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Midwestindy
Posts: 1949
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Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread - 2018

Fri Jan 26, 2018 9:46 pm

Jshank83 wrote:
^Thanks. Some people were giving the impression the announcement wouldn't be fedex so I was wanting to double-check. I agree, this is big news for Indy!


I’m going to look into this later tonight if I️ get the chance, but if not I️’ll post something on Saturday.

I️ know this may sound surprising, but considering this announcement came from FedEx and not the city, and the fact that the city wasn’t asked to make a deal leads me to believe, that this isn’t the announcement he was referring to. Furthermore, someone correct if I️ am wrong but at the time of the interview the details of the tax deal weren’t even finalized...
2018: ATL, BOS, CDG, DCA, DFW, DTW, JFK, IND, LAX, LGA, MIA, MSP, ORD, TPA....Loading....
 
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flyPIT
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Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread - 2018

Fri Jan 26, 2018 10:10 pm

fedex1 wrote:
So just a runway over the interstate ? Isn’t there a bunch of land south of I70?!? That the airport owns? All of that land for the runway? Anyone have drawings for that?


You can zoom in on page 7 to get an idea:
http://www.aerotropolis.com/files/2011_GAC_CreatingAnAerotropolis.pdf

There's enough room on the south side of I-70 for not only the runway and taxiways but also to mirror the existing ramp on the north side. I would think that will be part of the plan.
FLYi
 
Indy
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Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread - 2018

Sat Jan 27, 2018 12:42 am

Well everyone, I am off for vacation. I will be flying out of IND tomorrow at 10:00am (Delta) and will be flying back on Feb 5th. Hopefully I don't miss anything too exciting IND related.
Indy = Indianapolis and not Independence Air
 
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piedmontf284000
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Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread - 2018

Sat Jan 27, 2018 1:43 am

fedex1 wrote:
This is huge news! I heard FEDEX could end up making IND a mega hub!!!


With IND already FedEx's second largest hub, I think that this amount of $$$ will make it on par with Memphis. This is a substantial amount of investment in IND. A new runway, taxiways, sorting facilities, offices, road access, and parking lots should all be part of this investment. The best part is that IAA doesn't have to spend a nickle of their own money and can allocate other funds to passenger facilities. While I don't see Indy getting HQ2, I think this is a very nice consolation prize. A great investment by a Fortune 500 company.
 
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Midwestindy
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Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread - 2018

Sat Jan 27, 2018 3:47 pm

FedEx is great news for the airport, especially because at least for now no incentives are involved, 1.5 billion is not a number to be taken lightly, and it probably means that IND will soon be approaching MEM in terms of cargo in the coming years. It's important that IND has a large tenant like FedEx bringing in added revenue!

A few notes for the the IND-CDG flight:
DL: I wouldn't be surprised if DL subs in at least the 764 for the 763 on race weekend, there simply aren't enough J class seats on the 763 for all the sponsors, fans, media, e.t.c who come from Europe and beyond not to mention those people who are traveling out of IND at the same time. We are over 4 months away and they have already had to up the J class seating on the inaugural, and I'm already seeing some flights were J class is already sold out or close to it...

WN: Looks like WN's MSY-IND starts a month earlier this year (February instead of March). Hopefully this flight goes daily during the schedule extension

F9: I feel like the IND-LAS flight must be doing well if they have increased it to 2x-4x weekly, but then again I don't want to put much stock in anything that F9 does...

Indy 500 schedule changes: AA Added in a few extra IND-PHXs and PHX-IND flights, DL added in an extra IND-LGA flight, replaced a CR9 on IND-MSP with a MD90, and added in a 757 on IND-ATL. Probably more to come over the next few weeks
2018: ATL, BOS, CDG, DCA, DFW, DTW, JFK, IND, LAX, LGA, MIA, MSP, ORD, TPA....Loading....
 
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SumChristianus
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Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread - 2018

Sat Jan 27, 2018 4:22 pm

Midwestindy wrote:
FedEx is great news for the airport, especially because at least for now no incentives are involved, 1.5 billion is not a number to be taken lightly, and it probably means that IND will soon be approaching MEM in terms of cargo in the coming years. It's important that IND has a large tenant like FedEx bringing in added revenue!

A few notes for the the IND-CDG flight:
DL: I wouldn't be surprised if DL subs in at least the 764 for the 763 on race weekend, there simply aren't enough J class seats on the 763 for all the sponsors, fans, media, e.t.c who come from Europe and beyond not to mention those people who are traveling out of IND at the same time. We are over 4 months away and they have already had to up the J class seating on the inaugural, and I'm already seeing some flights were J class is already sold out or close to it...

WN: Looks like WN's MSY-IND starts a month earlier this year (February instead of March). Hopefully this flight goes daily during the schedule extension

F9: I feel like the IND-LAS flight must be doing well if they have increased it to 2x-4x weekly, but then again I don't want to put much stock in anything that F9 does...

Indy 500 schedule changes: AA Added in a few extra IND-PHXs and PHX-IND flights, DL added in an extra IND-LGA flight, replaced a CR9 on IND-MSP with a MD90, and added in a 757 on IND-ATL. Probably more to come over the next few weeks


It sounds like IND-CDG is doing very well in advance bookings then. Do you think they are just dropping their yields though to gain volume and higher subsidies, though? Its pricing at a miimum of $1172 round trip right now which is less than DL's equivalent fares out of CVG and DTW but higher than DL/AF at ORD.
DL seems to be selling MSP-IND-CDG, DTW-IND-CDG, and LGA-IND-CDG, sometimes for less than their equlvalent nonstop, seemingly boosting this possibility.
If its true IND demand for this flight, how about an A333 for the 2019 race weekend, then?
I just wonder what would make someone choose IND-CDG-FRA, IND-CDG-FCO, etc over a connection through DTW, JFK, BOS, PHL, etc. I know better connections are offered to secondary European destinations like Split, Colonge-Bonn, Nuremberg, etc., but for major destinations I don't readily see the IND-CDG value proposition? Any thoughts? Is CDG that much better of a connecting airport?
 
beerbus
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Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread - 2018

Sat Jan 27, 2018 5:05 pm

There is a dip on I 70, just west of the Fedex sorting facility/ramp. A taxiway bridge will be built at that depression in elevation across the highway, connecting to a new runway on the s. side of I 70. The service road on the n side of 70 also makes the same depression. You can see where the elevation adjacent to the dip on the service road is already staged for the future connecting taxiway.

Its a perfect setup for the FE operation.
 
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Midwestindy
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Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread - 2018

Sat Jan 27, 2018 5:07 pm

SumChristianus wrote:
Midwestindy wrote:
FedEx is great news for the airport, especially because at least for now no incentives are involved, 1.5 billion is not a number to be taken lightly, and it probably means that IND will soon be approaching MEM in terms of cargo in the coming years. It's important that IND has a large tenant like FedEx bringing in added revenue!

A few notes for the the IND-CDG flight:
DL: I wouldn't be surprised if DL subs in at least the 764 for the 763 on race weekend, there simply aren't enough J class seats on the 763 for all the sponsors, fans, media, e.t.c who come from Europe and beyond not to mention those people who are traveling out of IND at the same time. We are over 4 months away and they have already had to up the J class seating on the inaugural, and I'm already seeing some flights were J class is already sold out or close to it...

WN: Looks like WN's MSY-IND starts a month earlier this year (February instead of March). Hopefully this flight goes daily during the schedule extension

F9: I feel like the IND-LAS flight must be doing well if they have increased it to 2x-4x weekly, but then again I don't want to put much stock in anything that F9 does...

Indy 500 schedule changes: AA Added in a few extra IND-PHXs and PHX-IND flights, DL added in an extra IND-LGA flight, replaced a CR9 on IND-MSP with a MD90, and added in a 757 on IND-ATL. Probably more to come over the next few weeks


It sounds like IND-CDG is doing very well in advance bookings then. Do you think they are just dropping their yields though to gain volume and higher subsidies, though? Its pricing at a miimum of $1172 round trip right now which is less than DL's equivalent fares out of CVG and DTW but higher than DL/AF at ORD.
DL seems to be selling MSP-IND-CDG, DTW-IND-CDG, and LGA-IND-CDG, sometimes for less than their equlvalent nonstop, seemingly boosting this possibility.
If its true IND demand for this flight, how about an A333 for the 2019 race weekend, then?
I just wonder what would make someone choose IND-CDG-FRA, IND-CDG-FCO, etc over a connection through DTW, JFK, BOS, PHL, etc. I know better connections are offered to secondary European destinations like Split, Colonge-Bonn, Nuremberg, etc., but for major destinations I don't readily see the IND-CDG value proposition? Any thoughts? Is CDG that much better of a connecting airport?


DL physically isn't allowing connections on this flight, if you go on Delta.com it won't let you book DTW-IND-CDG, even if you try to book it using Multi-city. So, for now this flight is all O&D for now, I don't know the timeline of when DL is making connections available.

I haven't been following prices closely, but they have been fluctuating a lot, I remember when flights first went on sale people were up in arms because prices were so high compared to CVG/RDU/DTW/e.t.c, so that may be something to watch. If they are trying to gain volume by lowering fares though, I think that would make it more likely that upguaging would occur.

We'll see what the numbers are for the 500 this year, but at least the 764 or A332 seem like they would be better candidates than a low-J 763

Personally, I'd rather fly IND-DTW-AMS/MUC/e.t.c than to fly IND-CDG-AMS/MUC/e.t.c...CDG is not that great of an airport to connect at, but I will probably fly IND-CDG to support the new n/s... Plus PHL, BOS, DTW, e.t.c don't offer many African/Middle East/Eastern European flights, so there CDG has an advantage
2018: ATL, BOS, CDG, DCA, DFW, DTW, JFK, IND, LAX, LGA, MIA, MSP, ORD, TPA....Loading....
 
fedex1
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Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread - 2018

Sun Jan 28, 2018 7:07 pm

So IND. is all the sudden booming, why????
 
COSPN
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Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread - 2018

Sun Jan 28, 2018 8:23 pm

IND has the room MEM is maxed out ...
 
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Midwestindy
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Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread - 2018

Sun Jan 28, 2018 9:15 pm

fedex1 wrote:
So IND. is all the sudden booming, why????


In terms of cargo or pax?
2018: ATL, BOS, CDG, DCA, DFW, DTW, JFK, IND, LAX, LGA, MIA, MSP, ORD, TPA....Loading....
 
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SumChristianus
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Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread - 2018

Sun Jan 28, 2018 9:49 pm

UA added mainline back to IND-ORD in April, a midmorning turn on an A319.
IAH-IND s at 4x daily (~3x E70/75, 1x ERJ) for much of the summer, losing the A320 that currently overnights in IND.
Interesting to see the long-term restructuring of UA's network over the long term from IND as 2x daily SFO began and mainline services increased. IAH was 6x daily at one point with an A319, ORD was 12x daily, and CLE was around 4-5x daily (I believe). With upgauging ORD has moved to 9x daily, CLE was dropped, IAH moved to 4x daily (capacity shift to DEN), and IAD was upgauged completely to two-class regional jets.

With UA's stated plan to grow domestically 4-6% a year, I think we'll eventually see
ORD at 7x daily (1x 73H, 2x 319, 4x E75)
DEN at 3x daily (1x 73H, 1x 319, 1x CR7)
IAH at 4x daily (1x 319, 3x E75)
EWR at 4x daily (2x 319, 2x E70)
IAD at 4x (2x E70, 2x E75)
SFO at 12x week (12x week A319)
LAX at 1x week (1x 319)
 
fedex1
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Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread - 2018

Sun Jan 28, 2018 11:15 pm

In terms of cargo or pax?[/quote]

In terms of everything in general...
 
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Midwestindy
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Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread - 2018

Mon Jan 29, 2018 12:39 am

SumChristianus wrote:
UA added mainline back to IND-ORD in April, a midmorning turn on an A319.
IAH-IND s at 4x daily (~3x E70/75, 1x ERJ) for much of the summer, losing the A320 that currently overnights in IND.
Interesting to see the long-term restructuring of UA's network over the long term from IND as 2x daily SFO began and mainline services increased. IAH was 6x daily at one point with an A319, ORD was 12x daily, and CLE was around 4-5x daily (I believe). With upgauging ORD has moved to 9x daily, CLE was dropped, IAH moved to 4x daily (capacity shift to DEN), and IAD was upgauged completely to two-class regional jets.

With UA's stated plan to grow domestically 4-6% a year, I think we'll eventually see
ORD at 7x daily (1x 73H, 2x 319, 4x E75)
DEN at 3x daily (1x 73H, 1x 319, 1x CR7)
IAH at 4x daily (1x 319, 3x E75)
EWR at 4x daily (2x 319, 2x E70)
IAD at 4x (2x E70, 2x E75)
SFO at 12x week (12x week A319)
LAX at 1x week (1x 319)


IND-IAH has been only mainline during winter since at least last year, but I'd be pretty surprised if IND-EWR went all the down to 4x daily, even with upguaging. For IND-EWR frequency is more important than mainline, so to dip below at least 5x daily year-round would be risky. That being said I could see 6x daily (1x 319, 3xE70, 2xCR7) on IND-EWR.

UA should be interesting to watch, with all of their talk of growth...

fedex1 wrote:
So IND. is all the sudden booming, why????


I don't know if it is "booming" per say, but there has definitely been a noticeable increase in flights in general. Destinations and nonstops served are much much better from what they were a couple years ago, and now 57% of people flying out of IND are flying nonstop which is higher than RDU and comparable with AUS.

One reason there has been an increase in service is partially due to the fact that, until the past couple of years IND was underserved. Since 2015 or so, you have seen a lot of those holes filled in, especially by WN and G4. IND is also a good space for G4 to flourish, because IND isn't a large station for SY/F9/NK so there isn't too much competition on the ULCC front. DL has also turned a bit of its focus towards increasing its market share in its non-hub stations, so that has led to some increased service to SLC, SEA, JFK, CDG, MCO, and MSP as of late. West coast growth isn't that surprising though, considering so many of IND's businesses are tied to the west coast...

IND can thank MEM as well for the increase in cargo.
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ncflyer
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Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread - 2018

Mon Jan 29, 2018 2:18 am

IMHO CDG is the worst connecting airport in Europe. Nothing is a close second. The Air France security lines are chaotic if you catch them at the wrong times, and the tarmac ground vehicle traffic—- wow I’ve never seen such seeming chaos looking out the airport windows. I’ll never forget checking in to a hotel in Prague, DL/Czech having lost my bag in spite of a two and a half hour layover. When the hotel clerk saw that I didn’t have a bag she asked if I changed planes in CDG. She said it happens all the time to her guests coming from Paris.

Saying that if I lived in Indy I’d still support the Paris flight going anywhere on the continent. Gotta keep it going.
 
fedex1
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Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread - 2018

Mon Jan 29, 2018 5:22 pm

Why is United adding mainline back into IND??
 
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SumChristianus
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Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread - 2018

Mon Jan 29, 2018 5:48 pm

fedex1 wrote:
Why is United adding mainline back into IND??


Mainline IND-ORD had appeared to end, but is restarting in April. The addition of SFO (the second daily flight) reduced UA's traffic flows through ORD, hence the dropping of mainline during the slow-season. I think SFO dropped back to 1x daily though, too, so this may not be the reason ORD was reduced, now that I think about it more.
UA just isn't big at IND, or at much of the Midwest compared to DL, AA, and WN.
 
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Midwestindy
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Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread - 2018

Tue Jan 30, 2018 1:01 am

ncflyer wrote:
IMHO CDG is the worst connecting airport in Europe. Nothing is a close second. The Air France security lines are chaotic if you catch them at the wrong times, and the tarmac ground vehicle traffic—- wow I’ve never seen such seeming chaos looking out the airport windows. I’ll never forget checking in to a hotel in Prague, DL/Czech having lost my bag in spite of a two and a half hour layover. When the hotel clerk saw that I didn’t have a bag she asked if I changed planes in CDG. She said it happens all the time to her guests coming from Paris.

Saying that if I lived in Indy I’d still support the Paris flight going anywhere on the continent. Gotta keep it going.


Agreed if you are a DL FF, AMS is much more preferable...

SumChristianus wrote:
fedex1 wrote:
Why is United adding mainline back into IND??


Mainline IND-ORD had appeared to end, but is restarting in April. The addition of SFO (the second daily flight) reduced UA's traffic flows through ORD, hence the dropping of mainline during the slow-season. I think SFO dropped back to 1x daily though, too, so this may not be the reason ORD was reduced, now that I think about it more.
UA just isn't big at IND, or at much of the Midwest compared to DL, AA, and WN.


IND-ORD is going from 4x E170, 4xCR2, 1xE145 to -->6xE170, 2xCR2, 1xA319, which is a pretty nice increase, considering last April IND-ORD only had 4 total mainline departures.

IND-SFO goes back 2x daily (1xA319, 1xA320) in March

UA is about 1/2 the size of both AA and DL at IND, but I think they are trying to change that through their network wide capacity increase
2018: ATL, BOS, CDG, DCA, DFW, DTW, JFK, IND, LAX, LGA, MIA, MSP, ORD, TPA....Loading....
 
fedex1
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Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread - 2018

Tue Jan 30, 2018 1:42 am

So I obviously know NOTHING, but why do I feel like IND has been left blank since the NWA days, and the ATA days, until NOW? Are they just now adjusting to the proper market size? Or we going to loose a bunch of routes again? I mean 2 years ago what LAS was about as far west as we went? Now LAX, SFO, SEA, SAN, PHX, LAS, SLC, gesh. Please correct me as I am certain I am wrong and educate me!
Also, the only reason the transatlantic flight happened was because of the incentives package correct?? Just trying to figure this out .
 
fedex1
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Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread - 2018

Tue Jan 30, 2018 2:05 am

Another, thing. . . Why would Delta start IND-CDG, instead of IND-AMS. . . Reading above and seeing DL FF would much rather connect in AMS. Doesn’t DL have a rather large following in IND?
 
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Midwestindy
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Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread - 2018

Tue Jan 30, 2018 2:39 am

fedex1 wrote:
So I obviously know NOTHING, but why do I feel like IND has been left blank since the NWA days, and the ATA days, until NOW? Are they just now adjusting to the proper market size? Or we going to loose a bunch of routes again? I mean 2 years ago what LAS was about as far west as we went? Now LAX, SFO, SEA, SAN, PHX, LAS, SLC, gesh. Please correct me as I am certain I am wrong and educate me!
Also, the only reason the transatlantic flight happened was because of the incentives package correct?? Just trying to figure this out .


Well growth in demand was relatively stagnant for many years, but within the past couple of years growth to SFO, SEA, SAN, AUS, e.t.c has skyrocketed which has allowed some of the more "marginal" routes to become viable. 2 years ago the demand probably wasn't there for SAN/SEA/2x SFO, but that has since changed.

With regards to the TATL flight, yes, the flight would not have happened without an incentives package.

fedex1 wrote:
Another, thing. . . Why would Delta start IND-CDG, instead of IND-AMS. . . Reading above and seeing DL FF would much rather connect in AMS. Doesn’t DL have a rather large following in IND?


GE aviation is sending cargo on the flight to Paris, from the way it sounds it was going to originally be IND-AMS, but the $$ DL could get from cargo probably influenced them to fly IND-CDG instead....
2018: ATL, BOS, CDG, DCA, DFW, DTW, JFK, IND, LAX, LGA, MIA, MSP, ORD, TPA....Loading....
 
fedex1
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Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread - 2018

Tue Jan 30, 2018 3:44 am

So would IND get AMS service or no not for many years to come? Without killing off CDG service...
 
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Midwestindy
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Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread - 2018

Tue Jan 30, 2018 11:04 pm

fedex1 wrote:
So would IND get AMS service or no not for many years to come? Without killing off CDG service...


I doubt AMS is on the radar for the airport, FRA, LGW, KEF, and maybe DUB are probably the next likely european destinations IMO
2018: ATL, BOS, CDG, DCA, DFW, DTW, JFK, IND, LAX, LGA, MIA, MSP, ORD, TPA....Loading....
 
zackary747
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Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread - 2018

Wed Jan 31, 2018 12:41 am

Midwestindy wrote:
fedex1 wrote:
So would IND get AMS service or no not for many years to come? Without killing off CDG service...


I doubt AMS is on the radar for the airport, FRA, LGW, KEF, and maybe DUB are probably the next likely european destinations IMO


There is a pattern. AUS gets LHR. They got their second TATL 3 years later.
PIT got their CDG flight. They get 2 more TATL in a 2-3 year time span.

According to the pattern I am seeing, I think FRA or KEF would be the best next two possibilities.

FRA would probably be Condor
LGW could be Norwegian (Wait until how AUS-LGW does before ruling a mid size city expansion, AUS is clearly the guinea pig for LGW.)
KEF would be WOW or Icelandair. (PIT was the guinea pig, then they made expansion to CVG, CLE, etc. I saw that coming but nobody believed me.) I think WOW and Icelandair are going to target medium sized markets even more than we've seen in the future.

DUB is a stretch as no other medium size market has this service yet (I am NOT counting those small cities on the east coast SWF, PVD, etc.), but it could come within the future. I just see no proof as of yet but I would never completely rule it out.

To fedex1,

if you look at the market there is more competition since pre-9/11 days. (It took a LONG time for the industry to rebound and grow due to 9/11. The 2008 recession didn't help either). The customer has THREE options now. Legacy, LCC, and ULCC (ULCC didn't even exist 10 years ago). That creates competition and an incentive for airlines to diversify their networks. Hince why airports (medium sized markets) like IND, RDU, MCI, AUS, PIT, etc. are experiencing growth. If you have a Skype i'd love to chat with you and kind of explain my insight in further detail.
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ibthebigd
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Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread - 2018

Wed Jan 31, 2018 12:47 am

Be nice to get a NRT flight but it's to far

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk
 
zackary747
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Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread - 2018

Wed Jan 31, 2018 1:08 am

ibthebigd wrote:
Be nice to get a NRT flight but it's to far

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


If we can get the LCC competition on TPAC like there is on TATL, then I truly think the way TPAC flights are done would become different.

Assuming the economy doesn't crash in a major way, I can see it happening one of these days. BUT the TATL market still has to mature and grow first.
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Midwestindy
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Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread - 2018

Wed Jan 31, 2018 2:00 am

Before I get into anything, it looks like IND-PUJ is doing well, I was looking at SB flights to the carribean and March 26th and April 2nd are sold out, so that is good news. Anyways....
ibthebigd wrote:
Be nice to get a NRT flight but it's to far

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


zackary747 wrote:
ibthebigd wrote:
Be nice to get a NRT flight but it's to far

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


If we can get the LCC competition on TPAC like there is on TATL, then I truly think the way TPAC flights are done would become different.

Assuming the economy doesn't crash in a major way, I can see it happening one of these days. BUT the TATL market still has to mature and grow first.


I'll give it 5-8 years, I think that is pretty safe. I have discussed it before but the IND area fares really well compared to its peers in terms of Japan-US ties:
Toyota Industries NA HQ, SMC corp America HQ, Eli Lilly, Cummins, Sony, Toyota/Honda/Subaru Mfg, Aisin America HQ, e.t.c, e.t.c
I think the IEDC updated the list this year to 283 Japanese companies operating in Indiana

The problem IND, CVG, BNA, CLE, and the like have is that they are too close to ORD, DTW, and ATL. I'm sure the airports I have listed provide a significant amount of feed for ORD, DTW, and ATL, so I'm sure airlines aren't going to be chomping at the bit to redirect some of that high yielding connecting flow to add an expensive long-haul route in an unproven market. (and yes I know the same thing was said about TATL traffic, but TPAC service is fundamentally different)

I don't know how well a LCC would work considering so much of the Midwest-Asia demand is business oriented, and lacking in VFR and tourism.
2018: ATL, BOS, CDG, DCA, DFW, DTW, JFK, IND, LAX, LGA, MIA, MSP, ORD, TPA....Loading....
 
ADrum23
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Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread - 2018

Wed Jan 31, 2018 3:07 am

Midwestindy wrote:
Before I get into anything, it looks like IND-PUJ is doing well, I was looking at SB flights to the carribean and March 26th and April 2nd are sold out, so that is good news. Anyways....
ibthebigd wrote:
Be nice to get a NRT flight but it's to far

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


zackary747 wrote:
ibthebigd wrote:
Be nice to get a NRT flight but it's to far

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


If we can get the LCC competition on TPAC like there is on TATL, then I truly think the way TPAC flights are done would become different.

Assuming the economy doesn't crash in a major way, I can see it happening one of these days. BUT the TATL market still has to mature and grow first.


I'll give it 5-8 years, I think that is pretty safe. I have discussed it before but the IND area fares really well compared to its peers in terms of Japan-US ties:
Toyota Industries NA HQ, SMC corp America HQ, Eli Lilly, Cummins, Sony, Toyota/Honda/Subaru Mfg, Aisin America HQ, e.t.c, e.t.c
I think the IEDC updated the list this year to 283 Japanese companies operating in Indiana

The problem IND, CVG, BNA, CLE, and the like have is that they are too close to ORD, DTW, and ATL. I'm sure the airports I have listed provide a significant amount of feed for ORD, DTW, and ATL, so I'm sure airlines aren't going to be chomping at the bit to redirect some of that high yielding connecting flow to add an expensive long-haul route in an unproven market. (and yes I know the same thing was said about TATL traffic, but TPAC service is fundamentally different)

I don't know how well a LCC would work considering so much of the Midwest-Asia demand is business oriented, and lacking in VFR and tourism.


I think the main problem is there really isn't a lot of precedent for a TPAC flight from a mid-sized market (outside of the west coast). Do you know what the smallest market is in the US that has a TPAC flight to East Asia?

I do think a less than daily 788 (to begin with) could work from the likes of IND, BNA, AUS, RDU, etc (with incentives, of course). And with JL recently saying they want to expand internationally further, that is encouraging. Nonetheless, I still expect it will be sometime in the 2020's before we start hearing any serious conversation in any of these markets.
 
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Midwestindy
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Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread - 2018

Wed Jan 31, 2018 4:03 am

ADrum23 wrote:
Midwestindy wrote:
Before I get into anything, it looks like IND-PUJ is doing well, I was looking at SB flights to the carribean and March 26th and April 2nd are sold out, so that is good news. Anyways....
ibthebigd wrote:
Be nice to get a NRT flight but it's to far

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


zackary747 wrote:

If we can get the LCC competition on TPAC like there is on TATL, then I truly think the way TPAC flights are done would become different.

Assuming the economy doesn't crash in a major way, I can see it happening one of these days. BUT the TATL market still has to mature and grow first.


I'll give it 5-8 years, I think that is pretty safe. I have discussed it before but the IND area fares really well compared to its peers in terms of Japan-US ties:
Toyota Industries NA HQ, SMC corp America HQ, Eli Lilly, Cummins, Sony, Toyota/Honda/Subaru Mfg, Aisin America HQ, e.t.c, e.t.c
I think the IEDC updated the list this year to 283 Japanese companies operating in Indiana

The problem IND, CVG, BNA, CLE, and the like have is that they are too close to ORD, DTW, and ATL. I'm sure the airports I have listed provide a significant amount of feed for ORD, DTW, and ATL, so I'm sure airlines aren't going to be chomping at the bit to redirect some of that high yielding connecting flow to add an expensive long-haul route in an unproven market. (and yes I know the same thing was said about TATL traffic, but TPAC service is fundamentally different)

I don't know how well a LCC would work considering so much of the Midwest-Asia demand is business oriented, and lacking in VFR and tourism.


I think the main problem is there really isn't a lot of precedent for a TPAC flight from a mid-sized market (outside of the west coast). Do you know what the smallest market is in the US that has a TPAC flight to East Asia?

I do think a less than daily 788 (to begin with) could work from the likes of IND, BNA, AUS, RDU, etc (with incentives, of course). And with JL recently saying they want to expand internationally further, that is encouraging. Nonetheless, I still expect it will be sometime in the 2020's before we start hearing any serious conversation in any of these markets.


If you don't include LAX in ONT, I think ONT is probably one of the smallest TPAC markets, probably PDX as well. I feel like I am missing some....

We will see though, I agree any new service would probably be 3-4x weekly...
2018: ATL, BOS, CDG, DCA, DFW, DTW, JFK, IND, LAX, LGA, MIA, MSP, ORD, TPA....Loading....
 
BerenErchamion
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Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread - 2018

Wed Jan 31, 2018 6:02 am

ADrum23 wrote:
I think the main problem is there really isn't a lot of precedent for a TPAC flight from a mid-sized market (outside of the west coast). Do you know what the smallest market is in the US that has a TPAC flight to East Asia?


Portland has service to Tokyo; its metropolitan area is almost exactly the same size as Indianapolis's.
Last edited by BerenErchamion on Wed Jan 31, 2018 6:08 am, edited 1 time in total.
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BerenErchamion
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Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread - 2018

Wed Jan 31, 2018 6:07 am

Midwestindy wrote:
If you don't include LAX in ONT, I think ONT is probably one of the smallest TPAC markets, probably PDX as well. I feel like I am missing some....


The city of Ontario is one thing, but the entire Inland Empire has roughly 2x the population of the Indy or Portland metro areas. Though the presence of LAX complicates that. Also worth noting: the per-capita GDP of the Inland Empire is less than half that of Indianapolis or Portland.
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BerenErchamion
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Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread - 2018

Wed Jan 31, 2018 6:13 am

Also worth noting: Las Vegas (another metro area relatively close in size to Indy) has service to Beijing and Seoul, though obviously it's a special case.
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Midwestindy
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Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread - 2018

Wed Jan 31, 2018 4:04 pm

BerenErchamion wrote:
ADrum23 wrote:
I think the main problem is there really isn't a lot of precedent for a TPAC flight from a mid-sized market (outside of the west coast). Do you know what the smallest market is in the US that has a TPAC flight to East Asia?


Portland has service to Tokyo; its metropolitan area is almost exactly the same size as Indianapolis's.


Much larger Asian population though, and probably stronger business ties as well...
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SumChristianus
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Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread - 2018

Wed Jan 31, 2018 5:37 pm

I've been working through some DB1B tables and have created a rudimentary table for IND connections. Interestingly TPA-MDW seems the largest connecting market through IND (7 PDEW) while EWR-ATL, ATL-BOS, BOS-MDW, DEN-RSW, and HOU-MDW all show up highly as connecting markets.
https://drive.google.com/open?id=1-XVJJ--GDzpc9SWu277pWYa_4U-V5cmI

For DL, their largest market after ATL on IND-ATL flights is IND-TPA (27 PDEW) , MCO, FLL, MSY, and RSW also showing up highly.
At that rate I think they'll restart at least a weekend CR7 to TPA.
RDU sees about 10 PDEW through ATL from IND, in addition to the nonstop IND-RDU passengers. A third daily flight could eventually be a possibility.
Just for kicks, with the CVG upgauges for DL and their growth in the general area, how about 3x daily CRJ IND-CVG? Highly unlikely, but maybe only a little more outrageous than AAs 6x daily ER4s PHL-JFK?
 
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Midwestindy
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Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread - 2018

Thu Feb 01, 2018 12:46 am

SumChristianus wrote:
I've been working through some DB1B tables and have created a rudimentary table for IND connections. Interestingly TPA-MDW seems the largest connecting market through IND (7 PDEW) while EWR-ATL, ATL-BOS, BOS-MDW, DEN-RSW, and HOU-MDW all show up highly as connecting markets.
https://drive.google.com/open?id=1-XVJJ--GDzpc9SWu277pWYa_4U-V5cmI

For DL, their largest market after ATL on IND-ATL flights is IND-TPA (27 PDEW) , MCO, FLL, MSY, and RSW also showing up highly.
At that rate I think they'll restart at least a weekend CR7 to TPA.
RDU sees about 10 PDEW through ATL from IND, in addition to the nonstop IND-RDU passengers. A third daily flight could eventually be a possibility.
Just for kicks, with the CVG upgauges for DL and their growth in the general area, how about 3x daily CRJ IND-CVG? Highly unlikely, but maybe only a little more outrageous than AAs 6x daily ER4s PHL-JFK?


Interesting, I pulled some other routes for DL only pax:
*indicates already served city pair by DL
IND-TPA Q1: 34 PDEW, Q2: IND-TPA 29 PDEW
IND-FLL Q1: 37 PDEW, Q2: IND-FLL 41 PDEW
*IND-MIA Q1: 31 PDEW, Q2 IND-MIA 24 PDEW
*IND-RSW Q1: 31 PDEW, Q2: IND-RSW 35 PDEW
*IND-MCO Q1: 83 PDEW, Q2: IND-MCO 94 PDEW

Considering they serve IND-RSW/MIA sat-only, IND-TPA/FLL sat only wouldn't shock for spring/early summer next year

Comparing IND-AUS to CVG-AUS, I think there is a good chance that since DL is starting CVG-AUS, DL could try IND-AUS. It is a larger and faster growing market than CVG-AUS, IND-AUS has an has an equal amount DL PDEW as CVG-AUS does, and there is slightly less competition on IND-AUS.

I think IND-RDU is fine how it is (2x daily), especially since the CR2s have been phased off of that route
----
Looking at Q3
IND-SEA: AS captured about 116 PDEW, DL captured 42 PDEW, WN captured 45 PDEW, so it will be interesting to see how these numbers shift this summer
----
Any news on F9s move to Concourse A, it was supposed to happen before the end of January and I was flying out today and I still saw a F9 plane parked at B15....
----
The French Consul General was at IND today meeting with DL and the air service development team at the airport....I wonder what was discussed.... https://twitter.com/GJ_Lacroix/status/9 ... 6005875719
----
Lastly, I peaked over at the G4 pilot forum, the IND base opens soon (sometime in the next week), but the rumor is they are planning to grow it quickly....
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SumChristianus
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Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread - 2018

Thu Feb 01, 2018 3:46 am

Midwestindy wrote:
SumChristianus wrote:
I've been working through some DB1B tables and have created a rudimentary table for IND connections. Interestingly TPA-MDW seems the largest connecting market through IND (7 PDEW) while EWR-ATL, ATL-BOS, BOS-MDW, DEN-RSW, and HOU-MDW all show up highly as connecting markets.
https://drive.google.com/open?id=1-XVJJ--GDzpc9SWu277pWYa_4U-V5cmI

For DL, their largest market after ATL on IND-ATL flights is IND-TPA (27 PDEW) , MCO, FLL, MSY, and RSW also showing up highly.
At that rate I think they'll restart at least a weekend CR7 to TPA.
RDU sees about 10 PDEW through ATL from IND, in addition to the nonstop IND-RDU passengers. A third daily flight could eventually be a possibility.
Just for kicks, with the CVG upgauges for DL and their growth in the general area, how about 3x daily CRJ IND-CVG? Highly unlikely, but maybe only a little more outrageous than AAs 6x daily ER4s PHL-JFK?


Interesting, I pulled some other routes for DL only pax:
*indicates already served city pair by DL
IND-TPA Q1: 34 PDEW, Q2: IND-TPA 29 PDEW
IND-FLL Q1: 37 PDEW, Q2: IND-FLL 41 PDEW
*IND-MIA Q1: 31 PDEW, Q2 IND-MIA 24 PDEW
*IND-RSW Q1: 31 PDEW, Q2: IND-RSW 35 PDEW
*IND-MCO Q1: 83 PDEW, Q2: IND-MCO 94 PDEW



Is that total, nonstop+connecting passengers?

Looking at DLs largest domestic markets from IND. (Q3 2017) I put the largest markets in terms of passengers they carry but do not serve directly in bold. FLL, LAS, AUS, and SAN (sooooort of) seem like possibilities from this list.

City Passenger Number (Divide by 9.1 for Directional PDEW) Average Fare
ATL 2559 $195.60
LGA 2002 $202.20
MSP 1535 $274.11
BOS 1368 $227.55
MCO 779 $149.11
LAX 740 $269.60
RDU 633 $215.91
DTW 539 $280.76
JFK 450 $202.55
SLC 399 $302.28
SEA 379 $266.13
SAN 335 $222.06
TPA 264 $183.66
PDX 258 $268.65

SFO 254 $270.46
LAS 238 $218.48
FLL 236 $193.90
MSY 221 $185.33
RSW 217 $187.26
PBI 196 $228.49
JAX 162 $251.12
MEM 155 $301.85
SRQ 142 $194.40
AUS 142 $230.78
PHL 137 $243.17
PNS 136 $226.79
CHS 134 $252.59
DFW 132 $245.15
BDL 128 $235.00
DAB 125 $170.98
MIA 123 $184.07
SAT 121 $251.20
DEN 120 $197.08
Grand Total 20780 $245.09

The largest indirect markets (only passengers who travel indirectly from IND on all carriers) are as follows.
Sum of PASSENGERS (Divide by 9.1 for Directional PDEW) Average Fare
SFO 1365 $272.61
SEA 1353 $230.99
SAN 1229 $226.06
PDX 1066 $246.46
LAX 873 $265.86
AUS 864 $231.46
MCO 789 $147.32
LAS 711 $209.72
SAT 692 $233.25
SNA 687 $252.07
SMF 648 $288.00
MSY 638 $182.76
SLC 624 $247.77
FLL 624 $180.93
BOS 622 $210.08
SJC 578 $259.51
PHX 563 $235.56
TPA 543 $187.90
BDL 531 $227.95
RDU 485 $210.34
JAX 435 $244.96
DEN 427 $201.86
PHL 416 $260.36
ONT 414 $278.14
RSW 388 $187.05
SJU 377 $226.74
CHS 372 $228.90
PVD 358 $208.67
MSP 346 $231.89
HNL 338 $473.17
PBI 335 $208.05
ORF 334 $230.20
ABQ 332 $244.12
OAK 329 $271.24

SFO/OAK will probably be way down as the full year impact of VX is reported and WN enters IND-OAK, but its interesting to see how many West Coast and Florida markets are on this list.

Also here is the origin city for traffic on all carriers connecting through IND.

Origin city for traffic connecting through IND. Passengers (Divide by 9.1 for Directional PDEW) City Fare
ORD 320 $276.35
ATL 307 $229.76
EWR 273 $178.34
DEN 219 $215.96
BOS 212 $189.53
DCA 170 $250.41
LAX 153 $315.83
DTW 135 $326.08
TPA 133 $175.12
MDW 131 $131.24
BWI 128 $177.78
CLT 103 $287.76
RSW 100 $187.44
MCI 84 $184.55
DFW 84 $323.42
LGA 82 $263.97
LAS 75 $256.56
PHL 73 $346.08
MSP 68 $354.59
HOU 68 $144.63
SEA 67 $226.19
MCO 65 $181.53
SFO 61 $489.96
PHX 53 $289.34
AUS 50 $221.51
IAD 50 $302.11

About 35 people a day from ORD connect through IND (and sometimes another airport) to their final destination, for example.

Sorry for the rudimentary nature of all my numbers (having to divide by 9.1 to get directional PDEW) but I'm still learning Excel.
All numbers are from the Q3 2017 USDOT DB1B report.

On G4 I think there base will scale up quickly, I think CVG will always be bigger for them, but they have a lot of potential here.
Its amazing to have three airlines significantly committed to IND, DL, WN, and G4, I think its good balance, but I'm always impressed at load factors on IND flights compared with the market sizes given through O&D reports.

I don't know about F9, I thought it was Jan/Feb though, but can't remember where I read that.

Does 170 PDEW connecting to international destinations through ATL on DL sound right to you? I compared T100 numbers to DB1B for all DL routings that included a IND-ATL segment and came up 170 PDEW short, which I believe means they are connecting internationally, right?

The French Consul General was at IND today meeting with DL and the air service development team at the airport....I wonder what was discussed.... https://twitter.com/GJ_Lacroix/status/9 ... 6005875719

Probably marketing on the France side for the CDG flight.

Much larger Asian population though, and probably stronger business ties as well...

On TPAC service, PDX is on the west-coast as well, so that's another advantage. From what I've read total Asia demand is around 90 PDEW from IND (as of 2011), and I think given the route length disperse nature of the demand, intermediate connecting options, and supposedly low Asia yields that if we ever see an Asian service it will be after 2030.
AUS might see such service sooner though.
 
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flymco753
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Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread - 2018

Thu Feb 01, 2018 4:52 am

I’m quite surprised at IND-DTW, for a flight that close those are pretty solid numbers. From what I understand, those who travel from Indianapolis to Detroit on business can make a day trip since the first flight leaves early from IND and leaves late from DTW on DL.
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Midwestindy
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Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread - 2018

Thu Feb 01, 2018 12:39 pm

SumChristianus wrote:
Midwestindy wrote:

Interesting, I pulled some other routes for DL only pax:
*indicates already served city pair by DL
IND-TPA Q1: 34 PDEW, Q2: IND-TPA 29 PDEW
IND-FLL Q1: 37 PDEW, Q2: IND-FLL 41 PDEW
*IND-MIA Q1: 31 PDEW, Q2 IND-MIA 24 PDEW
*IND-RSW Q1: 31 PDEW, Q2: IND-RSW 35 PDEW
*IND-MCO Q1: 83 PDEW, Q2: IND-MCO 94 PDEW



Is that total, nonstop+connecting passengers?

For IND-MIA/RSW/MCO I believe that is nonstop+connecting pax on DL only, IND-TPA/FLL is DL only connection passengers

SumChristianus wrote:
Looking at DLs largest domestic markets from IND. (Q3 2017) I put the largest markets in terms of passengers they carry but do not serve directly in bold. FLL, LAS, AUS, and SAN (sooooort of) seem like possibilities from this list.

City Passenger Number (Divide by 9.1 for Directional PDEW) Average Fare
ATL 2559 $195.60
LGA 2002 $202.20
MSP 1535 $274.11
BOS 1368 $227.55
MCO 779 $149.11
LAX 740 $269.60
RDU 633 $215.91
DTW 539 $280.76
JFK 450 $202.55
SLC 399 $302.28
SEA 379 $266.13
SAN 335 $222.06
TPA 264 $183.66
PDX 258 $268.65

SFO 254 $270.46
LAS 238 $218.48
FLL 236 $193.90
MSY 221 $185.33
RSW 217 $187.26
PBI 196 $228.49
JAX 162 $251.12
MEM 155 $301.85
SRQ 142 $194.40
AUS 142 $230.78
PHL 137 $243.17
PNS 136 $226.79
CHS 134 $252.59
DFW 132 $245.15
BDL 128 $235.00
DAB 125 $170.98
MIA 123 $184.07
SAT 121 $251.20
DEN 120 $197.08
Grand Total 20780 $245.09

The numbers to AUS and SAT are weakened by the fact that DL doesn't have a nearby hub, so flying UA, AA, or WN is much more convenient. I think IND-AUS/SAT is much more viable than the data might suggest.

SumChristianus wrote:
Does 170 PDEW connecting to international destinations through ATL on DL sound right to you? I compared T100 numbers to DB1B for all DL routings that included a IND-ATL segment and came up 170 PDEW short, which I believe means they are connecting internationally, right?

The French Consul General was at IND today meeting with DL and the air service development team at the airport....I wonder what was discussed.... https://twitter.com/GJ_Lacroix/status/9 ... 6005875719

Probably marketing on the France side for the CDG flight.

Much larger Asian population though, and probably stronger business ties as well...

On TPAC service, PDX is on the west-coast as well, so that's another advantage. From what I've read total Asia demand is around 90 PDEW from IND (as of 2011), and I think given the route length disperse nature of the demand, intermediate connecting options, and supposedly low Asia yields that if we ever see an Asian service it will be after 2030.
AUS might see such service sooner though.


I'm not sure on the in'l connections part, your guess is as good as mine.

Brookings data is obsolete at this point, billions of dollars of investment have been made since 2011.
2018: ATL, BOS, CDG, DCA, DFW, DTW, JFK, IND, LAX, LGA, MIA, MSP, ORD, TPA....Loading....
 
Jshank83
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Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread - 2018

Thu Feb 01, 2018 5:01 pm

I saw F9 is adding IND-PHL. Based on the price of tickets on that route it looks like a good add to bring prices down. AA is charging a lot for nonstops now. Looks like it is only Monday and Friday* though. Wish it would be at least 3 days a week.

EDIT: I mixed up my days. The poster below me was right.
Last edited by Jshank83 on Thu Feb 01, 2018 5:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
stlgph
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Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread - 2018

Thu Feb 01, 2018 5:11 pm

It is a good add. I'm getting Monday and Fridays, though. For $29 one way, could be fun to grab a Starbucks, a pretzel, and a book and take to the skies!
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pgphonehome
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Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread - 2018

Thu Feb 01, 2018 5:12 pm

Surprising to see PHL return for F9 so recently since they tried it one or two years ago. Was that flight daily?

Maybe they see 2X a week as more reasonable.
 
stlgph
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Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread - 2018

Thu Feb 01, 2018 5:41 pm

As I recall, it was four weekly.
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indygs
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Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread - 2018

Thu Feb 01, 2018 9:24 pm

Wasn't that flight to TTN?
 
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Midwestindy
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Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread - 2018

Thu Feb 01, 2018 10:05 pm

Jshank83 wrote:
I saw F9 is adding IND-PHL. Based on the price of tickets on that route it looks like a good add to bring prices down. AA is charging a lot for nonstops now. Looks like it is only Monday and Friday* though. Wish it would be at least 3 days a week.

EDIT: I mixed up my days. The poster below me was right.


stlgph wrote:
It is a good add. I'm getting Monday and Fridays, though. For $29 one way, could be fun to grab a Starbucks, a pretzel, and a book and take to the skies!


The airport hasn't even released an announcement for this, I wonder why? They have a press release for every new route.....

Anyway it looks like the F9 dart board is out again, I wonder if this flight will actually last...nevertheless I still believe good stuff is happening at IND regardless: Here is a list of the new nonstop flights IND has announced or started in the past year, not including frequency changes
SEA (DL and AS)
CDG (DL)
PHL (F9)
CHS (G4)
SRQ (G4)
AZA (G4)
AUS (WN and G4)
VPS (G4)
LAS (F9)
TPA (F9)
CUN (WN)
OAK (WN)
SFO (VX/AS)
SAN (WN)
EWR (WN)
MSY (WN)
Last edited by Midwestindy on Thu Feb 01, 2018 10:11 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Jshank83
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Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread - 2018

Thu Feb 01, 2018 10:08 pm

^They did retweet the Frontier tweet about it.

You also have AUS listed twice in that list :-)

Could you put the airline by all of them? I am just curious. Thanks
 
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Midwestindy
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Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread - 2018

Thu Feb 01, 2018 10:20 pm

Jshank83 wrote:
^They did retweet the Frontier tweet about it.

You also have AUS listed twice in that list :-)

Could you put the airline by all of them? I am just curious. Thanks


Yeah, but they usually have a seperate twitter post and a post in the media section of their website, they announce virtually anything in the media section, the last announcement was "Indy Airport Executive Elected Chair of Indiana Latino Institute Board" if that tells you anything... So that's why I thought it was odd

Thanks I changed everything as well
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stlgph
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Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread - 2018

Thu Feb 01, 2018 10:55 pm

Typically the courtesy would be extended to Frontier Airlines to let them post and make the announcement first, which, that being said, they (Frontier) appear to have done, but that may explain the delay.
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zackary747
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Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread - 2018

Thu Feb 01, 2018 11:14 pm

I saw the data on the Frontier flight the first time around. They ended IND-PHL with an 85 percent fill rate. (Flightaware data insight)

I think they ended it due to fleet issues rather than profit issues. The flight was full.

There is a difference this time around.
1. The PHL "focus city" is getting ramped up like it's never been before. (More cities are being served, plenty of those are smaller than IND)
2. These routes are seasonal which give more leverage this time around. I don't think they have the fleet compasity to run those routes all year around this time.
3. They're doing better out of medium sized cities too.

Therefore, I don't think this is a dart board. (Frontier has become MUCH more stable). I think Frontier is finally finding their areas of growth. They added Indy back because it WAS profitable in the past. You have to realize they're just now growing their fleet by a substantial number (which in return creates a much more stable route network if done correctly)
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Jshank83
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Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread - 2018

Fri Feb 02, 2018 12:36 am

I still haven't figured out F9's strategy. They cut, or cut back, routes that seem to be doing well sometimes and it doesn't make much sense to me. It is going to be hard to get some kind of loyalty on a route when you are cutting it before many people even know you are flying it. That or they will run a route, then cut it the next year and run a different route, and then switch back the year after that. I would think it would be better just to keep the same one for the 3 years and see how it does.

Thanks Indy for updating those airlines. I appreciate it.
 
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Midwestindy
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Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread - 2018

Fri Feb 02, 2018 2:40 am

zackary747 wrote:
2. These routes are seasonal which give more leverage this time around. I don't think they have the fleet compasity to run those routes all year around this time.

Therefore, I don't think this is a dart board. (Frontier has become MUCH more stable). I think Frontier is finally finding their areas of growth. They added Indy back because it WAS profitable in the past. You have to realize they're just now growing their fleet by a substantial number (which in return creates a much more stable route network if done correctly)


A few things here

1.The flight was seasonal last time around
2.Maybe this flight is less "Dart board," but there were certainly some oddball routes that they are just throwing out there.
MIA-SJU, PHL-GRR, and TUL-SJC strike me as dart board routes...
3. I don't think their network is very stable compared to say (NK, WN, G4, and the US3) they recently announced that they were going to ramp up ops in CLE and subsequently went and cut 6 routes from there, they announced multiple routes last year that were never made bookable, furthermore they have a hard time giving routes a chance to mature (ie ISP-MSY)....

Jshank83 wrote:
I still haven't figured out F9's strategy. They cut, or cut back, routes that seem to be doing well sometimes and it doesn't make much sense to me. It is going to be hard to get some kind of loyalty on a route when you are cutting it before many people even know you are flying it. That or they will run a route, then cut it the next year and run a different route, and then switch back the year after that. I would think it would be better just to keep the same one for the 3 years and see how it does.


I agree with this

While I'd love to be proven wrong and I appreciate the fact that F9 has recently added 3 new nonstops, it's hard to have that much faith in anything F9 does. And anyways, I feel like it would have been more profitable for F9 to try a route like IND-SAT
2018: ATL, BOS, CDG, DCA, DFW, DTW, JFK, IND, LAX, LGA, MIA, MSP, ORD, TPA....Loading....
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