fjmm92
Topic Author
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Ethiopian ADD-FCO-MAD to become ADD-BCN-MAD

Wed Jan 03, 2018 11:12 am

Ethiopian Airlines has modified Addis Ababa-Madrid route which has been added a stop at Barcelona (BCN) from 4 June 2018 instead of Rome (FCO).

23:15 ADD - 04:25 BCN 05:25 - 06:25 MAD 788 2 3 4 7
19:30 MAD - 20:30 BCN 22:45 - 05:50 ADD 788 1 2 3 5
Last edited by qf789 on Wed Jan 03, 2018 1:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: wrong airport code
 
LIPZ
Posts: 527
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Re: Ethiopian EDD-FCO-MAD to become EDD-BCN-MAD

Wed Jan 03, 2018 12:22 pm

They are also launching new flights to Geneva 3 times per week (--3-5-7)
 
xorrygva
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Re: Ethiopian EDD-FCO-MAD to become EDD-BCN-MAD

Wed Jan 03, 2018 1:05 pm

LIPZ wrote:
They are also launching new flights to Geneva 3 times per week (--3-5-7)


That's interesting news (for me at least :) ). Have they announced it officially yet? I cannot find anything recent.
 
LIPZ
Posts: 527
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Re: Ethiopian ADD-FCO-MAD to become ADD-BCN-MAD

Wed Jan 03, 2018 1:55 pm

You can find it through their website (or GDS as well)

ET 726 ADD GVA 2310 0725 (-2-4-6-)
ET 727 GVA ADD 2045 0550 (--3-5-7)

with a techincal stop in MXP both ways
 
xorrygva
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Re: Ethiopian ADD-FCO-MAD to become ADD-BCN-MAD

Wed Jan 03, 2018 2:00 pm

LIPZ wrote:
You can find it through their website (or GDS as well)

ET 726 ADD GVA 2310 0725 (-2-4-6-)
ET 727 GVA ADD 2045 0550 (--3-5-7)

with a techincal stop in MXP both ways


Thanks a lot!
 
330lover
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Re: Ethiopian ADD-FCO-MAD to become ADD-BCN-MAD

Wed Jan 03, 2018 2:08 pm

LIPZ wrote:
You can find it through their website (or GDS as well)

ET 726 ADD GVA 2310 0725 (-2-4-6-)
ET 727 GVA ADD 2045 0550 (--3-5-7)

with a techincal stop in MXP both ways



Technical seems strange to me. Distance between MXP and GVA is not that big, sure their aircraft don't need to stop on this route.
It's more a commercial stop, combining 2 destinations, if you ask me.
Britten Norman Islander VP-FBR on Falkland Islands. THAT'S FLYING!
 
behramjee
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Re: Ethiopian ADD-FCO-MAD to become ADD-BCN-MAD

Wed Jan 03, 2018 2:24 pm

So it's 2 new EU destinations ie BCN and GVA from S18...correct?
 
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Miguel1982
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Re: Ethiopian ADD-FCO-MAD to become ADD-BCN-MAD

Wed Jan 03, 2018 2:35 pm

IAHWorldflyer wrote:
Why keep the plane on the ground all day in MAD? They could easily depart around 08:00 and be back in ADD by late afternoon.


Most (if not all) of ET's European flights follow the same schedule. Planes are parked in Europe during the whole day and only return to ADD late at night. Demand should be higher for the night flights, I guess.
 
IAHWorldflyer
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Re: Ethiopian ADD-FCO-MAD to become ADD-BCN-MAD

Wed Jan 03, 2018 2:36 pm

fjmm92 wrote:
Ethiopian Airlines has modified Addis Ababa-Madrid route which has been added a stop at Barcelona (BCN) from 4 June 2018 instead of Rome (FCO).

23:15 ADD - 04:25 BCN 05:25 - 06:25 MAD 788 2 3 4 7
19:30 MAD - 20:30 BCN 22:45 - 05:50 ADD 788 1 2 3 5


Why keep the plane on the ground all day in MAD? They could easily depart around 08:00 and be back in ADD by late afternoon.
 
AF773
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Re: Ethiopian ADD-FCO-MAD to become ADD-BCN-MAD

Wed Jan 03, 2018 2:57 pm

IAHWorldflyer wrote:
fjmm92 wrote:
Ethiopian Airlines has modified Addis Ababa-Madrid route which has been added a stop at Barcelona (BCN) from 4 June 2018 instead of Rome (FCO).

23:15 ADD - 04:25 BCN 05:25 - 06:25 MAD 788 2 3 4 7
19:30 MAD - 20:30 BCN 22:45 - 05:50 ADD 788 1 2 3 5


Why keep the plane on the ground all day in MAD? They could easily depart around 08:00 and be back in ADD by late afternoon.



Most passengers transfer in ADD and there is a huge departure bank in the morning both domestic and to the rest of Africa.
Next flights: DCA-ATL-PNS; IAD-AMS-CDG-BOD-CDG-IAD; DCA-ATL-SAN; DCA-LGA; IAD-CDG-TLN; DCA-JFK-MEX-CUN-ATL-DCA; DCA-MSP-SEA; IAD-CDG-VCE
 
LIPZ
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Re: Ethiopian ADD-FCO-MAD to become ADD-BCN-MAD

Wed Jan 03, 2018 3:27 pm

behramjee wrote:
So it's 2 new EU destinations ie BCN and GVA from S18...correct?

Correct.

They also increase other destinations in Europe, with the most surprising being FCO wich goes from 7 to 9 weekly by introducing a new morning departure on Fr/Sa.
It's something uncommon since all the European flights leave at night.
 
SCQ83
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Re: Ethiopian ADD-FCO-MAD to become ADD-BCN-MAD

Wed Jan 03, 2018 4:05 pm

So how will flights combined with ET?

I can think of BCN-MAD, MXP-GVA, CPH-ARN (?), CDG-BRU, DUB-LAX... anyone has a full list?
 
LIPZ
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Re: Ethiopian ADD-FCO-MAD to become ADD-BCN-MAD

Wed Jan 03, 2018 4:27 pm

Considering July, it should be something like

ET 503/504 ADD-DUB-(LAX)-DUB-ADD 4xw
ET 700/701 ADD-LHR-ADD 7xw
ET 702/703 ADD-FCO-MXP-FCO-ADD 3xw
ET 704/705 ADD-CDG-ADD 7xw
ET 706/707 ADD-FRA-ADD 7xw
ET 712/713 ADD-BCN-MAD-BCN-ADD 4xw
ET 714/715 ADD-ARN-OSL-ARN-ADD 5xw
ET 724/725 ADD-VIE-BRU-VIE-ADD 7xw
ET 726/727 ADD-MXP-GVA-MXP-ADD 3xw
ET 732/733 ADD-FCO-ADD 2xw
ET 734/735 ADD-FCO-ADD 2xw
ET 736/737 ADD-FCO-ADD 2xw
 
Kadish
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Re: Ethiopian ADD-FCO-MAD to become ADD-BCN-MAD

Wed Jan 03, 2018 7:00 pm

Is not more logic geographically speaking flying first to Más and then to BCN?
 
berari
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Re: Ethiopian ADD-FCO-MAD to become ADD-BCN-MAD

Thu Jan 04, 2018 12:16 am

xorrygva wrote:
LIPZ wrote:
They are also launching new flights to Geneva 3 times per week (--3-5-7)


That's interesting news (for me at least :) ). Have they announced it officially yet? I cannot find anything recent.


ET usually loads the schedules into GDS/website then announces.

330lover wrote:
LIPZ wrote:
You can find it through their website (or GDS as well)

ET 726 ADD GVA 2310 0725 (-2-4-6-)
ET 727 GVA ADD 2045 0550 (--3-5-7)

with a techincal stop in MXP both ways



Technical seems strange to me. Distance between MXP and GVA is not that big, sure their aircraft don't need to stop on this route.
It's more a commercial stop, combining 2 destinations, if you ask me.


More commercial, since it will be carrying pax ADD-MXP. There is no 5th freedom rights on MXP-GVA-MXP, and it perhaps makes most economical sense to route via MXP than via FCO for example.

behramjee wrote:
So it's 2 new EU destinations ie BCN and GVA from S18...correct?


So far ...

Miguel1982 wrote:
IAHWorldflyer wrote:
Why keep the plane on the ground all day in MAD? They could easily depart around 08:00 and be back in ADD by late afternoon.


Most (if not all) of ET's European flights follow the same schedule. Planes are parked in Europe during the whole day and only return to ADD late at night. Demand should be higher for the night flights, I guess.


I believe this is the case. You may recall they had done a daytime ADD-FRA flight returning to ADD overnight. It didn't last beyond a season or two; now both ET and partner LH leave ADD at night with the ET aircraft parked at FRA all day for an overnight return.

LIPZ wrote:
behramjee wrote:
So it's 2 new EU destinations ie BCN and GVA from S18...correct?

Correct.

They also increase other destinations in Europe, with the most surprising being FCO wich goes from 7 to 9 weekly by introducing a new morning departure on Fr/Sa.
It's something uncommon since all the European flights leave at night.


This is the continuation of something good. Anyone following ET will have noticed that they are slowly building an afternoon bank at ADD, with flights arriving 1400-1500 and departing ADD 1600-1700. Notable flights are to East Africa, a nonstop to Guangzhou, one to Tel Aviv, and another to Delhi. The FCO flight is well timed to connect with the East African destinations. I'm most excited about this, and hope that it is not limited to the summer season (although it may be given the 2x frequency.) Gaining additional frequency to FCO has long been a challenge for ET.

A new addition to the afternoon bank is a third daily to Johannesburg. Today they have a daytime turnaround service using A350s and a night time B738 that is parked at JNB all day. By adding a third flight, all three (one A350 and two B738s) will turnaround within hours.

SCQ83 wrote:
So how will flights combined with ET?

I can think of BCN-MAD, MXP-GVA, CPH-ARN (?), CDG-BRU, DUB-LAX... anyone has a full list?


ET does not fly to CPH. Also, the ADD-CDG-BRU was decoupled, with ET only doing ADD-CDG and BRU being served via VIE. The latter service is going daily as of June, which may be scaled back in the winter as per previous years.

Kadish wrote:
Is not more logic geographically speaking flying first to Más and then to BCN?


Geographically speaking it makes sense to do ADD-BCN-MAD since BCN is closer to ADD than MAD. Geo-politically it may make more sense to do ADD-MAD-BCN but it appears that MAD is not strong enough to warrant a nonstop, that it can be sustained with a stop somewhere.
 
NichCage
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Re: Ethiopian ADD-FCO-MAD to become ADD-BCN-MAD

Thu Jan 04, 2018 12:56 am

I think I read somewhere that ET wants to fly to MUC, but nothing has come up so far.

Why isn't BRU a non-stop terminator service from ADD? BRU has lots of demand for Africa, so I would imagine an daily or several weekly ADD-BRU-ADD service would work out pretty well.
 
Dominion301
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Re: Ethiopian ADD-FCO-MAD to become ADD-BCN-MAD

Thu Jan 04, 2018 2:01 pm

Do any of ET's multi-stops actually have 5th freedom rights? Evenidently BCN-MAD would not (well at least so long as BCN is still part of Spain :duck: ).
 
Skyblue39
Posts: 217
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Re: Ethiopian ADD-FCO-MAD to become ADD-BCN-MAD

Thu Jan 04, 2018 2:20 pm

Dominion301 wrote:
Do any of ET's multi-stops actually have 5th freedom rights? Evenidently BCN-MAD would not (well at least so long as BCN is still part of Spain :duck: ).


Dublin - Los Angeles - Dublin has traffic rights and picks up passengers in DUB to Addis Ababa and to LAX
 
berari
Posts: 455
Joined: Wed Jul 06, 2016 3:47 pm

Re: Ethiopian ADD-FCO-MAD to become ADD-BCN-MAD

Thu Jan 04, 2018 7:00 pm

Dominion301 wrote:
Do any of ET's multi-stops actually have 5th freedom rights? Evenidently BCN-MAD would not (well at least so long as BCN is still part of Spain :duck: ).


The following do:
ARN-OSL-ARN
DUB-LAX-DUB

The following don't/wont:
VIE-BRU-VIE
MXP-GVA-MXP
BCN-MAD-BCN

NichCage wrote:
I think I read somewhere that ET wants to fly to MUC, but nothing has come up so far.

Why isn't BRU a non-stop terminator service from ADD? BRU has lots of demand for Africa, so I would imagine an daily or several weekly ADD-BRU-ADD service would work out pretty well.


Does BRU itself have a lot of demand for Africa, or is it that its homegrown airline has made big business out of Africa by funneling traffic into BRU from elsewhere and taking it to Africa and vice versa? The traffic you speak of is not confined to Eastern and Southern Africa where ET connectivity would make sense (colonial ties for Belgium only exist to Rwanda, Burundi and the DRC;) looking at Brussels Airlines' route map to Africa, you will notice that it serves a lot of West African destinations that would require some major backtracking from ADD. In fact, I don't recall ET serving BRU nonstop ever, while other newer European destinations have commanded such terminator service. Cargo remains big business for ET at BRU.
 
SCQ83
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Re: Ethiopian ADD-FCO-MAD to become ADD-BCN-MAD

Sun Mar 11, 2018 7:43 am

Ethiopian is cancelling Barcelona and flying ADD-MAD non-stop:

https://www.routesonline.com/news/38/ai ... f-08mar18/

Addis Ababa – Barcelona – Madrid eff 03JUN18 Previously planned new routing is cancelled (Refer to Addis Ababa – Madrid entry for additional update)

Addis Ababa – Madrid eff 03JUN18 Madrid service will be operating as nonstop in both direction, replacing 1-stop service via Rome (until 31MAY18). 787-8 operates 3 weekly (Day 247 from ADD / Day 135 from MAD), 4 weekly from 30JUN18
ET712 ADD2350 – 0855+1MAD 788 x135
ET713 MAD2015 – 0700+1ADD 788 x246
 
Kadish
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Re: Ethiopian ADD-FCO-MAD to become ADD-BCN-MAD

Sun Mar 11, 2018 9:37 am

SCQ83 wrote:
Ethiopian is cancelling Barcelona and flying ADD-MAD non-stop:

https://www.routesonline.com/news/38/ai ... f-08mar18/

Addis Ababa – Barcelona – Madrid eff 03JUN18 Previously planned new routing is cancelled (Refer to Addis Ababa – Madrid entry for additional update)

Addis Ababa – Madrid eff 03JUN18 Madrid service will be operating as nonstop in both direction, replacing 1-stop service via Rome (until 31MAY18). 787-8 operates 3 weekly (Day 247 from ADD / Day 135 from MAD), 4 weekly from 30JUN18
ET712 ADD2350 – 0855+1MAD 788 x135
ET713 MAD2015 – 0700+1ADD 788 x246



Makes more sense
 
MalevTU134
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Re: Ethiopian ADD-FCO-MAD to become ADD-BCN-MAD

Sun Mar 11, 2018 9:50 am

behramjee wrote:
So it's 2 new EU destinations ie BCN and GVA from S18...correct?

Technically, no. GVA (or rather, Switzerland) is not part of the EU (if you by that mean the European Union).
And BCN seems gone now. So, again, technically, no new EU destinations... :)
 
jubguy3
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Re: Ethiopian ADD-FCO-MAD to become ADD-BCN-MAD

Sun Mar 11, 2018 6:21 pm

MalevTU134 wrote:
behramjee wrote:
So it's 2 new EU destinations ie BCN and GVA from S18...correct?

Technically, no. GVA (or rather, Switzerland) is not part of the EU (if you by that mean the European Union).
And BCN seems gone now. So, again, technically, no new EU destinations... :)


BCN was a technical stop, not a destination. They obviously could not transport passengers between BCN and MAD because that would entail cabotage and I believe is disallowed anywhere in the world.
 
MalevTU134
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Re: Ethiopian ADD-FCO-MAD to become ADD-BCN-MAD

Sun Mar 11, 2018 6:32 pm

jubguy3 wrote:
MalevTU134 wrote:
behramjee wrote:
So it's 2 new EU destinations ie BCN and GVA from S18...correct?

Technically, no. GVA (or rather, Switzerland) is not part of the EU (if you by that mean the European Union).
And BCN seems gone now. So, again, technically, no new EU destinations... :)


BCN was a technical stop, not a destination. They obviously could not transport passengers between BCN and MAD because that would entail cabotage and I believe is disallowed anywhere in the world.

BCN was definitely planned as a destination. Why would they need BCN as a technical stop? And there are plenty of examples of traffic rights for non-European airlines within the ECAA, whereof ET holds one: ARN-OSL-ARN.
Last edited by MalevTU134 on Sun Mar 11, 2018 6:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
runway23
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Re: Ethiopian ADD-FCO-MAD to become ADD-BCN-MAD

Sun Mar 11, 2018 6:35 pm

jubguy3 wrote:
BCN was a technical stop, not a destination. They obviously could not transport passengers between BCN and MAD because that would entail cabotage and I believe is disallowed anywhere in the world.


They couldn’t sell BCN-MAD-BCN tickets but they could sell tickets from BCN and MAD to the rest of their network so BCN wasn’t just a technical stop...
 
c933103
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Re: Ethiopian ADD-FCO-MAD to become ADD-BCN-MAD

Sun Mar 11, 2018 6:44 pm

Would the FCO-MXP flight have cabotage right?
 
jubguy3
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Re: Ethiopian ADD-FCO-MAD to become ADD-BCN-MAD

Sun Mar 11, 2018 8:59 pm

MalevTU134 wrote:
jubguy3 wrote:
MalevTU134 wrote:
Technically, no. GVA (or rather, Switzerland) is not part of the EU (if you by that mean the European Union).
And BCN seems gone now. So, again, technically, no new EU destinations... :)


BCN was a technical stop, not a destination. They obviously could not transport passengers between BCN and MAD because that would entail cabotage and I believe is disallowed anywhere in the world.

BCN was definitely planned as a destination. Why would they need BCN as a technical stop? And there are plenty of examples of traffic rights for non-European airlines within the ECAA, whereof ET holds one: ARN-OSL-ARN.


But they didn't have the rights to transport passengers from BCN to MAD.... because only EU carriers can transport PAX between two airports in the same country. If BCN is planned as a destination, it will be ADD-BCN, not ADD-BCN-MAD. They have lots of technical stops because Addis Ababa is at a high elevation that can transport passengers from both spokes, but I'm not sure why they would stop in BCN. Maybe they decided it wasn't necessary.
 
MalevTU134
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Re: Ethiopian ADD-FCO-MAD to become ADD-BCN-MAD

Sun Mar 11, 2018 9:04 pm

jubguy3 wrote:
MalevTU134 wrote:
jubguy3 wrote:

BCN was a technical stop, not a destination. They obviously could not transport passengers between BCN and MAD because that would entail cabotage and I believe is disallowed anywhere in the world.

BCN was definitely planned as a destination. Why would they need BCN as a technical stop? And there are plenty of examples of traffic rights for non-European airlines within the ECAA, whereof ET holds one: ARN-OSL-ARN.


But they didn't have the rights to transport passengers from BCN to MAD.... because only EU carriers can transport PAX between two airports in the same country. If BCN is planned as a destination, it will be ADD-BCN, not ADD-BCN-MAD. They have lots of technical stops because Addis Ababa is at a high elevation that can transport passengers from both spokes, but I'm not sure why they would stop in BCN. Maybe they decided it wasn't necessary.

...or maybe you just answered your own question...why would they stop in BCN if it wasn't to pick up/drop off PAX. Not to/from MAD, but to/from ADD. ET does this all the time in Europe, so I don't understand why this is so hard for you to grasp...not technical stops but destinations, tag-ons. And seriously...do you think they can't make it from ADD to MAD? :roll: They don't fly Cessnas, you know...
But anyway, this is now all moot, since they are now flying MAD nonstop from ADD.
 
iadadd
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Re: Ethiopian ADD-FCO-MAD to become ADD-BCN-MAD

Mon Mar 12, 2018 12:41 am

With ET growing in popularity, I can imagine that in the next few years almost all ET flights to Europe will be nonstop terminators. Not too long ago even CDG and LHR had tag-ons.

Sad to see BCN cancelled prior to inception, but I can imagine demand was probably too low. ET is very quick to react to low demand and has no shame in re-adjusting capacity elsewhere.
 
Kadish
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Re: Ethiopian ADD-FCO-MAD to become ADD-BCN-MAD

Mon Mar 12, 2018 12:48 am

jubguy3 wrote:
MalevTU134 wrote:
jubguy3 wrote:

BCN was a technical stop, not a destination. They obviously could not transport passengers between BCN and MAD because that would entail cabotage and I believe is disallowed anywhere in the world.

BCN was definitely planned as a destination. Why would they need BCN as a technical stop? And there are plenty of examples of traffic rights for non-European airlines within the ECAA, whereof ET holds one: ARN-OSL-ARN.


But they didn't have the rights to transport passengers from BCN to MAD.... because only EU carriers can transport PAX between two airports in the same country. If BCN is planned as a destination, it will be ADD-BCN, not ADD-BCN-MAD. They have lots of technical stops because Addis Ababa is at a high elevation that can transport passengers from both spokes, but I'm not sure why they would stop in BCN. Maybe they decided it wasn't necessary.


Sure, using a brand new 787 requires technical stops.....lets be serious.
 
eamondzhang
Posts: 602
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Re: Ethiopian ADD-FCO-MAD to become ADD-BCN-MAD

Mon Mar 12, 2018 1:31 am

Kadish wrote:
jubguy3 wrote:
MalevTU134 wrote:
BCN was definitely planned as a destination. Why would they need BCN as a technical stop? And there are plenty of examples of traffic rights for non-European airlines within the ECAA, whereof ET holds one: ARN-OSL-ARN.


But they didn't have the rights to transport passengers from BCN to MAD.... because only EU carriers can transport PAX between two airports in the same country. If BCN is planned as a destination, it will be ADD-BCN, not ADD-BCN-MAD. They have lots of technical stops because Addis Ababa is at a high elevation that can transport passengers from both spokes, but I'm not sure why they would stop in BCN. Maybe they decided it wasn't necessary.


Sure, using a brand new 787 requires technical stops.....lets be serious.

They do require technical stops on many of their 787 flights. Let's also be serious on ADD's altitude please. It's not another airport like LHR or DXB or JFK.

Michael
 
MalevTU134
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Re: Ethiopian ADD-FCO-MAD to become ADD-BCN-MAD

Mon Mar 12, 2018 2:00 am

eamondzhang wrote:
Kadish wrote:
jubguy3 wrote:

But they didn't have the rights to transport passengers from BCN to MAD.... because only EU carriers can transport PAX between two airports in the same country. If BCN is planned as a destination, it will be ADD-BCN, not ADD-BCN-MAD. They have lots of technical stops because Addis Ababa is at a high elevation that can transport passengers from both spokes, but I'm not sure why they would stop in BCN. Maybe they decided it wasn't necessary.


Sure, using a brand new 787 requires technical stops.....lets be serious.

They do require technical stops on many of their 787 flights. Let's also be serious on ADD's altitude please. It's not another airport like LHR or DXB or JFK.

Michael

Are you serious? If they do ADD-GRU nonstop, why would ADD-MAD be a problem? Please think before posting....
 
eamondzhang
Posts: 602
Joined: Thu Sep 23, 2010 8:23 am

Re: Ethiopian ADD-FCO-MAD to become ADD-BCN-MAD

Mon Mar 12, 2018 3:48 am

MalevTU134 wrote:
eamondzhang wrote:
Kadish wrote:

Sure, using a brand new 787 requires technical stops.....lets be serious.

They do require technical stops on many of their 787 flights. Let's also be serious on ADD's altitude please. It's not another airport like LHR or DXB or JFK.

Michael

Are you serious? If they do ADD-GRU nonstop, why would ADD-MAD be a problem? Please think before posting....

Why not also mention they do ADD-PEK/PVG/CAN non-stop because they don't carry much cargo at all? If the route's margin is low enough and you need the cargo uplift to make it more profitable (or less loss making, but I doubt this case), try and lift a full plane off ADD's runway at the altitude? Mind you with ADD's runway length (3800m for the longest), 787-8 can only uplift ~430,000lbs/ 195 ton when departing from ADD under a standard temperature, that's 32 tons BELOW the MTOW. And that's a paper performance from Boeing's ACARS, which normally means that real performance is worse.

For ADD-MAD, 788's empty weight is 120t, excluding customer furnishing and we're not talking about terrible teens right here. ADD-MAD is a ~8 hour flight, and for 787 we're looking at 5~5.2t fuel per hour; adding on diversion and contingency fuel it's 50 tons gone already. You now have 25 tons left, and assuming a pax+bag weight of 100kg for easy calculation, in ET's config you can't even fill your cabin full before reaching the take-off weight limit.

Be serious, man, and try figure why I left the previous comment.

Michael
 
MalevTU134
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Re: Ethiopian ADD-FCO-MAD to become ADD-BCN-MAD

Mon Mar 12, 2018 4:25 am

eamondzhang wrote:
MalevTU134 wrote:
eamondzhang wrote:
They do require technical stops on many of their 787 flights. Let's also be serious on ADD's altitude please. It's not another airport like LHR or DXB or JFK.

Michael

Are you serious? If they do ADD-GRU nonstop, why would ADD-MAD be a problem? Please think before posting....

Why not also mention they do ADD-PEK/PVG/CAN non-stop because they don't carry much cargo at all? If the route's margin is low enough and you need the cargo uplift to make it more profitable (or less loss making, but I doubt this case), try and lift a full plane off ADD's runway at the altitude? Mind you with ADD's runway length (3800m for the longest), 787-8 can only uplift ~430,000lbs/ 195 ton when departing from ADD under a standard temperature, that's 32 tons BELOW the MTOW. And that's a paper performance from Boeing's ACARS, which normally means that real performance is worse.

For ADD-MAD, 788's empty weight is 120t, excluding customer furnishing and we're not talking about terrible teens right here. ADD-MAD is a ~8 hour flight, and for 787 we're looking at 5~5.2t fuel per hour; adding on diversion and contingency fuel it's 50 tons gone already. You now have 25 tons left, and assuming a pax+bag weight of 100kg for easy calculation, in ET's config you can't even fill your cabin full before reaching the take-off weight limit.

Be serious, man, and try figure why I left the previous comment.

Michael

Well, I guess you could do a good deed and call ET dispatch then, and tell them that they "require a technical stop" on their 6.5 hour flight (not 8 as you stated) to MAD with their brand new 787s, because they seem utterly unaware of this. Such fools they must be, mustn't they? And while you have them on the line, please also let them know about the rest of the "many of their 787 flights" that "require a technical stop". In fact, why don't you list the ones to Europe right here? (Nobody argues about the flights to LAX and IAD, of course.)
 
eamondzhang
Posts: 602
Joined: Thu Sep 23, 2010 8:23 am

Re: Ethiopian ADD-FCO-MAD to become ADD-BCN-MAD

Mon Mar 12, 2018 4:46 am

MalevTU134 wrote:
Well, I guess you could do a good deed and call ET dispatch then, and tell them that they "require a technical stop" on their 6.5 hour flight (not 8 as you stated) to MAD with their brand new 787s, because they seem utterly unaware of this. Such fools they must be, mustn't they? And while you have them on the line, please also let them know about the rest of the "many of their 787 flights" that "require a technical stop". In fact, why don't you list the ones to Europe right here? (Nobody argues about the flights to LAX and IAD, of course.)

I don't list the European flight because you're on the GRU subject, which is in the long-haul territory. ADD-GRU is a 12hr flight, and it's now a 359/77L flight while you're on it. I'm just arguing your point that why 788 needs a technical stop, what's wrong with it? Why CAN'T 788 flights having technical stops, especially with ADD's conditions? Please elaborate.

And while you're on it, ADD-FCO is a 6h flight already and you're saying ADD-MAD is only 30 minutes longer? Geography lesson guys. It's not like ET flies over Libya anyway. Please, again, get the fact right. With a schedule of 2350-0850 and it's heading west, crossing two time zones (and one in the summer), can it be 6.5 hr flight ever?

Michael
 
SCQ83
Posts: 3871
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Re: Ethiopian ADD-FCO-MAD to become ADD-BCN-MAD

Mon Mar 12, 2018 6:44 am

MalevTU134 wrote:
Well, I guess you could do a good deed and call ET dispatch then, and tell them that they "require a technical stop" on their 6.5 hour flight (not 8 as you stated) to MAD with their brand new 787s, because they seem utterly unaware of this. Such fools they must be, mustn't they? And while you have them on the line, please also let them know about the rest of the "many of their 787 flights" that "require a technical stop". In fact, why don't you list the ones to Europe right here? (Nobody argues about the flights to LAX and IAD, of course.)


You are being a bit delusional here. This cancellation involves BCN and is related to MAD.

As the last months have shown us, don't forget there are a few million people in that corner of Spain that live in Matrix. I bet in 10 messages we will be talking about some conspiracy theories about the Spanish (read Madrid) government asking ET not to stop in BCN on their way to MAD, or that this was a mistake and ET never intended to fly to BCN, or that this never happened (1984)... or whatever it fits better their parallel reality. I wouldn't be surprised if some local politician knows about it, he or she will post something like that in Twitter or social media.
 
Pe@rson
Posts: 16488
Joined: Sat Jan 13, 2001 6:29 pm

Re: Ethiopian ADD-FCO-MAD to become ADD-BCN-MAD

Mon Mar 12, 2018 9:22 am

These timings, for MAD and GVA, fit properly into their network that is timed for connections.

Wave 1

The arrivals bank in wave 1 is mainly 0600-0800, with the departures bank primarily 0800-1100. Wave 1 is therefore roughly 5 hours in duration.

The arrivals bank in wave 1, 0600-0800, involves arrivals from across:

Europe
The Middle East
Asia
North America
Various cities in Central, North, East, and Southern Africa

After around 2-to-4 hours on the ground, the departures bank in wave 1 sees aircraft departing across Africa.

Aircraft on long day-return flights, such as to Cape Town, Johannesburg, Durban, Windhoek, Gaborone, and Ouagadougou, at an average of 2,702 miles each way, leave early in the departure bank. Cape Town, for example, leaves at 0830.

Wave 2 – arrivals

The flights in the departure bank of wave 1 form the arrivals bank of wave 2, which is mainly 1900-2100 but extending to 2200.

In wave 2, the arrivals bank involves flights arriving back in Ethiopia from across Africa.

Not all intra-Africa flights could arrive back in time, which shows the difficulty of scheduling routes of very different lengths and added costs.

Long, one-stop services, such as Addis Ababa-Abidjan-Conakry and Addis Ababa-Bamako-Dakar, both nearly 4,000 miles, stay overnight in Conakry and Dakar. For example:

Addis Ababa-Abidjan: 1020-1315; Abidjan-Conakry: 1435-1625
Next day: Conakry-Abidjan: 0800-0950; Abjidan-Conakry: 1045-2000

Crew and aircraft overnight and then fly the next day to join the arrivals bank in wave 2. This is designed entirely to feed its evening departure bank from Addis Ababa. It would be much more ‘expensive’ were it to return without feed the other end.

Cape Town is 3,300 miles away from Addis Ababa and is mainly operated by the B787-8 or the B777-200LR. Flights from there arrive back at 2220 – quite a long time after the bulk of arrivals in this arrivals bank – after one hour on the ground in South Africa.

This illustrates the difficulty of long sectors, banks, and maximising connections, which can require much balancing.

Wave 2 – departures

The departures bank of wave 2 is primarily 2200-0100. This sees aircraft depart to:

The Middle East
Europe
Asia
North America
Some major cities in North, Central, Eastern, and Southern Africa

European flights are often on the ground in Europe for many hours because they arrive in Europe early in the morning and enter into the arrivals bank of wave 1 at 0600-0800 so that they can maximise onward connections across Africa.

For example, Ethiopian’s flight 704 leaves Addis Ababa at 0015 and arrives Paris/CDG at 0540. It then leaves Paris at 2145 and arrives into Addis Ababa at 0645 on day 3. This then enables many connection opportunities in Addis Ababa. With Ethiopian’s present wave structure, there would very little point if this Paris flight arrived back into Addis Ababa in the evening of day 2 as there would be considerably fewer flights across Africa.

The 2200-0100 departure bank also sees aircraft depart to some major cities in North, Central, Eastern, and Southern Africa. These then arrive back in the 0600-0800 arrivals bank the next day enabling easy connections within Africa. For example, Accra-Addis Ababa-Dar Es Salaam.
"Everyone writing for the Telegraph knows that the way to grab eyeballs is with Ryanair and/or sex."
 
berari
Posts: 455
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Re: Ethiopian ADD-FCO-MAD to become ADD-BCN-MAD

Mon Mar 12, 2018 3:54 pm

eamondzhang wrote:
Kadish wrote:

Sure, using a brand new 787 requires technical stops.....lets be serious.

They do require technical stops on many of their 787 flights. Let's also be serious on ADD's altitude please. It's not another airport like LHR or DXB or JFK.

Michael


Which "many" 787 flights do they require technical stops on? ET seems to be doing good despite the limitations and challenges that exist, and even working to go nonstop on flights to IAD and YYZ.

Pe@rson wrote:
These timings, for MAD and GVA, fit properly into their network that is timed for connections.


Good description. But you forgot the third wave in the afternoon.
 
Pe@rson
Posts: 16488
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Re: Ethiopian ADD-FCO-MAD to become ADD-BCN-MAD

Mon Mar 12, 2018 7:28 pm

berari wrote:
eamondzhang wrote:
Kadish wrote:


Good description. But you forgot the third wave in the afternoon.


I didn't forget. I omitted it on purpose to avoid any confusion and to focus on by far its biggest waves.

At present, its afternoon wave is small and mainly focused on Etihopia and a few regional destinations. Very few non-African cities, but some that do arrive back then (based on August), e.g.:

1340 Mumbai (having departed in the key evening bank)
1345 Delhi (having departed in the key evening bank)
1440 Tel Aviv (having departed in the key evening bank)

There are few destinations these can connect to, e.g. 1605 Entebbe (arriving back in evening bank), 1605 Khartoum (arriving back in evening bank), 1615 Johannesburg (arriving back in arrivals bank in the morning), and 1625 Nairobi (arriving back in evening bank). Some make a lot of sense (e.g., Nairobi from India).

This period also sees some non-African departures:

1500 Mumbai (then arriving back into the key early morning bank)
1610 Delhi (then arriving back into the key early morning bank)
1620 Tel Aviv (then arriving back into the key early morning bank)

There are various cities that will feed the above, e.g. 1320 Entebbe (having departed in the key morning bank), 1335 Nairobi (having departed in the key morning bank), 1410 Khartoum (having departed in the key morning bank), 1415 Johannesburg (having departed in the key evening bank).

It's also easy to fly India-Addis Ababa-Tel Aviv, e.g. arriving from Mumbai at 1340 and departing to Tel Aviv at 1620. While out of the way, it's one of the few options from India to Israel (El Al + new Air India) and often pretty cheap.
"Everyone writing for the Telegraph knows that the way to grab eyeballs is with Ryanair and/or sex."
 
berari
Posts: 455
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Re: Ethiopian ADD-FCO-MAD to become ADD-BCN-MAD

Mon Mar 12, 2018 10:14 pm

Pe@rson wrote:

At present, its afternoon wave is small and mainly focused on Etihopia and a few regional destinations. Very few non-African cities, but some that do arrive back then (based on August), e.g.:

1340 Mumbai (having departed in the key evening bank)
1345 Delhi (having departed in the key evening bank)
1440 Tel Aviv (having departed in the key evening bank)


2/3 of these non African destinations are already in place, with Mumbai being the only one that's coming up in a couple of months. You also left out Guangzhou which was seasonally started last year and will return this year. Rome, Italy is another one that will be added mid year. Additional African flights are being added, with Johannesburg getting a third flight (originally scheduled to start in June but actually starting later this month.)

Given the congestion at the airport, this new bank is key to ET's growth+expansion. There is still room to make the banks operate a little tighter, with less connection times at ADD, where developing this new bank gives them room for increased frequency.
 
eamondzhang
Posts: 602
Joined: Thu Sep 23, 2010 8:23 am

Re: Ethiopian ADD-FCO-MAD to become ADD-BCN-MAD

Mon Mar 12, 2018 11:22 pm

berari wrote:
Which "many" 787 flights do they require technical stops on? ET seems to be doing good despite the limitations and challenges that exist, and even working to go nonstop on flights to IAD and YYZ.

CAN-YVR-MEX, MEX-TIJ-PVG/PEK to name a few for you, ADD-DUB-LAX/ORD to name a few off top of my head.

I know they cope with the challenges well and I never denied that. My point is ADD is a challenging airport to operate from/to and if you have a marginal route that requires carrying full payload to maximise the profit, they won't be able to fly too far without the technical stop. ADD is not the normal airport that we have and it's easy to bring you a technical stop. You can even see from the examples that at least one of the airports involved is a high-altitude airport, which can easily curtail your performance.

Michael
 
MalevTU134
Posts: 1474
Joined: Tue Oct 11, 2016 8:04 pm

Re: Ethiopian ADD-FCO-MAD to become ADD-BCN-MAD

Mon Mar 12, 2018 11:30 pm

eamondzhang wrote:
berari wrote:
Which "many" 787 flights do they require technical stops on? ET seems to be doing good despite the limitations and challenges that exist, and even working to go nonstop on flights to IAD and YYZ.

CAN-YVR-MEX, MEX-TIJ-PVG/PEK to name a few for you, ADD-DUB-LAX/ORD to name a few off top of my head.

I know they cope with the challenges well and I never denied that. My point is ADD is a challenging airport to operate from/to and if you have a marginal route that requires carrying full payload to maximise the profit, they won't be able to fly too far without the technical stop. ADD is not the normal airport that we have and it's easy to bring you a technical stop. You can even see from the examples that at least one of the airports involved is a high-altitude airport, which can easily curtail your performance.

Michael

Get over this, already. This thread is about ET to MAD. You claimed they need a technical stop. You were wrong, even your own example of DUB (around 400 nm further away from ADD than is MAD) proves this. You were wrong, so what? As you were told, ET looks at doing ADD-IAD NONSTOP. Then, to claim that MAD needs a technical stop, it's just ludicrous.
 
eamondzhang
Posts: 602
Joined: Thu Sep 23, 2010 8:23 am

Re: Ethiopian ADD-FCO-MAD to become ADD-BCN-MAD

Mon Mar 12, 2018 11:38 pm

MalevTU134 wrote:
Get over this, already. Tjis thread is about ET to MAD. You claimed they need a technical stop. You were wrong, even your own example of DUB (around 400 nm further away from ADD than is MAD) proves this. You were wrong, so what? As you were told, ET looks at doing ADD-IAD NONSTOP. Then, to claim that MAD needs a technical stop, it's just ludicrous.

If you don't like it, stop from posting, simple and straight. Yes ET is planning IAD and YYZ non-stop, but is that a 788? Answer my question first. I can back my points up with data, can you? You just can't be proven wrong, right? I've said that, and I'll say again, it all DEPENDS ON the PAYLOAD that you wanted to carry, and BY NO MEANS ADD is a normal airport like LHR or JFK that you can treat easily.

If you don't like my post, then ignore it. What's the issue? Did someone screw up your coffee this morning?

Michael
 
berari
Posts: 455
Joined: Wed Jul 06, 2016 3:47 pm

Re: Ethiopian ADD-FCO-MAD to become ADD-BCN-MAD

Mon Mar 12, 2018 11:44 pm

eamondzhang wrote:
berari wrote:
Which "many" 787 flights do they require technical stops on? ET seems to be doing good despite the limitations and challenges that exist, and even working to go nonstop on flights to IAD and YYZ.

CAN-YVR-MEX, MEX-TIJ-PVG/PEK to name a few for you, ADD-DUB-LAX/ORD to name a few off top of my head.

I know they cope with the challenges well and I never denied that. My point is ADD is a challenging airport to operate from/to and if you have a marginal route that requires carrying full payload to maximise the profit, they won't be able to fly too far without the technical stop. ADD is not the normal airport that we have and it's easy to bring you a technical stop. You can even see from the examples that at least one of the airports involved is a high-altitude airport, which can easily curtail your performance.

Michael


Ethiopian flies CAN-YVR-MEX? Or are you way off topic? Is there even an aircraft that's capable of doing ADD-LAX nonstop? ET flies and is capable of flying nonstop to most of its far flung destinations nonstop using its 788.

Returning you to the topic, ET's ADD-MAD run is almost similar to its ADD-FRA, and shorter than ADD-LHR. Heck it has even done nonstop ADD-MAD at times using B738s. It will not need a tech stop for MAD.
 
eamondzhang
Posts: 602
Joined: Thu Sep 23, 2010 8:23 am

Re: Ethiopian ADD-FCO-MAD to become ADD-BCN-MAD

Tue Mar 13, 2018 12:21 am

berari wrote:

Ethiopian flies CAN-YVR-MEX? Or are you way off topic? Is there even an aircraft that's capable of doing ADD-LAX nonstop? ET flies and is capable of flying nonstop to most of its far flung destinations nonstop using its 788.

Returning you to the topic, ET's ADD-MAD run is almost similar to its ADD-FRA, and shorter than ADD-LHR. Heck it has even done nonstop ADD-MAD at times using B738s. It will not need a tech stop for MAD.

Hey didn't you ask for 787 flights with technical stops and what's wrong with CAN-YVR-MEX? You didn't specifically mention ET in the first sentence do you.

Regarding 738s, they actually have a smaller payload penalty (in %, I know tonnage can't be compared between the two) as far as the chart goes. I knew it, I saw it and I wasn't surprised.

Michael
 
MalevTU134
Posts: 1474
Joined: Tue Oct 11, 2016 8:04 pm

Re: Ethiopian ADD-FCO-MAD to become ADD-BCN-MAD

Tue Mar 13, 2018 12:30 am

eamondzhang wrote:
berari wrote:

Ethiopian flies CAN-YVR-MEX? Or are you way off topic? Is there even an aircraft that's capable of doing ADD-LAX nonstop? ET flies and is capable of flying nonstop to most of its far flung destinations nonstop using its 788.

Returning you to the topic, ET's ADD-MAD run is almost similar to its ADD-FRA, and shorter than ADD-LHR. Heck it has even done nonstop ADD-MAD at times using B738s. It will not need a tech stop for MAD.

Hey didn't you ask for 787 flights with technical stops and what's wrong with CAN-YVR-MEX? You didn't specifically mention ET in the first sentence do you.

Regarding 738s, they actually have a smaller payload penalty (in %, I know tonnage can't be compared between the two) as far as the chart goes. I knew it, I saw it and I wasn't surprised.

Michael

This whole thread is about ET and ADD. Yours are pathetic efforts to deflect attention from your earlier statements on ET needing a technical stop from ADD to MAD. Any other city pair in Mexico or what-have-you is irrelevant.
Nobody argues that ADD isn't high, but only you argue that that means ET need refueling stops on several of their Europe flights.
For me, this discussion is closed. The facts speak for themselves. Do keep trolling.
 
dkny
Posts: 570
Joined: Fri Mar 12, 2004 6:00 pm

Re: Ethiopian ADD-FCO-MAD to become ADD-BCN-MAD

Tue Mar 13, 2018 7:29 am

eamondzhang wrote:
berari wrote:

Ethiopian flies CAN-YVR-MEX? Or are you way off topic? Is there even an aircraft that's capable of doing ADD-LAX nonstop? ET flies and is capable of flying nonstop to most of its far flung destinations nonstop using its 788.

Returning you to the topic, ET's ADD-MAD run is almost similar to its ADD-FRA, and shorter than ADD-LHR. Heck it has even done nonstop ADD-MAD at times using B738s. It will not need a tech stop for MAD.

Hey didn't you ask for 787 flights with technical stops and what's wrong with CAN-YVR-MEX? You didn't specifically mention ET in the first sentence do you.

Regarding 738s, they actually have a smaller payload penalty (in %, I know tonnage can't be compared between the two) as far as the chart goes. I knew it, I saw it and I wasn't surprised.

Michael

I am pretty sure the 787 can do ADD-MAD without a technical stop. Like other pointed out above if the 787 can do ADD-DUB non stop, it can do ADD-MAD. ET 500 goes out full pax and cargo to DUB and it does just fine.
 
Pe@rson
Posts: 16488
Joined: Sat Jan 13, 2001 6:29 pm

Re: Ethiopian ADD-FCO-MAD to become ADD-BCN-MAD

Tue Mar 13, 2018 9:18 am

berari wrote:
Pe@rson wrote:

Given the congestion at the airport, this new bank is key to ET's growth+expansion. There is still room to make the banks operate a little tighter, with less connection times at ADD, where developing this new bank gives them room for increased frequency.


Yep, this will absolutely become more and more important going forward, with more connections.
"Everyone writing for the Telegraph knows that the way to grab eyeballs is with Ryanair and/or sex."

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