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User avatar
SumChristianus
Posts: 175
Joined: Tue Jan 09, 2018 3:00 am

Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread - 2018

Wed Jan 24, 2018 5:22 pm

Midwestindy wrote:
Official numbers are out for the airport

https://www.indianapolisairport.com/abo ... tory-again
https://d1j6zi7czwjuok.cloudfront.net/i ... Report.pdf

Total Pax-8,770,308 only 3% growth, however that growth number is held down by Jan-May, from June-August and Oct-Dec enplanement growth was at around 6%...

AA and DL finished both finished barely under 2 million pax, both had 22.3% market share
AA-1,949,414
DL-1,948,932

WN finished barely under 3 million pax, 33.0%
WN-2,892,167

UA finished with over 1 million pax, 13.5%
G4 finished with 372,014 pax
-----------------------
For 2018, 9 million should be pretty easy, I expect DL and AA to be over 2 million with WN likely over 3 million as well.
-----------------------
From the press release

“Our West Coast growth has been in the works for several years, starting with San Francisco, and has been driven significantly by Indy’s tech sector growth,” said Marsha Stone, senior director of commercial enterprise. “Last year we saw those efforts really take off with the inaugural flight to Seattle via Alaska Airlines and the addition of new nonstop flights into Oakland and San Diego. Nonstop service to West Coast hubs is often cited as a critical factor for corporate relocation and expansion. According to Coldwell Banker Richard Ellis’ “Tech Thirty” report, Indianapolis ranks fourth among major metros in tech employment growth over the last few years."

"Rodriguez said the Indy airport’s growth is also a big vote of confidence from airlines – specific to the Indy market.
That confidence was demonstrated with emphasis last year when Delta Air Lines announced the first-ever, year-round nonstop transatlantic flight from Indy to Paris – a big win for Indiana as a whole with the potential for $50 million in annual economic impact"


August-October numbers were probably pulled down by Florida/Texas/Carribean disasters. September actually had a YOY decline, but its interesting to see that growth accelerated through the second half of the year compared to the first half. SFO (UA and VX) and G4 seemed the only major growth areas during that part of the year.

Do you think IND-California routes were affected much in demand by the California wildfires? It might make California less attractive as a destination from IND, but the total effect is probably miniscule.

Is Marsha Stone also the new director of Air Services Development?

I had previously been in contact with another person, but have not received an answer for months.

I'm guessing 9,100,000 for 2018, just above CVG.
 
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Midwestindy
Posts: 1936
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Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread - 2018

Wed Jan 24, 2018 5:37 pm

SumChristianus wrote:
Midwestindy wrote:
Official numbers are out for the airport

https://www.indianapolisairport.com/abo ... tory-again
https://d1j6zi7czwjuok.cloudfront.net/i ... Report.pdf

Total Pax-8,770,308 only 3% growth, however that growth number is held down by Jan-May, from June-August and Oct-Dec enplanement growth was at around 6%...

AA and DL finished both finished barely under 2 million pax, both had 22.3% market share
AA-1,949,414
DL-1,948,932

WN finished barely under 3 million pax, 33.0%
WN-2,892,167

UA finished with over 1 million pax, 13.5%
G4 finished with 372,014 pax
-----------------------
For 2018, 9 million should be pretty easy, I expect DL and AA to be over 2 million with WN likely over 3 million as well.
-----------------------
From the press release

“Our West Coast growth has been in the works for several years, starting with San Francisco, and has been driven significantly by Indy’s tech sector growth,” said Marsha Stone, senior director of commercial enterprise. “Last year we saw those efforts really take off with the inaugural flight to Seattle via Alaska Airlines and the addition of new nonstop flights into Oakland and San Diego. Nonstop service to West Coast hubs is often cited as a critical factor for corporate relocation and expansion. According to Coldwell Banker Richard Ellis’ “Tech Thirty” report, Indianapolis ranks fourth among major metros in tech employment growth over the last few years."

"Rodriguez said the Indy airport’s growth is also a big vote of confidence from airlines – specific to the Indy market.
That confidence was demonstrated with emphasis last year when Delta Air Lines announced the first-ever, year-round nonstop transatlantic flight from Indy to Paris – a big win for Indiana as a whole with the potential for $50 million in annual economic impact"


August-October numbers were probably pulled down by Florida/Texas/Carribean disasters. September actually had a YOY decline, but its interesting to see that growth accelerated through the second half of the year compared to the first half. SFO (UA and VX) and G4 seemed the only major growth areas during that part of the year.

Do you think IND-California routes were affected much in demand by the California wildfires? It might make California less attractive as a destination from IND, but the total effect is probably miniscule.

Is Marsha Stone also the new director of Air Services Development?

I had previously been in contact with another person, but have not received an answer for months.

I'm guessing 9,100,000 for 2018, just above CVG.


September was the big month were a lot of airports across the country saw dips, mostly to Florida and Houston. The second half of the year benefitted from additional flights to SEA, SFO, AUS, VPS, LAS, SLC, AZA, LAX, YYZ, and SAN

Marsha Stone is "Sr. Director of Commercial Enterprise" but I believe she is on the Air Service Development team...

I don't think IND-California was impacted by the wildfires, but I haven't seen the T100 numbers for NOV/DEC, so we will see.
2018: ATL, BOS, CDG, DCA, DFW, DTW, JFK, IND, LAX, LGA, MIA, MSP, ORD, TPA....Loading....
 
beerbus
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Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread - 2018

Wed Jan 24, 2018 5:54 pm

jplatts wrote:
Will WN ever add IND-MSP nonstop service? There are very few options to connect to MSP from IND on WN with WN only doing 2 daily nonstops in each direction between IND and MDW. In addition, there is actually still more O&D demand to MSP from IND than there is from CVG or CMH, even after F9 added CVG-MSP seasonal nonstop service. DL is also currently the only airline to serve MSP nonstop from IND. WN would also be able to connect passengers to BOS and EWR from MSP through IND if WN adds IND-MSP nonstop service.


I doubt that WN would add INDMSP service. Why? It is service to a DL hub.

1. There is already an incumbent carrier in market- DL
2. DL will proactively battle to retain their marketshare in this city pair against any new entrants.
3. For example, years ago, WN entered the IND DTW market against NW. When WN started flights:
-NW cut fares in the market. WN cut fares, and NW cut them again.
-Added FF miles in the market.
-Added frequencies- there were nine R/T between DTW and IND at one point.
-Added snack service, and additional flight attendants on many of the trips.

WN eventually gave up, and left that city pair. And they haven't returned.

My point is that NW, and DL (which follows the same pattern) push back pretty aggressively against any competition into their hubs. Wouldn't you?

WN is a smart carrier- they'll place their expensive assets in markets where they can command the highest yields.

Why pick a fight to a market that already has an incumbent carrier? There are better uses of their assets than picking a fight in a contested city pair that is also into another airline's hub.

DL makes INDMSP work because a good share of the traffic is connecting traffic beyond MSP to the upper midwest, and mountain west. WN wouldn't have that advantage in MSP.

There's not much to gain for WN by adding INDMSP service in my opinion.
 
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Midwestindy
Posts: 1936
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Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread - 2018

Wed Jan 24, 2018 6:20 pm

beerbus wrote:
I doubt that WN would add INDMSP service. Why? It is service to a DL hub.

1. There is already an incumbent carrier in market- DL
2. DL will proactively battle to retain their marketshare in this city pair against any new entrants.
3. For example, years ago, WN entered the IND DTW market against NW. When WN started flights:
-NW cut fares in the market. WN cut fares, and NW cut them again.
-Added FF miles in the market.
-Added frequencies- there were nine R/T between DTW and IND at one point.
-Added snack service, and additional flight attendants on many of the trips.

WN eventually gave up, and left that city pair. And they haven't returned.

My point is that NW, and DL (which follows the same pattern) push back pretty aggressively against any competition into their hubs. Wouldn't you?

WN is a smart carrier- they'll place their expensive assets in markets where they can command the highest yields.

Why pick a fight to a market that already has an incumbent carrier? There are better uses of their assets than picking a fight in a contested city pair that is also into another airline's hub.


WN just added IND-EWR, going h2h with UA, in 2016 WN added IND-MDW going h2h with AA and UA, at the end of 2015 they added IND-LGA going h2h with DL and AA. So some of WN's recent adds show that they aren't afraid to compete with the US3 at their some of their largest hubs.

At this point, WN is pretty limited in where they can grow out of IND without facing major competition. BNA and SAT are safe adds, but outside of those, if they are going to add any other routes out of IND they will have to face some competition...
2018: ATL, BOS, CDG, DCA, DFW, DTW, JFK, IND, LAX, LGA, MIA, MSP, ORD, TPA....Loading....
 
jplatts
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Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread - 2018

Wed Jan 24, 2018 6:30 pm

Midwestindy wrote:
WN just added IND-EWR, going h2h with UA, in 2016 WN added IND-MDW going h2h with AA and UA, at the end of 2015 they added IND-LGA going h2h with DL and AA. So some of WN's recent adds show that they aren't afraid to compete with the US3 at their some of their largest hubs.

At this point, WN is pretty limited in where they can grow out of IND without facing major competition. BNA and SAT are safe adds, but outside of those, if they are going to add any other routes out of IND they will have to face some competition...


Good point. WN also added IND-DAL nonstop service (which goes head-to-to head with AA IND-DFW nonstop service) almost 3 years ago, but DAL is the home base for WN. In addition, WN will also be starting IND-OAK nonstop service on July 15th, and this new nonstop route will go head to head with IND-SFO nonstop service on UA and AS.
 
zackary747
Posts: 181
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Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread - 2018

Wed Jan 24, 2018 6:34 pm

I think the biggest thing we need to realize is the biggest announcements are 2018 start ups. Most of WNs announcements are 2018 start ups, Allegiant base/new routes are 2018, TATL flight is 2018, and anything else that can come later on this year as it's only Jan.

I view 2017 as a minimal growth 'prep year' to something bigger coming in the following year(s).
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beerbus
Posts: 24
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Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread - 2018

Wed Jan 24, 2018 9:13 pm

jplatts wrote:
Midwestindy wrote:
WN just added IND-EWR, going h2h with UA, in 2016 WN added IND-MDW going h2h with AA and UA, at the end of 2015 they added IND-LGA going h2h with DL and AA. So some of WN's recent adds show that they aren't afraid to compete with the US3 at their some of their largest hubs.

Good point. WN also added IND-DAL nonstop service (which goes head-to-to head with AA IND-DFW nonstop service) almost 3 years ago, but DAL is the home base for WN. In addition, WN will also be starting IND-OAK nonstop service on July 15th, and this new nonstop route will go head to head with IND-SFO nonstop service on UA and AS.


Three points to consider:

1. DAL and OAK are not Hub airports for OAL's. While they are in the same MSA's, there are different economics for those two airports in each MSA. And WN has connecting opportunities beyond both cities. They don't have that opportunity in MSP. I understand why WN would fly to those two cities, in spite of OAL hubs in the same city. But it's an apples to oranges comparison IMHO to MSP.

2. As I previously pointed out, NW, and now DL don't take kindly to OAL invasions into their hubs. They have historically been much more aggressive in defending their hubs than some other legacy carriers. DL would make it painful, and unprofitable for WN between INDMSP. But who knows...maybe WN would add MSP out of spite for DL's hanging on at LUV. haha

3. And I get the WN IND LGA add. It makes sense- in that NY is not dominated by any carrier like MSP is. And the NYC market has an MSA population of over 20 million, a much richer market than MSP.

Which I why I again suggest that WN would find a better return on investment elsewhere than IND MSP.

cheers!
 
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Midwestindy
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Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread - 2018

Wed Jan 24, 2018 9:14 pm

beerbus wrote:
Which I why I again suggest that WN would find a better return on investment elsewhere than IND MSP.
cheers!


So then I pose the question, where (other than SAT and BNA) could WN find better return on investment from IND?
2018: ATL, BOS, CDG, DCA, DFW, DTW, JFK, IND, LAX, LGA, MIA, MSP, ORD, TPA....Loading....
 
Jshank83
Posts: 1232
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Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread - 2018

Wed Jan 24, 2018 9:20 pm

Since they gave up on IND-DTW/LGA so maybe they haven't had the best luck going up against DL in IND? Not saying that would stop them from starting MSP but WN doesn't have much of a route network from MSP. They just recently started MSP-BNA so they don't seem to be in a hurry to expand MSP based on not running to some of their bigger stations (HOU,LAX)
 
zackary747
Posts: 181
Joined: Sat Aug 26, 2017 10:41 am

Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread - 2018

Wed Jan 24, 2018 9:37 pm

Midwestindy wrote:
beerbus wrote:
Which I why I again suggest that WN would find a better return on investment elsewhere than IND MSP.
cheers!


So then I pose the question, where (other than SAT and BNA) could WN find better return on investment from IND?


If WN is still about the 'hop on competition game' (IND-CUN, IND-OAK, IND-AUS) flights from IND-JAX would be a viable option. There is room for them on that route. IND-ECP could also be another add to indirectly compete with G4 at VPS.
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Midwestindy
Posts: 1936
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Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread - 2018

Wed Jan 24, 2018 9:39 pm

Jshank83 wrote:
Since they gave up on IND-DTW/LGA so maybe they haven't had the best luck going up against DL in IND? Not saying that would stop them from starting MSP but WN doesn't have much of a route network from MSP. They just recently started MSP-BNA so they don't seem to be in a hurry to expand MSP based on not running to some of their bigger stations (HOU,LAX)


IND-DTW/DET on WN was at least 10+ years ago, I don't think it even fits into this discussion. For IND-LGA, WN was up against AA and DL...

WN runs IND-LAX(1x)/ATL(3x)/BOS(2x), all three to DL hubs.

Not to mention, WN has added or announced service from MSP to DAL, OAK, BNA, LAS in the past year...
2018: ATL, BOS, CDG, DCA, DFW, DTW, JFK, IND, LAX, LGA, MIA, MSP, ORD, TPA....Loading....
 
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Midwestindy
Posts: 1936
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Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread - 2018

Wed Jan 24, 2018 9:50 pm

zackary747 wrote:
Midwestindy wrote:
beerbus wrote:
Which I why I again suggest that WN would find a better return on investment elsewhere than IND MSP.
cheers!


So then I pose the question, where (other than SAT and BNA) could WN find better return on investment from IND?


If WN is still about the 'hop on competition game' (IND-CUN, IND-OAK, IND-AUS) flights from IND-JAX would be a viable option. There is room for them on that route. IND-ECP could also be another add to indirectly compete with G4 at VPS.


So much of the IND-Florida market is focussed on the Tampa Bay/Fort Myers/Orlando markets and there is very little travel to North Florida. Maybe those could work 1x weekly, but in terms of daily flights I doubt those would work.
2018: ATL, BOS, CDG, DCA, DFW, DTW, JFK, IND, LAX, LGA, MIA, MSP, ORD, TPA....Loading....
 
zackary747
Posts: 181
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Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread - 2018

Wed Jan 24, 2018 9:56 pm

Midwestindy wrote:
zackary747 wrote:
Midwestindy wrote:

So then I pose the question, where (other than SAT and BNA) could WN find better return on investment from IND?


If WN is still about the 'hop on competition game' (IND-CUN, IND-OAK, IND-AUS) flights from IND-JAX would be a viable option. There is room for them on that route. IND-ECP could also be another add to indirectly compete with G4 at VPS.


So much of the IND-Florida market is focussed on the Tampa Bay/Fort Myers/Orlando markets and there is very little travel to North Florida. Maybe those could work 1x weekly, but in terms of daily flights I doubt those would work.


Agreed. You see them doing the MSY and AUS 1x weekly flights. I don't see why they wouldn't do the same to JAX and ECP to compete with G4.

As far as MSP goes, it's a possibility if Sun Country doesn't hop on it. WN does MSP-MCI/BNA/STL. IND is a very similar market and I think there is room for them on that city pair. So, I won't rule MSP out at all and I agree with you on MSP.

When it comes to monopoly markets (which I think they're focused on narrow competition holes first which was proven in the past 3 announcements. They could change things up next time tho.) that could include BNA and SAT.
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FlyingElvii
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Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread - 2018

Wed Jan 24, 2018 10:04 pm

flyboy80 wrote:
Can we talk Delta Focus City viability here for just a moment? There are so many hub locations within 600 miles of Indy that cover all of Delta's major network comfortably it would seem; why on earth would they be interested in creating a focus city here and what benefit would it have? DTW doesn't seem to be at capacity? At one point I thought a focus city might work if the costs were more efficient and CVG wasn't around, but haven't they been adding to CVG again recently? I'm not sure what ads Delta could make in IND... LAS seems flooded with ULCC and WN. The Florida markets are the same way, but Delta does have a big FF base in FL and IN so maybe thats where we'll see a couple more RJ markets and maybe something from Texas announced?


USAir/Airways tried to hub here.
Northwest tried the "Focus City" thing
ATA tried the "Focus City" thing, and now Delta?

Over the years, there just has not been enough premium traffic to support them long term. The factories are gone now. They may be coming back, but it will take years to build up.
 
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Midwestindy
Posts: 1936
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Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread - 2018

Wed Jan 24, 2018 10:08 pm

FlyingElvii wrote:
flyboy80 wrote:
Can we talk Delta Focus City viability here for just a moment? There are so many hub locations within 600 miles of Indy that cover all of Delta's major network comfortably it would seem; why on earth would they be interested in creating a focus city here and what benefit would it have? DTW doesn't seem to be at capacity? At one point I thought a focus city might work if the costs were more efficient and CVG wasn't around, but haven't they been adding to CVG again recently? I'm not sure what ads Delta could make in IND... LAS seems flooded with ULCC and WN. The Florida markets are the same way, but Delta does have a big FF base in FL and IN so maybe thats where we'll see a couple more RJ markets and maybe something from Texas announced?


USAir/Airways tried to hub here.
Northwest tried the "Focus City" thing
ATA tried the "Focus City" thing, and now Delta?

Over the years, there just has not been enough premium traffic to support them long term. The factories are gone now. They may be coming back, but it will take years to build up.


Factories?

Premium traffic was not the reason those experiments failed...
Last edited by Midwestindy on Wed Jan 24, 2018 10:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.
2018: ATL, BOS, CDG, DCA, DFW, DTW, JFK, IND, LAX, LGA, MIA, MSP, ORD, TPA....Loading....
 
FlyingElvii
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Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread - 2018

Wed Jan 24, 2018 10:11 pm

Midwestindy wrote:
Sorry for flooding this thread, just a few things I wanted to point out:

DL updated their schedules this weekend and are now running their premium-heavy 763 (36 J, 32 Y+) for the inaugural IND-CDG flight...

Maybe a sign of things to come if the flights are selling this well so far in advance....? Just look at the seat maps for June 4th and June 6th...

Other things in terms of fleet, DL is adding more 737ERs on ATL-IND and adding a few 737ER flights to DTW and MSP, plus DL is adding the A319 to more flights (MSP, SEA, SLC, LAX, and DTW), which are certainly upgrades from the 717s and MD88s with the new interior updates in the A319s.

Finally, with the additional service to CDG, JFK, and SEA, DL should pass WN for second this summer in terms of peak-daily departures.

SumChristianus wrote:
I think we'll see the following on DL by 2020:
These are things I see as possibilities, approximately in their order of likelihood.

All of those seem reasonable

SumChristianus wrote:
CLT 2x daily CRJ
AMS Seasonal 4x weekly 76W
CDG Increase to A333 daily
EWR 2x Daily CR7

Some of these wouldn't shock me by 2020, maybe not CLT, but if the CDG does well maybe they upguage to an A339/A332/e.t.c

SumChristianus wrote:
DL moves DTW hub to IND. "We've always hated Detroit, and so, when we got the chance to move our flights to IND and build a new $2,400,000,000 terminal, we jumped at the chance," said Delta CEO Edward Bastian. "IND gave us a great offer, and we want them to be our new CVG. We're starting Comair 2.0 which will operate 400 daily CRJ flights out of IND and we plan to increase fares to $600 on average, no, make that exact. Saves on bookkeeping costs. We look forward to reducing local demand, making IND a 95% connecting hub, and then dehub the airport in 10 years moving all its flights to ATL. ATL will see 16 daily A321s to MKE, for example, as IND, CVG, DTW, and RDU flights, consolidated at ATL, make it a 1600 daily flight hub. Just watch EK and QR try to land when we've jammed that place!

"We thank IND for the support it will have to give us as we crowd everyone else out. AA, DL, and WN, will be allowed 3 daily flights each maximum and want to tell you to enjoy your $855 basic economy fare on one of our 11 daily CRJs to CVG!"
[/i]

If they did, half of Airliners would strike, the other half would cheer through the streets.... :smile:


Seems reasonable to me :spin:


Any idea of where this plane is coming from? Will it be catered/serviced in INDY? Or from DTW/ATL via a repo flight?
 
FlyingElvii
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Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread - 2018

Wed Jan 24, 2018 10:15 pm

Midwestindy wrote:
FlyingElvii wrote:
flyboy80 wrote:
Can we talk Delta Focus City viability here for just a moment? There are so many hub locations within 600 miles of Indy that cover all of Delta's major network comfortably it would seem; why on earth would they be interested in creating a focus city here and what benefit would it have? DTW doesn't seem to be at capacity? At one point I thought a focus city might work if the costs were more efficient and CVG wasn't around, but haven't they been adding to CVG again recently? I'm not sure what ads Delta could make in IND... LAS seems flooded with ULCC and WN. The Florida markets are the same way, but Delta does have a big FF base in FL and IN so maybe thats where we'll see a couple more RJ markets and maybe something from Texas announced?


USAir/Airways tried to hub here.
Northwest tried the "Focus City" thing
ATA tried the "Focus City" thing, and now Delta?

Over the years, there just has not been enough premium traffic to support them long term. The factories are gone now. They may be coming back, but it will take years to build up.


Factories?


Up to the 80's, mid-90's, Indy was a factory town, and that is where the premium traffic came from. GE, GM Truck, Ford, RCA, Chrysler, Harvester are all gone now, and the catchment cities have fared even worse. Without a large, full-fare premium base, these all fail eventually, and are pulled at the first economic downturn.
 
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Midwestindy
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Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread - 2018

Wed Jan 24, 2018 10:29 pm

FlyingElvii wrote:
Midwestindy wrote:
FlyingElvii wrote:

USAir/Airways tried to hub here.
Northwest tried the "Focus City" thing
ATA tried the "Focus City" thing, and now Delta?

Over the years, there just has not been enough premium traffic to support them long term. The factories are gone now. They may be coming back, but it will take years to build up.


Factories?


Up to the 80's, mid-90's, Indy was a factory town, and that is where the premium traffic came from. GE, GM Truck, Ford, RCA, Chrysler, Harvester are all gone now, and the catchment cities have fared even worse. Without a large, full-fare premium base, these all fail eventually, and are pulled at the first economic downturn.


Yeah but that was 30+ years ago, IND is much different now.
If you look at this list of top corporate travel spenders: http://www.businesstravelnews.com/Corpo ... l-100/2017 a lot of companies with large presences in and around IND are on the list
23. Roche 25.FedEx 35.Raytheon 38.UTC 71.Lilly 94.Salesforce, to name a few... so IND hasn't fallen off in terms of corporate traffic, plus most of those factories you are referring to have been replaced by Honda, Toyota, and Subaru factories.

FlyingElvii wrote:
Any idea of where this plane is coming from? Will it be catered/serviced in INDY? Or from DTW/ATL via a repo flight?


Haven't heard about that yet, probably will be ferried in from somewhere
2018: ATL, BOS, CDG, DCA, DFW, DTW, JFK, IND, LAX, LGA, MIA, MSP, ORD, TPA....Loading....
 
Jshank83
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Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread - 2018

Wed Jan 24, 2018 10:34 pm

Midwestindy wrote:
Jshank83 wrote:
Since they gave up on IND-DTW/LGA so maybe they haven't had the best luck going up against DL in IND? Not saying that would stop them from starting MSP but WN doesn't have much of a route network from MSP. They just recently started MSP-BNA so they don't seem to be in a hurry to expand MSP based on not running to some of their bigger stations (HOU,LAX)


IND-DTW/DET on WN was at least 10+ years ago, I don't think it even fits into this discussion. For IND-LGA, WN was up against AA and DL...

WN runs IND-LAX(1x)/ATL(3x)/BOS(2x), all three to DL hubs.

Not to mention, WN has added or announced service from MSP to DAL, OAK, BNA, LAS in the past year...


LAX and ATL are also WN "hubs" though. All those you listed for MSP adds are also big WN operations/connecting points. IND isn't anywhere near the level of OAK/DAL/LAS/BNA on WN. I think they are only going to run MSP to bigger stations or Florida for now.

EDIT: Dallas is only once a week to MSP. LAS-MSP is only running daily in March and then a handful of Saturdays in April/May, then ends in June.
 
Indy
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Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread - 2018

Wed Jan 24, 2018 11:26 pm

FlyingElvii wrote:
USAir/Airways tried to hub here.
Northwest tried the "Focus City" thing
ATA tried the "Focus City" thing, and now Delta?

Over the years, there just has not been enough premium traffic to support them long term. The factories are gone now. They may be coming back, but it will take years to build up.


USAir/Airways had a hub here. They didn't dehub because IND was a bad investment for them. They dehubbed because their strategy at the time was terrible. They had hubs all over the place. Honestly I am not sure what their strategy was supposed to be. They had hubs in MCI, IND, DAY (I mean seriously.. IND and DAY at the same time), PIT, SYR. You can't blame any one city for a hub failure when you have so many of them in the network and relatively close together.

Northwest was doing very well with their focus city. Their bankruptcy and merger with Delta put an end to that.

ATA didn't try the focus city thing and move on. In fact they were building up their hub here when they went bankrupt. It had nothing to do with their IND operation. It had a lot to do with their equipment leases. I know there are people who can shed more light on the subject. I believe they were bleeding big time as well due to their MDW hub.
Indy = Indianapolis and not Independence Air
 
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Midwestindy
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Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread - 2018

Wed Jan 24, 2018 11:59 pm

Jshank83 wrote:
Midwestindy wrote:
Jshank83 wrote:
Since they gave up on IND-DTW/LGA so maybe they haven't had the best luck going up against DL in IND? Not saying that would stop them from starting MSP but WN doesn't have much of a route network from MSP. They just recently started MSP-BNA so they don't seem to be in a hurry to expand MSP based on not running to some of their bigger stations (HOU,LAX)


IND-DTW/DET on WN was at least 10+ years ago, I don't think it even fits into this discussion. For IND-LGA, WN was up against AA and DL...

WN runs IND-LAX(1x)/ATL(3x)/BOS(2x), all three to DL hubs.

Not to mention, WN has added or announced service from MSP to DAL, OAK, BNA, LAS in the past year...


LAX and ATL are also WN "hubs" though. All those you listed for MSP adds are also big WN operations/connecting points. IND isn't anywhere near the level of OAK/DAL/LAS/BNA on WN. I think they are only going to run MSP to bigger stations or Florida for now.

EDIT: Dallas is only once a week to MSP. LAS-MSP is only running daily in March and then a handful of Saturdays in April/May, then ends in June.


I'm aware that they are both hubs, but IND-ATL for example goes up against DL's superhub, and does perfectly fine. WN's IND-LAX is virtually all O&D, and does well against delta.

I don't want this to turn into an MSP service thread, but I simply think that IND-MSP is a possibility, maybe not necessarily in the next schedule extension but it could happen in the future. WN doesn't always serve their largest hubs first before adding anything else, and you can see that across their network (CLE-MKE, MKE-SFO, BOI-GEG, AUS-HRL, CLE-MSY, e.t.c, e.t.c)

Anyways though, looking at possible adds this seems like the order in which routes could come next, in this order:
1. IND-AUS daily, IND-MSY daily, IND-SAN year-round
2. IND-JAX 1x weekly, IND-SAT 1x weekly/daily, IND-BNA 1-2x daily.
3. 1x weekly PBI, 1x daily SMF summer, 1-2x daily STL, 1x weekly ECP
4. 1-2x daily to MSP or PHL
2018: ATL, BOS, CDG, DCA, DFW, DTW, JFK, IND, LAX, LGA, MIA, MSP, ORD, TPA....Loading....
 
ibthebigd
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Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread - 2018

Thu Jan 25, 2018 12:07 am

I wonder if Southwest will start anymore 1x weekly international flights?
 
Indy
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Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread - 2018

Thu Jan 25, 2018 3:17 am

Even without HQ2 in play, IND should hit 10 million passengers served by the end of 2020. That is with a growth rate of approximately 4%. A growth rate of 5% would put it at just shy of 10.2 million. And if we managed 6% we'd hit nearly 10.5 million. I think 6% would be very optimistic but I believe 4% would be doable and more realistic.
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Midwestindy
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Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread - 2018

Thu Jan 25, 2018 3:41 am

Indy wrote:
Even without HQ2 in play, IND should hit 10 million passengers served by the end of 2020. That is with a growth rate of approximately 4%. A growth rate of 5% would put it at just shy of 10.2 million. And if we managed 6% we'd hit nearly 10.5 million. I think 6% would be very optimistic but I believe 4% would be doable and more realistic.


I would be surprised if IND hit 10 million by 2020, but you never know....

I'd much rather see IND get service to some of the target/underserved markets which they outlined in June in their incentives document: https://d1j6zi7czwjuok.cloudfront.net/i ... EBSITE.pdf

Target: BDL, SNA, PDX, SAT, SMF, SJU, PBI, SJC, ONT, and LHR +FRA, SJD, and MBJ
Underserved: FLL, MSY, SAV, SAN, AUS, SLC, RDU, and JAX

all of those additions would be eligible for those new incentives which haven't been used yet...

Maybe the Focus city development incentive could even come into play...
2018: ATL, BOS, CDG, DCA, DFW, DTW, JFK, IND, LAX, LGA, MIA, MSP, ORD, TPA....Loading....
 
Indy
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Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread - 2018

Thu Jan 25, 2018 5:14 am

10 mil by the end of 2020 only takes 4% growth per year. Do you believe that is unrealistic?

I'm curious what predictions everyone has. Based on the Target and Underserved markets, which ones do we score by the end of 2020?

"Target: BDL, SNA, PDX, SAT, SMF, SJU, PBI, SJC, ONT, and LHR +FRA, SJD, and MBJ
Underserved: FLL, MSY, SAV, SAN, AUS, SLC, RDU, and JAX"

From the Target cities I'd pick PDX, SAT, SJU, MBJ, LHR
From Underserved I'd pick FLL, SAN, AUS. Unless more frequencies from the same carrier counts then I'd probably add all to that list except maybe RDU which is already 2x daily.
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flymco753
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Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread - 2018

Thu Jan 25, 2018 6:29 am

SNA in particular would be very hard for IND to come by particularly because they won’t reallocate a perfectly good SNA slot to IND where there are some bigger markets that could use SNA service.
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Midwestindy
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Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread - 2018

Thu Jan 25, 2018 10:18 am

Indy wrote:
10 mil by the end of 2020 only takes 4% growth per year. Do you believe that is unrealistic?

I'm curious what predictions everyone has. Based on the Target and Underserved markets, which ones do we score by the end of 2020?

"Target: BDL, SNA, PDX, SAT, SMF, SJU, PBI, SJC, ONT, and LHR +FRA, SJD, and MBJ
Underserved: FLL, MSY, SAV, SAN, AUS, SLC, RDU, and JAX"

From the Target cities I'd pick PDX, SAT, SJU, MBJ, LHR
From Underserved I'd pick FLL, SAN, AUS. Unless more frequencies from the same carrier counts then I'd probably add all to that list except maybe RDU which is already 2x daily.


How did you get 4% growth to get to 10 million, the total growth would have to at least be 12.29% over the next two years combined.

PDX(AS) and SAT(WN/DL) seem pretty safe by at least 2019. Depending on which carriers make moves though, BDL(DL), LHR/LGW (DY/D8), SMF(WN), and MBJ(G4) could happen.
2018: ATL, BOS, CDG, DCA, DFW, DTW, JFK, IND, LAX, LGA, MIA, MSP, ORD, TPA....Loading....
 
Indy
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Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread - 2018

Thu Jan 25, 2018 1:43 pm

Midwestindy wrote:
How did you get 4% growth to get to 10 million, the total growth would have to at least be 12.29% over the next two years combined.

PDX(AS) and SAT(WN/DL) seem pretty safe by at least 2019. Depending on which carriers make moves though, BDL(DL), LHR/LGW (DY/D8), SMF(WN), and MBJ(G4) could happen.


You are looking at 3 years of growth and not two years. All of 2018, 2019 and 2020. And 12-13% growth over 3 years is very doable.
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beerbus
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Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread - 2018

Thu Jan 25, 2018 6:22 pm

Midwestindy wrote:
Jshank83 wrote:
Since they gave up on IND-DTW/LGA so maybe they haven't had the best luck going up against DL in IND? Not saying that would stop them from starting MSP but WN doesn't have much of a route network from MSP. They just recently started MSP-BNA so they don't seem to be in a hurry to expand MSP based on not running to some of their bigger stations (HOU,LAX)


IND-DTW/DET on WN was at least 10+ years ago, I don't think it even fits into this discussion. For IND-LGA, WN was up against AA and DL...



Yep, I know the IND DTW battle was some time ago. I was in the middle of it.......but the example still applies today.

It fits in the discussion because where DL sees a competitive threat- they take action. NW and subsequently DL have a reputation in the industry for not laying down when someone enters their valuable markets. I stress the word valuable. There are more recent examples- but they didn't involve IND, and I wasn't personally involved in them.

Why no fight on BNAMSP? IMHO it is because, as someone else pointed out on the tread, WN has substantial operations from Nashville, going back many years. I can see WN moving assets into that city pair as a natural expansion of their operations, and traffic base there.

No fight on INDATL? INDATL is a vestage of the FL operations at ATL, so I can see that still operating. It feeds the FL/WN connections in ATL, just as the MSPBNA fits connections in BNA. I just don't see this opportunity from IND for WN to MSP. Or from MSP to IND

While it's fun to speculate on new cities, and I enjoy reading everyone's thoughts, here's where I come from..

My local managers were always telling me "we need to add a flight between x and y". When I was new, I used to think the same way. Thankfully, I kept my mouth shut and didn't lose cred with the route planning folks who only worked on expected revenue/yield. Emotion didn't come into play. (except when a good route was threatened- and then stuff on NW like DENLAX in retaliation for F9's adding DENMSP were added to "send the message")

I learned from the Planning Folks that they proforma'd the fixed cost, and a variable cost of adding a new market. Next, an analysis was done on expected revenue from the market. (some of that came from me)

These get put on Excel, and ranked. (this is admittedly an over simplified outline of the process)

So basically it came down to "of the opportunities out there- which generate the highest return on assets?" And if everything lined up- a new city pair, or additional flight in an existing market would be added.

I never approached the route planners unless I had my ducks lined up.....and even then they'd eat my lunch sometimes because they knew more about costs than me.

Based on this, I see new daily service from someone to AUS in the next 12 months. Not mainline though. Maybe SAT.
.
And if the economy holds up- some weekend N/S service adds to top Florida markets next season. If CDG does well, maybe service on someone to either FRA, or AMS, as both offer good connections. (LHR is slot contained- so I think those slots go to the highest yielding city w/o service.
 
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flymco753
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Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread - 2018

Thu Jan 25, 2018 6:39 pm

Why can't IND-DTW or CHI work on a ULCC though? Don't you think it would be much easier if folks had access to low fares in short distances? I'm not saying that this is viable from an economic standpoint, I'm just thinking, what if short distances are sometimes being under estimated? I like using MCO-FLL/MIA as good examples of markets that are short but people still choose to fly anyway.
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zackary747
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Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread - 2018

Thu Jan 25, 2018 6:56 pm

flymco753 wrote:
Why can't IND-DTW or CHI work on a ULCC though? Don't you think it would be much easier if folks had access to low fares in short distances? I'm not saying that this is viable from an economic standpoint, I'm just thinking, what if short distances are sometimes being under estimated? I like using MCO-FLL/MIA as good examples of markets that are short but people still choose to fly anyway.


I always said if Spirit were to add IND-DTW for the right price, there could be great connecting points as DTW is one of their main cities. Honestly, I can see it working.
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flymco753
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Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread - 2018

Thu Jan 25, 2018 7:01 pm

zackary747 wrote:
flymco753 wrote:
Why can't IND-DTW or CHI work on a ULCC though? Don't you think it would be much easier if folks had access to low fares in short distances? I'm not saying that this is viable from an economic standpoint, I'm just thinking, what if short distances are sometimes being under estimated? I like using MCO-FLL/MIA as good examples of markets that are short but people still choose to fly anyway.


I always said if Spirit were to add IND-DTW for the right price, there could be great connecting points as DTW is one of their main cities. Honestly, I can see it working.
Something for them to consider if they want to start banking flights.
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Midwestindy
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Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread - 2018

Fri Jan 26, 2018 11:26 am

flymco753 wrote:
Why can't IND-DTW or CHI work on a ULCC though? Don't you think it would be much easier if folks had access to low fares in short distances? I'm not saying that this is viable from an economic standpoint, I'm just thinking, what if short distances are sometimes being under estimated? I like using MCO-FLL/MIA as good examples of markets that are short but people still choose to fly anyway.


zackary747 wrote:
flymco753 wrote:
Why can't IND-DTW or CHI work on a ULCC though? Don't you think it would be much easier if folks had access to low fares in short distances? I'm not saying that this is viable from an economic standpoint, I'm just thinking, what if short distances are sometimes being under estimated? I like using MCO-FLL/MIA as good examples of markets that are short but people still choose to fly anyway.


I always said if Spirit were to add IND-DTW for the right price, there could be great connecting points as DTW is one of their main cities. Honestly, I can see it working.


I understand what you are saying, I think IND-DTW/ORD on a ULCC won't work without major connections on either end, which is partially do to the culture of driving the midwest has... The amount of people who drive IND-CHI daily is probably pretty large, but flying will never be an option for most people on this route, regardless of the cost. I fly ORD-IND very often and I'd say 1 out of every 3 to 4 of my flights are delayed meaning it would have been quicker to just drive anyway.

Furthermore, specifically about CHI-IND, fares are already relatively low so an ULCC entering the market wouldn't stimulate that much traffic. For IND-DTW, fares are admittedly high, but even with the stimulation I don't know if there is enough O&D on that route to make it work without connections.

I'd say for ULCCs in the midwest there is usually a radius of around at least a 6-8 hour drive in any direction of the airport, and within that radius flights usually won't be successful unless fed by a lot of connections. I think G4 walks that line really well...

MCO-FLL on NK is a much different type of route, because it goes from MCO(an already large NK operation) to FLL where it feeds an extensive Caribbean and South American network.

beerbus wrote:
So basically it came down to "of the opportunities out there- which generate the highest return on assets?" And if everything lined up- a new city pair, or additional flight in an existing market would be added.

I never approached the route planners unless I had my ducks lined up.....and even then they'd eat my lunch sometimes because they knew more about costs than me.

Based on this, I see new daily service from someone to AUS in the next 12 months. Not mainline though. Maybe SAT.
.
And if the economy holds up- some weekend N/S service adds to top Florida markets next season. If CDG does well, maybe service on someone to either FRA, or AMS, as both offer good connections. (LHR is slot contained- so I think those slots go to the highest yielding city w/o service.


I actually think AUS will go daily, but it will likely be "mainline" on WN or 5x weekly on G4(which is basically daily), I think WN moves AUS to daily before DL has a chance to added RJ service on IND-AUS. IND already has N/S sat service to MIA, RSW, and MCO(daily) on DL....
2018: ATL, BOS, CDG, DCA, DFW, DTW, JFK, IND, LAX, LGA, MIA, MSP, ORD, TPA....Loading....
 
ibthebigd
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Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread - 2018

Fri Jan 26, 2018 3:44 pm

Midwestindy wrote:
flymco753 wrote:
Why can't IND-DTW or CHI work on a ULCC though? Don't you think it would be much easier if folks had access to low fares in short distances? I'm not saying that this is viable from an economic standpoint, I'm just thinking, what if short distances are sometimes being under estimated? I like using MCO-FLL/MIA as good examples of markets that are short but people still choose to fly anyway.


zackary747 wrote:
flymco753 wrote:
Why can't IND-DTW or CHI work on a ULCC though? Don't you think it would be much easier if folks had access to low fares in short distances? I'm not saying that this is viable from an economic standpoint, I'm just thinking, what if short distances are sometimes being under estimated? I like using MCO-FLL/MIA as good examples of markets that are short but people still choose to fly anyway.


I always said if Spirit were to add IND-DTW for the right price, there could be great connecting points as DTW is one of their main cities. Honestly, I can see it working.


I understand what you are saying, I think IND-DTW/ORD on a ULCC won't work without major connections on either end, which is partially do to the culture of driving the midwest has... The amount of people who drive IND-CHI daily is probably pretty large, but flying will never be an option for most people on this route, regardless of the cost. I fly ORD-IND very often and I'd say 1 out of every 3 to 4 of my flights are delayed meaning it would have been quicker to just drive anyway.

Furthermore, specifically about CHI-IND, fares are already relatively low so an ULCC entering the market wouldn't stimulate that much traffic. For IND-DTW, fares are admittedly high, but even with the stimulation I don't know if there is enough O&D on that route to make it work without connections.

I'd say for ULCCs in the midwest there is usually a radius of around at least a 6-8 hour drive in any direction of the airport, and within that radius flights usually won't be successful unless fed by a lot of connections. I think G4 walks that line really well...

MCO-FLL on NK is a much different type of route, because it goes from MCO(an already large NK operation) to FLL where it feeds an extensive Caribbean and South American network.

beerbus wrote:
So basically it came down to "of the opportunities out there- which generate the highest return on assets?" And if everything lined up- a new city pair, or additional flight in an existing market would be added.

I never approached the route planners unless I had my ducks lined up.....and even then they'd eat my lunch sometimes because they knew more about costs than me.

Based on this, I see new daily service from someone to AUS in the next 12 months. Not mainline though. Maybe SAT.
.
And if the economy holds up- some weekend N/S service adds to top Florida markets next season. If CDG does well, maybe service on someone to either FRA, or AMS, as both offer good connections. (LHR is slot contained- so I think those slots go to the highest yielding city w/o service.


I actually think AUS will go daily, but it will likely be "mainline" on WN or 5x weekly on G4(which is basically daily), I think WN moves AUS to daily before DL has a chance to added RJ service on IND-AUS. IND already has N/S sat service to MIA, RSW, and MCO(daily) on DL....
Delta could announce IND-AUS at that rumored February 6th AUS annoucement and bear Southwest to it

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flyPIT
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Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread - 2018

Fri Jan 26, 2018 4:17 pm

FLYi
 
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flymco753
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Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread - 2018

Fri Jan 26, 2018 4:20 pm

Midwestindy wrote:
flymco753 wrote:
Why can't IND-DTW or CHI work on a ULCC though? Don't you think it would be much easier if folks had access to low fares in short distances? I'm not saying that this is viable from an economic standpoint, I'm just thinking, what if short distances are sometimes being under estimated? I like using MCO-FLL/MIA as good examples of markets that are short but people still choose to fly anyway.


zackary747 wrote:
flymco753 wrote:
Why can't IND-DTW or CHI work on a ULCC though? Don't you think it would be much easier if folks had access to low fares in short distances? I'm not saying that this is viable from an economic standpoint, I'm just thinking, what if short distances are sometimes being under estimated? I like using MCO-FLL/MIA as good examples of markets that are short but people still choose to fly anyway.


I always said if Spirit were to add IND-DTW for the right price, there could be great connecting points as DTW is one of their main cities. Honestly, I can see it working.


I understand what you are saying, I think IND-DTW/ORD on a ULCC won't work without major connections on either end, which is partially do to the culture of driving the midwest has... The amount of people who drive IND-CHI daily is probably pretty large, but flying will never be an option for most people on this route, regardless of the cost. I fly ORD-IND very often and I'd say 1 out of every 3 to 4 of my flights are delayed meaning it would have been quicker to just drive anyway.

Furthermore, specifically about CHI-IND, fares are already relatively low so an ULCC entering the market wouldn't stimulate that much traffic. For IND-DTW, fares are admittedly high, but even with the stimulation I don't know if there is enough O&D on that route to make it work without connections.

I'd say for ULCCs in the midwest there is usually a radius of around at least a 6-8 hour drive in any direction of the airport, and within that radius flights usually won't be successful unless fed by a lot of connections. I think G4 walks that line really well...

MCO-FLL on NK is a much different type of route, because it goes from MCO(an already large NK operation) to FLL where it feeds an extensive Caribbean and South American network.
If NK really wanted to start banking flights I'd say IND-DTW is a good possibility. Indianapolis and Detroit are well connected with business, but that doesn't help NK because business travelers want DL.
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Jshank83
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Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread - 2018

Fri Jan 26, 2018 4:22 pm

flyPIT wrote:


Do we think this is the "news" that is rumored or it will be something else?
 
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Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread - 2018

Fri Jan 26, 2018 4:50 pm

Jshank83 wrote:
flyPIT wrote:


Do we think this is the "news" that is rumored or it will be something else?


I can't think of any possible bigger news than this at IND over the next 20-40 years.
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Indy
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Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread - 2018

Fri Jan 26, 2018 5:21 pm

flyPIT wrote:
Jshank83 wrote:
flyPIT wrote:


Do we think this is the "news" that is rumored or it will be something else?


I can't think of any possible bigger news than this at IND over the next 20-40 years.


Yeah this is huge. Adding a 2nd 40 gate terminal wouldn't be this big. This has to be expanding to the maximum possible size and building the new runway finally. I mean what else could they possibly spend that much money on?
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fedex1
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Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread - 2018

Fri Jan 26, 2018 5:56 pm

This is huge news! I heard FEDEX could end up making IND a mega hub!!!
 
Jshank83
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Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread - 2018

Fri Jan 26, 2018 6:04 pm

^Thanks. Some people were giving the impression the announcement wouldn't be fedex so I was wanting to double-check. I agree, this is big news for Indy!
 
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Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread - 2018

Fri Jan 26, 2018 6:06 pm

fedex1 wrote:
This is huge news! I heard FEDEX could end up making IND a mega hub!!!


This new announcement is probably just that. $1.5 billion is 50% more than was spent on the entire IND midfield terminal project. That includes the terminal, control tower, and the huge highway project. I suspect this is maximum expansion possible for FX at IND and this will include the runway and everything. Remember FX already spent money to expand and modernize the existing facility. So this is pretty much all new stuff. There may be some modernization left to do but this is all about huge expansion.
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fedex1
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Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread - 2018

Fri Jan 26, 2018 6:38 pm

I wonder what if Fedex expands to the max possible, would it still be smaller than its MEM super hub !?
 
Indy
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Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread - 2018

Fri Jan 26, 2018 6:43 pm

Honestly, not sure it really matters much. When this 7 year expansion is done, FX at IND will be huge.
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nikeson13
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Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread - 2018

Fri Jan 26, 2018 7:04 pm

I posted in another thread, but it also warrants it here.
It seems like they want to destroy some existing structures at MEM and rebuild them to modern standards, so more of making the hub more efficient and creating more capacity without expanding footprint much.

And $1.5bil for Indy can do a ton of things... Last expansion in 2006 costed $216 million and they got 14 new hardstands and a 30% increase in processing capacity per hour, up to 93,000.
Another example is CGN, which costed €140 million and can process up to 18,000 packages a hour.

Could we possibly see IND expanded for future growth, some volume shifted to IND temporarily to relieve MEM so they could start rebuilding in parts their facility there? 10R/28L at ORD costed $514mil including adjacent taxiways, 10R/28L at FLL $826, 18R/36L at CVG $23.9mil. So possibly another runway could be afforded plus an expansion of a couple dozen hardstands and a new sorting facility. So it could look like:
About $700-800 mil for runway and taxiways (possibly some funding from a federal grant or IND airport?)
$400+ mil for new sorting facility (increase capacity by 30-40%)
The rest for upgrades, new stands, and new equipment.

Thoughts?
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Indy
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Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread - 2018

Fri Jan 26, 2018 7:36 pm

A new runway in IND is going to be cheap by ORD standards. There is nothing that needs to be reworked to accommodate the new runway. They already have the land set aside. There might be a few small things that need to be removed, but nothing that will drive up the cost. If I had a guess I would say that it would cost half (or less) than what it cost for the ORD runway. It is so much cheaper to do when you have a blank canvas to work with.
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fedex1
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Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread - 2018

Fri Jan 26, 2018 8:14 pm

So just a runway over the interstate ? Isn’t there a bunch of land south of I70?!? That the airport owns? All of that land for the runway? Anyone have drawings for that?
 
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cvgComair
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Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread - 2018

Fri Jan 26, 2018 8:19 pm

CVG’s runway was $250 million, I would image a new one at IND would be roughly the same cost.
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fedex1
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Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread - 2018

Fri Jan 26, 2018 8:55 pm

So just a runway over the interstate ? Isn’t there a bunch of land south of I70?!? That the airport owns? All of that land for the runway? Anyone have drawings for that?
 
jplatts
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Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread - 2018

Fri Jan 26, 2018 9:16 pm

fedex1 wrote:
So just a runway over the interstate ? Isn’t there a bunch of land south of I70?!? That the airport owns? All of that land for the runway? Anyone have drawings for that?


I remember seeing a diagram on the Internet that shows plans for a new taxiway bridge over I-70 at IND along with a new runway south of I-70 at IND.
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