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atcsundevil
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Phoenix Aviation Thread - 2018

Sun Dec 31, 2017 4:45 pm

Continued from the 2017 discussion, which can be found here:

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1349023

Have a happy 2018!
 
travaz
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Re: Phoenix Aviation Thread - 2018

Sun Dec 31, 2017 5:38 pm

Thanks ATC here's to many major advances for PHX Aviation in 2018.
 
wn676
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Re: Phoenix Aviation Thread - 2018

Mon Jan 01, 2018 2:30 am

Happy New Year all!

A couple of items regarding T3 that I came across recently:

- An RFQ went out for the reconstruction of the T3N apron. This will replace all of the panels between the building face and roughly the tail limit line on he north concourse. I believe the contract was awarded to Dibble, which has been heavily involved with the T3 Modernization project.

- I’ve heard that there will be a carrier shuffle between T3N and T3S with DL possibly moving into the new south concourse. That would leave AS, HA, and UA in the north concourse. Not sure how the final gate allocation will end up or where B6, NK, F9, and SY will go, but imagine this also helps phase the north concourse renovation, apron reconstruction, and T2 demolition.
Tiny, unreadable text leaves ample room for interpretation.
 
alasizon
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Re: Phoenix Aviation Thread - 2018

Tue Jan 02, 2018 6:37 pm

wn676 wrote:
Happy New Year all!

A couple of items regarding T3 that I came across recently:

- An RFQ went out for the reconstruction of the T3N apron. This will replace all of the panels between the building face and roughly the tail limit line on he north concourse. I believe the contract was awarded to Dibble, which has been heavily involved with the T3 Modernization project.

- I’ve heard that there will be a carrier shuffle between T3N and T3S with DL possibly moving into the new south concourse. That would leave AS, HA, and UA in the north concourse. Not sure how the final gate allocation will end up or where B6, NK, F9, and SY will go, but imagine this also helps phase the north concourse renovation, apron reconstruction, and T2 demolition.


If the carrier shuffle is true, I could see DL & UA end up in T3S plus 4B/ZK. Should leave enough room for everybody. I'm not sure what those three gates on the other side of the Sky Train are going to be capable of. If they end up capable of RJs, then UA may use one of those as well. I'm trying to figure out how SY wouldn't have originally had a home in T3S given the fact I could find a "spare" gate unless somehow I'm underestimating how many gates someone wants.

DL: F1-F7
UA: F8-F12
4B/ZK: F13-F15

AS: 15/16/17
NK: 23
HA: 24
B6: 26
F9: 19/20
SY: 18
Spare: 25
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alasizon
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Re: Phoenix Aviation Thread - 2018

Thu Jan 04, 2018 7:46 pm

Anyone hear an update on the revised ALP? I'm surprised it didn't come out by the end of 2017.
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allegiantflyer
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Re: Phoenix Aviation Thread - 2018

Thu Jan 04, 2018 8:21 pm

Happy New Year!

I have heard rumors about Dl opening a lounge in PHX, any thoughts?
 
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JustWingIt
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Re: Phoenix Aviation Thread - 2018

Thu Jan 04, 2018 9:32 pm

Since UA has a lounge in T2, which will be demolished, what do you all think will happen to it
Aviation puns make life infinitely better when people thrust them at you. Sorry, had to just wing it there. I would pitch you another one, but that would cause this signature to drag a bit, so that's all, fellow aviators.
 
alasizon
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Re: Phoenix Aviation Thread - 2018

Thu Jan 04, 2018 9:49 pm

JustWingIt wrote:
Since UA has a lounge in T2, which will be demolished, what do you all think will happen to it


My understanding was that there was only 1 lounge space in the new T3S so if DL & UA both cohabitate in T3S, I'd see DL as being the one that wants the lounge more.
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JustWingIt
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Re: Phoenix Aviation Thread - 2018

Thu Jan 04, 2018 11:35 pm

alasizon wrote:
JustWingIt wrote:
Since UA has a lounge in T2, which will be demolished, what do you all think will happen to it


My understanding was that there was only 1 lounge space in the new T3S so if DL & UA both cohabitate in T3S, I'd see DL as being the one that wants the lounge more.


Yeah that was also my thought. That makes sense because out of all the airlines that are not AA or WN, DL definitely has the largest presence in PHX, with UA not terribly far behind.
Aviation puns make life infinitely better when people thrust them at you. Sorry, had to just wing it there. I would pitch you another one, but that would cause this signature to drag a bit, so that's all, fellow aviators.
 
chrisair
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Re: Phoenix Aviation Thread - 2018

Thu Jan 04, 2018 11:57 pm

JustWingIt wrote:
Since UA has a lounge in T2, which will be demolished, what do you all think will happen to it


More importantly, I hope the Snowman tree that lives in the UA lounge will continue to have a new home in T3. Whomever took his suitcase this year: you have no shame. :biggrin:

And I really hope AS isn't stuck in the "old" concourse (T3N), during renovations.
 
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JustWingIt
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Re: Phoenix Aviation Thread - 2018

Fri Jan 05, 2018 1:14 am

chrisair wrote:
JustWingIt wrote:
Since UA has a lounge in T2, which will be demolished, what do you all think will happen to it


More importantly, I hope the Snowman tree that lives in the UA lounge will continue to have a new home in T3. Whomever took his suitcase this year: you have no shame. :biggrin:


Oh yeah, I saw that while flying out on AS. It's kinda fun to look at occasionally. :mrgreen:
Aviation puns make life infinitely better when people thrust them at you. Sorry, had to just wing it there. I would pitch you another one, but that would cause this signature to drag a bit, so that's all, fellow aviators.
 
Lennundus
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Re: Phoenix Aviation Thread - 2018

Fri Jan 05, 2018 2:54 am

alasizon wrote:
JustWingIt wrote:
Since UA has a lounge in T2, which will be demolished, what do you all think will happen to it


My understanding was that there was only 1 lounge space in the new T3S so if DL & UA both cohabitate in T3S, I'd see DL as being the one that wants the lounge more.


I thought DL would stay in T3N, and from renderings it looked like there was a plan for a lounge?

Also, is it likely we will hear any INTL announcements this year?
 
wn676
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Re: Phoenix Aviation Thread - 2018

Fri Jan 05, 2018 3:10 am

Lennundus wrote:
alasizon wrote:
JustWingIt wrote:
Since UA has a lounge in T2, which will be demolished, what do you all think will happen to it


My understanding was that there was only 1 lounge space in the new T3S so if DL & UA both cohabitate in T3S, I'd see DL as being the one that wants the lounge more.


I thought DL would stay in T3N, and from renderings it looked like there was a plan for a lounge?

Also, is it likely we will hear any INTL announcements this year?


As of right now my understanding is that DL will be vacating T3N, with AS and UA filling the void. This would allow both DL and UA to operate clubs and continue the current use of UA’s club by AS.
Last edited by wn676 on Fri Jan 05, 2018 3:19 am, edited 2 times in total.
Tiny, unreadable text leaves ample room for interpretation.
 
wn676
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Re: Phoenix Aviation Thread - 2018

Fri Jan 05, 2018 3:14 am

alasizon wrote:
wn676 wrote:
Happy New Year all!

A couple of items regarding T3 that I came across recently:

- An RFQ went out for the reconstruction of the T3N apron. This will replace all of the panels between the building face and roughly the tail limit line on he north concourse. I believe the contract was awarded to Dibble, which has been heavily involved with the T3 Modernization project.

- I’ve heard that there will be a carrier shuffle between T3N and T3S with DL possibly moving into the new south concourse. That would leave AS, HA, and UA in the north concourse. Not sure how the final gate allocation will end up or where B6, NK, F9, and SY will go, but imagine this also helps phase the north concourse renovation, apron reconstruction, and T2 demolition.


If the carrier shuffle is true, I could see DL & UA end up in T3S plus 4B/ZK. Should leave enough room for everybody. I'm not sure what those three gates on the other side of the Sky Train are going to be capable of. If they end up capable of RJs, then UA may use one of those as well. I'm trying to figure out how SY wouldn't have originally had a home in T3S given the fact I could find a "spare" gate unless somehow I'm underestimating how many gates someone wants.

DL: F1-F7
UA: F8-F12
4B/ZK: F13-F15

AS: 15/16/17
NK: 23
HA: 24
B6: 26
F9: 19/20
SY: 18
Spare: 25


F13-15 should be capable of handling ADG-II aircraft from what I remember. There was a jet blast study conducted a couple of years ago in the proposed alley between T3S and the COP ops building. This could be of use to DL in addition to 4B and ZK.
Tiny, unreadable text leaves ample room for interpretation.
 
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atcsundevil
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Re: Phoenix Aviation Thread - 2018

Fri Jan 05, 2018 6:43 am

I'm pretty sure both sides of T3 have allocated space for clubs, no? I seem to recall some sort of official confirmation a while back that the United Club would indeed transfer over with the new club design, which is why they hadn't planned any further updates to the current club. The Delta side also had lounge space allocated from some mockup I saw, and I think someone on here seemed to indicate that it would be happening.

Ideally, they'd both have lounges, obviously. Delta has a large enough operation to warrant reopening a lounge. United has kept their PHX lounge despite closing numerous others, which indicates there's a reason for keeping it beyond cheap leasing space in T2. My understanding is that PHX has long been very elite heavy. That certainly seemed to be the case during my years as a UA 1K. There were consistently one or two GS passengers on many of my flights. It would be great to see PHX get the new lounge design, because it would mix well with the spectacular architecture of the new T3...same goes for DL with their lounge design.
 
alasizon
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Re: Phoenix Aviation Thread - 2018

Fri Jan 05, 2018 5:10 pm

atcsundevil wrote:
I'm pretty sure both sides of T3 have allocated space for clubs, no? I seem to recall some sort of official confirmation a while back that the United Club would indeed transfer over with the new club design, which is why they hadn't planned any further updates to the current club. The Delta side also had lounge space allocated from some mockup I saw, and I think someone on here seemed to indicate that it would be happening.

Ideally, they'd both have lounges, obviously. Delta has a large enough operation to warrant reopening a lounge. United has kept their PHX lounge despite closing numerous others, which indicates there's a reason for keeping it beyond cheap leasing space in T2. My understanding is that PHX has long been very elite heavy. That certainly seemed to be the case during my years as a UA 1K. There were consistently one or two GS passengers on many of my flights. It would be great to see PHX get the new lounge design, because it would mix well with the spectacular architecture of the new T3...same goes for DL with their lounge design.


Indeed there is lounge space on both sides, it was just a question of whether or not UA & DL would be on opposite sides.

wn676 wrote:
F13-15 should be capable of handling ADG-II aircraft from what I remember. There was a jet blast study conducted a couple of years ago in the proposed alley between T3S and the COP ops building. This could be of use to DL in addition to 4B and ZK.


Do you foresee DL wanting the gates "farther" away from the security checkpoint. To me, it would seem like DL would want the ones closest to the security checkpoint as opposed to ones farther away even if its only a few feet. Then again, DL has limited CR7 ops in PHX so using the gate for one flight a day wouldn't be that odd.
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JustWingIt
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Re: Phoenix Aviation Thread - 2018

Sat Jan 06, 2018 4:04 am

alasizon wrote:
Indeed there is lounge space on both sides, it was just a question of whether or not UA & DL would be on opposite sides


To me that would be the smartest choice, as DL has a fairly large presence in PHX and UA has a lounge in PHX T2 already. Unless they decide to do somwthing weird, I would see that as the choice........at least it would be my choice
Aviation puns make life infinitely better when people thrust them at you. Sorry, had to just wing it there. I would pitch you another one, but that would cause this signature to drag a bit, so that's all, fellow aviators.
 
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monsoon84
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Re: Phoenix Aviation Thread - 2018

Mon Jan 08, 2018 1:46 am

Pretty cool devlopment for Gateway,
https://www.abc15.com/news/region-south ... s-expected


How soon do you think this will actually start being built?
 
MO11
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Re: Phoenix Aviation Thread - 2018

Mon Jan 08, 2018 2:52 am

Those "thousands of new flights" will fit right in with all the flight training that goes on there.
 
910A
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Re: Phoenix Aviation Thread - 2018

Mon Jan 08, 2018 3:03 am

monsoon84 wrote:
Pretty cool devlopment for Gateway,
https://www.abc15.com/news/region-south ... s-expected


How soon do you think this will actually start being built?


Not holding my breath..I've been living near the airport for 22 years now, there has been grand promises in the past that hasn't amounted to a pile of beans.
 
travaz
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Re: Phoenix Aviation Thread - 2018

Mon Jan 08, 2018 3:36 am

I can see it now. All the NIMBY folks will be complaining about the noise as most cargo flights will probably operate at night. I think it is a great idea and I hope it comes to fruition. I think it has a huge potential to handle a lot of Amazon movement.
 
MO11
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Re: Phoenix Aviation Thread - 2018

Mon Jan 08, 2018 4:59 am

Unless Amazon decides to move its distribution center, I don't think this is in the cards. And there is no reason to think this would be a nighttime operation, since that is more geared to overnight express. Think more of the stuff that flies through ELP, MFE, or LRD, although IWA isn't exactly on a straight line between Mexican factories and American car plants.
 
cle757
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Re: Phoenix Aviation Thread - 2018

Mon Jan 08, 2018 5:20 am

Ok here is what I've heard, UA is going to T-3 south with at least 10gates and a fairly large new United Club.
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cm642
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Re: Phoenix Aviation Thread - 2018

Mon Jan 08, 2018 8:44 am

cle757 wrote:
Ok here is what I've heard, UA is going to T-3 south with at least 10gates and a fairly large new United Club.



That's a lot of gates and basically almost every entire gate on the south concourse give or take a few. That would basically be enough for a focus city type operation by the way that sounds. I don't even think they use that many gates now in Terminal 2 unless they're planning on increasing capacity out of PHX.
 
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Re: Phoenix Aviation Thread - 2018

Mon Jan 08, 2018 11:39 am

cm642 wrote:
cle757 wrote:
Ok here is what I've heard, UA is going to T-3 south with at least 10gates and a fairly large new United Club.



That's a lot of gates and basically almost every entire gate on the south concourse give or take a few. That would basically be enough for a focus city type operation by the way that sounds. I don't even think they use that many gates now in Terminal 2 unless they're planning on increasing capacity out of PHX.

They only use 5-6 right now. I can't see them needing or using 10 when they only serve seven cities.
 
cle757
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Re: Phoenix Aviation Thread - 2018

Mon Jan 08, 2018 6:55 pm

UA currently has six gate in Terminal 2, gates 3,5,7,6a,6b and 8 and sometimes gate 1 which is shared with Sun Country. Gate 6A is used for overnight maintenence C checks. Usually they tow off between 4 and 6 aircraft that sit on the pad overnight for morning departures.
Cleveland the best location in the Nation
 
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william
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Re: Phoenix Aviation Thread - 2018

Mon Jan 08, 2018 7:52 pm

travaz wrote:
I can see it now. All the NIMBY folks will be complaining about the noise as most cargo flights will probably operate at night. I think it is a great idea and I hope it comes to fruition. I think it has a huge potential to handle a lot of Amazon movement.


Are the NIMBY's complaining about the traffic now?

With three runways there should be more than enough operational headroom for increased traffic along with the flight training going there.
 
skyharborshome
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Re: Phoenix Aviation Thread - 2018

Mon Jan 08, 2018 8:35 pm

allegiantflyer wrote:
Happy New Year!

I have heard rumors about Dl opening a lounge in PHX, any thoughts?


This is confirmed for Fall 2018. They already have a banner up in the Priority check-in line.
Fly CHD!
 
MO11
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Re: Phoenix Aviation Thread - 2018

Mon Jan 08, 2018 8:37 pm

skyharborshome wrote:
allegiantflyer wrote:
Happy New Year!

I have heard rumors about Dl opening a lounge in PHX, any thoughts?


This is confirmed for Fall 2018. They already have a banner up in the Priority check-in line.


Norwegian Air UK (DI) is opening a lounge in PHX?
 
skyharborshome
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Re: Phoenix Aviation Thread - 2018

Mon Jan 08, 2018 8:43 pm

MO11 wrote:
skyharborshome wrote:
allegiantflyer wrote:
Happy New Year!

I have heard rumors about Dl opening a lounge in PHX, any thoughts?


This is confirmed for Fall 2018. They already have a banner up in the Priority check-in line.


Norwegian Air UK (DI) is opening a lounge in PHX?


Haha. Now that would be something. At the rate of their expansion and the reluctance of int'l carriers that one could be next!

https://www.instagram.com/p/Bc-jKmigFLz/?taken-by=kilomikechd
Fly CHD!
 
wn676
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Re: Phoenix Aviation Thread - 2018

Mon Jan 08, 2018 9:04 pm

cle757 wrote:
UA currently has six gate in Terminal 2, gates 3,5,7,6a,6b and 8 and sometimes gate 1 which is shared with Sun Country. Gate 6A is used for overnight maintenence C checks. Usually they tow off between 4 and 6 aircraft that sit on the pad overnight for morning departures.


I believe the minimum number of gates they can operate with is 4, with 7 required for a no-tow scenario.
Tiny, unreadable text leaves ample room for interpretation.
 
wn676
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Re: Phoenix Aviation Thread - 2018

Mon Jan 08, 2018 9:13 pm

alasizon wrote:
atcsundevil wrote:
I'm pretty sure both sides of T3 have allocated space for clubs, no? I seem to recall some sort of official confirmation a while back that the United Club would indeed transfer over with the new club design, which is why they hadn't planned any further updates to the current club. The Delta side also had lounge space allocated from some mockup I saw, and I think someone on here seemed to indicate that it would be happening.

Ideally, they'd both have lounges, obviously. Delta has a large enough operation to warrant reopening a lounge. United has kept their PHX lounge despite closing numerous others, which indicates there's a reason for keeping it beyond cheap leasing space in T2. My understanding is that PHX has long been very elite heavy. That certainly seemed to be the case during my years as a UA 1K. There were consistently one or two GS passengers on many of my flights. It would be great to see PHX get the new lounge design, because it would mix well with the spectacular architecture of the new T3...same goes for DL with their lounge design.


Indeed there is lounge space on both sides, it was just a question of whether or not UA & DL would be on opposite sides.

wn676 wrote:
F13-15 should be capable of handling ADG-II aircraft from what I remember. There was a jet blast study conducted a couple of years ago in the proposed alley between T3S and the COP ops building. This could be of use to DL in addition to 4B and ZK.


Do you foresee DL wanting the gates "farther" away from the security checkpoint. To me, it would seem like DL would want the ones closest to the security checkpoint as opposed to ones farther away even if its only a few feet. Then again, DL has limited CR7 ops in PHX so using the gate for one flight a day wouldn't be that odd.


I’m not sure which gates DL will end up with at T3S, but IIRC the ADG-IV gates and one of the ADG-V swing gates were located towards the western half of the concourse.

Also, it looks like AC will be relocating to T3.

So, a final carriers at T3 post-NC renovation seems to be:

4B
AC/RV
AS
B6
F9
HA
NK
SY
UA
ZK
Tiny, unreadable text leaves ample room for interpretation.
 
skyharborshome
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Re: Phoenix Aviation Thread - 2018

Mon Jan 08, 2018 10:02 pm

Seems like T3 is filling up pretty quick when you include all the displaced T2 tenants. I know it has been mentioned that someone could get punted to T4. Would that be in the new D concourse (when is that opening by the way) or slotted in on the American side with their slow and steady plane volume decline?
Fly CHD!
 
cle757
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Re: Phoenix Aviation Thread - 2018

Tue Jan 09, 2018 12:39 am

If AC is really moving to T-3 , I would think UA would probably take over ground handling for the star alliance and easy access to the UA club. Sun Country and Spirit could almost share a gate or two.
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Re: Phoenix Aviation Thread - 2018

Tue Jan 09, 2018 12:46 am

skyharborshome wrote:
Seems like T3 is filling up pretty quick when you include all the displaced T2 tenants. I know it has been mentioned that someone could get punted to T4. Would that be in the new D concourse (when is that opening by the way) or slotted in on the American side with their slow and steady plane volume decline?

As far as I can tell, capacity for the renovated terminal should be right around what's needed. It's a lot of carriers, but the majority of ops will be with United, Delta, Alaska, and to a lesser extent Frontier. JetBlue and Sun Country only have two or three daily ops each, Hawaiian only has the one, and Spirit has a handful. Boutique and Great Lakes don't really count, especially because Lakes Air could literally die at any moment, and neither one really ties up gate space or resources. If Rouge comes over, that'll add a few more flights, but there could even be room for WestJet as well. There's no need for either of them to be in T4 since all flights are precleared, so they can basically go where there's room.

I think there should actually be some room for growth. T2 has ten gates, but things are only really busy in the early morning, with minor spikes in the late morning and afternoon. Outside of those times, most gates sit vacant. The new terminal should actually net a few additional gates over the current number, if I'm not mistaken.

S1 is projected to open around 2021ish, but I could be wrong. Southwest has dibbs, but I expect them to vacate a concourse, either in whole or in part (probably S4). That would give the city some options to renovate S4, including potentially expanding FIS to the south side. They could then either lease to other carriers (potentially relieving the future E/F concourses) or operate them as common use like N4. I think there is an option in the S1 plans for FIS in the basement, but I haven't seen anything that indicates they'll pursue that option.
 
AntonioMartin
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Re: Phoenix Aviation Thread - 2018

Tue Jan 09, 2018 12:51 am

[threeid][/threeid]
Wonder if Cargolux or NCA perhaps have plans for Mesa?
 
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william
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Re: Phoenix Aviation Thread - 2018

Tue Jan 09, 2018 12:59 am

atcsundevil wrote:
skyharborshome wrote:
Seems like T3 is filling up pretty quick when you include all the displaced T2 tenants. I know it has been mentioned that someone could get punted to T4. Would that be in the new D concourse (when is that opening by the way) or slotted in on the American side with their slow and steady plane volume decline?

As far as I can tell, capacity for the renovated terminal should be right around what's needed. It's a lot of carriers, but the majority of ops will be with United, Delta, Alaska, and to a lesser extent Frontier. JetBlue and Sun Country only have two or three daily ops each, Hawaiian only has the one, and Spirit has a handful. Boutique and Great Lakes don't really count, especially because Lakes Air could literally die at any moment, and neither one really ties up gate space or resources. If Rouge comes over, that'll add a few more flights, but there could even be room for WestJet as well. There's no need for either of them to be in T4 since all flights are precleared, so they can basically go where there's room.

I think there should actually be some room for growth. T2 has ten gates, but things are only really busy in the early morning, with minor spikes in the late morning and afternoon. Outside of those times, most gates sit vacant. The new terminal should actually net a few additional gates over the current number, if I'm not mistaken.

S1 is projected to open around 2021ish, but I could be wrong. Southwest has dibbs, but I expect them to vacate a concourse, either in whole or in part (probably S4). That would give the city some options to renovate S4, including potentially expanding FIS to the south side. They could then either lease to other carriers (potentially relieving the future E/F concourses) or operate them as common use like N4. I think there is an option in the S1 plans for FIS in the basement, but I haven't seen anything that indicates they'll pursue that option.


Is S1 the empty lot on the south side, and why would SWA want to move there when they have the other three concourse?

https://www.google.com/maps/place/Phoen ... 12.0077881
 
hz747300
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Re: Phoenix Aviation Thread - 2018

Tue Jan 09, 2018 1:29 am

I taxied by T3S last week and the progress was impressive. I had a baby in my lap, otherwise I would have tried to get a picture for you all to post here. Looks nice. I agree 10 gates for UA is a lot unless they are planning some wicked expansion at PHX.
Keep on truckin'...
 
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atcsundevil
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Re: Phoenix Aviation Thread - 2018

Tue Jan 09, 2018 1:29 am

william wrote:
Is S1 the empty lot on the south side, and why would SWA want to move there when they have the other three concourse?

https://www.google.com/maps/place/Phoen ... 12.0077881

It is. S1 will officially complete the build out of Terminal 4, so this is 30 years of planning coming to its completion. They want S1 because it'll be a shiny new building, potentially with future FIS capability. Their moving into S1 is what effectively green-lighted the project, so this isn't speculation — they will definitely be moving into S1 when complete. FIS wouldn't have mattered a few years ago obviously, but ops to Mexico and the Caribbean from PHX aren't a matter of if, but when. If they had to operate from the current FIS in N4, it would be a pretty big headache, and make connections a massive pain.

That's why it's pretty clear to me that they'll vacate most if all of one concourse when S1 opens, probably S4 (S3 and S4 are both older than S2). They don't need the capacity of all four concourses, and I don't think they'll care about losing exclusivity on C/D. If FIS doesn't go into S1, then the city can renovate S3 and S4, and potentially put FIS into S4. The current FIS facilities have been reaching their limits, so they'll need a long term plan for international growth. Having FIS on the south side will make Southwest international ops feasible.
 
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Re: Phoenix Aviation Thread - 2018

Tue Jan 09, 2018 1:44 am

hz747300 wrote:
I taxied by T3S last week and the progress was impressive. I had a baby in my lap, otherwise I would have tried to get a picture for you all to post here. Looks nice. I agree 10 gates for UA is a lot unless they are planning some wicked expansion at PHX.

The only expansion I can imagine coming from UA is added frequencies to existing routes, and potentially a shift from Express to mainline on some frequencies.

United doesn't do point-to-point, and they already serve every domestic hub. IAD is down to once daily, EWR is down to 2-3 daily, ORD/LAX/IAH is generally 3-4 daily, and SFO/DEN is generally 4-5 daily. There's actually less frequency and in some cases smaller aircraft (not to mention the loss of CLE) than what existed around the time of the merger. Before the merger, UA and CO regularly used 757s (even -300s in CO's case), and UA subbed in 763s or 772s on occasion. Everything now is Airbus and 737 plus Express, pretty much without exception.

So, I don't foresee any new routes, and any meaningful increase in aircraft size or frequency would be easily absorbed by their current gate count.
 
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Re: Phoenix Aviation Thread - 2018

Tue Jan 09, 2018 3:52 am

Speaking of S4, any news if anything will happen to gate C12?

After WN retired the 737-300s, that gate has been virtually useless (as it can't accommodate the 737NGs) and as of now has a lot of WN ground equipment parked around it.

Are the gates going to be restriped? Would they be willing to lease it to AA? Or is it going to be a vacant gate until S1 opens?
 
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Re: Phoenix Aviation Thread - 2018

Tue Jan 09, 2018 4:25 am

atcsundevil wrote:
If Rouge comes over, that'll add a few more flights, but there could even be room for WestJet as well. There's no need for either of them to be in T4 since all flights are precleared, so they can basically go where there's room.

Not all of WestJet’s flights are precleared. YLW, YQR, and YXE lack the facilities. That would be the only thing keeping them on N4.
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Re: Phoenix Aviation Thread - 2018

Tue Jan 09, 2018 4:38 am

wn676 wrote:
atcsundevil wrote:
If Rouge comes over, that'll add a few more flights, but there could even be room for WestJet as well. There's no need for either of them to be in T4 since all flights are precleared, so they can basically go where there's room.

Not all of WestJet’s flights are precleared. YLW, YQR, and YXE lack the facilities. That would be the only thing keeping them on N4.

That's right — I always forget how many destinations they serve since nearly all of them are seasonal. Air Canada/Rouge could definitely go back to T3 though. It doesn't seem like that long ago that they moved to T4, but it's probably been about nine years now.
 
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Re: Phoenix Aviation Thread - 2018

Tue Jan 09, 2018 4:53 am

atcsundevil wrote:
United doesn't do point-to-point, and they already serve every domestic hub. IAD is down to once daily, EWR is down to 2-3 daily, ORD/LAX/IAH is generally 3-4 daily, and SFO/DEN is generally 4-5 daily. There's actually less frequency and in some cases smaller aircraft (not to mention the loss of CLE) than what existed around the time of the merger. Before the merger, UA and CO regularly used 757s (even -300s in CO's case), and UA subbed in 763s or 772s on occasion. Everything now is Airbus and 737 plus Express, pretty much without exception.

So, I don't foresee any new routes, and any meaningful increase in aircraft size or frequency would be easily absorbed by their current gate count.


I don't disagree with that. Delta seems to carry more passengers at PHX anyways--I'd be surprised if UA needs more than five gates.
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Re: Phoenix Aviation Thread - 2018

Tue Jan 09, 2018 8:24 pm

atcsundevil wrote:
That's right — I always forget how many destinations they serve since nearly all of them are seasonal. Air Canada/Rouge could definitely go back to T3 though. It doesn't seem like that long ago that they moved to T4, but it's probably been about nine years now.


AC badly needs to go back to T3. From my understanding, they are unhappy being in T4 and routinely complain about gates not being made available to their late arrivals on Rouge (the gates are used for the on-time flights instead). When its the Jazz operation, it runs quite smoothly though.
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Re: Phoenix Aviation Thread - 2018

Tue Jan 09, 2018 9:25 pm

alasizon wrote:
AC badly needs to go back to T3. From my understanding, they are unhappy being in T4 and routinely complain about gates not being made available to their late arrivals on Rouge (the gates are used for the on-time flights instead). When its the Jazz operation, it runs quite smoothly though.

The only rationale behind moving them from T3 to T4 was for Star Alliance connectivity with US Airways. Their move was maybe only two years after the merger, so back then it did make sense. That rationale is obviously gone now, so if anything, they should be more closely located with the only Star carrier at the airport. I doubt there would be much feed between Air Canada and United, but they're more likely to work together on ground handling contracts and such than they would with anybody else. At this point, there's no reason for Air Canada to be in T4, and since the N4 pier has been stretched pretty thin at times in recent years, there should be motivation to move them out. They probably won't be able to until T3S opens, but once it does, there should be plenty of capacity for them there.
 
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Re: Phoenix Aviation Thread - 2018

Wed Jan 10, 2018 3:18 pm

I think another aspect we may be overlooking is that the city may make these gates common-use, which has the potential to increase gate capacity and utilization without increasing the actual gate count, on the north concourse at least. They are specifying podiums and gate readers as well as a RIDS system which are things that are normally under the purview of the tenant.
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Re: Phoenix Aviation Thread - 2018

Wed Jan 10, 2018 4:09 pm

wn676 wrote:
I think another aspect we may be overlooking is that the city may make these gates common-use, which has the potential to increase gate capacity and utilization without increasing the actual gate count, on the north concourse at least. They are specifying podiums and gate readers as well as a RIDS system which are things that are normally under the purview of the tenant.

That's how it should be, as far as I'm concerned. I understand allowing the hub carriers to have gate exclusivity, but the concept of specifically allocated gates to non-hub tenants seems extremely antiquated. It reduces flexibility and efficiency when things aren't common-use. The city would be smart to go that route. The airlines might pitch a bit of a fit, but they'll get over it.
 
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Re: Phoenix Aviation Thread - 2018

Wed Jan 10, 2018 10:38 pm

atcsundevil wrote:
wn676 wrote:
I think another aspect we may be overlooking is that the city may make these gates common-use, which has the potential to increase gate capacity and utilization without increasing the actual gate count, on the north concourse at least. They are specifying podiums and gate readers as well as a RIDS system which are things that are normally under the purview of the tenant.

That's how it should be, as far as I'm concerned. I understand allowing the hub carriers to have gate exclusivity, but the concept of specifically allocated gates to non-hub tenants seems extremely antiquated. It reduces flexibility and efficiency when things aren't common-use. The city would be smart to go that route. The airlines might pitch a bit of a fit, but they'll get over it.


I think even if the airlines end up having exclusive use of a gate, it'll be a bit like what they are doing in SEA with the NorthSTAR project, SEA specfies how the base equipment for the gate looks and anything a tenant adds after that is a TI project.
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travaz
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Re: Phoenix Aviation Thread - 2018

Thu Jan 11, 2018 1:03 am

I would think that gates could be designed to be rapidly switched from Airline to Airline. Set up some strategically placed flat screens and with a few keystrokes switch all identification from one airline to another.
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