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keesje
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Air France - KLM no 737 MAX / A320 NEO orders

Tue Jan 09, 2018 1:00 pm

Air France - KLM group have hundreds of A320CEO / 737NG series flying around.

Many are aging, many have already been scrapped.
http://www.airfleets.net/flottecie/Air%20France-stored-a320.htm

Still no orders for either NEO or MAX. AF-KL Profits jumped above expectations.
https://www.cnbc.com/2017/11/03/air-france-klm-earnings-q3-2017-profit-jumps-as-price-trends-improve.html

Neighbors AIG, LH, SAS, Easyjet, Ryanair, all thinkable direct competitors committed years ago.

:point: NEO & MAX seem sold sold out for the next 6 years, so AF/KL will probably shrink
their narrowbody fleets or buy used CEO/NG frames.

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N717TW
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Re: Air France - KLM no 737 MAX / A320 NEO orders

Tue Jan 09, 2018 1:11 pm

Major customers seem to be able to find delivery slots from Airbus when they really want them (see e.g. Delta). There were a lot of very large orders (e.g. AirAsia) that just seem like they could be too large or at least too many, too fast. The sorting out of the actual need for new jets will create space for Airbus to squeeze in slots to other customers. If AF-KL wants new NEO 320s or 321s they will get them.

But AF has a number of mini-buses (318 and 319) and I don't expect them to replace those jets with 319s but with something lighter, either an CRJ/E-Jet/MRJ operated by a regional carrier or a CSeries operated by AF. The Intra-Europe and domestic France dynamics are a lot different then they were when AF placed the 318/319 orders years ago.
 
hooverman
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Re: Air France - KLM no 737 MAX / A320 NEO orders

Tue Jan 09, 2018 2:20 pm

KLM has always been late with ordering new aircraft. They will order the MAX no doubt.
According to https://www.luchtvaartnieuws.nl/nieuws/categorie/2/airlines/klm-vervanger-boeing-737-vloot-nog-niet-in-beeld article(dutch only) a few days ago KLM boss Pieter Elbers says they are not thinking of a 737 replacement yet, which I think is highly unlikely.
 
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Re: Air France - KLM no 737 MAX / A320 NEO orders

Tue Jan 09, 2018 2:21 pm

AFAIK AF is deciding some narrow-body orders this year. KLM has a rather young fleet of 737NG planes.
I agree they might be late with their orders.
 
Newbiepilot
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Re: Air France - KLM no 737 MAX / A320 NEO orders

Tue Jan 09, 2018 3:11 pm

Slots can be found when needed, especially to airlines paying a premium. Garuda just deferred their order for 737MAX for example.
 
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mercure1
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Re: Air France - KLM no 737 MAX / A320 NEO orders

Tue Jan 09, 2018 3:25 pm

Company for several years said decision due no earlier than 2018. Bulk of replacements are not need till mid 2020s.

http://aviationweek.com/commercial-avia ... t-decision
 
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JetBuddy
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Re: Air France - KLM no 737 MAX / A320 NEO orders

Tue Jan 09, 2018 3:27 pm

mercure1 wrote:
Company for several years said decision due no earlier than 2018. Bulk of replacements are not need till mid 2020s.

http://aviationweek.com/commercial-avia ... t-decision


Then we might see an order this year. Mid 2020s seem like a reasonable timeframe to get new 737s or A320s delivered, even with the massive backlogs.
 
pugman211
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Re: Air France - KLM no 737 MAX / A320 NEO orders

Tue Jan 09, 2018 3:40 pm

AF is still taking a few deliveries of brand new ceo's. One went down the line last month.
 
mjoelnir
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Re: Air France - KLM no 737 MAX / A320 NEO orders

Tue Jan 09, 2018 3:49 pm

KLM, the 737 fleet is not that old, all frames are NG. Enough time to decide on neo or MAX.

AF, their are some very old frames, but most of the A320 family fleet is not very old.
Two A320-200, 5 A321-100 and about 6 A319 are pretty old, all of the old A320-100 have been replaced already.
The fleet seems to have been slowly rolled over, as 92 A320 family frames have left the fleet and been replaced.
So AF would have to order 10 to 15 neo in the near future.
 
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SQ789
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Re: Air France - KLM no 737 MAX / A320 NEO orders

Tue Jan 09, 2018 3:54 pm

What is AIG? You mean IAG? Yes I see IAG do order A320neo's as well.
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keesje
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Re: Air France - KLM no 737 MAX / A320 NEO orders

Tue Jan 09, 2018 3:57 pm

mercure1 wrote:
Company for several years said decision due no earlier than 2018. Bulk of replacements are not need till mid 2020s.

http://aviationweek.com/commercial-avia ... t-decision


Many AF A320 move towards 25-30 years old & will get stored / scrapped in the next 7 yrs. Without replacements? Not sure.

KLM communicate that they are not actively sourcing. We have seen that before, it doesn't mean much. Boeing might get pro-active before KLM starts uploading A321NEO scenarios in their network simulations & Peter H. is gone.

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Re: Air France - KLM no 737 MAX / A320 NEO orders

Tue Jan 09, 2018 4:19 pm

Doesnt Transavia have 737-800s on order still or did they get them all? They placed an order in 2015.
 
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Re: Air France - KLM no 737 MAX / A320 NEO orders

Tue Jan 09, 2018 4:23 pm

keesje wrote:

KLM communicate that they are not actively sourcing. We have seen that before, it doesn't mean much. Boeing might get pro-active before KLM starts uploading A321NEO scenarios in their network simulations


The opposite may be true. KLM waiting on any order decisions opens up a 737-10 vs A321neo competition. While they may bave been swayed to the A321 by the extra seats over the 737-9, the 737-10 may change the equation.
 
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keesje
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Re: Air France - KLM no 737 MAX / A320 NEO orders

Tue Jan 09, 2018 4:29 pm

Newbiepilot wrote:
keesje wrote:

KLM communicate that they are not actively sourcing. We have seen that before, it doesn't mean much. Boeing might get pro-active before KLM starts uploading A321NEO scenarios in their network simulations


The opposite may be true. KLM waiting on any order decisions opens up a 737-10 vs A321neo competition. While they may bave been swayed to the A321 by the extra seats over the 737-9, the 737-10 may change the equation.


Yes, KLM has bought 737s since the mid eighties and has been building / updating its MRO 737 infrastructure since then, together with Boeing & GE.. on the other hand their EMEA destinations, cargo business & fleet commonality play a role too. In the past A310s/767s were put to good use for medium segments. I'm sure a NMA like aircraft would be looked at carefully.
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Re: Air France - KLM no 737 MAX / A320 NEO orders

Tue Jan 09, 2018 4:42 pm

hooverman wrote:
KLM has always been late with ordering new aircraft. They will order the MAX no doubt.
According to https://www.luchtvaartnieuws.nl/nieuws/categorie/2/airlines/klm-vervanger-boeing-737-vloot-nog-niet-in-beeld article(dutch only) a few days ago KLM boss Pieter Elbers says they are not thinking of a 737 replacement yet, which I think is highly unlikely.

The article mentions KLM is not looking at replacement of the 737 fleet, but transavia is looking at the MAX.
Newbiepilot wrote:
keesje wrote:

KLM communicate that they are not actively sourcing. We have seen that before, it doesn't mean much. Boeing might get pro-active before KLM starts uploading A321NEO scenarios in their network simulations


The opposite may be true. KLM waiting on any order decisions opens up a 737-10 vs A321neo competition. While they may bave been swayed to the A321 by the extra seats over the 737-9, the 737-10 may change the equation.

:checkmark: I'm pretty sure the 737-10 is the aircraft KL wants. Most of the KL 737 flights are about 1-2 hours, this is where the A321neo doesn't have much of an advantage over the 737-10 (if any).

As mentioned by others, the KL 737NGs are still pretty young, 2/3 of the fleet is around 10 years old or younger. And fuel prices remain low. The oldest batch of 17 aircraft were delivered between 1999 and 2001, these can last till the middle of next decade. Enough time left to decide.

And while KLM may not consider replacing the whole 737 fleet yet, they may very well look at adding some 737MAX through leasing companies. Same as with the 787 deliveries, first 10 or so are leased.
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Re: Air France - KLM no 737 MAX / A320 NEO orders

Tue Jan 09, 2018 4:55 pm

I could see a Transavia 737MAX order coming. Havent the recent deliveries been going to Transavia France? Growth may be on the Transavia side rather than Air france side

http://www.airfranceklm.com/en/news/tra ... s-10-years
 
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Re: Air France - KLM no 737 MAX / A320 NEO orders

Tue Jan 09, 2018 5:12 pm

I agree with previous posters that for a large order, slots will be found/created. I just saw that Tianjin is increasing A320 production to six per month. I expect Mobile and Hamburg to accelerate. I do not know why TLS isn't producing A321s. If the need is for a new building, than build it! A small expansion would meet AF/KLM's needs.

JetBuddy wrote:
mercure1 wrote:
Company for several years said decision due no earlier than 2018. Bulk of replacements are not need till mid 2020s.

http://aviationweek.com/commercial-avia ... t-decision


Then we might see an order this year. Mid 2020s seem like a reasonable timeframe to get new 737s or A320s delivered, even with the massive backlogs.

Ordering ahead of time would allow AF/KLM to negotiate exceptional pricing.

Lightsaber
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Re: Air France - KLM no 737 MAX / A320 NEO orders

Tue Jan 09, 2018 5:40 pm

Are many airlines deferring deliveries of A32XNEOs and 737MAX? I know GA is deferring deliveries of their 737MAXs. Not sure if others find themselves in the same situation. These deferrals always allow manufacturers to try to accomodate the needs of airlines that need faster deliveries.
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Re: Air France - KLM no 737 MAX / A320 NEO orders

Tue Jan 09, 2018 6:37 pm

keesje wrote:
mercure1 wrote:
Company for several years said decision due no earlier than 2018. Bulk of replacements are not need till mid 2020s.

http://aviationweek.com/commercial-avia ... t-decision


Many AF A320 move towards 25-30 years old & will get stored / scrapped in the next 7 yrs. Without replacements? Not sure.


Only two are that old, MSN237 and 287, F-GHQM and F-GKXA respectively, and they are stored. The next oldest is MSN1502, F-GKXC delivered in July 2001.
 
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Re: Air France - KLM no 737 MAX / A320 NEO orders

Tue Jan 09, 2018 6:43 pm

lightsaber wrote:
I agree with previous posters that for a large order, slots will be found/created. I just saw that Tianjin is increasing A320 production to six per month. I expect Mobile and Hamburg to accelerate. I do not know why TLS isn't producing A321s. If the need is for a new building, than build it! A small expansion would meet AF/KLM's needs.

JetBuddy wrote:
mercure1 wrote:
Company for several years said decision due no earlier than 2018. Bulk of replacements are not need till mid 2020s.

http://aviationweek.com/commercial-avia ... t-decision


Then we might see an order this year. Mid 2020s seem like a reasonable timeframe to get new 737s or A320s delivered, even with the massive backlogs.

Ordering ahead of time would allow AF/KLM to negotiate exceptional pricing.

Lightsaber


TLS can only produce A320. It is the oldest A320 family FAL. The FAL in XFW was build to accommodate all frames, from A318 to A321. TSN and BFM are build according to the XFW standard.
 
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Re: Air France - KLM no 737 MAX / A320 NEO orders

Tue Jan 09, 2018 7:01 pm

Like explained much of the AF Airbii narrowbody fleet is not as old as many think. Also many of the oldest frames are leased, so virtually every remaining example is from mid-2000s through 2010s. Even brand new A320CEO frames arrived in the fleet during 2017.
 
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Re: Air France - KLM no 737 MAX / A320 NEO orders

Tue Jan 09, 2018 7:27 pm

Rumor at KLM has is that from around 2020 the -700s will leave the fleet and that they may be replaced by the E195E2. Just a little lower seatcount, but operated under the lower cost Cityhopper brand. This would of course first have to go by the KLM pilot union VNV.
 
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Re: Air France - KLM no 737 MAX / A320 NEO orders

Tue Jan 09, 2018 8:17 pm

I think it was last week that KLM struck a deal with one of the cabin crew unions, this prevented a strike from another cabin crew union. One of the agreements is that on all 737 flights KLM will fly with four cabin crew. That's very unfavorable for the 737-700. I don't know with how many crew KLM Cityhopper flies on the E195. But possibly this contributes to a dicision to replace 737-700s with E195 (E2) instead of 737-7MAX. But this decision is a couple of years out.
 
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Re: Air France - KLM no 737 MAX / A320 NEO orders

Tue Jan 09, 2018 8:28 pm

AF is a good candidate for the Cseries with all those A318 and A319 that eventually needs to be replaced. Maybe AF is the undisclosed customer for 31 Cseries on firm order + 31 options?

I think KLM is the only EU-airline that operates the 737-900, and could possibly order the MAX. There are not that many EU-airlines with MAX orders. A quick look at the lists on Boeing's website reveals, Iceland Air (16), Norwegian (110), TUI (70), Primera Air (6), Blue Air (8), Air Europa (20) and Ryanair (110). Total orders 270 (+ leasing companies).
Last edited by reidar76 on Tue Jan 09, 2018 8:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
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Re: Air France - KLM no 737 MAX / A320 NEO orders

Tue Jan 09, 2018 8:29 pm

keesje wrote:
mercure1 wrote:
Company for several years said decision due no earlier than 2018. Bulk of replacements are not need till mid 2020s.

http://aviationweek.com/commercial-avia ... t-decision


Many AF A320 move towards 25-30 years old & will get stored / scrapped in the next 7 yrs. Without replacements? Not sure.

KLM communicate that they are not actively sourcing. We have seen that before, it doesn't mean much. Boeing might get pro-active before KLM starts uploading A321NEO scenarios in their network simulations & Peter H. is gone.

Image


Wrong. No 25/30 years old A320 in AF’s fleet. They have all been replaced already.
AF operates today a fleet of 35 A320 and the oldest one is F-GKXC, delivered in 2001. Not a « young » airplane but 17 y.o is not that much...
 
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Re: Air France - KLM no 737 MAX / A320 NEO orders

Tue Jan 09, 2018 9:10 pm

reidar76 wrote:
AF is a good candidate for the Cseries with all those A318 and A319 that eventually needs to be replaced. Maybe AF is the undisclosed customer for 31 Cseries on firm order + 31 options?

I think KLM is the only EU-airline that operates the 737-900, and could possibly order the MAX. There are not that many EU-airlines with MAX orders. A quick look at the lists on Boeing's website reveals, Iceland Air (16), Norwegian (110), TUI (70), Primera Air (6), Blue Air (8), Air Europa (20) and Ryanair (110). Total orders 270 (+ leasing companies).


Doesn't LOT have MAX on order as well?
 
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Re: Air France - KLM no 737 MAX / A320 NEO orders

Tue Jan 09, 2018 9:15 pm

Bostrom wrote:
reidar76 wrote:
AF is a good candidate for the Cseries with all those A318 and A319 that eventually needs to be replaced. Maybe AF is the undisclosed customer for 31 Cseries on firm order + 31 options?

I think KLM is the only EU-airline that operates the 737-900, and could possibly order the MAX. There are not that many EU-airlines with MAX orders. A quick look at the lists on Boeing's website reveals, Iceland Air (16), Norwegian (110), TUI (70), Primera Air (6), Blue Air (8), Air Europa (20) and Ryanair (110). Total orders 270 (+ leasing companies).


Doesn't LOT have MAX on order as well?


And are currently operating 2 aircraft.
 
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Re: Air France - KLM no 737 MAX / A320 NEO orders

Tue Jan 09, 2018 9:23 pm

ikolkyo wrote:
Bostrom wrote:
Doesn't LOT have MAX on order as well?


And are currently operating 2 aircraft.


Off topic, but according to http://www.boeing.com/commercial/, see orders and deliveries, filter by model, LOT doesn't have the MAX on order. They must have the aircraft on an operating lease.
Last edited by reidar76 on Tue Jan 09, 2018 9:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
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keesje
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Re: Air France - KLM no 737 MAX / A320 NEO orders

Tue Jan 09, 2018 9:23 pm

At AF most NB aircraft are phased out before 20 yrs of use.

More than half the A319 and A321 fleets are between 15-20 years old.
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
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Re: Air France - KLM no 737 MAX / A320 NEO orders

Tue Jan 09, 2018 9:23 pm

keesje wrote:
Air France - KLM group have hundreds of A320CEO / 737NG series flying around.
:point: NEO & MAX seem sold sold out for the next 6 years, so AF/KL will probably shrink
their narrowbody fleets or buy used CEO/NG frames.

There are other options besides Airbus and Boeing. Maybe we'll see a major order for the CSeries and/or E2 jets?
 
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Re: Air France - KLM no 737 MAX / A320 NEO orders

Tue Jan 09, 2018 9:27 pm

reidar76 wrote:
ikolkyo wrote:
Bostrom wrote:
Doesn't LOT have MAX on order as well?


And are currently operating 2 aircraft.


Off topic, but according to http://www.boeing.com/commercial/, see orders and deliveries, filter by model, LOT doesn't have the MAX on order. They must have the aircraft on an operating lease.


Yes, they ordered the aircraft through a leasing company.
 
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Re: Air France - KLM no 737 MAX / A320 NEO orders

Tue Jan 09, 2018 10:56 pm

Hey guys,
I see a neo order for Air France, A320neos, A321neos and A321LRs. I think that the LRs would be useful for Africa and the Middle East.
I see a MAX order for KLM, focused mainly on the -10 but with some -8s and perhaps even a few -7s.
I see both airlines eventually operating CSeries. HOP! and Cityhopper may be the operators however of the CSeries on behalf of the parent airlines.
I see Transavia operating MAXs, mainly -8s and some -10s.
Cheers,
Bunumuring
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Re: Air France - KLM no 737 MAX / A320 NEO orders

Tue Jan 09, 2018 10:58 pm

mjoelnir wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
I agree with previous posters that for a large order, slots will be found/created. I just saw that Tianjin is increasing A320 production to six per month. I expect Mobile and Hamburg to accelerate. I do not know why TLS isn't producing A321s. If the need is for a new building, than build it! A small expansion would meet AF/KLM's needs.

JetBuddy wrote:

Then we might see an order this year. Mid 2020s seem like a reasonable timeframe to get new 737s or A320s delivered, even with the massive backlogs.

Ordering ahead of time would allow AF/KLM to negotiate exceptional pricing.

Lightsaber


TLS can only produce A320. It is the oldest A320 family FAL. The FAL in XFW was build to accommodate all frames, from A318 to A321. TSN and BFM are build according to the XFW standard.

But why? Is it column distances? Eventually, XFW will be expanded and that expansion should accommodate new production. I believe we will see France making A321s too. When?

If there are more A320s to be made in France, it would be silly not to be able to produce more A321s. For this thread, I think a ramp in production would be likely.

Lightsaber
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Re: Air France - KLM no 737 MAX / A320 NEO orders

Tue Jan 09, 2018 11:03 pm

frigatebird wrote:
I'm pretty sure the 737-10 is the aircraft KL wants. Most of the KL 737 flights are about 1-2 hours, this is where the A321neo doesn't have much of an advantage over the 737-10 (if any).
[/quote]

KLM will look at the737-10, but it's not their holy grail. In their current fleet of 50 737NG's only 5 of them are 737-900 (non-ER). And they have a lot of smaller 737-700 (18). KLM will order the MAX, but The first will go to Transavia (just like de NG's). Transavia has some long flights where the MAX has an advantage over the NG.

It will be interesting what KLM will choose as a replacement for the 737-700. It fills the gap between the E190 and the 737-800.
 
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Re: Air France - KLM no 737 MAX / A320 NEO orders

Wed Jan 10, 2018 12:03 am

lightsaber wrote:
mjoelnir wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
I agree with previous posters that for a large order, slots will be found/created. I just saw that Tianjin is increasing A320 production to six per month. I expect Mobile and Hamburg to accelerate. I do not know why TLS isn't producing A321s. If the need is for a new building, than build it! A small expansion would meet AF/KLM's needs.


Ordering ahead of time would allow AF/KLM to negotiate exceptional pricing.

Lightsaber


TLS can only produce A320. It is the oldest A320 family FAL. The FAL in XFW was build to accommodate all frames, from A318 to A321. TSN and BFM are build according to the XFW standard.

But why? Is it column distances? Eventually, XFW will be expanded and that expansion should accommodate new production. I believe we will see France making A321s too. When?

If there are more A320s to be made in France, it would be silly not to be able to produce more A321s. For this thread, I think a ramp in production would be likely.

Lightsaber


The TLS line is build non adjustable, only A320. The FAL would have to be changed to the XFW system and there is insufficient space in the current building. So TLS would have to put up a new line in a new or bigger building.
What is the obsession with TLS building A321?
Airbus will be able to do 32 A321 in XFW and 4 each in BFM and TSN, that makes 40 A321 possible against 16 A320 in TLS. That means over 70% of the production can be A321. TSN will move to rate 5 in this year and rate 6 next year. We can expect the rate to go up in BFM too, I expect rate 8 there by 2020.
 
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keesje
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Re: Air France - KLM no 737 MAX / A320 NEO orders

Wed Jan 10, 2018 12:32 am

Maybe, KLM has specific network circumstances that, contrary to its neighbors, leads to a unique set of requirements favoring the qualities 737-10 has over the A321NEO, maybe not..

With clusters of renewal activity being performed, Elbers says there will be a “natural moment in the next couple of years” when KLM will consider its narrowbody modernisation options.

The carrier has a current fleet of 50 737NGs, with Fleets Analyzer showing the most elderly of these as being 18 years old. A replacement activity could potentially be combined with the needs of the airline’s Transavia budget unit, which today operates 44 of the type.

“We will review in the not too distant future our medium-haul network,” Elbers says. “We don’t need something tomorrow, because some of our 737s are still relatively young. What is important is that we do further work on what is the exact schedule, and at what point do we start. We’ll take some time.”


https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/analysis-klm-chief-hails-effect-of-fleet-transforma-441860/
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Re: Air France - KLM no 737 MAX / A320 NEO orders

Wed Jan 10, 2018 3:11 am

I have a feeling that KLM wont/doesnt A321LR in their route planning, all routes the A321 would do can be done by the MAX thus eliminating the need to switch over to the A320 series.

But hey, what do I know about running an airline?
 
Jetty
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Re: Air France - KLM no 737 MAX / A320 NEO orders

Wed Jan 10, 2018 8:18 am

Maybe KL wants to know what happens at AMS, which is slot constrained for the first time since I can remember. The slot cap for after 2020 is going to be decided sometime soon. Scenario’s:

- No growth: need for higher capacity planes;
- Slight increase of the slot cap: quick deliveries to occupy the extra slots ASAP (otherwise they will be gone);
- Large increase of the slot cap: moderate growth on the long term with little urgency for higher capacity planes.

Note the cap is purely political and thus hard to foresee what it will become.
 
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Re: Air France - KLM no 737 MAX / A320 NEO orders

Wed Jan 10, 2018 9:54 am

bunumuring wrote:
Hey guys,
I see a neo order for Air France, A320neos, A321neos and A321LRs. I think that the LRs would be useful for Africa and the Middle East.
I see a MAX order for KLM, focused mainly on the -10 but with some -8s and perhaps even a few -7s.
I see both airlines eventually operating CSeries. HOP! and Cityhopper may be the operators however of the CSeries on behalf of the parent airlines.
I see Transavia operating MAXs, mainly -8s and some -10s.
Cheers,
Bunumuring

I don`t think that KLM will operate CSeries aircrafts at the same time that they are operating E190. I am hoping that they will because I think that the livery would look great. I believe that it is much more likely to see HOP! operate CSeries aircraft since AF operate A318/A319, but an order would probably not be made for some years.
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seahawk
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Joined: Fri May 27, 2005 1:29 am

Re: Air France - KLM no 737 MAX / A320 NEO orders

Wed Jan 10, 2018 10:28 am

It is still a strange idea that one group could order 2 types of aircraft with a clear division on who operates which type.
 
Egerton
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Re: Air France - KLM no 737 MAX / A320 NEO orders

Wed Jan 10, 2018 10:51 am

seahawk wrote:
It is still a strange idea that one group could order 2 types of aircraft with a clear division on who operates which type.


Agreed. Very odd. And to think of baggage & cargo being hand loaded when the A32x can take it in containers seems pre-historic.
 
Newbiepilot
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Re: Air France - KLM no 737 MAX / A320 NEO orders

Wed Jan 10, 2018 12:30 pm

keesje wrote:
Maybe, KLM has specific network circumstances that, contrary to its neighbors, leads to a unique set of requirements favoring the qualities 737-10 has over the A321NEO, maybe not..
]


TUI ordered the 737-10.

I see orders for A320neos or 737-8s as more likely than A321neos for AF/KL. Interesting fact, Finnair, Turkish and Wow are the only three A320neo family operators who operate both types who have more A321s than A320s.
 
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seahawk
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Re: Air France - KLM no 737 MAX / A320 NEO orders

Wed Jan 10, 2018 12:57 pm

Egerton wrote:
seahawk wrote:
It is still a strange idea that one group could order 2 types of aircraft with a clear division on who operates which type.


Agreed. Very odd. And to think of baggage & cargo being hand loaded when the A32x can take it in containers seems pre-historic.


I would get it if they order both types based on mission profiles, with 737s for shorter routes and A320 for longer or routes with clear advantages for cargo containers. But a solution where the French part flies A320s and the Dutch part flies 737s would just show how dysfunctional this marriage is. I think it would be a bad sign for the future of that group.
 
Jerry123
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Re: Air France - KLM no 737 MAX / A320 NEO orders

Wed Jan 10, 2018 1:11 pm

seahawk wrote:
It is still a strange idea that one group could order 2 types of aircraft with a clear division on who operates which type.

Because they are both unique companies and yes they are one company but operationally they are for the most part 2 different airlines. KLM obviously likes Boeing and has a good partnership with them. Why change it? Also if they did convert to Airbus it would look like Air France pressurised them to do so.
From KLMs point of view what can Airbus offer it that Boeing can't? Nothing in my opionion.
 
Newbiepilot
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Re: Air France - KLM no 737 MAX / A320 NEO orders

Wed Jan 10, 2018 1:42 pm

seahawk wrote:
Egerton wrote:
seahawk wrote:
It is still a strange idea that one group could order 2 types of aircraft with a clear division on who operates which type.


Agreed. Very odd. And to think of baggage & cargo being hand loaded when the A32x can take it in containers seems pre-historic.


I would get it if they order both types based on mission profiles, with 737s for shorter routes and A320 for longer or routes with clear advantages for cargo containers. But a solution where the French part flies A320s and the Dutch part flies 737s would just show how dysfunctional this marriage is. I think it would be a bad sign for the future of that group.


Transavia France is where the recent growth is and that has all been 737-800s, Orly is 737 whereas CDG is A320. That is a bit unusual
 
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keesje
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Re: Air France - KLM no 737 MAX / A320 NEO orders

Wed Jan 10, 2018 1:52 pm

Jerry123 wrote:
seahawk wrote:
It is still a strange idea that one group could order 2 types of aircraft with a clear division on who operates which type.

Because they are both unique companies and yes they are one company but operationally they are for the most part 2 different airlines. KLM obviously likes Boeing and has a good partnership with them. Why change it? Also if they did convert to Airbus it would look like Air France pressurised them to do so.
From KLMs point of view what can Airbus offer it that Boeing can't? Nothing in my opionion.


Well, that's the thing. There is an aircraft that everybody seems to prefer but doesn't come from Seattle.
Many 737 operators took a look & decided they wanted it, overruling fleet commonality.

Image
Last edited by keesje on Wed Jan 10, 2018 2:15 pm, edited 2 times in total.
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
A388
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Re: Air France - KLM no 737 MAX / A320 NEO orders

Wed Jan 10, 2018 2:06 pm

The KL and AF narrowbody fleets are big enough to have them operate Boeing and Airbus narrowbody aircraft. No need to streamline this to one aircraft manufacturer as that adds unnecessary costs to these airlines.

A388
 
Jerry123
Posts: 303
Joined: Sat Dec 03, 2016 9:58 pm

Re: Air France - KLM no 737 MAX / A320 NEO orders

Wed Jan 10, 2018 3:56 pm

keesje wrote:
Jerry123 wrote:
seahawk wrote:
It is still a strange idea that one group could order 2 types of aircraft with a clear division on who operates which type.

Because they are both unique companies and yes they are one company but operationally they are for the most part 2 different airlines. KLM obviously likes Boeing and has a good partnership with them. Why change it? Also if they did convert to Airbus it would look like Air France pressurised them to do so.
From KLMs point of view what can Airbus offer it that Boeing can't? Nothing in my opionion.


Well, that's the thing. There is an aircraft that everybody seems to prefer but doesn't come from Seattle.
Many 737 operators took a look & decided they wanted it, overruling fleet commonality.

Image

But KLM doesn't need the A321 or use an aircraft of that size and many of those airlines are replacing 757s because Boeing didn't do a replacement for. If you look at KLMs fleet they have roughly 18 737 700s which the MAX 7 can replace 27 738s which the MAX 8 can replace and 5 739s which they can replace with the MAX 8 or 9. That way KLM won't have to go through converting their pilots and crews to Airbus. I'd be surprised if they go for Airbus.
 
mig17
Posts: 107
Joined: Thu Aug 11, 2016 8:34 am

Re: Air France - KLM no 737 MAX / A320 NEO orders

Wed Jan 10, 2018 7:46 pm

A388 wrote:
The KL and AF narrowbody fleets are big enough to have them operate Boeing and Airbus narrowbody aircraft. No need to streamline this to one aircraft manufacturer as that adds unnecessary costs to these airlines.

A388

Yes and no. AF-KLM including Transavia and Transavia Fr "only" have 232 aircraft of A320/737 families. 82 of those are A318, A319 or 737-700, among which some may be better replaced by E-jets both AF and KL uses as regional than by MAX/NEO. So the fleet to be replaced by NEO/MAX is not so big after all. From a purshasing point of view it would make sence to choose only one type here. But not what is going to happen.

I could see an order of 50 (+20 options) A320/321 NEO between now and end of 2019, all for AF (& Joon). While Transavia Fr, continues to grow with used 737-8. KLM and Transavia keeping steady a few more years until an order of 80 (+40 options) 737MAX8 (maybe including MAX9) comes to equiped both Transavias and KLM.
 
CFRPwingALbody
Posts: 184
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Re: Air France - KLM no 737 MAX / A320 NEO orders

Thu Jan 11, 2018 1:41 pm

I could see KLM ordering A321LR with CFM LEAP engines.
Does someone know how many airplanes KLM has with engines not provided by GE or CFM?
AFAIK only the A350's that could come and some old odd B747 converted freighter.

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