Jerry123
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Re: Air France - KLM no 737 MAX / A320 NEO orders

Thu Jan 11, 2018 3:12 pm

CFRPwingALbody wrote:
I could see KLM ordering A321LR with CFM LEAP engines.
Does someone know how many airplanes KLM has with engines not provided by GE or CFM?
AFAIK only the A350's that could come and some old odd B747 converted freighter.

Why would KLM need the Longe range version of the A321? Their long haul is wide body, of which they have A350s on order and 787 9s and 10s on order. I believe eventually they'll put in an order for the MAX for their European ops.
 
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Re: Air France - KLM no 737 MAX / A320 NEO orders

Thu Jan 11, 2018 3:30 pm

Tobsv146 wrote:
. I believe that it is much more likely to see HOP! operate CSeries aircraft since AF operate A318/A319, but an order would probably not be made for some years.


Dont forget the issue with scope clause. Currently Hop cant fly aircraft above 100 seats
 
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PHBVF
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Re: Air France - KLM no 737 MAX / A320 NEO orders

Thu Jan 11, 2018 3:41 pm

I think KLM has no interest in the A321LR, because of slot constraints at AMS. I just don't see them using such a small aircraft on such a long flight with the few valuable slots at Amsterdam disappearing rather quick. They would probably rather use these on more profitable widebody flights, or even a high yielding shorthaul flight.
As for NEO vs. MAX, I am dead certain AF will go for the NEO and KLM for the MAX.

marcelh wrote:
In their current fleet of 50 737NG's only 5 of them are 737-900 (non-ER).
It will be interesting what KLM will choose as a replacement for the 737-700. It fills the gap between the E190 and the 737-800.

The -900s are not really of any added value, because they are non -ER frames and thus exit limited to 188 seats (vs. 186 on their -800s)
The MAX10 will be of added value for sure, given it can seat more passengers.
Given that the main edge of the 321NEO over the MAX10 occurs at long range, short runways or otherwise performance restricted fields, this has no added value for KLM.
The longest route KLM 737s fly is 1790nm to TLV, which has a 3657m long runway.
With the MAX 10 range at 3210nm, this should offer no problem.

Furthermore AFKL ordering from both manufacturers brings other advantages:
- Better negotiating position on future deals
- Lower pilot retraining costs
- More simultaneous delivery slots

Regarding the -700s. KLM has just started negotiations with pilot union VNV for a new collaborative labour agreement. If they can get VNV to agree transferring more flights to KLM Cityhopper (as in replacing -700s to the E195E2) I think the -700 replacement has been sealed. If they are unable to do so, I think KLM will be one of the few - 7 MAX operators.
I could definitely see Air France going for the CSeries, as they have a relatively large A318/A319 fleet and if I am not mistaken Airbus will be actively helping BBD by marketing the CSeries to their customers (and they realize the A319NEO is dead)
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seahawk
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Re: Air France - KLM no 737 MAX / A320 NEO orders

Thu Jan 11, 2018 3:46 pm

So they end up with E195E2, CSeries, 737MAX and A320NEO... that is borderline insane for the size of the combined fleet.
 
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Re: Air France - KLM no 737 MAX / A320 NEO orders

Thu Jan 11, 2018 3:59 pm

seahawk wrote:
So they end up with E195E2, CSeries, 737MAX and A320NEO... that is borderline insane for the size of the combined fleet.
It only adds one type (for commonality purposes) to the current fleet.
Though HOP! also operates E-Jets, so they could go down the E2 road too. (Though I do not think AF unions would allow them to be operated by HOP!)

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FlyRow
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Re: Air France - KLM no 737 MAX / A320 NEO orders

Thu Jan 11, 2018 4:36 pm

Jerry123 wrote:
keesje wrote:
Jerry123 wrote:

But KLM doesn't need the A321 or use an aircraft of that size and many of those airlines are replacing 757s because Boeing didn't do a replacement for. If you look at KLMs fleet they have roughly 18 737 700s which the MAX 7 can replace 27 738s which the MAX 8 can replace and 5 739s which they can replace with the MAX 8 or 9. That way KLM won't have to go through converting their pilots and crews to Airbus. I'd be surprised if they go for Airbus.


Yes and no. A lot of US airlines use it as a 757 replacement.

It's also a damm good plane if you want to open new cross-atlantic or african markets at a lower cost base. The size of te plane can also be used for shorter EU-routes (1 long 1 short flight a day) boosting efficency. This last point might give it the edge for KLM.
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Re: Air France - KLM no 737 MAX / A320 NEO orders

Thu Jan 11, 2018 4:53 pm

PHBVF wrote:
seahawk wrote:
So they end up with E195E2, CSeries, 737MAX and A320NEO... that is borderline insane for the size of the combined fleet.
It only adds one type (for commonality purposes) to the current fleet.
Though HOP! also operates E-Jets, so they could go down the E2 road too. (Though I do not think AF unions would allow them to be operated by HOP!)

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But the current fleet is the result of pre-merger fleet planning. The goal for the future should be more efficiency and more flexibility.
 
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Jayafe
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Re: Air France - KLM no 737 MAX / A320 NEO orders

Thu Jan 11, 2018 5:03 pm

seahawk wrote:
But the current fleet is the result of pre-merger fleet planning. The goal for the future should be more efficiency and more flexibility.


Unions (and some stakeholders) disagree.
 
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Re: Air France - KLM no 737 MAX / A320 NEO orders

Thu Jan 11, 2018 5:22 pm

seahawk wrote:
But the current fleet is the result of pre-merger fleet planning. The goal for the future should be more efficiency and more flexibility.


Air France and KLM do not share their operations, nor will they anytime soon. Pilots, cabin crew, ground staff are in no way integrated. So there is no flexibility to be gained.
Maintenance wise KLM E&M and AFI will still (for third parties) support both the NEO and MAX MRO.

Technically I am not sure you could even call them merged as they are separate entities within the Air France - KLM Group... Though that is a different discussion
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mig17
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Re: Air France - KLM no 737 MAX / A320 NEO orders

Thu Jan 11, 2018 6:36 pm

In the end, only 3 possible outcomes :
- AF, KLM, Joon, Transavia & Transavia fr goes all A320/A321 neo.
- AF, KLM, Joon, Transavia & Transavia fr goes all 737 8/9/10 max.
- AF & Joon goes A320/A321 neo while KLM & both Transavias goes 737 8/9 max.

1 or 3 could happen, 2 is more improbable.
 
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Re: Air France - KLM no 737 MAX / A320 NEO orders

Thu Jan 11, 2018 6:40 pm

mig17 wrote:
In the end, only 3 possible outcomes :
- AF, KLM, Joon, Transavia & Transavia fr goes all A320/A321 neo.
- AF, KLM, Joon, Transavia & Transavia fr goes all 737 8/9/10 max.
- AF & Joon goes A320/A321 neo while KLM & both Transavias goes 737 8/9 max.

1 or 3 could happen, 2 is more improbable.


Option 3 is the most likely outcome if you exchange the 737 8/9Max to 737-8/10Max, I see no room for the 737-9Max or the 737-7Max for that matter.
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Re: Air France - KLM no 737 MAX / A320 NEO orders

Thu Jan 11, 2018 6:48 pm

I would love to see AF operating the 737Max :)
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Re: Air France - KLM no 737 MAX / A320 NEO orders

Thu Jan 11, 2018 6:50 pm

A388 wrote:
The KL and AF narrowbody fleets are big enough to have them operate Boeing and Airbus narrowbody aircraft. No need to streamline this to one aircraft manufacturer as that adds unnecessary costs to these airlines.

A388


If anything it should do the opposite.
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Re: Air France - KLM no 737 MAX / A320 NEO orders

Thu Jan 11, 2018 7:23 pm

Image

One can always dream :airplane:
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MaxiAir
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Re: Air France - KLM no 737 MAX / A320 NEO orders

Thu Jan 11, 2018 7:50 pm

Same goes for the other option.

Does anyone have a rendering of the A320 family in the new KLM livery?

Edit: Was just about to do a rendering myself, when I came across this flightsim model:

Looks awesome! Imagine that with huge NEO engines :bigthumbsup:

Image
Source: http://jardesign.org/forum/viewtopic.php?id=2155
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Re: Air France - KLM no 737 MAX / A320 NEO orders

Thu Jan 11, 2018 8:57 pm

Couldn't help myself :)
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Image
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Re: Air France - KLM no 737 MAX / A320 NEO orders

Thu Jan 11, 2018 9:22 pm

Kinda dig the AF Max 10.
 
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keesje
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Re: Air France - KLM no 737 MAX / A320 NEO orders

Fri Jan 12, 2018 12:20 pm

In terms of capacity, range the 737-10 would probably ok for KLM. Distances are limitted to 4-5hrs and long cool runways everywhere. It would have good commonality with the existing fleets. Cargo is big & important though. It was the reason to replace 767 fleet by A332's once.

Most competitors and partners use AKH containers & pallets. Over the next 20 years the Boeing NMA will probably have the capability too.

Is it real smart to close your eyes for this, investing in a new series for the longer term? Or are you putting yourself in a compatitive disadvantage from day 1? If the 737-10 could carry pallets that would be great..

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Re: Air France - KLM no 737 MAX / A320 NEO orders

Fri Jan 12, 2018 12:34 pm

Could we maybe avoid another pointless A vs B discussion. The fascinating point in the topic is that the ops by AF and KLM are very similar when it comes to routes and so on, yet people expect them to buy different single aisle planes for each hub. I seriously can not see any reasonable way in which you could study different planes in your network and come up with completely opposite results for AF and KLM when it comes to single aisle planes.
 
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Re: Air France - KLM no 737 MAX / A320 NEO orders

Fri Jan 12, 2018 1:03 pm

If I managed the group I'd prefer a single type across the board. But the most likely would be CSeries/A320neo for AF and 737 MAX for KL and Transavia. Maybe some CSeries for KL as well.
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Re: Air France - KLM no 737 MAX / A320 NEO orders

Fri Jan 12, 2018 1:04 pm

If my suspicion is true and KLM(/AF) Maintainance Schiphol is a Boeing GE maintenance hub; I think E-195 E2 is very unlikely. The Dutch government replaced their Fokker 70 state plane with a BBJ, possibly this is a 7MAX. Airbus complained that Boeing won the tender (with most likely a higher price). But KLM pilots operate the state plane, since KLM operates 737s as narrow bodies (and E-Jets but those can't fly to the ABC- (BES-)islands), the government had no other choice then Boeing BBJ. (the plane is stil on order)

I agree with Keesje that freight containerization on narrow bodies could be required. I think this could be demanded by the platform operators union (union for the workers that load the planes with freight). The working conditions for bulk loading cargo on narrowbodies are horrible.
I also think freight loading is slowing down operations at Schiphol. Operators are manipulating the cargo twice, first to load/unload the bagage into transport cars, and next from the transport cars into the plane or onto the bagage pickup system. With containers the bagage only has to be picked up once.
But AKH containers require more volume and structure inside the plane so they are heavier and consume more fuel. I expect KLM management will keep prefering bulk cargo, unless the unions demand container handeling.
 
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Re: Air France - KLM no 737 MAX / A320 NEO orders

Fri Jan 12, 2018 1:08 pm

seahawk wrote:
Could we maybe avoid another pointless A vs B discussion. The fascinating point in the topic is that the ops by AF and KLM are very similar when it comes to routes and so on, yet people expect them to buy different single aisle planes for each hub. I seriously can not see any reasonable way in which you could study different planes in your network and come up with completely opposite results for AF and KLM when it comes to single aisle planes.


I think it is completely open what narrow body frames both airlines will buy in the future. Former preferences have often no influence on later investment plans. it may well be that KLM will buy 737 and AF A320 family aircraft, but I can also see both going for Airbus in the future and Transavia does not need to make the move with KLM. A point like containers is big thing in Europe at airlines offering a full service, it is much less a point for European ULCC or LCC.
 
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Re: Air France - KLM no 737 MAX / A320 NEO orders

Fri Jan 12, 2018 1:28 pm

seahawk wrote:
I seriously can not see any reasonable way in which you could study different planes in your network and come up with completely opposite results for AF and KLM when it comes to single aisle planes.


Then you are clearly missing the estrategic point of achieving exactly that. Having 2 different airlines, with 2 different structures and 2 different materials that guarantee you isolation between them protecting their own assets. As long as both make money, that's a reason a good as any other.
 
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Re: Air France - KLM no 737 MAX / A320 NEO orders

Fri Jan 12, 2018 1:34 pm

Jayafe wrote:
seahawk wrote:
I seriously can not see any reasonable way in which you could study different planes in your network and come up with completely opposite results for AF and KLM when it comes to single aisle planes.


Then you are clearly missing the estrategic point of achieving exactly that. Having 2 different airlines, with 2 different structures and 2 different materials that guarantee you isolation between them protecting their own assets. As long as both make money, that's a reason a good as any other.


Not if you could make more money if they would share a common fleet.
 
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Re: Air France - KLM no 737 MAX / A320 NEO orders

Fri Jan 12, 2018 1:42 pm

CFRPwingALbody wrote:
The Dutch government replaced their Fokker 70 state plane with a BBJ, possibly this is a 7MAX.

It's a BBJ1, based on a 737-700.

I'm not totally ruling out the A32x for KL, but I certainly believe KL will keep at least their newest (2008-2011) 737-800 for quite a long while, hence the decision to acquire the Boeing BBJ as government aircraft. If KL goes for the A32x, the price needs to be extremely good, good enough to warrant KL operating both Boeing and Airbus narrowbodies. Not impossible, there is precedent, but I think the current situation favors the MAX for KL. MAX8 and MAX10 for KL, MAX200 for Transavia.
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Re: Air France - KLM no 737 MAX / A320 NEO orders

Fri Jan 12, 2018 1:56 pm

seahawk wrote:
Not if you could make more money if they would share a common fleet.


Sacrifice part of the income in a profitable company to protect future income (did I mention Strategic?). It's called risk management. And it is discretionary, even if you seem not to understand it.
 
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Re: Air France - KLM no 737 MAX / A320 NEO orders

Fri Jan 12, 2018 2:00 pm

seahawk wrote:
Jayafe wrote:
seahawk wrote:
I seriously can not see any reasonable way in which you could study different planes in your network and come up with completely opposite results for AF and KLM when it comes to single aisle planes.


Then you are clearly missing the estrategic point of achieving exactly that. Having 2 different airlines, with 2 different structures and 2 different materials that guarantee you isolation between them protecting their own assets. As long as both make money, that's a reason a good as any other.


Not if you could make more money if they would share a common fleet.


How are they going to make more money on a common fleet?
The MRO infrastructure is in place for both types at KLM E&M and AFI.
Crew training for AF and KL is done completely separate from each other, even for types which they both operate.
Scheduling synergies would be immediately blocked by both AF and KLM unions.

I agree that KL (HV) switching to A320 series would have benefits:
- Cargo containers
- More modern aircraft
- A321 offers future opportunities

However the disadvantages
- Leverage on Airbus for future orders
- Boeing would likely give a decent price on the MAX to keep KLM as the only European legacy carrier flying the MAX
- Not having to retrain all KLM/HV pilots and cabin crew to the A320

Also regarding "study different planes in your network and come up with completely opposite results for AF and KLM"
The MAX 8 is a very decent plane and is holding its own against the A320neo. The MAX10 vs A321neo is debatable, but with a low performance requirement from KLM I think it might be closer than you think...
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Re: Air France - KLM no 737 MAX / A320 NEO orders

Fri Jan 12, 2018 2:05 pm

If AFKLM has options attached to previous orders that's all that is necessary to secure delivery slots of the next gen narrow bodies. It's not a concern really.
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Re: Air France - KLM no 737 MAX / A320 NEO orders

Fri Jan 12, 2018 3:32 pm

Jayafe wrote:
seahawk wrote:
Not if you could make more money if they would share a common fleet.


Sacrifice part of the income in a profitable company to protect future income (did I mention Strategic?). It's called risk management. And it is discretionary, even if you seem not to understand it.


How do you protect future income by having and also keeping double structures in your company?
 
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Re: Air France - KLM no 737 MAX / A320 NEO orders

Fri Jan 12, 2018 3:40 pm

seahawk wrote:
How do you protect future income by having and also keeping double structures in your company?

In the mind of a lot of people working at KLM by keeping it easy to be separated form AF :lol:

Also KL isn't completely owned by the AF/KL group so complete integration as you see with other mergers is impossible.
 
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keesje
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Re: Air France - KLM no 737 MAX / A320 NEO orders

Fri Jan 12, 2018 4:59 pm

Looked at the cargo opportunity for KLM A321.

Assumptions:
- <700NM Fedex, DHL door to door will beat you in Western Europe
- above 2000NM the A321 will have limitted excess payload left, including winds, reserves etc..

Image
AMS : 700NM & 2000NM

In this envelope, with 2000 passengers incl luggage, an A321 has around 6-7 tons left as cargo opportunity.

Image
Payload range A321

That means 4-5 AKH containers / similar pallets. http://www.alitaliacargo.com/en/about-us/uld-standardcontainer-akh.html

An A321 has 10 positions. So either the front or rear deck could be upgraded for automated container/pallet loading. The other hold could be used for handloading bulk to keep commonality with the 737 fleet.

Image
A321 belly capacity

In practice that means the front cargo deck. Airlines like LH & AC do that.

Image
Air Canada combined bulk & container loading

With KLM NB fleet making 5-6 flights a day & ordering 30 A321 that would mean:

5 containers x 30 aircraft x 300 days x 80% load factor x 1200kg x 1000NM = a lot of containerized revenue cargo opportunity per year. Maybe that is why so many airlines do A321-AKHs.. :coffee:

The group does $2.5B cargo already so could expand on existing business. Many AKH already moving in Skyteam cargo.
https://www.afklcargo.com/NL/en/common/about_us/company_info.jsp#module_1

IMO too much to be ignored when ordering new aircraft. :smile:
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Re: Air France - KLM no 737 MAX / A320 NEO orders

Sat Jan 13, 2018 12:50 am

The 737-10 will have more cargo volume than the A321 when both have the same fuel capacity. If cargo is the driver, it can’t be ignored that more cargo fits in the 737-10 than an A321 with an aux fuel tank. :)

I don’t think there is much point having an A vs B discussion here. All the points have been discussed before and there isn’t anything new that putting it in the context of AF/KL changes. I predict Next up is a post about economy class seat width.
 
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Re: Air France - KLM no 737 MAX / A320 NEO orders

Sat Jan 13, 2018 12:59 am

Newbiepilot wrote:
The 737-10 will have more cargo volume than the A321 when both have the same fuel capacity. If cargo is the driver, it can’t be ignored that more cargo fits in the 737-10 than an A321 with an aux fuel tank. :)

I don’t think there is much point having an A vs B discussion here. All the points have been discussed before and there isn’t anything new that putting it in the context of AF/KL changes. I predict Next up is a post about economy class seat width.


Tons of hand loaded cargo, stuffed up against side walls and the bulkhead. Laptops, fluids, fish, flowers, parcels, amazing.

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Re: Air France - KLM no 737 MAX / A320 NEO orders

Sat Jan 13, 2018 2:04 am

They should keep KLM side 737 and AF side A320. Have both A and B try and get both KLM/AF to purely 1 type with a hefty discount.
 
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Re: Air France - KLM no 737 MAX / A320 NEO orders

Sat Jan 13, 2018 10:06 am

Samrnpage wrote:
They should keep KLM side 737 and AF side A320. Have both A and B try and get both KLM/AF to purely 1 type with a hefty discount.


Yes, but KLM misses out on the cargo opportunity for 20 years, while the others incl AF, using A321's, 797 NMA's, MC21's steal your loads at AMS :down: why choose for that scenario ?
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Re: Air France - KLM no 737 MAX / A320 NEO orders

Sat Jan 13, 2018 1:30 pm

keesje wrote:
Samrnpage wrote:
They should keep KLM side 737 and AF side A320. Have both A and B try and get both KLM/AF to purely 1 type with a hefty discount.


Yes, but KLM misses out on the cargo opportunity for 20 years, while the others incl AF, using A321's, 797 NMA's, MC21's steal your loads at AMS :down: why choose for that scenario ?


The 737-8 carries more cargo than the A320neo. The 737-10 carries more cargo than the A321neo. Your obsession with cargo containers doesn’t change the fact that the 737 cargo holds are bigger and thus they can fit more cargo in. The vast majority of KLMs narrowbody flights are under 1500 miles, so they will be volume limited and not MTOW limited.

Cargo is very important to KLM since AMS is a big cargo airport.
 
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Re: Air France - KLM no 737 MAX / A320 NEO orders

Sat Jan 13, 2018 3:30 pm

keesje wrote:
Samrnpage wrote:
They should keep KLM side 737 and AF side A320. Have both A and B try and get both KLM/AF to purely 1 type with a hefty discount.


Yes, but KLM misses out on the cargo opportunity for 20 years, while the others incl AF, using A321's, 797 NMA's, MC21's steal your loads at AMS :down: why choose for that scenario ?

KL has been doing lousy in the cargo business the past 10 years or so. Before that, they did pretty well. However, after Eurlings became CEO KLM started to neglect their cargo customer base, driving them into the hands of the competition. But the competition wasn't AF, they did even worse if possible. The competion came frome the Middle East and Asia. And these guys weren't flying the A321 to AMS for theit cargo business, I can assure you that.
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Re: Air France - KLM no 737 MAX / A320 NEO orders

Sat Jan 13, 2018 5:10 pm

keesje wrote:
Assumptions:
- <700NM Fedex, DHL door to door will beat you in Western Europe
- above 2000NM the A321 will have limitted excess payload left, including winds, reserves etc..

Image
AMS : 700NM & 2000NM


Using your assumptions and putting the KLM network next to it, I can only conclude that these are fairly insignificant destinations to KLM on the cargo side.
- Northern Norway/Sweden. No KLM destinations and any future destinations would rely on oil industry.
- HEL might be a candidate
- Baltics are not served by KLM
- LED/SVO/KBP might be candidates
- KLM has few destinations in the Balkans
- Greece, Italy and Spain are mainly leisure driven and cargo is not a big priority

With only a handful destinations within the 700/2000nm range that have cargo potential, I do not expect a cargo demand that could warrant fleet strategy changing alternatives.
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Re: Air France - KLM no 737 MAX / A320 NEO orders

Sat Jan 13, 2018 6:34 pm

Newbiepilot wrote:
keesje wrote:
Samrnpage wrote:
They should keep KLM side 737 and AF side A320. Have both A and B try and get both KLM/AF to purely 1 type with a hefty discount.


Yes, but KLM misses out on the cargo opportunity for 20 years, while the others incl AF, using A321's, 797 NMA's, MC21's steal your loads at AMS :down: why choose for that scenario ?


The 737-8 carries more cargo than the A320neo. The 737-10 carries more cargo than the A321neo. Your obsession with cargo containers doesn’t change the fact that the 737 cargo holds are bigger and thus they can fit more cargo in. The vast majority of KLMs narrowbody flights are under 1500 miles, so they will be volume limited and not MTOW limited.

Cargo is very important to KLM since AMS is a big cargo airport.


The 737-10 has perhaps the space for more cargo, but has it the payload? When you go for short haul flights the A321 does not need an ACT either.
 
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keesje
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Re: Air France - KLM no 737 MAX / A320 NEO orders

Sun Jan 14, 2018 10:59 am

"The 737-10 carries more cargo than the A321neo"


Newbiepilot, apart from handloading bulk cargo feasibility and available payload (lbs) realities, I'm interested how the 737-10 carries more cargo than the A321NEO. It seems the cargo bays on the A321 are higher, longer and wider.

Image
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
Newbiepilot
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Re: Air France - KLM no 737 MAX / A320 NEO orders

Sun Jan 14, 2018 1:53 pm

keesje wrote:
"The 737-10 carries more cargo than the A321neo"


Newbiepilot, apart from handloading bulk cargo feasibility and available payload (lbs) realities, I'm interested how the 737-10 carries more cargo than the A321NEO. It seems the cargo bays on the A321 are higher, longer and wider.

Image


More interior volume in the cargo hold.

Given the average length of KLMs flights around Europe I woild guess 90% arent at MTOW and the 737s efficiency over shorter routes is very appealing.

Sorry buddy, i know you love cargo containers and the A321, but it seems like you only started this thread to rehash your A vs B points praising the A321 so i will bow out unless there is some news pertinent to AF KL.
 
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Jayafe
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Re: Air France - KLM no 737 MAX / A320 NEO orders

Sun Jan 14, 2018 2:10 pm

Some people still thinks that real world works like Tetris' logic...
 
Ufsatp
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Re: Air France - KLM no 737 MAX / A320 NEO orders

Sun Jan 14, 2018 4:18 pm

keesje wrote:
Newbiepilot wrote:
The 737-10 will have more cargo volume than the A321 when both have the same fuel capacity. If cargo is the driver, it can’t be ignored that more cargo fits in the 737-10 than an A321 with an aux fuel tank. :)

I don’t think there is much point having an A vs B discussion here. All the points have been discussed before and there isn’t anything new that putting it in the context of AF/KL changes. I predict Next up is a post about economy class seat width.


Tons of hand loaded cargo, stuffed up against side walls and the bulkhead. Laptops, fluids, fish, flowers, parcels, amazing.

:rotfl:


And yet operators of the 737 do that thousands of times every day. Maybe it isn’t as big of a deal as you try to sell on here?
 
RalXWB
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Re: Air France - KLM no 737 MAX / A320 NEO orders

Sun Jan 14, 2018 5:16 pm

Contrary to the opinion of some users that the 321 is never better than the competition, if any, real world figures are telling. AF will stay NEO and everything else we will see.
 
Newbiepilot
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Re: Air France - KLM no 737 MAX / A320 NEO orders

Sun Jan 14, 2018 5:38 pm

RalXWB wrote:
Contrary to the opinion of some users that the 321 is never better than the competition, if any, real world figures are telling. AF will stay NEO and everything else we will see.


I don’t know who has that opinion. I don’t share that belief. Who knows what Air France, KLM, and Transavia will order on the future? I have a feeling it won’t just be A321s but there is a good chance that the A321neo will be a part of the equation.

There clearly is one person posting who believes the A321 is always better than the competition.
 
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keesje
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Re: Air France - KLM no 737 MAX / A320 NEO orders

Sun Jan 14, 2018 8:20 pm

Newbiepilot wrote:
keesje wrote:
"The 737-10 carries more cargo than the A321neo"


Newbiepilot, apart from handloading bulk cargo feasibility and available payload (lbs) realities, I'm interested how the 737-10 carries more cargo than the A321NEO. It seems the cargo bays on the A321 are higher, longer and wider.

Image


More interior volume in the cargo hold.

Given the average length of KLMs flights around Europe I woild guess 90% arent at MTOW and the 737s efficiency over shorter routes is very appealing.

Sorry buddy, i know you love cargo containers and the A321, but it seems like you only started this thread to rehash your A vs B points praising the A321 so i will bow out unless there is some news pertinent to AF KL.


When I worked there the average flight lenght in Europe was more than 1 hour, I don't have the idea aircraft where close to MTOW. We had two class and never more than 180 passengers. Your idea of the 737s carry "more" cargo than A320s is farfetched and frankly, well ... far away from any objectivity. But lets see if the market is as blindly supportive of the 737-10 as you are.
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
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MrBren
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Re: Air France - KLM no 737 MAX / A320 NEO orders

Fri Jan 19, 2018 12:33 pm

AFKLM is to decide by end of year about the medium-haul fleet renewal for AF, KLM, Hop and Transavia, see https://laerien.fr/2018/01/19/air-france-klm-renouveler-flotte-moyen-courrier/ (in French).
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Air France - KLM no 737 MAX / A320 NEO orders

Fri Jan 19, 2018 12:44 pm

MrBren wrote:
AFKLM is about to decide by end of year about the fleet renewal for AF, KLM, Hop and Transavia, see https://laerien.fr/2018/01/19/air-france-klm-renouveler-flotte-moyen-courrier/ (in French).


Few more details:
According to Jean-Marc Janaillac: 1q tender, companies expected to make an offer: Airbus (A320NEO), Boeing (737Max), Embraer (E2) and Bombardier (C-series). A decision to be made before years end, it could be more than one offering.

https://www.luchtvaartnieuws.nl/nieuws/ ... ernieuwing (in Dutch)

Interesting, probably a combination of all these aircraft. Or would HOP! get bigger aircraft?

I have a feeling that Airbus is going to be in the lead with a combination of C-series and A320NEO's.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
DALCE
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Re: Air France - KLM no 737 MAX / A320 NEO orders

Fri Jan 19, 2018 1:53 pm

ULD equiped A32S vs. Bulk 737's... The Airbus wins that all day long. The 737 only loads up to 99-149kgs per piece ( can differ slightly between operators ) whereas the AKH can weigh up to 1134kgs, meaning approx 1000kgs per piece. Max loading height on the 737 is approx 86cm's and on the AKH/PKC you can load 113cm height with ease.
Combined loads is also mentioned wrongly here, Hold 5 is always bulk, regardless of the a/c type (also widebodies) and often used only for crew bags and the likes or top urgent cargo shipments. ( LHO,AOG,SHL and the likes).
I also read that DHL & FEDEX are the beating the traditional airline cargo systems door-2-door. Also this is not true, it all depends on the SOP's dictated by customers.

In whatever way you put it, the 320-series with ULD's are far more convient for cargo than the 737. I yet have to read a strong argument to why a 737 is better for cargo.
Sorry guys/girls, don't take it personal, but I strongly disagree here. And I have been in Cargo for 20 years, having dealt with both 737's and Airbus NB's.
flown: F50,F70,CR1,CR2,CR9,E75,143,AR8,AR1,733,735,736,73G,738,753,763,744,77W,788,319,320,321,333,AB6.
 
FrancisBegbie
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Re: Air France - KLM no 737 MAX / A320 NEO orders

Fri Jan 19, 2018 3:38 pm

DALCE wrote:
ULD equiped A32S vs. Bulk 737's... The Airbus wins that all day long. The 737 only loads up to 99-149kgs per piece ( can differ slightly between operators ) whereas the AKH can weigh up to 1134kgs, meaning approx 1000kgs per piece. Max loading height on the 737 is approx 86cm's and on the AKH/PKC you can load 113cm height with ease.
Combined loads is also mentioned wrongly here, Hold 5 is always bulk, regardless of the a/c type (also widebodies) and often used only for crew bags and the likes or top urgent cargo shipments. ( LHO,AOG,SHL and the likes).
I also read that DHL & FEDEX are the beating the traditional airline cargo systems door-2-door. Also this is not true, it all depends on the SOP's dictated by customers.

In whatever way you put it, the 320-series with ULD's are far more convient for cargo than the 737. I yet have to read a strong argument to why a 737 is better for cargo.
Sorry guys/girls, don't take it personal, but I strongly disagree here. And I have been in Cargo for 20 years, having dealt with both 737's and Airbus NB's.


Not questioning what you're putting here. Just questioning why so many people think that cargo capabilities will be the all-overriding decision factor in this competition. The other arguments all stand too: pricing, capability differences (and their relevance on the shortish sectors in Europe), maintenance expertise, training requirements when switching, historical company preference/bias, etc.

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