hayzel777
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Aeromexico Nearly Lands on Wrong Runway at SFO

Thu Jan 11, 2018 3:50 am

An Aeromexico flight nearly landed on 28L when it was cleared to land on 28R. 28L had a VX plane on it.

https://www.nbcbayarea.com/news/local/A ... 07763.html
 
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neomax
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Re: Aeromexico Nearly Lands on Wrong Runway at SFO

Thu Jan 11, 2018 5:02 am

“Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me. Fool me three times, shame on both of us.”

At this point, SFO is just as guilty of not doing anything to prevent this problem, even if the pilots are the ones who messed up. This is third time we've had a runway related miss at SFO in less than 6 months with the same runway. Normally, the third time is the strike (Yikes!) and I don't think most people realize how insanely lucky SFO has had it lately. Simply put, I hate to say it, but with every near miss, the chances of the next one escaping tragedy narrows considerably. No matter how good your luck is, it will run out eventually and you better be damn sure that you fix the problem before it runs out. The only thing preventing this was the fact that somebody in SFO ATC was in the right place at the right time and noticed this, but SFO cannot always rely on this to be the case as you simply cannot have ATC as the sole failsafe should they fail to notice an issue, which will always be possible as long as humans are in the tower. I think it speaks volumes that both airlines have not trained their pilots better for SFO's runways better and that SFO itself has not done anything to better identify the runways. Add "TAXI" to the taxiway, make the numbers/letters bigger for the left and right runways, add high intensity lights that can be seen from a distance during daylight approach, whatever, but do something! I am increasingly concerned that it will take an accident for changes to occur, but I am hoping that this is not the case. Many airports have a wide variety of systems to ensure that regardless of a pilot or aircraft error, an airport infrastructure independently has its own measures in place with the ability to prevent a major accident regardless of the pilot's mistake or aircraft's situation with multiple backup safety features for different types of incidents. For example, runways have an overrun safety feature called EMAS (Engineered Materials Arrestor System) which slows down aircraft that are moving too quickly to effectively stop using their own brakes before the end of the runway. EMAS is composed of high energy absorbent material that collapses when an aircraft's tires impact it and slows down the aircraft as a backup measure if the plane's own brakes failed or the pilot aborted too late. The point of this example is that mistakes happen, but you cannot rely on the pilot or ATC to notice, because both are controlled by humans; EMAS will work 100% of the time, and that is true safety. At SFO, what they need to do is to install some high visibility warning signal on the runway that illuminates to visually alert the pilots if they have lined up incorrectly in sync with some form of automatically triggered ATC prompt which audibly informs the pilots in the cockpit simultaneously if they miss the visual signal. Three times for such a strikingly similar incident in less than half a year is very alarming and virtually unprecedented in aviation. Airlines should do something, but SFO MUST do something because they are the common denominator in all three incidents.
 
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Runway28L
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Re: Aeromexico Nearly Lands on Wrong Runway at SFO

Thu Jan 11, 2018 5:13 am

What exactly is the problem with 28R and 28L at SFO? Are they too close together or are there other issues such as the ILS for both?

Apologies if this is a dumb question.
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Jshank83
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Re: Aeromexico Nearly Lands on Wrong Runway at SFO

Thu Jan 11, 2018 5:18 am

I might have to just always fly into OAK. It doesn't seem like they should be that hard to mess up but they must be. This was even middle of the day. Although, I don't know what the weather was like.
 
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neomax
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Re: Aeromexico Nearly Lands on Wrong Runway at SFO

Thu Jan 11, 2018 5:26 am

Runway28L wrote:
What exactly is the problem with 28R and 28L at SFO? Are they too close together or are there other issues such as the ILS for both?

Apologies if this is a dumb question.


I mean, you tell me. It wouldn't be a dumb question if it weren't for your username. :rotfl:
 
737MAX7
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Re: Aeromexico Nearly Lands on Wrong Runway at SFO

Thu Jan 11, 2018 5:39 am

neomax wrote:
Runway28L wrote:
What exactly is the problem with 28R and 28L at SFO? Are they too close together or are there other issues such as the ILS for both?

Apologies if this is a dumb question.


I mean, you tell me. It wouldn't be a dumb question if it weren't for your username. :rotfl:

:lol: :rotfl: oh the irony
 
GoSharks
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Re: Aeromexico Nearly Lands on Wrong Runway at SFO

Thu Jan 11, 2018 5:50 am

neomax wrote:
Simply put, I hate to say it, but with every near miss, the chances of the next one escaping tragedy narrows considerably.

No it doesn't. Each event, past, current, or future is independent of any other one.
 
DarthLobster
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Re: Aeromexico Nearly Lands on Wrong Runway at SFO

Thu Jan 11, 2018 5:57 am

According to FlightAware this flight arrived at SFO at noon, visibility 8 miles. This one might just be on the flight crew.
 
BoeingGuy
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Re: Aeromexico Nearly Lands on Wrong Runway at SFO

Thu Jan 11, 2018 6:01 am

GoSharks wrote:
neomax wrote:
Simply put, I hate to say it, but with every near miss, the chances of the next one escaping tragedy narrows considerably.

No it doesn't. Each event, past, current, or future is independent of any other one.


Statistically perhaps you are correct. However, we say the same thing at my work. Every time there is a near miss of a given issue, you are one step closer to having an actual tragedy.

We aren’t talking about having 9 boys and saying it’s still 50/50 whether your next baby is a boy or girl. Aviation accidents are a complex set of factors. If there is a common thread of near accidents, eventually luck is going to run out.
 
PITingres
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Re: Aeromexico Nearly Lands on Wrong Runway at SFO

Thu Jan 11, 2018 6:06 am

GoSharks wrote:
... Each event, past, current, or future is independent of any other one.


Only if they are independent. Some things are (dice rolling) and some things aren't (chained accidents). You have to show the independence, you can't just loudly claim it and declare victory.

I don't know what is going on with SFO, but I think at this point the burden of proof-of-independence would be on them.
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GoSharks
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Re: Aeromexico Nearly Lands on Wrong Runway at SFO

Thu Jan 11, 2018 6:14 am

BoeingGuy wrote:
GoSharks wrote:
neomax wrote:
Simply put, I hate to say it, but with every near miss, the chances of the next one escaping tragedy narrows considerably.

No it doesn't. Each event, past, current, or future is independent of any other one.


Statistically perhaps you are correct. However, we say the same thing at my work. Every time there is a near miss of a given issue, you are one step closer to having an actual tragedy.

We aren’t talking about having 9 boys and saying it’s still 50/50 whether your next baby is a boy or girl. Aviation accidents are a complex set of factors. If there is a common thread of near accidents, eventually luck is going to run out.

Having 1 or 10 near tragedies doesn't mean that your next event is going to be any closer to being a tragedy. The probability of the next event being damaging or not is the same as all the previous events if nothing has changed in the system. So yes, neomax was talking about having 9 boys. Might not have been the intent though...
 
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Runway28L
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Re: Aeromexico Nearly Lands on Wrong Runway at SFO

Thu Jan 11, 2018 6:16 am

737MAX7 wrote:
neomax wrote:
Runway28L wrote:
What exactly is the problem with 28R and 28L at SFO? Are they too close together or are there other issues such as the ILS for both?

Apologies if this is a dumb question.


I mean, you tell me. It wouldn't be a dumb question if it weren't for your username. :rotfl:

:lol: :rotfl: oh the irony

So basically I would naturally have to think that it's 28R causing the issues then :) :duck:
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GoSharks
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Re: Aeromexico Nearly Lands on Wrong Runway at SFO

Thu Jan 11, 2018 6:17 am

PITingres wrote:
GoSharks wrote:
... Each event, past, current, or future is independent of any other one.


Only if they are independent. Some things are (dice rolling) and some things aren't (chained accidents). You have to show the independence, you can't just loudly claim it and declare victory.

I don't know what is going on with SFO, but I think at this point the burden of proof-of-independence would be on them.

Are you saying is that if the first incident didn't happen, then the 2nd and 3rd wouldn't happen? I find that hard to believe.

They aren't chained. Being caused by the same thing (airport configuration/training/etc) doesn't mean that each incident causes another one - each incident is independent.
 
salttee
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Re: Aeromexico Nearly Lands on Wrong Runway at SFO

Thu Jan 11, 2018 6:28 am

neomax, why do you think it's SFO who has to do something?

The controllers saved the day by noticing that the flight was lined up on the wrong runway and ordered a go-around.
 
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Re: Aeromexico Nearly Lands on Wrong Runway at SFO

Thu Jan 11, 2018 6:32 am

Having flown into SFO a lot over the past few years and being far from a super pilot I personally don’t understand the issues here. The runway lights are bright and easy to identify. My properly tuned and identified LOC Freq and inbound course also communicate nicely with the 757’s flight director display just incase I can’t seem to identify left from right, white from blue/green, etc. Finally that other guy with the 4th stripe tends to do an amazing job of cross checking my flying just as I do his instead of instagramming cute poses in the flight deck. Time to be pilots here guys and gals...
 
fly4ever78
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Re: Aeromexico Nearly Lands on Wrong Runway at SFO

Thu Jan 11, 2018 7:09 am

One reason for these incidents is the fact that the FAA has allowed visual approaches to 28L/R below their own minimum standards for parallel runways separation limits. This does not negate the responsibility for the pilots to make sure they are lined up for the correct runway, but it obviously allows for higher odds of these types of incidents to occur. I don't know the specifics of this particular incident, but throw in some inoperative equipment (which is commonplace) and it is very easy to line up for the wrong runway.
 
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Re: Aeromexico Nearly Lands on Wrong Runway at SFO

Thu Jan 11, 2018 7:10 am

hayzel777 wrote:
An Aeromexico flight nearly landed on 28L when it was cleared to land on 28R. 28L had a VX plane on it.



It seems that Aeromexico had an Air Canada moment :spin: . Talk about déjà vu.
 
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Re: Aeromexico Nearly Lands on Wrong Runway at SFO

Thu Jan 11, 2018 7:12 am

LockheedBBD wrote:
hayzel777 wrote:
An Aeromexico flight nearly landed on 28L when it was cleared to land on 28R. 28L had a VX plane on it.



It seems that Aeromexico had an Air Canada moment :spin: . Talk about déjà vu.


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Re: Aeromexico Nearly Lands on Wrong Runway at SFO

Thu Jan 11, 2018 7:50 am

DarthLobster wrote:
According to FlightAware this flight arrived at SFO at noon, visibility 8 miles. This one might just be on the flight crew.


Yeah, I'm getting the same impression mainly because of the time of day. That said, Asiana 214 also had fantastic visibility the day it landed, but that wasn't enough to save it, because SFO (should) require specialized training for pilots who rarely fly there, which is definitely a possibility for AM pilots. Final approaches over water are far from rare, as seen in JFK, LGA, and numerous Asian airports, but they require an extremely sharp degree of spatial and altitude awareness during the day and especially at night. SFO is the only airport in the world I can think of with an overwater final that also happens to have a parallel so close that even a slight crosswind can make it appear as if you're lined up with the parallel. At most airports, parallel runways are far enough apart that there is actually a distinct difference in how you approach each runway in terms of the approach angle and direction. At JFK, when landing on 4/22, the runways are already far enough apart, but also look different visually as they're staggered in addition to different surroundings during the final approach that can be seen from a great distance, so even at night so it's generally hard to mistake the two. The 31's are so far apart that if you somehow managed to miss that, you'd almost certainly notice it because they're on opposite sides of the airport! If you miss something that obvious, you probably shouldn't be piloting an airplane. When the Canarsie approach is in use, most aircraft use 13L which has a roughly continuous 45 degree bank almost all the way down to the threshold. If you are among the arrivals assigned to 13R, the difference is very noticeable, because you make a sharp 90 degree turn and are then lined up for a straight in approach all the way down to the threshold. Most pilots will pay special attention to this as the approaches are so dramatically different, especially for 13R, where using a 45 degree approach if uncorrected misses the runway completely and instead overflies the terminal and tower (not to be mistaken with the go around procedure for such a scenario which involves a sharp left to avoid the airport altogether before executing a missed approach). As a result, wrong runway incidents at JFK are extremely rare, although it should be noted that there was one incident in early December 2017 involving Volaris which was cleared to land on Runway 13L, but lined up for 13R where an another aircraft was cleared for departure. Evasive maneuvers were performed by the crew once they realized their mistake. However, such incidents at JFK are EXTREMELY rare; the last such incident was in 2010 with a 767 also mistaking 13R for 13L like Volaris, so the airport layout has nowhere near the potential of causing runway confusion in terms of frequency compared to SFO as such incidents practically occur once every 7 years. At SFO, it is amazingly easy to mistake one runway for the other if you are not 100% sure which one you're lined up for as the approach is completely identical for both and the runways look exactly the same with no distinguishing visual cues separating one from the other, even if visibility is clear and perfect. Depending on how strong the wind is, you actually could be flying the approach to the parallel all the way down practically until the final as they really are that close that they are within each other's margin of error on a gusty day. And this is hard enough during the day; at night, SFO is already a challenge for all of the same reasons listed above, in addition to it being at night. To be honest, I am pretty amazed that this kind of thing has not happened more frequently considering how underrated SFO is as a difficult airport for a pilot who doesn't fly there regularly. If these kinds of mistakes can be made during a clear day, I shudder to think what will happen if the same mistake is made at night. The first Air Canada incident was saved purely because a UA pilot waiting in the taxiway queue looking straight AT Air Canada saw it heading for them and reported it to ATC; at night, this incident could very well have been an actual collision considering ATC wouldn't have been able to make it out from their vantage point and VX was lined up for takeoff so they would never have noticed it as both AM and VX were facing the same direction.
 
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Re: Aeromexico Nearly Lands on Wrong Runway at SFO

Thu Jan 11, 2018 7:52 am

fly4ever78 wrote:
One reason for these incidents is the fact that the FAA has allowed visual approaches to 28L/R below their own minimum standards for parallel runways separation limits. This does not negate the responsibility for the pilots to make sure they are lined up for the correct runway, but it obviously allows for higher odds of these types of incidents to occur. I don't know the specifics of this particular incident, but throw in some inoperative equipment (which is commonplace) and it is very easy to line up for the wrong runway.


Actually no, it's not.

Why this happens, I can't easily explain.

Left. Right. It's simple rule...........
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TOGA10
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Re: Aeromexico Nearly Lands on Wrong Runway at SFO

Thu Jan 11, 2018 9:25 am

Maybe just stick with ILS approaches instead of visuals. Much harder to mix those up, might slow down the traffic rate. I know it is less fun to fly, but shouldn't safety come before 'fun'? Do visuals at quieter, more straight forward airports.
In Amsterdam, when both 18R and 18C are in use, the controllers even double check you have the right frequency set for the approach. Makes mixing them up even harder.
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Re: Aeromexico Nearly Lands on Wrong Runway at SFO

Thu Jan 11, 2018 9:44 am

DarthLobster wrote:
According to FlightAware this flight arrived at SFO at noon, visibility 8 miles. This one might just be on the flight crew.


No accident ever has a single cause.

Without even knowing the circumstance of this case, clearly organizational and environmental factors are contributing to the situation of runway mishaps @SFO. If not, it wouldn't happen regularly.

It would be interesting to know if that was a Visual approach (relatively easy to approach the wrong runway of two very narrowly spaced ones) or an ILS (where you should clearly see the deviation to the localizer, if you haven't tuned the wrong ILS).
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readytotaxi
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Re: Aeromexico Nearly Lands on Wrong Runway at SFO

Thu Jan 11, 2018 10:30 am

Okay, rename runway 28R to Doris and end the confussion. :bouncy:

"VX101 cleared to land on Doris."
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Nicoeddf
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Re: Aeromexico Nearly Lands on Wrong Runway at SFO

Thu Jan 11, 2018 10:51 am

readytotaxi wrote:
Okay, rename runway 28R to Doris and end the confussion. :bouncy:

"VX101 cleared to land on Doris."


And would you recommend a more firm or a more gentle touchdown on Doris?
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barney captain
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Re: Aeromexico Nearly Lands on Wrong Runway at SFO

Thu Jan 11, 2018 11:04 am

Nicoeddf wrote:
barney captain wrote:
fly4ever78 wrote:
One reason for these incidents is the fact that the FAA has allowed visual approaches to 28L/R below their own minimum standards for parallel runways separation limits. This does not negate the responsibility for the pilots to make sure they are lined up for the correct runway, but it obviously allows for higher odds of these types of incidents to occur. I don't know the specifics of this particular incident, but throw in some inoperative equipment (which is commonplace) and it is very easy to line up for the wrong runway.


Actually no, it's not.

Why this happens, I can't easily explain.

Left. Right. It's simple rule...........


It's not that simple, Barney. It's also a very simple rule how to escape a stall, for example, and still we see major fuck ups by flight crew.
So clearly, as already stated in my post above, environmental and organizational factors are at play in strengthening the odds of a flight crew to make a mistake. And fly4ever78 has pointed out one of those contributing factors.


I've landed in SFO more times than I can count, and beyond a simple misunderstanding between left and right, it isn't any more hazardous than any other approach wrt being clear as to which piece of pavement you are to land on.
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Nicoeddf
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Re: Aeromexico Nearly Lands on Wrong Runway at SFO

Thu Jan 11, 2018 11:06 am

Nobody is saying, it is hazardous. And while I have no doubt to believe you, that you never had any problems there, apparently there are crews who face difficulties in differentiating the runways. That is evident by the amount of recent mishaps

So whats wrong in analysing what could be done better to help crews avoid that mistake? Isn't that fairly standard and good procedure in the industry?
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Re: Aeromexico Nearly Lands on Wrong Runway at SFO

Thu Jan 11, 2018 2:45 pm

neomax wrote:
“Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me. Fool me three times, shame on both of us.”

At this point, SFO is just as guilty of not doing anything to prevent this problem, even if the pilots are the ones who messed up. This is third time we've had a runway related miss at SFO in less than 6 months with the same runway. Normally, the third time is the strike (Yikes!) and I don't think most people realize how insanely lucky SFO has had it lately.


There was Air Canada and this one. What was the third one?
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DarthLobster
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Re: Aeromexico Nearly Lands on Wrong Runway at SFO

Thu Jan 11, 2018 2:49 pm

Nicoeddf wrote:
DarthLobster wrote:
According to FlightAware this flight arrived at SFO at noon, visibility 8 miles. This one might just be on the flight crew.


No accident ever has a single cause.


If there had actually been an accident, this would be true.

In this case, which was likely a visual approach, the causal factors could well lie entirely with the crew. Now, you can break that down further into possible CRM issues, faulty AMX procedures, language barriers, distractions, fatigue, etc. But based on the information that’s been released so far, the issue of lining up with the wrong runway on a visual seems to rest with the flight crew. SFO ATC did their job by directing a go around (which they do frequently) when they noticed something amiss. Unless this is another case of out of service runway equipment, I fail to see where the blame rests with SFO on this one.
 
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Re: Aeromexico Nearly Lands on Wrong Runway at SFO

Thu Jan 11, 2018 3:12 pm

hOMSaR wrote:
neomax wrote:
“Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me. Fool me three times, shame on both of us.”

At this point, SFO is just as guilty of not doing anything to prevent this problem, even if the pilots are the ones who messed up. This is third time we've had a runway related miss at SFO in less than 6 months with the same runway. Normally, the third time is the strike (Yikes!) and I don't think most people realize how insanely lucky SFO has had it lately.


There was Air Canada and this one. What was the third one?


There was a second Air Canada event.

https://www.mercurynews.com/2017/10/23/ ... up-at-sfo/
 
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TWA302
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Re: Aeromexico Nearly Lands on Wrong Runway at SFO

Thu Jan 11, 2018 3:16 pm

hOMSaR wrote:
neomax wrote:
“Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me. Fool me three times, shame on both of us.”

At this point, SFO is just as guilty of not doing anything to prevent this problem, even if the pilots are the ones who messed up. This is third time we've had a runway related miss at SFO in less than 6 months with the same runway. Normally, the third time is the strike (Yikes!) and I don't think most people realize how insanely lucky SFO has had it lately.


There was Air Canada and this one. What was the third one?


Air Canada :stirthepot:
 
polywad6963
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Re: Aeromexico Nearly Lands on Wrong Runway at SFO

Thu Jan 11, 2018 3:27 pm

Nicoeddf wrote:
readytotaxi wrote:
Okay, rename runway 28R to Doris and end the confussion. :bouncy:

"VX101 cleared to land on Doris."


And would you recommend a more firm or a more gentle touchdown on Doris?


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Re: Aeromexico Nearly Lands on Wrong Runway at SFO

Thu Jan 11, 2018 4:48 pm

BoeingGuy wrote:
hOMSaR wrote:
neomax wrote:
“Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me. Fool me three times, shame on both of us.”

At this point, SFO is just as guilty of not doing anything to prevent this problem, even if the pilots are the ones who messed up. This is third time we've had a runway related miss at SFO in less than 6 months with the same runway. Normally, the third time is the strike (Yikes!) and I don't think most people realize how insanely lucky SFO has had it lately.


There was Air Canada and this one. What was the third one?


There was a second Air Canada event.

https://www.mercurynews.com/2017/10/23/ ... up-at-sfo/


Okay, I missed that one. But that doesn't seem like a "runway-related" issue but rather a communications issue. Apparently AC's radio failed just after landing clearance. Could happen at any airport, regardless of runway configuration.
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AF773
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Re: Aeromexico Nearly Lands on Wrong Runway at SFO

Thu Jan 11, 2018 5:07 pm

neomax wrote:
Runway28L wrote:
What exactly is the problem with 28R and 28L at SFO? Are they too close together or are there other issues such as the ILS for both?

Apologies if this is a dumb question.


I mean, you tell me. It wouldn't be a dumb question if it weren't for your username. :rotfl:


:lol: :lol: :lol: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:

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Re: Aeromexico Nearly Lands on Wrong Runway at SFO

Thu Jan 11, 2018 5:29 pm

AF773 wrote:
neomax wrote:
Runway28L wrote:
What exactly is the problem with 28R and 28L at SFO? Are they too close together or are there other issues such as the ILS for both?

Apologies if this is a dumb question.


I mean, you tell me. It wouldn't be a dumb question if it weren't for your username. :rotfl:


:lol: :lol: :lol: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:

You just won the internet!!



You obviously have not seen Runway28L's reply yet, which is also pretty brilliant . . .
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N212R
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Re: Aeromexico Nearly Lands on Wrong Runway at SFO

Thu Jan 11, 2018 6:09 pm

neomax wrote:
At SFO, it is amazingly easy to mistake one runway for the other if you are not 100% sure which one you're lined up for as the approach...


If it was so "amazingly easy" to mistake runways, how have the parallels at SFO managed to operate safely all these decades? I'm not discounting safety one iota, but isn't it the pilots job to be 100% sure of which runways they're lined up for? Me thinks the problem is more the grey matter up front than the grey asphalt on the runways.
 
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Re: Aeromexico Nearly Lands on Wrong Runway at SFO

Thu Jan 11, 2018 6:21 pm

hOMSaR wrote:
BoeingGuy wrote:
hOMSaR wrote:

There was Air Canada and this one. What was the third one?


There was a second Air Canada event.



Okay, I missed that one. But that doesn't seem like a "runway-related" issue but rather a communications issue. Apparently AC's radio failed just after landing clearance. Could happen at any airport, regardless of runway configuration.


Really, really good point, hOMSaR. So all of the breathless cries of "THREE TIMES IN 6 MONTHS AT SFO!!!!!!!" are just alarmist. Two in 6 mo does seem odd, in my completely uninformed opinion, but probably only odd enough to engender a little extra scrutiny of some sort. Were the AC & AM PICs & FOs all four less-experienced with SFO?

In any case, the sky seems NOT to be falling.....whew.
 
GoSteelers
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Re: Aeromexico Nearly Lands on Wrong Runway at SFO

Thu Jan 11, 2018 6:33 pm

This happens more than you think everywhere; not just SFO. The fact that you don’t hear about every single one means people are doing their jobs.
 
71Zulu
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Re: Aeromexico Nearly Lands on Wrong Runway at SFO

Thu Jan 11, 2018 6:42 pm

Set the runway localizer in your NAV radio and you have mostly eliminated the chance of this happening, why isn't this a required procedure?

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Re: Aeromexico Nearly Lands on Wrong Runway at SFO

Thu Jan 11, 2018 6:51 pm

N212R wrote:
neomax wrote:
At SFO, it is amazingly easy to mistake one runway for the other if you are not 100% sure which one you're lined up for as the approach...


If it was so "amazingly easy" to mistake runways, how have the parallels at SFO managed to operate safely all these decades? I'm not discounting safety one iota, but isn't it the pilots job to be 100% sure of which runways they're lined up for? Me thinks the problem is more the grey matter up front than the grey asphalt on the runways.

Something is off to have 3 incidents in 6 months. Frequency of incidents is a leading indicator...

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Re: Aeromexico Nearly Lands on Wrong Runway at SFO

Thu Jan 11, 2018 6:53 pm

It seems like one of the simplest solutions would be to implement an RNAV Visual approach procedure, which would be able to provide the desired offset approach while still providing lateral and vertical guidance all the way to the runway. Boston has them, LaGuardia has them, Orlando has them, Vegas has them. Why not SFO?
 
Chasensfo
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Re: Aeromexico Nearly Lands on Wrong Runway at SFO

Thu Jan 11, 2018 7:01 pm

I witnessed this, it was total non-event. They were cleared for the right, lined up with the left, no other landing planes anywhere near them, they went around, landed. That was the second go around in 10-15 minutes(the other plane was too high couldn't get down). They happen several times per day at SFO due to the challenges of the configuation, liklihood of a TCAS alert, and the slam dunk arrival that makes it hard for planes to descend/slow down to get on profile.

Planes lining up with the wrong runway, and correcting, happens a LOT more often than people in this thread seem to think. And it is almost always a non-event and caught by either the crew or ATC. Stuff that would be a lot more interesting to the public happens nearly everyday at many, if not most, major airports. Very silly how this becomes a news story when it was non-event to those involved sans the extra time/fuel the go-around caused.

lightsaber wrote:
N212R wrote:
neomax wrote:
At SFO, it is amazingly easy to mistake one runway for the other if you are not 100% sure which one you're lined up for as the approach...


If it was so "amazingly easy" to mistake runways, how have the parallels at SFO managed to operate safely all these decades? I'm not discounting safety one iota, but isn't it the pilots job to be 100% sure of which runways they're lined up for? Me thinks the problem is more the grey matter up front than the grey asphalt on the runways.

Something is off to have 3 incidents in 6 months. Frequency of incidents is a leading indicator...

Lightsaber

1) Plane lines up with taxiway
2) Pilot hits the switch and changes frequencies and misses go-around instructions
3) Plane several miles out lines up with wrong runway and goes around.

Yeah. All related for sure. If that's all that happened in the last 6 months, I'd call it a good 6 months at a major airport.

The runways a very spread out at Denver, still happens there. Explain that.
 
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Re: Aeromexico Nearly Lands on Wrong Runway at SFO

Thu Jan 11, 2018 7:09 pm

DarthLobster wrote:
Nicoeddf wrote:
DarthLobster wrote:
According to FlightAware this flight arrived at SFO at noon, visibility 8 miles. This one might just be on the flight crew.


No accident ever has a single cause.


If there had actually been an accident, this would be true.

In this case, which was likely a visual approach, the causal factors could well lie entirely with the crew. Now, you can break that down further into possible CRM issues, faulty AMX procedures, language barriers, distractions, fatigue, etc. But based on the information that’s been released so far, the issue of lining up with the wrong runway on a visual seems to rest with the flight crew. SFO ATC did their job by directing a go around (which they do frequently) when they noticed something amiss. Unless this is another case of out of service runway equipment, I fail to see where the blame rests with SFO on this one.


Not sure if you are working professionally with accident/incident investigation in aviation.

First thing is: It doesn't matter an iota if the accident happened or nearly happened. If there is something to learn for future events, it shouldn't and isn't discarded in the real world.
Secondly: Focusing on one element alone (the crew in this case) won't do the trick and is, by the way, plain wrong. The crew is not making mistakes in some disconnected world. They made a mistake in the set of circumstance they were presented with. Fatigue and motivation might have played a role, but runway configuration and the selected visual approach created apparently circumstances, that enhanced the chance for this crew and others in the past, to fly to the wrong runway, or a taxiway.
Guess what, in FRA, as an example only, you don't have crews align for the wrong runway. Not because they are any better, but because the runway and approach configuration makes it so much more unlikely.

And by the way, to your last sentence: It is not about blaming. It is about understanding and enhancing safety.
Last edited by Nicoeddf on Thu Jan 11, 2018 7:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Nicoeddf
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Re: Aeromexico Nearly Lands on Wrong Runway at SFO

Thu Jan 11, 2018 7:11 pm

Not sure anyway, why everybody is so defensive. Crews make mistakes, so lets find out the contributing factors (runway configuration certainly one of them) and think about improvements, not passing blame...
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Re: Aeromexico Nearly Lands on Wrong Runway at SFO

Thu Jan 11, 2018 7:27 pm

Chasensfo wrote:
I witnessed this, it was total non-event. They were cleared for the right, lined up with the left, no other landing planes anywhere near them, they went around, landed. That was the second go around in 10-15 minutes(the other plane was too high couldn't get down). They happen several times per day at SFO due to the challenges of the configuation, liklihood of a TCAS alert, and the slam dunk arrival that makes it hard for planes to descend/slow down to get on profile.

Planes lining up with the wrong runway, and correcting, happens a LOT more often than people in this thread seem to think. And it is almost always a non-event and caught by either the crew or ATC. Stuff that would be a lot more interesting to the public happens nearly everyday at many, if not most, major airports. Very silly how this becomes a news story when it was non-event to those involved sans the extra time/fuel the go-around caused.

lightsaber wrote:
N212R wrote:

If it was so "amazingly easy" to mistake runways, how have the parallels at SFO managed to operate safely all these decades? I'm not discounting safety one iota, but isn't it the pilots job to be 100% sure of which runways they're lined up for? Me thinks the problem is more the grey matter up front than the grey asphalt on the runways.

Something is off to have 3 incidents in 6 months. Frequency of incidents is a leading indicator...

Lightsaber

1) Plane lines up with taxiway
2) Pilot hits the switch and changes frequencies and misses go-around instructions
3) Plane several miles out lines up with wrong runway and goes around.

Yeah. All related for sure. If that's all that happened in the last 6 months, I'd call it a good 6 months at a major airport.

The runways a very spread out at Denver, still happens there. Explain that.


If the frequency of these events is so high, does the FAA investigate all of them, even if they happen all the time?
 
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Re: Aeromexico Nearly Lands on Wrong Runway at SFO

Thu Jan 11, 2018 7:38 pm

Nicoeddf wrote:
Guess what, in FRA, as an example only, you don't have crews align for the wrong runway. Not because they are any better, but because the runway and approach configuration makes it so much more unlikely.


How often do you clear flights for a visual approach into FRA? Do you even have V/A in your PSS ;)
Langen generally are pretty good at making sure the right c/l is captured, but seeing as they are on the ILS it's easier to monitor...
 
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Re: Aeromexico Nearly Lands on Wrong Runway at SFO

Thu Jan 11, 2018 7:43 pm

KingOrGod wrote:
Nicoeddf wrote:
Guess what, in FRA, as an example only, you don't have crews align for the wrong runway. Not because they are any better, but because the runway and approach configuration makes it so much more unlikely.


How often do you clear flights for a visual approach into FRA? Do you even have V/A in your PSS ;)
Langen generally are pretty good at making sure the right c/l is captured, but seeing as they are on the ILS it's easier to monitor...


Not disagreeing. But I am anyway not trying to advocate "better or worse". I am just saying that different sets of circumstance lead to different sources for error. And runway configuration and (lack of) visual approaches are part of the game.
Hence, room for improvement would be different for FRA vs. SFO, say. *shrug*
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Re: Aeromexico Nearly Lands on Wrong Runway at SFO

Thu Jan 11, 2018 7:48 pm

Runway28L wrote:
What exactly is the problem with 28R and 28L at SFO? Are they too close together or are there other issues such as the ILS for both?

Apologies if this is a dumb question.


The issue is simply that SFO has a badly outdated runway configuration and needs another long runway with adequate separation. Any other city would have done this long ago but not in the Bay Area where the environmental whacko’s have all the power and have no interest in bringing SFO up to standard.
 
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Re: Aeromexico Nearly Lands on Wrong Runway at SFO

Thu Jan 11, 2018 7:56 pm

Mir wrote:
Nicoeddf wrote:
It would be interesting to know if that was a Visual approach (relatively easy to approach the wrong runway of two very narrowly spaced ones) or an ILS (where you should clearly see the deviation to the localizer, if you haven't tuned the wrong ILS).


Nothing prevents you from tuning the ILS frequency on a visual approach so that you can see your deviation from the localizer. It's mandatory for most carriers, and if you do so I find it very difficult to see how someone could end up lined up for the wrong runway.


I agree. But I find it equally difficult to see how Asiana crashed their perfectly working 777 or how Air France their A330. And yet it happened. And there are reasons for it. Not tuning in the localizer might be one of them.
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Re: Aeromexico Nearly Lands on Wrong Runway at SFO

Thu Jan 11, 2018 7:56 pm

Nicoeddf wrote:
It would be interesting to know if that was a Visual approach (relatively easy to approach the wrong runway of two very narrowly spaced ones) or an ILS (where you should clearly see the deviation to the localizer, if you haven't tuned the wrong ILS).


Nothing prevents you from tuning the ILS frequency on a visual approach so that you can see your deviation from the localizer. It's mandatory for most carriers, and if you do so I find it very difficult to see how someone could end up lined up for the wrong runway.
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Re: Aeromexico Nearly Lands on Wrong Runway at SFO

Thu Jan 11, 2018 8:06 pm

hOMSaR wrote:
neomax wrote:
“Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me. Fool me three times, shame on both of us.”

At this point, SFO is just as guilty of not doing anything to prevent this problem, even if the pilots are the ones who messed up. This is third time we've had a runway related miss at SFO in less than 6 months with the same runway. Normally, the third time is the strike (Yikes!) and I don't think most people realize how insanely lucky SFO has had it lately.


There was Air Canada and this one. What was the third one?


The first and second incidents both involved Air Canada.

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