. RJ has 788s, TK has A330s; EK has no orders for anything smaller than 78Xs
Therefore, RJ or TK are better-positioned to serve DTW than EK, both in terms of plane size and markets.



And RJ and AF have those Arabic destinations well covered. EK would bring something in addition to that and is much more stable than TK at the moment so again another reason to have EK here rather than TK. EK gives you a lot more coverage to India much more than TK can and right now that is the biggest link that is missing in this market with ease of connections that are not high priced. I want to see expansion at DTW but not at the expense of another carrier there is no net gain in that.
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
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kitplane01
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Sat Jan 06, 2018 6:48 am

PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:
kitplane01 wrote:
flymco753 wrote:
Plenty of open gates, there should be a terminal expansion coming soon at the D Concourse, at that point I think it'll give new entrants more room to have a gate or 2 to themselves.

On top of that, I think when the new gates are added, NK might take a few, I would hope they consolidate themselves at the north end of the terminal and push AA down to the mid section. Although I'd like to see a Concourse E extension from the south end and add 5 gates, all for NK.


I'm sorry but minor sure I understood. Does this mean there will be open gate after the terminal expansion, or that there are open gates and will be even more after the terminal expansion?

The North Terminal has 27 gates currently. 21 gates are under preferential use agreements (AA -7, UA - 5, NK - 3, WN -4, F9 -1, B6 -1. The other 6 gates are common use which include the 5 FIS gates + 1 non-FIS gate. LH, RJ, and AS use the common-use gates and NK is frequent user of the common-use gates for anything needing FIS or also when they have more aircraft on the gates beyond their preferential use gates.

There is ample gate space and the only time they even come close to being used is for overnight RON and the morning first flights but a lot of that is driven by parking aircraft on the gates. There are times in the middle of the day, particularly late-morning and early afternoon there may only be 1-2 aircraft at the entire terminal.

There is not a terminal expansion project per-say, but there is a project to add 4 additional gates to the existing building shell/terminal envelope. The old Berry Terminal demolition is underway and once complete they will be adding 3 narrowbody gates to the north end of Concourse D plus about 5-6 hardstand/RON parking positions.
Once the LC Smith terminal demolition occurs they will add 1 additional widebody-FIS gate on the south end of D plus more optimal RON parking/hardstand positions there as well.
They aren't expanding the actual footprint of the building, but able to expand the ramp space add add loading bridges in spaces that were previously blocked by the old terminal buildings.

They project these 31 gates will be able to accomodate the 20 year traffic projections without further expansion. They do have the ability to convert 2 additional gates to FIS capable on the south end of D with some minor renovation work if needed.


Awesome data thank you
 
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mariner
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Sat Jan 06, 2018 8:07 am

compensateme wrote:
LF doesn’t tell the whole story; F9, for example, had similar LF but largely abandoned MCO for MIA.


Sorry, I'm a bit confused. Frontier has about 37 routes to MCO and 14 routes to MIA.

I can't think of any route to MCO that Frontier has abandoned in favour of MIA.

mariner
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TryToFlySomeday
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Sat Jan 06, 2018 11:08 am

klm617 wrote:
2Holer4Longhaul wrote:
klm617 wrote:


EK can give DTW all that plus a much more stable country to connect at and not hurt the RJ traffic at Detroit. When you add with a subtraction that's not really adding so I'd say EK is a better fit for Detroit than TK

I'd reckon it ain't.
1. Detroit's area has many more Arabs ( especially Levantine Arabs) than South Asians
2. Neither region has significant business ties to Detroit.
3. There are multiple nonstops to India from both ORD and YYZ, and a nonstop from YYZ to Pakistan. In the Middle East, there are no substantial differences in peak season service.
4. RJ has 788s, TK has A330s; EK has no orders for anything smaller than 78Xs
Therefore, RJ or TK are better-positioned to serve DTW than EK, both in terms of plane size and markets.



And RJ and AF have those Arabic destinations well covered. EK would bring something in addition to that and is much more stable than TK at the moment so again another reason to have EK here rather than TK. EK gives you a lot more coverage to India much more than TK can and right now that is the biggest link that is missing in this market with ease of connections that are not high priced. I want to see expansion at DTW but not at the expense of another carrier there is no net gain in that.

I disagree that RJ will leave DTW if TK comes. RJ is government funded so therefore they’ll continue fighting it out in DTW if TK comes, similarly to how RJ competes against TK in ORD and JFK
Hi, I'm TryToFlySomeday. A guy who likes to analyze airlines, and loves road trips & airplane trips. Founder of the Roadgeeking Section and Pakistan Aviation Threads.

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klm617
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Sat Jan 06, 2018 12:04 pm

TryToFlySomeday wrote:
klm617 wrote:
2Holer4Longhaul wrote:
I'd reckon it ain't.
1. Detroit's area has many more Arabs ( especially Levantine Arabs) than South Asians
2. Neither region has significant business ties to Detroit.
3. There are multiple nonstops to India from both ORD and YYZ, and a nonstop from YYZ to Pakistan. In the Middle East, there are no substantial differences in peak season service.
4. RJ has 788s, TK has A330s; EK has no orders for anything smaller than 78Xs
Therefore, RJ or TK are better-positioned to serve DTW than EK, both in terms of plane size and markets.



And RJ and AF have those Arabic destinations well covered. EK would bring something in addition to that and is much more stable than TK at the moment so again another reason to have EK here rather than TK. EK gives you a lot more coverage to India much more than TK can and right now that is the biggest link that is missing in this market with ease of connections that are not high priced. I want to see expansion at DTW but not at the expense of another carrier there is no net gain in that.

I disagree that RJ will leave DTW if TK comes. RJ is government funded so therefore they’ll continue fighting it out in DTW if TK comes, similarly to how RJ competes against TK in ORD and JFK



Probably because RJ is part of oneworld and the ORD-Middle East market it much more business orientated than Detroit. DTW is a stand alone market for RJ. The one advantage RJ has is they are better suited to cater to the DTW-Iraq traffic as the take people to AMM from Detroit and then Iraqis take to the road from there to get to Iraq.
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
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flymco753
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Sat Jan 06, 2018 3:06 pm

mariner wrote:
compensateme wrote:
LF doesn’t tell the whole story; F9, for example, had similar LF but largely abandoned MCO for MIA.


Sorry, I'm a bit confused. Frontier has about 37 routes to MCO and 14 routes to MIA.

I can't think of any route to MCO that Frontier has abandoned in favour of MIA.

mariner
Well at the begginning of the winter MCO was going to 3x weekly, now it’s daily again. In the summer it’s currently 5x weekly, I bet it’ll be daily soon. Same thing happened last year.
Resort, and other ground transportation options are on level 1.

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2Holer4Longhaul
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Sat Jan 06, 2018 4:28 pm

klm617 wrote:
2Holer4Longhaul wrote:
klm617 wrote:


EK can give DTW all that plus a much more stable country to connect at and not hurt the RJ traffic at Detroit. When you add with a subtraction that's not really adding so I'd say EK is a better fit for Detroit than TK

I'd reckon it ain't.
1. Detroit's area has many more Arabs ( especially Levantine Arabs) than South Asians
2. Neither region has significant business ties to Detroit.
3. There are multiple nonstops to India from both ORD and YYZ, and a nonstop from YYZ to Pakistan. In the Middle East, there are no substantial differences in peak season service.
4. RJ has 788s, TK has A330s; EK has no orders for anything smaller than 78Xs
Therefore, RJ or TK are better-positioned to serve DTW than EK, both in terms of plane size and markets.



And RJ and AF have those Arabic destinations well covered. EK would bring something in addition to that and is much more stable than TK at the moment so again another reason to have EK here rather than TK. EK gives you a lot more coverage to India much more than TK can and right now that is the biggest link that is missing in this market with ease of connections that are not high priced. I want to see expansion at DTW but not at the expense of another carrier there is no net gain in that.

TK is very stable and (probably) very subsidized. The WCAA would be happy to have them, as would most travelers.
EK, while it flies from a more stable country, isn't subsidized enough to chase a teeny-tiny, non-prestigious, low-yielding market.
A junkie for A340s, A380s, and of course Her Majesty the Boeing 747. I wish they were financially viable, but it is not to be.
 
TryToFlySomeday
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Sat Jan 06, 2018 7:09 pm

klm617 wrote:
TryToFlySomeday wrote:
klm617 wrote:


And RJ and AF have those Arabic destinations well covered. EK would bring something in addition to that and is much more stable than TK at the moment so again another reason to have EK here rather than TK. EK gives you a lot more coverage to India much more than TK can and right now that is the biggest link that is missing in this market with ease of connections that are not high priced. I want to see expansion at DTW but not at the expense of another carrier there is no net gain in that.

I disagree that RJ will leave DTW if TK comes. RJ is government funded so therefore they’ll continue fighting it out in DTW if TK comes, similarly to how RJ competes against TK in ORD and JFK



Probably because RJ is part of oneworld and the ORD-Middle East market it much more business orientated than Detroit. DTW is a stand alone market for RJ. The one advantage RJ has is they are better suited to cater to the DTW-Iraq traffic as the take people to AMM from Detroit and then Iraqis take to the road from there to get to Iraq.

Check. It’s a two stop from DTW to Iraq because RJ stops in YUL on the way to AMM during off season. Plus RJ only flies to DTW 2x weekly. TK would likely fly daily and nonstop to IST
Hi, I'm TryToFlySomeday. A guy who likes to analyze airlines, and loves road trips & airplane trips. Founder of the Roadgeeking Section and Pakistan Aviation Threads.

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BenflysDTW
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Sat Jan 06, 2018 10:53 pm

I think TK is very likely to come to DTW, Especially with the opening of IGA this year. I think they will start with 4-5 weekly, not daily. ATL started daily with the 773 I believe but now sees 5 weekly flights with the A332. I don’t know what will happen to RJ However. They are already very weak in the winter, 65%+ of passengers fly from YUL to AMM and don’t fly T/F DTW.
 
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mariner
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Sun Jan 07, 2018 12:37 am

flymco753 wrote:
Well at the begginning of the winter MCO was going to 3x weekly, now it’s daily again. In the summer it’s currently 5x weekly, I bet it’ll be daily soon. Same thing happened last year.


I don't know what that has to do with the post I replied to but - yes, the frequencies can change. Frontier is an intensely seasonal airline.

mariner
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klm617
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Sun Jan 07, 2018 11:19 pm

BenflysDTW wrote:
I think TK is very likely to come to DTW, Especially with the opening of IGA this year. I think they will start with 4-5 weekly, not daily. ATL started daily with the 773 I believe but now sees 5 weekly flights with the A332. I don’t know what will happen to RJ However. They are already very weak in the winter, 65%+ of passengers fly from YUL to AMM and don’t fly T/F DTW.



Actually I see TK leaving ATL in the not to distant future.
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
TryToFlySomeday
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Mon Jan 08, 2018 1:22 am

klm617 wrote:
BenflysDTW wrote:
I think TK is very likely to come to DTW, Especially with the opening of IGA this year. I think they will start with 4-5 weekly, not daily. ATL started daily with the 773 I believe but now sees 5 weekly flights with the A332. I don’t know what will happen to RJ However. They are already very weak in the winter, 65%+ of passengers fly from YUL to AMM and don’t fly T/F DTW.



Actually I see TK leaving ATL in the not to distant future.

How come?
Hi, I'm TryToFlySomeday. A guy who likes to analyze airlines, and loves road trips & airplane trips. Founder of the Roadgeeking Section and Pakistan Aviation Threads.

American-born Pakistani based in ORD. Favorite cities: ORD / GRR / DTW
 
klm617
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Mon Jan 08, 2018 1:49 am

TryToFlySomeday wrote:
klm617 wrote:
BenflysDTW wrote:
I think TK is very likely to come to DTW, Especially with the opening of IGA this year. I think they will start with 4-5 weekly, not daily. ATL started daily with the 773 I believe but now sees 5 weekly flights with the A332. I don’t know what will happen to RJ However. They are already very weak in the winter, 65%+ of passengers fly from YUL to AMM and don’t fly T/F DTW.



Actually I see TK leaving ATL in the not to distant future.

How come?



Because they are going to be squeezed out by QR and DL there really isn't a market for them in ATL
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
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william
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Mon Jan 08, 2018 2:46 pm

klm617 wrote:
william wrote:
Remember when SWA started service at a secondary Detroit airport? I forgot the name, Does it still have commercial service? Can imagine an airline like Allegiant setting up shop there.


It was called Detroit City Airport and later renamed the Colman A Young international airport and yes I agree DET would be a great place for Allegiant to set up service. At this point there is no service there.


This is what it looks like outside of the teminal at DET?

https://www.google.com/maps/@42.4088436 ... 312!8i6656
 
TryToFlySomeday
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Mon Jan 08, 2018 5:16 pm

klm617 wrote:
TryToFlySomeday wrote:
klm617 wrote:


Actually I see TK leaving ATL in the not to distant future.

How come?



Because they are going to be squeezed out by QR and DL there really isn't a market for them in ATL

QR is a better fit for ATL due to ATL’s large Indian population, so I agree with that.

Despite that, TK is also government funded - no way they’re going to leave ATL without a fight. I also think IST-DTW will come eventually when the new Istanbul airport opens.
Hi, I'm TryToFlySomeday. A guy who likes to analyze airlines, and loves road trips & airplane trips. Founder of the Roadgeeking Section and Pakistan Aviation Threads.

American-born Pakistani based in ORD. Favorite cities: ORD / GRR / DTW
 
klm617
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Mon Jan 08, 2018 8:18 pm

william wrote:
klm617 wrote:
william wrote:
Remember when SWA started service at a secondary Detroit airport? I forgot the name, Does it still have commercial service? Can imagine an airline like Allegiant setting up shop there.


It was called Detroit City Airport and later renamed the Colman A Young international airport and yes I agree DET would be a great place for Allegiant to set up service. At this point there is no service there.


This is what it looks like outside of the teminal at DET?

https://www.google.com/maps/@42.4088436 ... 312!8i6656



Time to start rallying around the idea of Allegiant starting flights to Detroit City Airport. Perfect fir for that airport A319 doesn't need that much runway and DET is right smack in the middle of the region that needs budget air travel the most.. From that picture looks like it's being kepy up pretty nice
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
drdisque
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Mon Jan 08, 2018 8:47 pm

DET hasn't had scheduled flights in 17 years, although apparently, the terminal can still be configured to do airline flights and have security and a sterile area.

The jetways are essentially derelict having sat unused for 17 years, but one or both could be removed to free up space as I doubt Allegiant would require one.

I still think G4 would be hesitant about the 5090 ft. runway length, even with the A319 just flying to Florida. Spirit also has extensive Detroit-Florida offerings and G4 already flies to FNT, meaning there really isn't a huge opportunity.
 
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william
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Mon Jan 08, 2018 9:29 pm

drdisque wrote:
DET hasn't had scheduled flights in 17 years, although apparently, the terminal can still be configured to do airline flights and have security and a sterile area.

The jetways are essentially derelict having sat unused for 17 years, but one or both could be removed to free up space as I doubt Allegiant would require one.

I still think G4 would be hesitant about the 5090 ft. runway length, even with the A319 just flying to Florida. Spirit also has extensive Detroit-Florida offerings and G4 already flies to FNT, meaning there really isn't a huge opportunity.


How did SWA do it when they flew there? Was it DET-CHI?
 
drdisque
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Mon Jan 08, 2018 9:36 pm

william wrote:
drdisque wrote:
DET hasn't had scheduled flights in 17 years, although apparently, the terminal can still be configured to do airline flights and have security and a sterile area.

The jetways are essentially derelict having sat unused for 17 years, but one or both could be removed to free up space as I doubt Allegiant would require one.

I still think G4 would be hesitant about the 5090 ft. runway length, even with the A319 just flying to Florida. Spirit also has extensive Detroit-Florida offerings and G4 already flies to FNT, meaning there really isn't a huge opportunity.


How did SWA do it when they flew there? Was it DET-CHI?


Yes, it was DET-MDW and I believe they mostly used the 737-200 and 737-500. They pulled out because the short field limited them to only flying to MDW.

Pro Air attempted some further destinations with the 737-300 and 737-400, such as ATL, LGA, and BWI but they were sometimes weight restricted. They flew to DET-SEA with a stop in MDW and DET-MCO with a stop in ATL. This leads me to believe that DET-SFB or DET-PIE with a commercially viable payload is not reasonable on the A319.
 
PSU.DTW.SCE
Posts: 6618
Joined: Mon Jan 28, 2002 11:45 am

Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Mon Jan 08, 2018 10:03 pm

Reposting my post about DET from the 2017 thread:

There is no justification for the city/state/federal government to spend public money to make DET viable for commerical airline operations at this point. It is such an uphill battle it has all the hallmarks of becoming a giant porkbarrel project in light of the fact there is more than ample airfield, airside, and landside capacity at DTW with modern infrastructure and that the region has far more pressing public infrastructure needs that opening another airport for niche or token leisure quasi-charter like operations.

Here is a short list of all of the issues with DET:

Runway width - 100 ft, where most runways used by airlines are 150 ft, which causes significant crosswind limitations
Runway length - 5,090 ft, and has cemeteries located on adjacent properties at both ends. In the current political environment there is no justifiable reason to move grave-sites for a airport/runway that is not needed
Terminal - has been essentially mothballed for over 17 years, and also every furnishing or fixture would need replacing, not to mention likely infestation or mold damage. Who knows the state of the mechanical, electrical, and plumbing systems
Jetbridges - highly unlikely they have been maintained to any sort of operable condition, likely need to be replaced
Security Screening / TSA - would need to invest millions to install modern security screening, systems, certify/inspect the terminal space and set-up back-office support. Not to mention actually staffing the TSA screening
Concessions - need to build-out basic airport concessions
Parking - very limited parking in and around the terminal, would need to set-up parking lots, repave lots, etc.
Rental Cars - would need to get rental car vendors established
ARFF - not sure that DET still have ARFF capabilities for airline service, might need upgraded equipment here
Access - need to install all sorts of directional signage from I-94, probably need to repave/rebuilt Conner Ave from I-94

All for a handful of token flights?

For as convenient as DET may be to Macomb County, its just as inconvenient to the other parts of Metro Detroit. If DTW were constrained in any aspect then there might be case for DET but with all of the capacity and infrastructure in place DTW its not a good use of public or private funds to make DET viable again for large-scale commercial flights.
 
Alphazone
Posts: 71
Joined: Wed Nov 24, 2010 5:22 pm

Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Mon Jan 08, 2018 10:15 pm

flymco753 wrote:
I remember flying from Orlando to Detroit to see my grandparents and taking a DC-10 early in the morning to Detroit and late in the evening to MCO, we even were on a swap on a 747-200... boy have times changed.


I also have a fond memory of my first visit to Orlando at age four-- my first and only 727 flight.

The return flight to Detroit was my first A320 flight.

Then in January 2016, I randomly ran into my friend at MCO airport. He had just finished running a marathon.

We flew back to Detroit together on a non-ER 767.
No conclusion can be offered, for the history recounted above is still unfolding.
 
klm617
Posts: 2553
Joined: Sat Jul 04, 2015 8:57 pm

Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Tue Jan 09, 2018 1:29 am

PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:
Reposting my post about DET from the 2017 thread:

There is no justification for the city/state/federal government to spend public money to make DET viable for commerical airline operations at this point. It is such an uphill battle it has all the hallmarks of becoming a giant porkbarrel project in light of the fact there is more than ample airfield, airside, and landside capacity at DTW with modern infrastructure and that the region has far more pressing public infrastructure needs that opening another airport for niche or token leisure quasi-charter like operations.

Here is a short list of all of the issues with DET:

Runway width - 100 ft, where most runways used by airlines are 150 ft, which causes significant crosswind limitations
Runway length - 5,090 ft, and has cemeteries located on adjacent properties at both ends. In the current political environment there is no justifiable reason to move grave-sites for a airport/runway that is not needed
Terminal - has been essentially mothballed for over 17 years, and also every furnishing or fixture would need replacing, not to mention likely infestation or mold damage. Who knows the state of the mechanical, electrical, and plumbing systems
Jetbridges - highly unlikely they have been maintained to any sort of operable condition, likely need to be replaced
Security Screening / TSA - would need to invest millions to install modern security screening, systems, certify/inspect the terminal space and set-up back-office support. Not to mention actually staffing the TSA screening
Concessions - need to build-out basic airport concessions
Parking - very limited parking in and around the terminal, would need to set-up parking lots, repave lots, etc.
Rental Cars - would need to get rental car vendors established
ARFF - not sure that DET still have ARFF capabilities for airline service, might need upgraded equipment here
Access - need to install all sorts of directional signage from I-94, probably need to repave/rebuilt Conner Ave from I-94

All for a handful of token flights?

For as convenient as DET may be to Macomb County, its just as inconvenient to the other parts of Metro Detroit. If DTW were constrained in any aspect then there might be case for DET but with all of the capacity and infrastructure in place DTW its not a good use of public or private funds to make DET viable again for large-scale commercial flights.


Thank you for that information but your post doesn't help to expand our options in this market it only helps to keep the growth in the Detroit market stagnant. Instead of making post like this why not promote more options rather than making posts that shoot down ideas which could be of great help with in this region. Your thoughts at times are very anti Detroit growth which is perplexing to me. While I respect your knowledge and wisdom a great deal why not use it in positive ways rather than in the negative way that you do sometimes. Don't get me wrong I think you are very knowledgeable and know your stuff but may I suggest you use what you know in more positive way to help DTW grow to what it can be. There are enough people who poopoo Detroit but a native Detroiter on the inside shout be acting in a more positive way about commercial aviation in this region. You can play the reality card all you want but before FI started MSP there was nothing and now it's 4 times daily in the summer and before UA tried SFO-TLV there was nothing and now AI is jumping in the fray so nothing is out of the question and we must look at it in the same way when marketing Detroit. We as Detroiters can not keep saying negative things about this market just because it's popular opinion there are enough people out there that will do it for us.
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
klm617
Posts: 2553
Joined: Sat Jul 04, 2015 8:57 pm

Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Tue Jan 09, 2018 1:32 am

PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:
Reposting my post about DET from the 2017 thread:

There is no justification for the city/state/federal government to spend public money to make DET viable for commerical airline operations at this point. It is such an uphill battle it has all the hallmarks of becoming a giant porkbarrel project in light of the fact there is more than ample airfield, airside, and landside capacity at DTW with modern infrastructure and that the region has far more pressing public infrastructure needs that opening another airport for niche or token leisure quasi-charter like operations.

Here is a short list of all of the issues with DET:

Runway width - 100 ft, where most runways used by airlines are 150 ft, which causes significant crosswind limitations
Runway length - 5,090 ft, and has cemeteries located on adjacent properties at both ends. In the current political environment there is no justifiable reason to move grave-sites for a airport/runway that is not needed
Terminal - has been essentially mothballed for over 17 years, and also every furnishing or fixture would need replacing, not to mention likely infestation or mold damage. Who knows the state of the mechanical, electrical, and plumbing systems
Jetbridges - highly unlikely they have been maintained to any sort of operable condition, likely need to be replaced
Security Screening / TSA - would need to invest millions to install modern security screening, systems, certify/inspect the terminal space and set-up back-office support. Not to mention actually staffing the TSA screening
Concessions - need to build-out basic airport concessions
Parking - very limited parking in and around the terminal, would need to set-up parking lots, repave lots, etc.
Rental Cars - would need to get rental car vendors established
ARFF - not sure that DET still have ARFF capabilities for airline service, might need upgraded equipment here
Access - need to install all sorts of directional signage from I-94, probably need to repave/rebuilt Conner Ave from I-94

All for a handful of token flights?

For as convenient as DET may be to Macomb County, its just as inconvenient to the other parts of Metro Detroit. If DTW were constrained in any aspect then there might be case for DET but with all of the capacity and infrastructure in place DTW its not a good use of public or private funds to make DET viable again for large-scale commercial flights.



DTW is constrained by Delta Airlines.
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
NWADTWE16
Posts: 430
Joined: Fri Jun 29, 2012 5:12 am

Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Tue Jan 09, 2018 1:38 am

Everything I've heard about the DET airport site is that they are moving toward it being a legal venue for drag racing, and the city was behind this, atleast 1 event has already occurred.
I haven't been everywhere, but it's on my list!
 
BigTexFlyer
Posts: 50
Joined: Sat Apr 08, 2017 9:48 pm

Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Tue Jan 09, 2018 1:58 am

klm617 wrote:
PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:
Reposting my post about DET from the 2017 thread:

There is no justification for the city/state/federal government to spend public money to make DET viable for commerical airline operations at this point. It is such an uphill battle it has all the hallmarks of becoming a giant porkbarrel project in light of the fact there is more than ample airfield, airside, and landside capacity at DTW with modern infrastructure and that the region has far more pressing public infrastructure needs that opening another airport for niche or token leisure quasi-charter like operations.

Here is a short list of all of the issues with DET:

Runway width - 100 ft, where most runways used by airlines are 150 ft, which causes significant crosswind limitations
Runway length - 5,090 ft, and has cemeteries located on adjacent properties at both ends. In the current political environment there is no justifiable reason to move grave-sites for a airport/runway that is not needed
Terminal - has been essentially mothballed for over 17 years, and also every furnishing or fixture would need replacing, not to mention likely infestation or mold damage. Who knows the state of the mechanical, electrical, and plumbing systems
Jetbridges - highly unlikely they have been maintained to any sort of operable condition, likely need to be replaced
Security Screening / TSA - would need to invest millions to install modern security screening, systems, certify/inspect the terminal space and set-up back-office support. Not to mention actually staffing the TSA screening
Concessions - need to build-out basic airport concessions
Parking - very limited parking in and around the terminal, would need to set-up parking lots, repave lots, etc.
Rental Cars - would need to get rental car vendors established
ARFF - not sure that DET still have ARFF capabilities for airline service, might need upgraded equipment here
Access - need to install all sorts of directional signage from I-94, probably need to repave/rebuilt Conner Ave from I-94

All for a handful of token flights?

For as convenient as DET may be to Macomb County, its just as inconvenient to the other parts of Metro Detroit. If DTW were constrained in any aspect then there might be case for DET but with all of the capacity and infrastructure in place DTW its not a good use of public or private funds to make DET viable again for large-scale commercial flights.


DTW is constrained by Delta Airlines.


You, my friend, live in:

https://ih1.redbubble.net/image.2156329 ... te-1u4.jpg
 
drdisque
Posts: 586
Joined: Mon Mar 26, 2007 9:57 am

Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Tue Jan 09, 2018 2:42 am

NWADTWE16 wrote:
Everything I've heard about the DET airport site is that they are moving toward it being a legal venue for drag racing, and the city was behind this, atleast 1 event has already occurred.


The east/west runway is essentially unneeded. I can see it being closed and used for racing and the North/South runway retained for GA traffic. Closing the East/West runway would also allow for some safety improvements to be made to the South end of the North/South runway. I don't see the whole airport being closed.

Klm617, it's not the duty of people on this forum to be cheerleaders for Detroit Air Service development. Perhaps when you think someone is being negative, you should think of it as helping guide where you should focus your thoughts and energy.

Here are some of my wilder ideas that I think might actually work:
AA to LAX
WN or F9 to AUS, RDU, or SAT

Norwegian to London would work, but there's the issue of aircraft availability and slots, so I don't know if it will happen. In general I think there's room for another European carrier to break up the duopoly on the market. Maybe SAS since they have reduced high yielding O&D opportunities due to Norwegian diluting a lot of their core markets. Of course the bigger gap is a Oneworld/IAG flight to Europe, but I don't see what would make sense - LEVEL to MAD? EI to DUB?

DL could probably resume SJC at least seasonally, TUS could also work on DL winter seasonal
F9 to MIA
If the CAD comes back I can see DL resuming YXU or maybe going to YKF instead. YYC on DL would also be a possibility.
 
User avatar
william
Posts: 2716
Joined: Thu Jun 10, 1999 1:31 pm

Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Tue Jan 09, 2018 2:58 am

PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:
Reposting my post about DET from the 2017 thread:

There is no justification for the city/state/federal government to spend public money to make DET viable for commerical airline operations at this point. It is such an uphill battle it has all the hallmarks of becoming a giant porkbarrel project in light of the fact there is more than ample airfield, airside, and landside capacity at DTW with modern infrastructure and that the region has far more pressing public infrastructure needs that opening another airport for niche or token leisure quasi-charter like operations.

Here is a short list of all of the issues with DET:

Runway width - 100 ft, where most runways used by airlines are 150 ft, which causes significant crosswind limitations
Runway length - 5,090 ft, and has cemeteries located on adjacent properties at both ends. In the current political environment there is no justifiable reason to move grave-sites for a airport/runway that is not needed
Terminal - has been essentially mothballed for over 17 years, and also every furnishing or fixture would need replacing, not to mention likely infestation or mold damage. Who knows the state of the mechanical, electrical, and plumbing systems
Jetbridges - highly unlikely they have been maintained to any sort of operable condition, likely need to be replaced
Security Screening / TSA - would need to invest millions to install modern security screening, systems, certify/inspect the terminal space and set-up back-office support. Not to mention actually staffing the TSA screening
Concessions - need to build-out basic airport concessions
Parking - very limited parking in and around the terminal, would need to set-up parking lots, repave lots, etc.
Rental Cars - would need to get rental car vendors established
ARFF - not sure that DET still have ARFF capabilities for airline service, might need upgraded equipment here
Access - need to install all sorts of directional signage from I-94, probably need to repave/rebuilt Conner Ave from I-94

All for a handful of token flights?

For as convenient as DET may be to Macomb County, its just as inconvenient to the other parts of Metro Detroit. If DTW were constrained in any aspect then there might be case for DET but with all of the capacity and infrastructure in place DTW its not a good use of public or private funds to make DET viable again for large-scale commercial flights.


I see why SWA left and why its still empty of commercial service.
 
User avatar
flymco753
Posts: 2354
Joined: Fri Jun 10, 2016 2:09 am

Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Tue Jan 09, 2018 3:57 am

drdisque wrote:
NWADTWE16 wrote:
Everything I've heard about the DET airport site is that they are moving toward it being a legal venue for drag racing, and the city was behind this, atleast 1 event has already occurred.


The east/west runway is essentially unneeded. I can see it being closed and used for racing and the North/South runway retained for GA traffic. Closing the East/West runway would also allow for some safety improvements to be made to the South end of the North/South runway. I don't see the whole airport being closed.

Klm617, it's not the duty of people on this forum to be cheerleaders for Detroit Air Service development. Perhaps when you think someone is being negative, you should think of it as helping guide where you should focus your thoughts and energy.

Here are some of my wilder ideas that I think might actually work:
AA to LAX
WN or F9 to AUS, RDU, or SAT

Norwegian to London would work, but there's the issue of aircraft availability and slots, so I don't know if it will happen. In general I think there's room for another European carrier to break up the duopoly on the market. Maybe SAS since they have reduced high yielding O&D opportunities due to Norwegian diluting a lot of their core markets. Of course the bigger gap is a Oneworld/IAG flight to Europe, but I don't see what would make sense - LEVEL to MAD? EI to DUB?

DL could probably resume SJC at least seasonally, TUS could also work on DL winter seasonal
F9 to MIA
If the CAD comes back I can see DL resuming YXU or maybe going to YKF instead. YYC on DL would also be a possibility.
A few notes here to consider;
-BCN is a much larger market than MAD, and slightly larger than DUB, the issue might be that BCN can’t fill the front on DL, so essentially an airline like LEVEL or Iberia would have to start something, and even than it’s a stretch. I think as the regions continue to grow as they have been, eventually DL could do BCN, but only on a 76W since the 75W would most likely be restricted. DUB though, has more front paying pax instead of the back so it’s a race to see if DL or EI is going to go at it first, both are likely on a 75W.
-WS would do YYC over DL to protect DL’s MSP-YYC Service, it’s essentially why you’ll never see DL add ATL-YYC, YEG, YWG, etc. Plus DL would take full advantage of YQGs service by sending it to DTW.
-With tech meeting auto, the tech sector in SE Michigan is exploding in relation to automotives, these are front paying pax and it’s most likely to be year round. TUS is fairly large year round, that would be DTW’s 2nd largest unserved market if SJC is added soon by DL, behind SMF.
-F9 should’ve already done TPA and AUS, so they’re the most likely adds for F9 next. WN isn’t doing great on DAL and the next hypothetical add for WN is Saturday winter RSW and FLL and HOU full time.
-AA just cut MSP-LAX, while it’s a bloodbath, I think DL was the main perpetrator. AS imho should do it over AA.
Resort, and other ground transportation options are on level 1.

*Future Route Network Planner*
 
drdisque
Posts: 586
Joined: Mon Mar 26, 2007 9:57 am

Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Tue Jan 09, 2018 5:00 am

[photoid][/photoid]Yeah, with the LCC feed from Vueling, particularly to Italy which is fairly strong from DTW and the larger O&D market to BCN, Level to BCN actually makes a lot of sense. I know that to start Level is targeting large O&D US cities from the European Point of Sale, but it does open opportunities for medium-large sized US markets lacking much TATL competition (DTW, MSP, ATL, DFW, CLT, RDU, PHL, IAH) (of course I would expect Level to avoid AA hubs as long as the JV is still in place, so scratch CLT, PHL, and DFW)
 
2Holer4Longhaul
Posts: 311
Joined: Tue Jul 11, 2017 5:03 am

Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Tue Jan 09, 2018 5:42 am

flymco753 wrote:
drdisque wrote:
NWADTWE16 wrote:
Everything I've heard about the DET airport site is that they are moving toward it being a legal venue for drag racing, and the city was behind this, atleast 1 event has already occurred.


The east/west runway is essentially unneeded. I can see it being closed and used for racing and the North/South runway retained for GA traffic. Closing the East/West runway would also allow for some safety improvements to be made to the South end of the North/South runway. I don't see the whole airport being closed.

Klm617, it's not the duty of people on this forum to be cheerleaders for Detroit Air Service development. Perhaps when you think someone is being negative, you should think of it as helping guide where you should focus your thoughts and energy.

Here are some of my wilder ideas that I think might actually work:
AA to LAX
WN or F9 to AUS, RDU, or SAT

Norwegian to London would work, but there's the issue of aircraft availability and slots, so I don't know if it will happen. In general I think there's room for another European carrier to break up the duopoly on the market. Maybe SAS since they have reduced high yielding O&D opportunities due to Norwegian diluting a lot of their core markets. Of course the bigger gap is a Oneworld/IAG flight to Europe, but I don't see what would make sense - LEVEL to MAD? EI to DUB?

DL could probably resume SJC at least seasonally, TUS could also work on DL winter seasonal
F9 to MIA
If the CAD comes back I can see DL resuming YXU or maybe going to YKF instead. YYC on DL would also be a possibility.
A few notes here to consider;
-BCN is a much larger market than MAD, and slightly larger than DUB, the issue might be that BCN can’t fill the front on DL, so essentially an airline like LEVEL or Iberia would have to start something, and even than it’s a stretch. I think as the regions continue to grow as they have been, eventually DL could do BCN, but only on a 76W since the 75W would most likely be restricted. DUB though, has more front paying pax instead of the back so it’s a race to see if DL or EI is going to go at it first, both are likely on a 75W.
-WS would do YYC over DL to protect DL’s MSP-YYC Service, it’s essentially why you’ll never see DL add ATL-YYC, YEG, YWG, etc. Plus DL would take full advantage of YQGs service by sending it to DTW.
-With tech meeting auto, the tech sector in SE Michigan is exploding in relation to automotives, these are front paying pax and it’s most likely to be year round. TUS is fairly large year round, that would be DTW’s 2nd largest unserved market if SJC is added soon by DL, behind SMF.
-F9 should’ve already done TPA and AUS, so they’re the most likely adds for F9 next. WN isn’t doing great on DAL and the next hypothetical add for WN is Saturday winter RSW and FLL and HOU full time.
-AA just cut MSP-LAX, while it’s a bloodbath, I think DL was the main perpetrator. AS imho should do it over AA.

I'd seriously love to see numbers or statistics about DUB, BCN, or MAD... oh, wait, we already established that Delta and the WCAA are conspiring to wipe them from existence.
klm617 wrote:
PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:
Reposting my post about DET from the 2017 thread:

There is no justification for the city/state/federal government to spend public money to make DET viable for commerical airline operations at this point. It is such an uphill battle it has all the hallmarks of becoming a giant porkbarrel project in light of the fact there is more than ample airfield, airside, and landside capacity at DTW with modern infrastructure and that the region has far more pressing public infrastructure needs that opening another airport for niche or token leisure quasi-charter like operations.

Here is a short list of all of the issues with DET:

Runway width - 100 ft, where most runways used by airlines are 150 ft, which causes significant crosswind limitations
Runway length - 5,090 ft, and has cemeteries located on adjacent properties at both ends. In the current political environment there is no justifiable reason to move grave-sites for a airport/runway that is not needed
Terminal - has been essentially mothballed for over 17 years, and also every furnishing or fixture would need replacing, not to mention likely infestation or mold damage. Who knows the state of the mechanical, electrical, and plumbing systems
Jetbridges - highly unlikely they have been maintained to any sort of operable condition, likely need to be replaced
Security Screening / TSA - would need to invest millions to install modern security screening, systems, certify/inspect the terminal space and set-up back-office support. Not to mention actually staffing the TSA screening
Concessions - need to build-out basic airport concessions
Parking - very limited parking in and around the terminal, would need to set-up parking lots, repave lots, etc.
Rental Cars - would need to get rental car vendors established
ARFF - not sure that DET still have ARFF capabilities for airline service, might need upgraded equipment here
Access - need to install all sorts of directional signage from I-94, probably need to repave/rebuilt Conner Ave from I-94

All for a handful of token flights?

For as convenient as DET may be to Macomb County, its just as inconvenient to the other parts of Metro Detroit. If DTW were constrained in any aspect then there might be case for DET but with all of the capacity and infrastructure in place DTW its not a good use of public or private funds to make DET viable again for large-scale commercial flights.


Thank you for that information but your post doesn't help to expand our options in this market it only helps to keep the growth in the Detroit market stagnant. Instead of making post like this why not promote more options rather than making posts that shoot down ideas which could be of great help with in this region. Your thoughts at times are very anti Detroit growth which is perplexing to me. While I respect your knowledge and wisdom a great deal why not use it in positive ways rather than in the negative way that you do sometimes. Don't get me wrong I think you are very knowledgeable and know your stuff but may I suggest you use what you know in more positive way to help DTW grow to what it can be. There are enough people who poopoo Detroit but a native Detroiter on the inside shout be acting in a more positive way about commercial aviation in this region. You can play the reality card all you want but before FI started MSP there was nothing and now it's 4 times daily in the summer and before UA tried SFO-TLV there was nothing and now AI is jumping in the fray so nothing is out of the question and we must look at it in the same way when marketing Detroit. We as Detroiters can not keep saying negative things about this market just because it's popular opinion there are enough people out there that will do it for us.

1. Airlines don't take anything anyone on a.net says seriously. If they did, Delta would have long since sued you for defamation
2. Opening a 2nd, crummy airport wouldn't draw service to Detroit. It makes more sense to expand the North Terminal if there are any capacity issues (which I'm not sure if there are). If Allegiant wants to serve a smaller airport, FNT isn't that far away.
klm617 wrote:
DTW is constrained by Delta Airlines.

And I'm Beyonce.
A junkie for A340s, A380s, and of course Her Majesty the Boeing 747. I wish they were financially viable, but it is not to be.
 
klm617
Posts: 2553
Joined: Sat Jul 04, 2015 8:57 pm

Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Tue Jan 09, 2018 1:49 pm

drdisque wrote:
NWADTWE16 wrote:
Everything I've heard about the DET airport site is that they are moving toward it being a legal venue for drag racing, and the city was behind this, atleast 1 event has already occurred.


The east/west runway is essentially unneeded. I can see it being closed and used for racing and the North/South runway retained for GA traffic. Closing the East/West runway would also allow for some safety improvements to be made to the South end of the North/South runway. I don't see the whole airport being closed.

Klm617, it's not the duty of people on this forum to be cheerleaders for Detroit Air Service development. Perhaps when you think someone is being negative, you should think of it as helping guide where you should focus your thoughts and energy.

Here are some of my wilder ideas that I think might actually work:
AA to LAX
WN or F9 to AUS, RDU, or SAT

Norwegian to London would work, but there's the issue of aircraft availability and slots, so I don't know if it will happen. In general I think there's room for another European carrier to break up the duopoly on the market. Maybe SAS since they have reduced high yielding O&D opportunities due to Norwegian diluting a lot of their core markets. Of course the bigger gap is a Oneworld/IAG flight to Europe, but I don't see what would make sense - LEVEL to MAD? EI to DUB?

DL could probably resume SJC at least seasonally, TUS could also work on DL winter seasonal
F9 to MIA
If the CAD comes back I can see DL resuming YXU or maybe going to YKF instead. YYC on DL would also be a possibility.


I think it's quite the other way around. My positive comments should be an indicator where others should focus their thoughts and energy. Some times thinking outside of the box is what you need to do to move forward rather than sitting still in the same spot.
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
jordanh
Posts: 161
Joined: Fri Sep 08, 2017 11:56 pm

Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Tue Jan 09, 2018 5:20 pm

klm617 wrote:
I think it's quite the other way around. My positive comments should be an indicator where others should focus their thoughts and energy. Some times thinking outside of the box is what you need to do to move forward rather than sitting still in the same spot.


Do you honestly think your comments should be the focus of everyone else's "thoughts and energy"? Can you eve comprehend your own reputation here?

That is the height of arrogance - and delusion.
 
beerbus
Posts: 32
Joined: Tue Oct 18, 2016 2:41 pm

Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Tue Jan 09, 2018 5:37 pm

Here is a link to a Southwest Airlines blog on their experiences at Detroit City Airport:

https://www.southwestaircommunity.com/t ... ba-p/29284

Cheers!
 
klm617
Posts: 2553
Joined: Sat Jul 04, 2015 8:57 pm

Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Tue Jan 09, 2018 9:03 pm

jordanh wrote:
klm617 wrote:
I think it's quite the other way around. My positive comments should be an indicator where others should focus their thoughts and energy. Some times thinking outside of the box is what you need to do to move forward rather than sitting still in the same spot.


Do you honestly think your comments should be the focus of everyone else's "thoughts and energy"? Can you eve comprehend your own reputation here?

That is the height of arrogance - and delusion.


I was never in my life bothered what others thought I am leader not a follower sorry to disappoint you but what others think doesn't fuel my passions my own inner motivation does.
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
2Holer4Longhaul
Posts: 311
Joined: Tue Jul 11, 2017 5:03 am

Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Tue Jan 09, 2018 11:23 pm

klm617 wrote:
drdisque wrote:
NWADTWE16 wrote:
Everything I've heard about the DET airport site is that they are moving toward it being a legal venue for drag racing, and the city was behind this, atleast 1 event has already occurred.


The east/west runway is essentially unneeded. I can see it being closed and used for racing and the North/South runway retained for GA traffic. Closing the East/West runway would also allow for some safety improvements to be made to the South end of the North/South runway. I don't see the whole airport being closed.

Klm617, it's not the duty of people on this forum to be cheerleaders for Detroit Air Service development. Perhaps when you think someone is being negative, you should think of it as helping guide where you should focus your thoughts and energy.

Here are some of my wilder ideas that I think might actually work:
AA to LAX
WN or F9 to AUS, RDU, or SAT

Norwegian to London would work, but there's the issue of aircraft availability and slots, so I don't know if it will happen. In general I think there's room for another European carrier to break up the duopoly on the market. Maybe SAS since they have reduced high yielding O&D opportunities due to Norwegian diluting a lot of their core markets. Of course the bigger gap is a Oneworld/IAG flight to Europe, but I don't see what would make sense - LEVEL to MAD? EI to DUB?

DL could probably resume SJC at least seasonally, TUS could also work on DL winter seasonal
F9 to MIA
If the CAD comes back I can see DL resuming YXU or maybe going to YKF instead. YYC on DL would also be a possibility.


I think it's quite the other way around. My positive comments should be an indicator where others should focus their thoughts and energy. Some times thinking outside of the box is what you need to do to move forward rather than sitting still in the same spot.

I can tell you're thinking outside the box. You're thinking outside so many boxes that no budget can contain you.
We who like to engage in reasonable speculation tend to keep money in mind, since that, not fanboyism, is the driving force behind airlines.
A junkie for A340s, A380s, and of course Her Majesty the Boeing 747. I wish they were financially viable, but it is not to be.
 
dtw2hyd
Posts: 5658
Joined: Wed Jan 09, 2013 12:11 pm

Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Tue Jan 09, 2018 11:36 pm

klm617 wrote:
...DTW is constrained by Delta Airlines.


Do you mean McNamara is constrained by DL?

DL cannot block any airline at the North Terminal.
 
klm617
Posts: 2553
Joined: Sat Jul 04, 2015 8:57 pm

Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Wed Jan 10, 2018 12:02 am

dtw2hyd wrote:
klm617 wrote:
...DTW is constrained by Delta Airlines.


Do you mean McNamara is constrained by DL?

DL cannot block any airline at the North Terminal.

No but they can make the road difficult. I understand they can't block any additions but they can make their disapprove of direct competition or negative impact on their yields will not be tolerated thus curbing how aggressive the WCAA might be about bringing new entrants into this market. You do remember how ATL ran interference for the when QR brought the A380 into ATL and Delta didn't like the fact that QR was opening up shop in ATL. Delta is a very powerful airline.
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
2Holer4Longhaul
Posts: 311
Joined: Tue Jul 11, 2017 5:03 am

Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Wed Jan 10, 2018 1:52 am

klm617 wrote:
dtw2hyd wrote:
klm617 wrote:
...DTW is constrained by Delta Airlines.


Do you mean McNamara is constrained by DL?

DL cannot block any airline at the North Terminal.

No but they can make the road difficult. I understand they can't block any additions but they can make their disapprove of direct competition or negative impact on their yields will not be tolerated thus curbing how aggressive the WCAA might be about bringing new entrants into this market. You do remember how ATL ran interference for the when QR brought the A380 into ATL and Delta didn't like the fact that QR was opening up shop in ATL. Delta is a very powerful airline.

Buddy, Delta blocked QR from using the A380 in ATL because the A380 gate belonged to Delta. The airport tried, and failed to make Delta budge, but it could not take the gate away. Since Delta owns gates in every concourse in ATL, it wields tremendous influence there.
By the same token, Delta can keep anyone out of McNamara, but it has no influence on what happens in the North Terminal. Best it can do to kick an airline out is to compete its yields to the ground (using connections to make up revenue).
A junkie for A340s, A380s, and of course Her Majesty the Boeing 747. I wish they were financially viable, but it is not to be.
 
jubguy3
Posts: 494
Joined: Sat Jul 29, 2017 6:18 am

Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Wed Jan 10, 2018 2:01 am

klm617 wrote:
PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:
Reposting my post about DET from the 2017 thread:

There is no justification for the city/state/federal government to spend public money to make DET viable for commerical airline operations at this point. It is such an uphill battle it has all the hallmarks of becoming a giant porkbarrel project in light of the fact there is more than ample airfield, airside, and landside capacity at DTW with modern infrastructure and that the region has far more pressing public infrastructure needs that opening another airport for niche or token leisure quasi-charter like operations.

Here is a short list of all of the issues with DET:

Runway width - 100 ft, where most runways used by airlines are 150 ft, which causes significant crosswind limitations
Runway length - 5,090 ft, and has cemeteries located on adjacent properties at both ends. In the current political environment there is no justifiable reason to move grave-sites for a airport/runway that is not needed
Terminal - has been essentially mothballed for over 17 years, and also every furnishing or fixture would need replacing, not to mention likely infestation or mold damage. Who knows the state of the mechanical, electrical, and plumbing systems
Jetbridges - highly unlikely they have been maintained to any sort of operable condition, likely need to be replaced
Security Screening / TSA - would need to invest millions to install modern security screening, systems, certify/inspect the terminal space and set-up back-office support. Not to mention actually staffing the TSA screening
Concessions - need to build-out basic airport concessions
Parking - very limited parking in and around the terminal, would need to set-up parking lots, repave lots, etc.
Rental Cars - would need to get rental car vendors established
ARFF - not sure that DET still have ARFF capabilities for airline service, might need upgraded equipment here
Access - need to install all sorts of directional signage from I-94, probably need to repave/rebuilt Conner Ave from I-94

All for a handful of token flights?

For as convenient as DET may be to Macomb County, its just as inconvenient to the other parts of Metro Detroit. If DTW were constrained in any aspect then there might be case for DET but with all of the capacity and infrastructure in place DTW its not a good use of public or private funds to make DET viable again for large-scale commercial flights.



DTW is constrained by Delta Airlines.


Jesus f*cking christ. Your city is shrinking and yet DL seems to run one of the most efficient hubs in the US in DTW. DTW is the only city in the Americas with a flight to Nagoya. DTW has a wide range of TPAC flights. I am honestly sick of hearing you moan and moan about DTW not having enough and ATL having too much. I don't know how many people have said this, and I have held back saying this before, but it is truly infuriating to listen to you ramble on and on. Just please for the love of god stop.

Who would free DTW? Spirit Airlines? Would Spirit give you your nonstop to Barcelona, Milan and Bangkok? Without Delta, DTW is just another Cleveland or St. Louis. Please, for the love of god, stop. You have Delta stockholm syndrome. You expect so much from them but resent them at the same time? I am utterly confused. Go away.
 
TryToFlySomeday
Posts: 250
Joined: Wed Aug 30, 2017 9:51 pm

Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Wed Jan 10, 2018 2:12 am

jubguy3 wrote:
klm617 wrote:
PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:
Reposting my post about DET from the 2017 thread:

There is no justification for the city/state/federal government to spend public money to make DET viable for commerical airline operations at this point. It is such an uphill battle it has all the hallmarks of becoming a giant porkbarrel project in light of the fact there is more than ample airfield, airside, and landside capacity at DTW with modern infrastructure and that the region has far more pressing public infrastructure needs that opening another airport for niche or token leisure quasi-charter like operations.

Here is a short list of all of the issues with DET:

Runway width - 100 ft, where most runways used by airlines are 150 ft, which causes significant crosswind limitations
Runway length - 5,090 ft, and has cemeteries located on adjacent properties at both ends. In the current political environment there is no justifiable reason to move grave-sites for a airport/runway that is not needed
Terminal - has been essentially mothballed for over 17 years, and also every furnishing or fixture would need replacing, not to mention likely infestation or mold damage. Who knows the state of the mechanical, electrical, and plumbing systems
Jetbridges - highly unlikely they have been maintained to any sort of operable condition, likely need to be replaced
Security Screening / TSA - would need to invest millions to install modern security screening, systems, certify/inspect the terminal space and set-up back-office support. Not to mention actually staffing the TSA screening
Concessions - need to build-out basic airport concessions
Parking - very limited parking in and around the terminal, would need to set-up parking lots, repave lots, etc.
Rental Cars - would need to get rental car vendors established
ARFF - not sure that DET still have ARFF capabilities for airline service, might need upgraded equipment here
Access - need to install all sorts of directional signage from I-94, probably need to repave/rebuilt Conner Ave from I-94

All for a handful of token flights?

For as convenient as DET may be to Macomb County, its just as inconvenient to the other parts of Metro Detroit. If DTW were constrained in any aspect then there might be case for DET but with all of the capacity and infrastructure in place DTW its not a good use of public or private funds to make DET viable again for large-scale commercial flights.



DTW is constrained by Delta Airlines.


Jesus f*cking christ. Your city is shrinking and yet DL seems to run one of the most efficient hubs in the US in DTW. DTW is the only city in the Americas with a flight to Nagoya. DTW has a wide range of TPAC flights. I am honestly sick of hearing you moan and moan about DTW not having enough and ATL having too much. I don't know how many people have said this, and I have held back saying this before, but it is truly infuriating to listen to you ramble on and on. Just please for the love of god stop.

Who would free DTW? Spirit Airlines? Would Spirit give you your nonstop to Barcelona, Milan and Bangkok? Without Delta, DTW is just another Cleveland or St. Louis. Please, for the love of god, stop. You have Delta stockholm syndrome. You expect so much from them but resent them at the same time? I am utterly confused. Go away.


Well said. I couldn't agree more. Cause for gosh sakes, he makes every DTW poster look bad. I love DTW, but I don't expect freaking every airline to come serve DTW over ORD.
Hi, I'm TryToFlySomeday. A guy who likes to analyze airlines, and loves road trips & airplane trips. Founder of the Roadgeeking Section and Pakistan Aviation Threads.

American-born Pakistani based in ORD. Favorite cities: ORD / GRR / DTW
 
jordanh
Posts: 161
Joined: Fri Sep 08, 2017 11:56 pm

Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Wed Jan 10, 2018 2:31 am

TryToFlySomeday wrote:
jubguy3 wrote:
klm617 wrote:
DTW is constrained by Delta Airlines.

Jesus f*cking christ. Your city is shrinking and yet DL seems to run one of the most efficient hubs in the US in DTW. DTW is the only city in the Americas with a flight to Nagoya. DTW has a wide range of TPAC flights. I am honestly sick of hearing you moan and moan about DTW not having enough and ATL having too much. I don't know how many people have said this, and I have held back saying this before, but it is truly infuriating to listen to you ramble on and on. Just please for the love of god stop.
Who would free DTW? Spirit Airlines? Would Spirit give you your nonstop to Barcelona, Milan and Bangkok? Without Delta, DTW is just another Cleveland or St. Louis. Please, for the love of god, stop. You have Delta stockholm syndrome. You expect so much from them but resent them at the same time? I am utterly confused. Go away.

Well said. I couldn't agree more. Cause for gosh sakes, he makes every DTW poster look bad. I love DTW, but I don't expect freaking every airline to come serve DTW over ORD.


But don't you know, he is a "leader". He just told us so! :rotfl:
 
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flymco753
Posts: 2354
Joined: Fri Jun 10, 2016 2:09 am

Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Wed Jan 10, 2018 2:47 am

To put this thread back onto a positive note, I think the with G4 expanding to SRQ, there could a future with G4 at DTW.

Internal sources have told me DL’s DTW-SRQ Route was one of DTW’s most profitable DL routes and it’s being cut because of DL’s drawback of intra-Florida service to better fuel ATL’s Florida flights. The only issue G4 would have is, they’d want to start SFB/PIE/PGD/FLL indefinitely, and probably SRQ/JAX/VPS/AUS to another degree. NK has locked onto the Detroit to Orlando, Tampa, Fort Myers and Miami Area flights and DL runs basic economy on all Florida flights aside from JAX and SRQ (which are price locked by monopoly). There’s virtually no room for the slightest of more ULCC’s to these markets other than TPA which will most likely see F9 next winter and ORL which is better off with B6 than G4 into an airport people from Detroit wouldn’t use. The I-4 corridor between Orlando and Tampa is where Detroiters are most obsessed with, SFB at that point is a nuisance.

The point is, for G4 to work at DTW, there’s going to have to be some serious planning involved and expansion beyond your typical SFB/PIE/PGD stations. Put it this way, if PIT and IND can support year round SRQ flights, there’s no reason DTW can’t even once weekly in the summer. NW did it, twice daily in the winter actually.
Resort, and other ground transportation options are on level 1.

*Future Route Network Planner*
 
PSU.DTW.SCE
Posts: 6618
Joined: Mon Jan 28, 2002 11:45 am

Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Wed Jan 10, 2018 3:12 am

flymco753 wrote:
To put this thread back onto a positive note, I think the with G4 expanding to SRQ, there could a future with G4 at DTW.

Internal sources have told me DL’s DTW-SRQ Route was one of DTW’s most profitable DL routes and it’s being cut because of DL’s drawback of intra-Florida service to better fuel ATL’s Florida flights..

I'm calling the B.S. flag on this one. If it were the most profitable it would likely be flown more that Saturday-only seasonal. I think you've been fed some info from people that don't have access to the data.

The approach that many are taking here and may of these "XYZ air service discussion" threads on a.net take a very myopic approach. The reality is that airlines make route planning decisions starting at a network perspective on where they want to invest their resources that are (in theory) have the highest return on investment or fund strategic growth. They don't necessarily look at each individual market and say, "boy we have to grow DTW by going to ABC, XYZ". Route planning looks at options across the board. No airline has targeted DTW as a strategic growth market where they are willing to make long term investments to gain a place in the market, like what DL has done over the past decade in NYC or SEA.

So like the discussion about TK, sure we can go back and forth about the merits of TK but you can't look at DTW in isolation. You have to consider the other markets that are being looked at where TK would want to invest resources to grow the business and are markets like SEA, DEN, etc. etc more likely to get service before they consider investing resources and starting service in DTW.
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