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MIAFLLPBIFlyer
Posts: 225
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Re: India Aviation Thread - 2018

Tue Mar 06, 2018 3:29 pm

vadodara wrote:
I concur. Developing DXB was the best thing that happened to Indian aviation.

Cities in Kerala, HYD, AMD and so forth got connectivity. Left to AI/AAI and others, nothing may have happened.


Limiting seats to DXB would be a protectionist measure to force south Indians to use DEL I suppose.
 
vadodara
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Re: India Aviation Thread - 2018

Tue Mar 06, 2018 4:12 pm

MIAFLLPBIFlyer wrote:
vadodara wrote:
I concur. Developing DXB was the best thing that happened to Indian aviation.

Cities in Kerala, HYD, AMD and so forth got connectivity. Left to AI/AAI and others, nothing may have happened.


Limiting seats to DXB would be a protectionist measure to force south Indians to use DEL I suppose.


Or Punjabis and Bhaiyya's to DEL, Gujju's to BOM and so forth. No arguments from my side.

High time the govt. get's rid of policies such as 20-5 rule and so forth. I agree hampering the likes of Indigo and Spice in favor of AI/Jet was not right. However, restricting growth of Vistara or Air Asia makes even less sense.
 
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unrave
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Re: India Aviation Thread - 2018

Tue Mar 06, 2018 5:08 pm

Indian government policy is uniquely stupid in the treatment of smaller airports in allotment of bilateral seats. Most countries cap the no. of seats/frequencies and let the foreign carrier choose where to fly to. Some other countries like Australia restrict flying to the major cities but provide liberal allotments for the smaller cities. Compare this to Indian policy: Essentially forcing Indian carriers to compete with foreign carriers by not allowing them to fly to smaller airports. Why should the government get in the way if a foreign carrier wishes to operate to a small airport?

The one notable exemption to this idiocy has been the ASEAN bilateral where foreign carriers are free to operate unlimited flights to 18 non major airports. This has played a great part in improving the connectivity to cities like TRZ. Sadly this policy has not been carried over to bilaterals with other countries.
Air India is a national embarrassment
 
sand26391
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Re: India Aviation Thread - 2018

Tue Mar 06, 2018 5:16 pm

Anyone1 aware of this particular Surat aviation group WWAS or something?? I remember some member in the group saying that majority of BOMm pax are from Surat and similar with cargo Exports/imports from BOM. Why are the members of this group spamming airline's social media pages for more flights to the city? Never knew thats how you convince an airline to fly to your city....
 
killswitch13
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Re: India Aviation Thread - 2018

Tue Mar 06, 2018 8:09 pm

sand26391 wrote:
Anyone1 aware of this particular Surat aviation group WWAS or something?? I remember some member in the group saying that majority of BOMm pax are from Surat and similar with cargo Exports/imports from BOM. Why are the members of this group spamming airline's social media pages for more flights to the city? Never knew thats how you convince an airline to fly to your city....


Folks from GJ in general behave like D**KS. They feel entitled to more than whats given to them.
 
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binayak
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Re: India Aviation Thread - 2018

Wed Mar 07, 2018 5:53 am

unrave wrote:
Indian government policy is uniquely stupid in the treatment of smaller airports in allotment of bilateral seats. Most countries cap the no. of seats/frequencies and let the foreign carrier choose where to fly to. Some other countries like Australia restrict flying to the major cities but provide liberal allotments for the smaller cities. Compare this to Indian policy: Essentially forcing Indian carriers to compete with foreign carriers by not allowing them to fly to smaller airports. Why should the government get in the way if a foreign carrier wishes to operate to a small airport?

The one notable exemption to this idiocy has been the ASEAN bilateral where foreign carriers are free to operate unlimited flights to 18 non major airports. This has played a great part in improving the connectivity to cities like TRZ. Sadly this policy has not been carried over to bilaterals with other countries.

..........because government wants to develop DEL and DEL only. Remember in the late '80s how govt wanted to down gauge CCU , the then busiest Indian airport, as only a domestic airport . under our govt, our national airline never operated any intercontinental flight from metros like BLR,HYD keep aside small cities. Well AMD is an exception.
All I want to say is that had it not been for the govt , today the condition of Delhi would have been no better than Lucknow or Patna. The govt will continue to focus there and never exploit the real potential of the country.
9W must be declared as India's national airline. They'll indirectly fulfill JRD's vision!!
 
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unrave
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Re: India Aviation Thread - 2018

Wed Mar 07, 2018 6:33 am

Vietjet Air has announced four times a week non stop flights to DEL from SGN. There is no information as yet about the date of commencement.

http://www.aviationpros.com/press_relea ... -expansion
Air India is a national embarrassment
 
blrsea
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Re: India Aviation Thread - 2018

Wed Mar 07, 2018 6:43 am

binayak wrote:
unrave wrote:
Indian government policy is uniquely stupid in the treatment of smaller airports in allotment of bilateral seats. Most countries cap the no. of seats/frequencies and let the foreign carrier choose where to fly to. Some other countries like Australia restrict flying to the major cities but provide liberal allotments for the smaller cities. Compare this to Indian policy: Essentially forcing Indian carriers to compete with foreign carriers by not allowing them to fly to smaller airports. Why should the government get in the way if a foreign carrier wishes to operate to a small airport?

The one notable exemption to this idiocy has been the ASEAN bilateral where foreign carriers are free to operate unlimited flights to 18 non major airports. This has played a great part in improving the connectivity to cities like TRZ. Sadly this policy has not been carried over to bilaterals with other countries.

..........because government wants to develop DEL and DEL only. Remember in the late '80s how govt wanted to down gauge CCU , the then busiest Indian airport, as only a domestic airport . under our govt, our national airline never operated any intercontinental flight from metros like BLR,HYD keep aside small cities. Well AMD is an exception.
All I want to say is that had it not been for the govt , today the condition of Delhi would have been no better than Lucknow or Patna. The govt will continue to focus there and never exploit the real potential of the country.


Thats plain BS. BOM/BLR/HYD/MAA has pretty good service by international carriers. In fact, BOM had the highest amount of international travellers/flights till the DEL airport got refurbished and AI moved there. Even now, BOM is bursting at the seams, and not facing any lack of service. For CCU, blame the communist govt. BLR/MAA which were much less that CCU easily overtook it due to the business friendly governments in those states.

Kingfisher tried operating from BLR and failed. So did 9W earlier and is now offering service to CDG. With a small fleet, AI can't afford to operate from multiple airports, it makes more sense to operate from one hub. Hence BOM earlier and now DEL. The cities also needs to have good O&D support.

unrave does make sense in calling for opening up tier-II cities to foreign carriers like done in ASEAN case.
 
Kashmon
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Re: India Aviation Thread - 2018

Wed Mar 07, 2018 9:10 am

Kingfisher failing was not due to BLR - BLR can easily sustain an international hub and has enough O and D
Kingfisher failing was due to mismanagement

Plain BS?

the government is obsessed about DEL
AI should have gone bankrupt will before IT....

If BLR/BOM got the government investment at the same % as the tax it pays everything would be different.
The govt is obsessed about subsidizing Delhi
 
blrsea
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Re: India Aviation Thread - 2018

Wed Mar 07, 2018 9:54 am

For a long time, BOM had the highest passenger and aircraft movements, more than DEL. It was only after DEL was handed to private operator that the traffic patterns shifted. AI moved to DEL as 9W already had BOM as its hub. And given AI's small fleet, it made sense to have hub in one place and have feeders from multiple cities. And thats why DEL is today AI's hub. And at least get facts right. After handing it to pvt sector, govt is not subsidizing or investing in DEL, its the private operator who does that, and they are sharing revenue with the govt. So govt is actually getting money from DEL/BOM airports, not investing in them. Same with BLR/HYD airports too.

BLR cannot support an international hub on its own. The traffic is not there. Even AF had cut back its daily flight to 5 per week before raising it again. For a long time, there was no Indian carrier operating to SIN. I have been on BA's 744s couple of years back when hardly 100-150 passengers were flying BLR-LHR and back during weekdays. We had whole rows to overselves to sleep! Same thing on Malysian airlines flights in middle of the week. Not just kingfisher, even 9W had tried to connect BLR to its scissor hub and failed . The main destination from BLR still continues to be US, and thats how LH/BA/AF/EK and now 9W are filling their flights. One has to see if the new 9W BLR-CDG flight is high-yielding or not.
 
anshabhi
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Re: India Aviation Thread - 2018

Wed Mar 07, 2018 10:24 am

unrave wrote:
Indian government policy is uniquely stupid in the treatment of smaller airports in allotment of bilateral seats. Most countries cap the no. of seats/frequencies and let the foreign carrier choose where to fly to. Some other countries like Australia restrict flying to the major cities but provide liberal allotments for the smaller cities. Compare this to Indian policy: Essentially forcing Indian carriers to compete with foreign carriers by not allowing them to fly to smaller airports. Why should the government get in the way if a foreign carrier wishes to operate to a small airport?

The one notable exemption to this idiocy has been the ASEAN bilateral where foreign carriers are free to operate unlimited flights to 18 non major airports. This has played a great part in improving the connectivity to cities like TRZ. Sadly this policy has not been carried over to bilaterals with other countries.


India is negotiating Regional Comprehensive economic policy (RCEP) with ASEAN+Australia and more liberalized bilaterals are a part of it.
There's still a lot of controversy around ME carriers getting bilaterals unfairly and that's why they have not been increased since a long time.
Beyond that, yes this policy is pretty restrictive...
Also the govt would need to add a minimum period of serving clause, to recover the costs involved in developing intl facilities at a small airport. I mean, you need to develop customs and screening facilities whenever a new airline serves a small airport..
 
anshabhi
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Re: India Aviation Thread - 2018

Wed Mar 07, 2018 10:27 am

blrsea wrote:
For a long time, BOM had the highest passenger and aircraft movements, more than DEL. It was only after DEL was handed to private operator that the traffic patterns shifted. AI moved to DEL as 9W already had BOM as its hub. And given AI's small fleet, it made sense to have hub in one place and have feeders from multiple cities. And thats why DEL is today AI's hub. And at least get facts right. After handing it to pvt sector, govt is not subsidizing or investing in DEL, its the private operator who does that, and they are sharing revenue with the govt. So govt is actually getting money from DEL/BOM airports, not investing in them. Same with BLR/HYD airports too.

BLR cannot support an international hub on its own. The traffic is not there. Even AF had cut back its daily flight to 5 per week before raising it again. For a long time, there was no Indian carrier operating to SIN. I have been on BA's 744s couple of years back when hardly 100-150 passengers were flying BLR-LHR and back during weekdays. We had whole rows to overselves to sleep! Same thing on Malysian airlines flights in middle of the week. Not just kingfisher, even 9W had tried to connect BLR to its scissor hub and failed . The main destination from BLR still continues to be US, and thats how LH/BA/AF/EK and now 9W are filling their flights. One has to see if the new 9W BLR-CDG flight is high-yielding or not.


I have high hopes from AirAsia for BLR. They have got all the resources and the right cost structure to develop BLR as a hub for India-SE Asia and SE Asia- ME Asia traffic.
I still don't see long haul hub potential for BLR, but surely with AirAsia I see some exciting days ahead for BLR as a regional hub.
 
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binayak
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Re: India Aviation Thread - 2018

Wed Mar 07, 2018 12:47 pm

blrsea wrote:
For a long time, BOM had the highest passenger and aircraft movements, more than DEL. It was only after DEL was handed to private operator that the traffic patterns shifted. AI moved to DEL as 9W already had BOM as its hub. And given AI's small fleet, it made sense to have hub in one place and have feeders from multiple cities. And thats why DEL is today AI's hub. And at least get facts right. After handing it to pvt sector, govt is not subsidizing or investing in DEL, its the private operator who does that, and they are sharing revenue with the govt. So govt is actually getting money from DEL/BOM airports, not investing in them. Same with BLR/HYD airports too.

BLR cannot support an international hub on its own. The traffic is not there. Even AF had cut back its daily flight to 5 per week before raising it again. For a long time, there was no Indian carrier operating to SIN. I have been on BA's 744s couple of years back when hardly 100-150 passengers were flying BLR-LHR and back during weekdays. We had whole rows to overselves to sleep! Same thing on Malysian airlines flights in middle of the week. Not just kingfisher, even 9W had tried to connect BLR to its scissor hub and failed . The main destination from BLR still continues to be US, and thats how LH/BA/AF/EK and now 9W are filling their flights. One has to see if the new 9W BLR-CDG flight is high-yielding or not.

9W does not operate BLR CDG. it operates BLR AMS instead
9W must be declared as India's national airline. They'll indirectly fulfill JRD's vision!!
 
CaliguyNYC
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Re: India Aviation Thread - 2018

Wed Mar 07, 2018 3:10 pm

binayak wrote:
unrave wrote:
Indian government policy is uniquely stupid in the treatment of smaller airports in allotment of bilateral seats. Most countries cap the no. of seats/frequencies and let the foreign carrier choose where to fly to. Some other countries like Australia restrict flying to the major cities but provide liberal allotments for the smaller cities. Compare this to Indian policy: Essentially forcing Indian carriers to compete with foreign carriers by not allowing them to fly to smaller airports. Why should the government get in the way if a foreign carrier wishes to operate to a small airport?

The one notable exemption to this idiocy has been the ASEAN bilateral where foreign carriers are free to operate unlimited flights to 18 non major airports. This has played a great part in improving the connectivity to cities like TRZ. Sadly this policy has not been carried over to bilaterals with other countries.

..........because government wants to develop DEL and DEL only. Remember in the late '80s how govt wanted to down gauge CCU , the then busiest Indian airport, as only a domestic airport . under our govt, our national airline never operated any intercontinental flight from metros like BLR,HYD keep aside small cities. Well AMD is an exception.
All I want to say is that had it not been for the govt , today the condition of Delhi would have been no better than Lucknow or Patna. The govt will continue to focus there and never exploit the real potential of the country.


Ugh once again this same viewpoint. There is NO conspiracy against South Indian airports or any airports. BLR and HYD had brand new airports BEFORE BOM. HYD was trumpeted as the ideal Indian hub - never happened. It didn't happen because of O&D demand to HYD. Flights need a mix of O&D and connecting traffic. Most Indian cities lack premium O&D. I would think every Indian city worth anything would want to be connected to DEL, BOM and now even BLR. That is based on economics and govt. Not biases. Also having international connecting pax can help add frequencies to domestic frequencies )so by pushing a ton of international connections to the Gulf you actually lose flight frequencies domestically - which normal citizens of a country would always press for). There are plenty of people who have no issue connecting in Del or BOM - just look at AI's HYD-DEL-ORD. While others want to connect in the Gulf. So be it. The South is very well connected to the Gulf & SEAsia. So really confused why people feel the GOI screwed the South (also the EU bilaterals usually have BLR, HYD, MAA as points of call - airlines just don't always use them). If anything, the South lacks EU connectivity because those pax fly via the Gulf. And if DEL ends up being a global hub w govt help, then so be it. BOM had the chance and the local govt screwed that up (note the govt allowed TRV, BLR, MAA, HYD all to develop which really hurt BOM as well - no one from BOM complains). Now DEL is better suited as an Indian hub because of space, lack of other close by big airports and high O&D due to govt traffic). At least let India have one hub. As someone who's family flies US-BOM, we love that we have the option of AI nonstop to DEL (it gives flight timing options plus one long leg and then a small one - choice/preference). And the national govt didn't kill CCU - the local govt (and by extension the local people who elected said govt) screwed it by literally driving away businesses.
 
blrsea
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Re: India Aviation Thread - 2018

Wed Mar 07, 2018 4:48 pm

binayak wrote:
9W does not operate BLR CDG. it operates BLR AMS instead


Thanks, you are right, my bad. Got confused with MAA-CDG.
 
anairliner
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Re: India Aviation Thread - 2018

Wed Mar 07, 2018 5:43 pm

Air India loads Tel Aviv schedule. Beginning 22nd March 3x weekly.

AI 139 DEL 16:50 TLV 20:45 247
AI 140 TLV 23:15 DEL 09:00+1 247
 
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unrave
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Re: India Aviation Thread - 2018

Wed Mar 07, 2018 6:16 pm

Great, we will know in about two weeks' time whether Saudi Arabia has indeed provided overflying rights.
Air India is a national embarrassment
 
Kashmon
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Re: India Aviation Thread - 2018

Wed Mar 07, 2018 7:40 pm

the day Air India pays back all its loans is when we can say DEL is based on market economics
until then it is all fluff and DEL is just being subsidized
 
blrsea
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Re: India Aviation Thread - 2018

Thu Mar 08, 2018 1:55 am

Kashmon wrote:
the day Air India pays back all its loans is when we can say DEL is based on market economics
until then it is all fluff and DEL is just being subsidized


Can you please explain how the DEL airport being operated by private operator with no subsidies is same as subsidizing AI, the airline ?
 
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binayak
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Re: India Aviation Thread - 2018

Thu Mar 08, 2018 5:41 am

blrsea wrote:
binayak wrote:
9W does not operate BLR CDG. it operates BLR AMS instead


Thanks, you are right, my bad. Got confused with MAA-CDG.

I think both BLR AMS and MAA CDG are performing well as evident from the fact that 9W is using the A333 instead of A332 . Both of them have the same number of J seats as BOM CDG & BOM AMS which means significant premium traffic.
9W must be declared as India's national airline. They'll indirectly fulfill JRD's vision!!
 
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unrave
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Re: India Aviation Thread - 2018

Thu Mar 08, 2018 5:52 am

Multiple Israeli news outlets have reported that AI has confirmed the opening of Saudi airspace to DEL-TLV flights
https://www.i24news.tv/en/news/internat ... r-march-22

We can know for sure only on Mar 22. Hopefully it shuts up the perpetual naysayer.
Air India is a national embarrassment
 
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binayak
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Re: India Aviation Thread - 2018

Thu Mar 08, 2018 6:02 am

CaliguyNYC wrote:
binayak wrote:
unrave wrote:
.

.


Ugh once again this same viewpoint. There is NO conspiracy against South Indian airports or any airports. BLR and HYD had brand new airports BEFORE BOM. HYD was trumpeted as the ideal Indian hub - never happened. It didn't happen because of O&D demand to HYD. Flights need a mix of O&D and connecting traffic. Most Indian cities lack premium O&D. I would think every Indian city worth anything would want to be connected to DEL, BOM and now even BLR. That is based on economics and govt. Not biases. Also having international connecting pax can help add frequencies to domestic frequencies )so by pushing a ton of international connections to the Gulf you actually lose flight frequencies domestically - which normal citizens of a country would always press for). There are plenty of people who have no issue connecting in Del or BOM - just look at AI's HYD-DEL-ORD. While others want to connect in the Gulf. So be it. The South is very well connected to the Gulf & SEAsia. So really confused why people feel the GOI screwed the South (also the EU bilaterals usually have BLR, HYD, MAA as points of call - airlines just don't always use them). If anything, the South lacks EU connectivity because those pax fly via the Gulf. And if DEL ends up being a global hub w govt help, then so be it. BOM had the chance and the local govt screwed that up (note the govt allowed TRV, BLR, MAA, HYD all to develop which really hurt BOM as well - no one from BOM complains). Now DEL is better suited as an Indian hub because of space, lack of other close by big airports and high O&D due to govt traffic). At least let India have one hub. As someone who's family flies US-BOM, we love that we have the option of AI nonstop to DEL (it gives flight timing options plus one long leg and then a small one - choice/preference). And the national govt didn't kill CCU - the local govt (and by extension the local people who elected said govt) screwed it by literally driving away businesses.

I am not one of those who want to say that AI should operate ultra long hauls to USA from south india, neither do I fancy such routes. I just wanted to say that six years ago, there was hardly any intercontinental flight from south but the cities were growing rapidly. So why couldn't AI take a chance. For example, once they had declared FRA as a scissor hub for flights onward to USA. , they just connected BOM and DEL to FRA and had onward routes to ORD,EWR,LAX. Neither BLR nor MAA was taken into consideration.
Till last year even I agreed that AI is not ignoring south and are building strong hub in DEL but recent events like continuing the loss making AMD LHR EWR and launching of ATQ BHX have totally changed my views.
9W must be declared as India's national airline. They'll indirectly fulfill JRD's vision!!
 
sand26391
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Re: India Aviation Thread - 2018

Thu Mar 08, 2018 6:20 am

Sorry to barge in but just out of curiosity, why do most of us think that the ATQ-BHX service by AI will fail?
 
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unrave
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Re: India Aviation Thread - 2018

Thu Mar 08, 2018 6:32 am

Because it is a route launched for political mileage and flies against the face of AI's claims of building a hub at DEL. I am no expert but I believe it will be one of the first routes to be axed if/when private management takes over AI
Air India is a national embarrassment
 
anshabhi
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Re: India Aviation Thread - 2018

Thu Mar 08, 2018 7:37 am

sand26391 wrote:
Sorry to barge in but just out of curiosity, why do most of us think that the ATQ-BHX service by AI will fail?

Just see the fares for it on anyday. Atleast for next 6 months,one way fare for BHX-ATQ is above ₹24,000 on any day .... LHR round trips start from ₹35k ..
 
sand26391
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Re: India Aviation Thread - 2018

Thu Mar 08, 2018 8:55 am

^^^^
Understood, but what do u have to say with the following logic that many say(On twitter atleast) "There is a large population of Sikhs/Punjabis in BHX and nearby cities, the airline can easily sustain the flight!" Is it just VFR/OD traffic or is there actually Business traffic btw the 2 cities
 
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unrave
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Re: India Aviation Thread - 2018

Thu Mar 08, 2018 11:17 am

BHX has a large Indian population, not just Punjabis. Operating a flight AI's hub, DEL will benefit more people and in turn would ensure higher patronage.
Air India is a national embarrassment
 
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binayak
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Re: India Aviation Thread - 2018

Thu Mar 08, 2018 12:31 pm

sand26391 wrote:
^^^^
Understood, but what do u have to say with the following logic that many say(On twitter atleast) "There is a large population of Sikhs/Punjabis in BHX and nearby cities, the airline can easily sustain the flight!" Is it just VFR/OD traffic or is there actually Business traffic btw the 2 cities

It's just VFR that too low yielding ones mostly. Yes as unrave pointed out there is a sizable Indian diaspora at BHX so best will be to route them through the airline's hub. No business traffic. More than 90% international business traffic from India are from metro cities only. Well the ATQ BHX flight originates from DEL so there will be some business traffic but not much. This reminds me of AI's " punjab mail " !!!
9W must be declared as India's national airline. They'll indirectly fulfill JRD's vision!!
 
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binayak
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Re: India Aviation Thread - 2018

Thu Mar 08, 2018 12:36 pm

This article hints about 9W ordering 75 narrow bodied aircraft alongside their existing order of 75 B737 max. They have not yet decided what to do about their ordered 789s
https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/in ... 214253.cms
9W must be declared as India's national airline. They'll indirectly fulfill JRD's vision!!
 
blrsea
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Re: India Aviation Thread - 2018

Thu Mar 08, 2018 1:42 pm

Vistara will be starting international operations in 2nd half of this year, SE Asia will be the first few destinations

Vistara to start international flights from second half of 2018

"Right now, we have 19 aircraft. We are going to get 20th aircraft by this month. Then we have leased another two A320 Neos, which will be delivered in May and June. So all together, we will have 22 aircraft when we go international," Leslie Thng told reporters here.

Speaking on the sidelines of the 'Wings India 2018' event, he said the likely destinations for international operations would be regional having duration of 3-5 hours, adding that the first flight would be to South East Asia.

"Within 1-2 years of our international operations, we expect to start medium haul destinations. In my perspective, it (medium haul) is 5-9 hours. Of course, Vistara is interested to go long haul... So long haul India to USA is something which we are interested in but we will do it at the right time," the Vistara chief said.

He also emphasised that at this moment, the airline does not have a fixed time-line for flying long-haul flights.
 
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unrave
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Re: India Aviation Thread - 2018

Thu Mar 08, 2018 1:55 pm

It is a travesty that one of the only two long haul carriers of the fastest growing aviation market can't decide about a paltry 10 aircraft order. I won't be surprised if IndiGo, Air Asia and Vistara all surpass 9W's international capacity in the next 5-7 years.
Air India is a national embarrassment
 
VTORD
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Re: India Aviation Thread - 2018

Thu Mar 08, 2018 2:24 pm

binayak wrote:
For example, once they had declared FRA as a scissor hub for flights onward to USA. , they just connected BOM and DEL to FRA and had onward routes to ORD,EWR,LAX. Neither BLR nor MAA was taken into consideration.
Till last year even I agreed that AI is not ignoring south and are building strong hub in DEL but recent events like continuing the loss making AMD LHR EWR and launching of ATQ BHX have totally changed my views.


IIRC, LAX was never in the picture six years ago. They used to have AMD in addition to BOM & DEL (AI126 was ORD-BOM via FRA, AI 144 was AMD-bound from EWR and the DEL flight used to be the YYZ one). And there used to be the additional JFK-BOM/DEL non-stops (not sure of DEL).

Anecdotally from what I know of interacting with the desi community out here, HYD is extremely price conscious ($1,000 + returns are considered expensive) so sustaining a non-stop would be difficult. Same for MAA. But BLR might just be a question of aircraft range? As to AMD-LHR-EWR, I am just assuming it's to please the guy with the 56" chest.

unrave wrote:
We can know for sure only on Mar 22. Hopefully it shuts up the perpetual naysayer.

Reuters says AI confirmed:
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-air- ... SKCN1GJ24X
Twitter: @spottingfoodie
 
CaliguyNYC
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Re: India Aviation Thread - 2018

Thu Mar 08, 2018 3:05 pm

binayak wrote:
CaliguyNYC wrote:
binayak wrote:
.


Ugh once again this same viewpoint. There is NO conspiracy against South Indian airports or any airports. BLR and HYD had brand new airports BEFORE BOM. HYD was trumpeted as the ideal Indian hub - never happened. It didn't happen because of O&D demand to HYD. Flights need a mix of O&D and connecting traffic. Most Indian cities lack premium O&D. I would think every Indian city worth anything would want to be connected to DEL, BOM and now even BLR. That is based on economics and govt. Not biases. Also having international connecting pax can help add frequencies to domestic frequencies )so by pushing a ton of international connections to the Gulf you actually lose flight frequencies domestically - which normal citizens of a country would always press for). There are plenty of people who have no issue connecting in Del or BOM - just look at AI's HYD-DEL-ORD. While others want to connect in the Gulf. So be it. The South is very well connected to the Gulf & SEAsia. So really confused why people feel the GOI screwed the South (also the EU bilaterals usually have BLR, HYD, MAA as points of call - airlines just don't always use them). If anything, the South lacks EU connectivity because those pax fly via the Gulf. And if DEL ends up being a global hub w govt help, then so be it. BOM had the chance and the local govt screwed that up (note the govt allowed TRV, BLR, MAA, HYD all to develop which really hurt BOM as well - no one from BOM complains). Now DEL is better suited as an Indian hub because of space, lack of other close by big airports and high O&D due to govt traffic). At least let India have one hub. As someone who's family flies US-BOM, we love that we have the option of AI nonstop to DEL (it gives flight timing options plus one long leg and then a small one - choice/preference). And the national govt didn't kill CCU - the local govt (and by extension the local people who elected said govt) screwed it by literally driving away businesses.

I am not one of those who want to say that AI should operate ultra long hauls to USA from south india, neither do I fancy such routes. I just wanted to say that six years ago, there was hardly any intercontinental flight from south but the cities were growing rapidly. So why couldn't AI take a chance. For example, once they had declared FRA as a scissor hub for flights onward to USA. , they just connected BOM and DEL to FRA and had onward routes to ORD,EWR,LAX. Neither BLR nor MAA was taken into consideration.
Till last year even I agreed that AI is not ignoring south and are building strong hub in DEL but recent events like continuing the loss making AMD LHR EWR and launching of ATQ BHX have totally changed my views.


Fair enough. Here's what I would say - AI should stick to building the DEL hub and also fly high O&D premium routes form other cities (like CCU-BKK or MAA-SIN or BOM-DXB). The AMD-LHR-EWR and ATQ-BHX flights have been slammed by many and were wrong decisions. So AI shouldn't start MAA-JFK because they started AMD-LHR. They should instead cancel those flights and focus on DEL. Going by your argument, I would say there is a case for AMD and ATQ (which I do not agree with). Both of those cities suffer much more by the limited bilaterals than any city in the south. So MAA, BLR have a host of options by Indian and non Indian carriers to fly to the west. ATQ and AMD do not. Also they have the most established diaspora in the West (I know some groups have immigrated more recently). These groups funnel a lot of money back to Indian and want some convenience (in the same way Kerela wanted all those nonstop to the Gulf). So AMD being connected to LHR and EWR (which are HUGE upper middle class Gujrati immigrant cities) does make some political sense. That said, AI should cut these routes.
 
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binayak
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Re: India Aviation Thread - 2018

Thu Mar 08, 2018 3:07 pm

unrave wrote:
It is a travesty that one of the only two long haul carriers of the fastest growing aviation market can't decide about a paltry 10 aircraft order. I won't be surprised if IndiGo, Air Asia and Vistara all surpass 9W's international capacity in the next 5-7 years.

Remember it's a ten wide body order . I think reviewing their orders which were made a decade ago is better than taking the delivery and selling at throw away prices which AI did with their 77Ls. Slots at BOM is an issue and we all know that they could make a good use of their 777s last year after their joint venture whereas those planes were bought 10 years ago. As for vistara we have to see how their int'l ops go because I have been observing for the last couple of years that they are not able to sustain many routes for a long time . As for 9W , an airline which knows that int'l ops are a major source of revenue , will go for an int'l expansion given a chance. Wait for navi mumbai to be operational ( fingers crossed 2020 ) . Let them first be stable in the domestic market with the new max planes . They can even try and replace their 77Ws with 777X in future .
9W must be declared as India's national airline. They'll indirectly fulfill JRD's vision!!
 
hohd
Posts: 620
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Re: India Aviation Thread - 2018

Thu Mar 08, 2018 3:20 pm

CaliguyNYC wrote:
binayak wrote:
CaliguyNYC wrote:


Fair enough. Here's what I would say - AI should stick to building the DEL hub and also fly high O&D premium routes form other cities (like CCU-BKK or MAA-SIN or BOM-DXB). The AMD-LHR-EWR and ATQ-BHX flights have been slammed by many and were wrong decisions. So AI shouldn't start MAA-JFK because they started AMD-LHR. They should instead cancel those flights and focus on DEL. Going by your argument, I would say there is a case for AMD and ATQ (which I do not agree with). Both of those cities suffer much more by the limited bilaterals than any city in the south. So MAA, BLR have a host of options by Indian and non Indian carriers to fly to the west. ATQ and AMD do not. Also they have the most established diaspora in the West (I know some groups have immigrated more recently). These groups funnel a lot of money back to Indian and want some convenience (in the same way Kerela wanted all those nonstop to the Gulf). So AMD being connected to LHR and EWR (which are HUGE upper middle class Gujrati immigrant cities) does make some political sense. That said, AI should cut these routes.



Agree with the comment. Right now any European or US/Canadian carrier can start service to AMD, CCU, HYD, or MAA. But they choose not to since premium traffic is not there. Only BOM, DEL and BLR have consistent premium demand. I am not even sure about 9W's MAA-CDG flight. And AI is correct in concentrating on DEL with a few nonstops from BOM, AI does provide 1 stop service from HYD and may be they should also from BLR (to the SFO flight).
 
blrsea
Posts: 1713
Joined: Fri May 20, 2005 2:22 am

Re: India Aviation Thread - 2018

Fri Mar 09, 2018 1:00 am

The order backlog for Indian carriers is approaching 1000 planes! With booming economy and annual growth of more than 15% in domestic sectors, carriers are investing aggressively in new aircraft.

Indian carriers ready to splurge on new planes in booming aviation market

Indian carriers will have an order book of more than 1,000 aircraft - the third-largest in the world after the US and China.
...


Image
 
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unrave
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Re: India Aviation Thread - 2018

Fri Mar 09, 2018 5:18 am

Aviation minister has resigned today. BusinessLine opines his success was lacklustre.
https://www.thehindubusinessline.com/ec ... 986813.ece

I hope this does not scuttle AI privatisation
Air India is a national embarrassment
 
anshabhi
Posts: 1525
Joined: Thu Oct 20, 2016 10:40 am

Re: India Aviation Thread - 2018

Fri Mar 09, 2018 7:08 am

unrave wrote:
Aviation minister has resigned today. BusinessLine opines his success was lacklustre.
https://www.thehindubusinessline.com/ec ... 986813.ece

I hope this does not scuttle AI privatisation

A very political move, has to so with TDP-BJP relations more than anything else.
Jayant Sinha is still there, and honestly he's the one who actually works in the ministry.
 
studentdrbev
Posts: 75
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Re: India Aviation Thread - 2018

Fri Mar 09, 2018 10:27 am

unrave wrote:
Aviation minister has resigned today. BusinessLine opines his success was lacklustre.
https://www.thehindubusinessline.com/ec ... 986813.ece

I hope this does not scuttle AI privatisation


Incompetent politician

That aside, who else is competent in the ministry?? NONE :expressionless:
 
rvnagesh50
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Re: India Aviation Thread - 2018

Fri Mar 09, 2018 10:55 am

I am US based and use Premium class flying to MAA from Mid-West..LH flights are one stop along with BA and AI and ME3 and Cathay,via west coast.1K price difference is still 1K ,as I am paying out of my pocket ,not the company.HOWEVER service matters , and here AI fails,due to DEL connection where security,is onerous and poor planes and service[covered meal trays for Buisness class]??.9W via AMS and CDG needs to improve their service "like good old days" and their planes which are falling apart,before I switch.
 
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binayak
Posts: 471
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Re: India Aviation Thread - 2018

Fri Mar 09, 2018 12:40 pm

rvnagesh50 wrote:
I am US based and use Premium class flying to MAA from Mid-West..LH flights are one stop along with BA and AI and ME3 and Cathay,via west coast.1K price difference is still 1K ,as I am paying out of my pocket ,not the company.HOWEVER service matters , and here AI fails,due to DEL connection where security,is onerous and poor planes and service[covered meal trays for Buisness class]??.9W via AMS and CDG needs to improve their service "like good old days" and their planes which are falling apart,before I switch.

Which of them do you choose most often? AI's business class is really bad. Their 777 J has 2-3-2 configuration. 9W is way better in J with 1-2-1 herringbone layout. Even their A333s have 2-2-1 configuration. You can try them if you haven't. Well if you are from MAA, them you might like their newly added "filter coffee" in J and F. I love their " sky chai".
9W must be declared as India's national airline. They'll indirectly fulfill JRD's vision!!
 
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unrave
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Joined: Tue Jan 06, 2015 6:37 am

Re: India Aviation Thread - 2018

Fri Mar 09, 2018 2:46 pm

The PM takes charge of the aviation ministry
https://www.ndtv.com/india-news/prime-m ... ry-1821712

We can expect the divestment to proceed along expected timelines now.
Air India is a national embarrassment
 
vadodara
Posts: 569
Joined: Mon Feb 20, 2017 7:45 pm

Re: India Aviation Thread - 2018

Fri Mar 09, 2018 2:49 pm

Kashmon wrote:
the day Air India pays back all its loans is when we can say DEL is based on market economics
until then it is all fluff and DEL is just being subsidized


+1 Add BOM to the list as well
 
vadodara
Posts: 569
Joined: Mon Feb 20, 2017 7:45 pm

Re: India Aviation Thread - 2018

Fri Mar 09, 2018 2:51 pm

anshabhi wrote:
unrave wrote:
Aviation minister has resigned today. BusinessLine opines his success was lacklustre.
https://www.thehindubusinessline.com/ec ... 986813.ece

I hope this does not scuttle AI privatisation

A very political move, has to so with TDP-BJP relations more than anything else.
Jayant Sinha is still there, and honestly he's the one who actually works in the ministry.


Must be a very reluctant move, with the perks AI offers disappearing.

But it seems like the Air India hair-cut followed by a shave is very likely to happen.
 
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binayak
Posts: 471
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Re: India Aviation Thread - 2018

Fri Mar 09, 2018 3:08 pm

unrave wrote:
The PM takes charge of the aviation ministry
https://www.ndtv.com/india-news/prime-m ... ry-1821712

We can expect the divestment to proceed along expected timelines now.

He (NaMo) is quite an ambitious man..I see. So how many more long hauls are yet to come out of AMD?? :lol:
9W must be declared as India's national airline. They'll indirectly fulfill JRD's vision!!
 
CaliguyNYC
Posts: 388
Joined: Tue Sep 27, 2016 7:27 pm

Re: India Aviation Thread - 2018

Fri Mar 09, 2018 3:34 pm

rvnagesh50 wrote:
I am US based and use Premium class flying to MAA from Mid-West..LH flights are one stop along with BA and AI and ME3 and Cathay,via west coast.1K price difference is still 1K ,as I am paying out of my pocket ,not the company.HOWEVER service matters , and here AI fails,due to DEL connection where security,is onerous and poor planes and service[covered meal trays for Buisness class]??.9W via AMS and CDG needs to improve their service "like good old days" and their planes which are falling apart,before I switch.


Since the DL partnership with 9W, I've flown 9W in J 4 times between LHR, AMS and CDG-BOM. All were on the 77W (can't speak about their A330). I thought the experience was great. Not SQ, but up there. Great seats (even give a mattress pad - although you have to take it form the overhead bin). Food was great. Only issue is their service, while warm and attentive, is not a well oiled machine. Would not call their 77W run down by any means. I try and avoid AF in J (even on the CDG-NYC runs) - the new J class is great but the food is ok and their second meal service is just plain weird. On the EU-USA legs in J, I always prefer DL then KL and then AF. I love the DL J experience (it's ordered, you know what to expect, decent food and Sundays for desert). I am not a fan of LH's J class. I think it's weird that the two seats are so close together by the feet.
 
vadodara
Posts: 569
Joined: Mon Feb 20, 2017 7:45 pm

Re: India Aviation Thread - 2018

Fri Mar 09, 2018 4:45 pm

binayak wrote:
unrave wrote:
The PM takes charge of the aviation ministry
https://www.ndtv.com/india-news/prime-m ... ry-1821712

We can expect the divestment to proceed along expected timelines now.

He (NaMo) is quite an ambitious man..I see. So how many more long hauls are yet to come out of AMD?? :lol:


He probably has a good idea of how much money is getting sunk in maintaining 'DEL' and 'BOM' hubs. Hair-cut comes before the shave.
 
anubhav787
Posts: 19
Joined: Fri Mar 10, 2017 1:56 pm

Re: India Aviation Thread - 2018

Fri Mar 09, 2018 6:14 pm

VT ALX , the last Boeing 777 of Air India to be named Sikkim.
To most people, the sky is the limit. For those who love aviation, the sky is the home.
 
rvnagesh50
Posts: 7
Joined: Sun May 28, 2017 10:10 pm

Re: India Aviation Thread - 2018

Fri Mar 09, 2018 10:36 pm

I have noted above comments on 9W.Well i will try next time.Thanks.
 
User avatar
unrave
Posts: 699
Joined: Tue Jan 06, 2015 6:37 am

Re: India Aviation Thread - 2018

Sat Mar 10, 2018 7:32 am

More aircraft orders by Indian carriers:
1. AirAsia India has issued an RFP for the lease of forty A320ceo to be delivered over the next 4-5 years
2. Jet Airways CEO Vinay Dube, has said Jet hopes to order 75 narrow-bodied aircraft by March 31 in addition to 75 Boeing 737 MAX that the
airline had ordered in 2015
3. IndiGo has reportedly ordered 50 Airbus A330 wide-body jets.
Air India is a national embarrassment
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