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MoKa777
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Re: Upcoming operators of Airbus A350-1000XWB

Sat Jan 13, 2018 11:33 pm

zeke wrote:
Tell me since you are so good in criticizing, what percent higher block fuel will the 779 burn compared to the A350-1000 ?

You obviously must know to make the statements you are making ?


Aaah a.net...

I innocently challenged your statements. I made every effort to do so with humility, respect and admiration. In return, passive aggressive, sarcastic, snark remarks are thrown my way. This is a place to debate, discuss, challenge, educate, learn, and inform.

I am disappointed that you misread, misinterpreted and misrepresented my responses to your posts on this thread.

My respect and admiration for the knowledge you share here with all of us still stands.

Have a great day.

frigatebird wrote:
As Moka777 mentioned, the issue I have is with 25% difference between the A35K and 779. If this was the case, no decent airline would have ordered the 779, LH, QR and CX amongst will have done their maths and concluded it was worth ordering the 779 next to the A35K already on order.

@Moka777, thank you, you've kindly explained in detail the point I was trying to make, most likely a lot better than I could :)


Thank you and it is a pleasure.
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zeke
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Re: Upcoming operators of Airbus A350-1000XWB

Sun Jan 14, 2018 1:40 am

aviationaware wrote:
You neglect to mention the (at least) 30 more Y seats from 10-abreast seating vs 9 abreast seating in the A35J.

And as per load factor, and 80% load factor on yearly average means that there are plenty of times where the plane is filled to the last seat.


What is the yield are those seats going to achieve ?

History has shown that you can replace 744 with a 77W, yet we are to believe that an A350-1000 which is nearly exactly the same size of the 77W with much lower operating costs cannot do the job. I just cannot get over the logic (or lack of) some people apply here.

What I find amazing is there were MANY operators that replaced the 744 with the 77W profitably as many of the passengers they dropped were the low yield cheap fares. The lower operating costs of the 77W more than made up for the loss of revenue with fewer seats giving operators better overall yield.

Now I have stated I think the A350-1000 would be a very good 350 seat replacement for the LH 744 and A346 routes that need 350 seat aircraft, and I am being told it is too small. The opposite view is they should operate a larger aircraft with higher costs.

aviationaware wrote:
Par for par, which is the only thing that matters here, the 779 is significantly (as in more than a 10% total seats difference) larger than the A35J in a Lufthansa configuration. That's just a fact that no amount of squealing will turn invalid.


You do realize the ZFW of an A350-1000 with 350 passengers loaded is about the same weight as a 779 DOW ?

MoKa777 wrote:
I innocently challenged your statements. I made every effort to do so with humility, respect and admiration. In return, passive aggressive, sarcastic, snark remarks are thrown my way. This is a place to debate, discuss, challenge, educate, learn, and inform.

I am disappointed that you misread, misinterpreted and misrepresented my responses to your posts on this thread.


To challenge the statements you MUST have a different idea of what the fuel burn will be, if you don’t think it will be different we would be agreement.

All I asked you for is what you idea of the fuel burn will be, I am asking you to justify the claim you were making. I didn’t “misread, misinterpreted and misrepresented” your post, I wanted you to justify the position you took by stating what you think the fuel burn will be.

It is a very reasonable request, as you raised the point.


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aviationaware
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Re: Upcoming operators of Airbus A350-1000XWB

Sun Jan 14, 2018 10:57 am

zeke wrote:
You do realize the ZFW of an A350-1000 with 350 passengers loaded is about the same weight as a 779 DOW ?


We were discussing total passenger capacity, where exactly does ZFW/DOW/Any other weight metric go into that equation?
 
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zeke
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Re: Upcoming operators of Airbus A350-1000XWB

Sun Jan 14, 2018 12:07 pm

aviationaware wrote:
We were discussing total passenger capacity, where exactly does ZFW/DOW/Any other weight metric go into that equation?


Because history repeats itself. Many operators replaced the 744 with the 77W despite the 744 lifting 14% more passengers. The 744 was always at a disadvantage as it had around 9% higher empty weight, you could load around 150 passengers on 77W before you got the the empty weight of the 744.

Airlines just didn’t fly around with 100% full 744s, many were being used in the 350 seat market, and were easily replaced by the 77W and airlines generated more yield by doing so (however maybe lower passenger revenue). Airlines also found the 77W more flexible as it used less fuel than the 744 when low factors were low.

Now we have the A350-1000 in the 350 seat market, and the 777-9 in the 375 seat market, however you can basilly put 350 passengers into the A350-1000 before you get to the 777-9 empty weight. It means the fuel burn on the 777-9 will be higher than the A350-1000.

What airlines will need to decide is if the 350 or 375 seat aircraft is the correct size for their route structure, and if they will generate more yield from a 350 or 375 seat aircraft, and which provides them with more flexibility.
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mat66
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Re: Upcoming operators of Airbus A350-1000XWB

Sun Jan 14, 2018 1:17 pm

I looked at the aircraft characteristics pdf of the A35K and 779. The 779 is just 26cm longer between D1 and D2 and 21cm D2-D3 but has 196cm more in the rear cabin D3-D4. Then I took the only A35K seat map we have from cathay pacific at 46C 32W 256Y = 334.
https://www.cathaypacific.com/cx/en_HK/ ... /1000.html

Now I changed nothing for C and W from D1 to D3 for the 779, went 10 abreast and added 2 rows of Y in the back. I got 48 more Y seats because the last two rows on the 779 are 2-4-2. Total is 46C 32W 304Y = 382. That is almost the difference from cathay's A359 (280) to A35K (334). A small C cabin (8 seats) aft D2 would cost 4 rows of Y and you get 54C 32W 264Y = 350. I you add 6F you end up way below the A35K at about 300-320. Cathay's 779 will either be one step up from the A35K or have F, more C or both.
 
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zeke
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Re: Upcoming operators of Airbus A350-1000XWB

Sun Jan 14, 2018 1:43 pm

mat66 wrote:
I you add 6F you end up way below the A35K at about 300-320. Cathay's 779 will either be one step up from the A35K or have F, more C or both.


The current 4 class 77W seats fewer than the 3 class A350-900, I would also expect a 4 class 779 to seat fewer than a 3 class A350-1000.
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aviationaware
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Re: Upcoming operators of Airbus A350-1000XWB

Sun Jan 14, 2018 1:51 pm

zeke wrote:
Now we have the A350-1000 in the 350 seat market, and the 777-9 in the 375 seat market, however you can basilly put 350 passengers into the A350-1000 before you get to the 777-9 empty weight. It means the fuel burn on the 777-9 will be higher than the A350-1000.


So where exactly are we disagreeing? I said Lufthansa is rather likely to order the A35J at some point (or convert existing orders). You seem to agree that this would be rather a smart choice. But Lufthansa has already ordered the 779, so this is already past being an "or" choice, and bound to be an "and" decision.
 
ap305
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Re: Upcoming operators of Airbus A350-1000XWB

Sun Jan 14, 2018 1:55 pm

AF's CEO makes it clear that the a35k is very much an option for both AF and KL down the road...

http://zakenreis.nl/artikelen/jean-marc ... tief-zijn/
Racing, competing, is in my blood. It's part of me, it's part of my life; I've been doing it all my life. And it stands up before anything else- Ayrton Senna
 
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Jayafe
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Re: Upcoming operators of Airbus A350-1000XWB

Sun Jan 14, 2018 2:06 pm

ap305 wrote:
AF's CEO makes it clear that the a35k is very much an option for both AF and KL down the road...

http://zakenreis.nl/artikelen/jean-marc ... tief-zijn/


Just a matter of time that LH and BA get to the same conclusion.
 
ap305
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Re: Upcoming operators of Airbus A350-1000XWB

Sun Jan 14, 2018 2:23 pm

Jayafe wrote:
ap305 wrote:
AF's CEO makes it clear that the a35k is very much an option for both AF and KL down the road...

http://zakenreis.nl/artikelen/jean-marc ... tief-zijn/


Just a matter of time that LH and BA get to the same conclusion.


BA reached that conclusion a while back :)
Racing, competing, is in my blood. It's part of me, it's part of my life; I've been doing it all my life. And it stands up before anything else- Ayrton Senna
 
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MrHMSH
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Re: Upcoming operators of Airbus A350-1000XWB

Sun Jan 14, 2018 2:27 pm

I think the A35K will do OK, the A359 has taken up the bulk of the orders and revenue but that's OK.

I think the scope of the A359's base offers some optimism, there's a solid chance that plenty of A359 operators will want to grow traffic and the A35K fits perfectly. The massive 77W replacement market will take off in the future and Airbus will get its share, the A35K actually has a solid stable of customers even if the numbers aren't impressive.
 
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Polot
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Re: Upcoming operators of Airbus A350-1000XWB

Sun Jan 14, 2018 2:28 pm

zeke wrote:
mat66 wrote:
I you add 6F you end up way below the A35K at about 300-320. Cathay's 779 will either be one step up from the A35K or have F, more C or both.


The current 4 class 77W seats fewer than the 3 class A350-900, I would also expect a 4 class 779 to seat fewer than a 3 class A350-1000.

It will be fairly close. The current 4 class 77W is 9Y. I would not expect CX to stick to 9Y for the 779. Converting the current layout on the 77W to 10Y would add somewhere in the area of 15-20 seats alone, then there is the 779’s extra length and lack of overwong exits.
 
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Re: Upcoming operators of Airbus A350-1000XWB

Sun Jan 14, 2018 2:30 pm

Strato2 wrote:
If their traffic continues to grow I expect AY to convert some of the remaining 900's to 1000's.

Finnair considered A350-1000 last year but decided to keep the orders for only A350-900. Quite surely the traffic will continue growing for next years so I expect AY to order more A350s in the future (also to replace its A330s), a few of which might be A350-1000s. Also, Airbus A330neo is possible.
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mat66
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Re: Upcoming operators of Airbus A350-1000XWB

Sun Jan 14, 2018 2:52 pm

Polot wrote:
zeke wrote:
mat66 wrote:
I you add 6F you end up way below the A35K at about 300-320. Cathay's 779 will either be one step up from the A35K or have F, more C or both.


The current 4 class 77W seats fewer than the 3 class A350-900, I would also expect a 4 class 779 to seat fewer than a 3 class A350-1000.

It will be fairly close. The current 4 class 77W is 9Y. I would not expect CX to stick to 9Y for the 779. Converting the current layout on the 77W to 10Y would add somewhere in the area of 15-20 seats alone, then there is the 779’s extra length and lack of overwong exits.


current 4class 77W : 6F 53C 34W 182Y = 275
my guess for 779 : 6F 54C 32W 224Y = 316

But my point was of course to show that in 3class the 779 for Cathay compliments the 45-50 pax smaller 3 class A35K. Probably the same for any airline.
 
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Heavierthanair
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Re: Upcoming operators of Airbus A350-1000XWB

Sun Jan 14, 2018 3:26 pm

G'day

aviationaware wrote:
But Lufthansa has already ordered the 779


By the time Lufthansa were taking delivery of their first 747-8's they realized it was a dud. They had 747-8 commitments for 20 firm and 20 options and the easiest way to cancel the options was to order 779's instead. I doubt they would have selected the 779 at the time without the 748 issue at hand. Since LH ordered the 779 the specs have been "improved" to suit the ME3 airline requirements, so it will remain to be seen if LH will actually take delivery of those. :duck:

Cheers

Peter
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aviationaware
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Re: Upcoming operators of Airbus A350-1000XWB

Sun Jan 14, 2018 3:30 pm

We shouldn't drift into making believe that ordering the 779 or the A35J is an anomaly, Cathay has done it and other airlines will follow.
 
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zeke
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Re: Upcoming operators of Airbus A350-1000XWB

Sun Jan 14, 2018 3:43 pm

Heavierthanair wrote:
By the time Lufthansa were taking delivery of their first 747-8's they realized it was a dud. They had 747-8 commitments for 20 firm and 20 options and the easiest way to cancel the options was to order 779's instead. I doubt they would have selected the 779 at the time without the 748 issue at hand. Since LH ordered the 779 the specs have been "improved" to suit the ME3 airline requirements, so it will remain to be seen if LH will actually take delivery of those.


I don’t see LH operating both the 747-8i and the 779 side by side, either one or the other.

The LH 787-8i routes are not the long, except for FRA-EZE

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Strato2
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Re: Upcoming operators of Airbus A350-1000XWB

Sun Jan 14, 2018 3:55 pm

QuawerAir wrote:
Strato2 wrote:
If their traffic continues to grow I expect AY to convert some of the remaining 900's to 1000's.

Finnair considered A350-1000 last year but decided to keep the orders for only A350-900. Quite surely the traffic will continue growing for next years so I expect AY to order more A350s in the future (also to replace its A330s), a few of which might be A350-1000s. Also, Airbus A330neo is possible.


Where did you get the info that any decision has been made?
 
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QuawerAir
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Re: Upcoming operators of Airbus A350-1000XWB

Sun Jan 14, 2018 4:19 pm

Strato2 wrote:
QuawerAir wrote:
Strato2 wrote:
If their traffic continues to grow I expect AY to convert some of the remaining 900's to 1000's.

Finnair considered A350-1000 last year but decided to keep the orders for only A350-900. Quite surely the traffic will continue growing for next years so I expect AY to order more A350s in the future (also to replace its A330s), a few of which might be A350-1000s. Also, Airbus A330neo is possible.


Where did you get the info that any decision has been made?

Here, but unfortunately, it is in German:


Sie könnten die Kapazitäten auch erhöhen, indem Sie bei den acht bestellten, aber noch nicht ausgelieferten Airbus A350 von der kleineren Variante -900 auf die größere -1000 wechseln würden. Ist das ein Thema?
Wir haben diese Option geprüft. Wir haben uns aber entschieden, dass wir beim A350-900 bleiben. Wir haben zwei unterschiedlich konfigurierte Versionen im Einsatz, eine mit 297 und eine mit 336 Plätzen. Das ist ideal für unsere Bedürfnisse. Wir haben damit genug Alternativen.

aerotelegraph.com

In English:
You could also increase capacity by switching from the smaller version -900 to the larger -1000 for the eight ordered but not yet delivered Airbus A350s. Is that an issue?
"We have checked this option. But we decided to stay with the A350-900. We have two differently configured versions in use, one with 297 and one with 336 seats. This is ideal for our needs. We have enough alternatives."

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frigatebird
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Re: Upcoming operators of Airbus A350-1000XWB

Sun Jan 14, 2018 5:57 pm

ap305 wrote:
AF's CEO makes it clear that the a35k is very much an option for both AF and KL down the road...

http://zakenreis.nl/artikelen/jean-marc ... tief-zijn/

Thank you for that article. I'll try to translate into English the part regarding the A350:

"Q: KLM has the 787-9 in its fleet, AF will receive the A350 in 2019. Will this be the fixed distribution between the airlines?
J.M. Janaillac: We haven't reached this conclusion yet, because the orders are not yet complete. Concerning Airbus, in the future we may opt for the A350-1000 too, next to the -900. KLM will get the 787-10 in 2019 as planned now. But the A350-1000 is considerably larger than the 787-10, and then the Airbus is certainly an option for KLM too."

If these were his exact words (and you never know with these interviews, certainly with the possibilty of something getting lost in translation), coupled with a recent interview wit P. Elbers, CEO of KLM where he indicated the timing of the A350 deliveries may become different, my conclusion is that KLM will NOT get the A350-900 anytime soon. Certainly not starting in 2020, as was planned earlier. I believe KL will eventually get the A35K instead, with A359s initially destined for KL going to Joon. But AF/KL will have to exercise some A350 options before we will see A35K's going to KL.
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Continental767
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Re: Upcoming operators of Airbus A350-1000XWB

Sun Jan 14, 2018 6:49 pm

Heavierthanair wrote:
G'day

aviationaware wrote:
But Lufthansa has already ordered the 779


By the time Lufthansa were taking delivery of their first 747-8's they realized it was a dud. They had 747-8 commitments for 20 firm and 20 options and the easiest way to cancel the options was to order 779's instead. I doubt they would have selected the 779 at the time without the 748 issue at hand. Since LH ordered the 779 the specs have been "improved" to suit the ME3 airline requirements, so it will remain to be seen if LH will actually take delivery of those. :duck:

Cheers

Peter


I'd imagine LH will still take delivery of the 779s. They need to replace the 744s, and eventually the 748s and A380s. The 779 is the perfect bird to replace those Jumbo's. In addition, they already came out with a new business class seat that will debut on the 779.
Indianapolis.
 
mig17
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Re: Upcoming operators of Airbus A350-1000XWB

Sun Jan 14, 2018 9:21 pm

frigatebird wrote:
ap305 wrote:
AF's CEO makes it clear that the a35k is very much an option for both AF and KL down the road...

http://zakenreis.nl/artikelen/jean-marc ... tief-zijn/

Thank you for that article. I'll try to translate into English the part regarding the A350:

"Q: KLM has the 787-9 in its fleet, AF will receive the A350 in 2019. Will this be the fixed distribution between the airlines?
J.M. Janaillac: We haven't reached this conclusion yet, because the orders are not yet complete. Concerning Airbus, in the future we may opt for the A350-1000 too, next to the -900. KLM will get the 787-10 in 2019 as planned now. But the A350-1000 is considerably larger than the 787-10, and then the Airbus is certainly an option for KLM too."

If these were his exact words (and you never know with these interviews, certainly with the possibilty of something getting lost in translation), coupled with a recent interview wit P. Elbers, CEO of KLM where he indicated the timing of the A350 deliveries may become different, my conclusion is that KLM will NOT get the A350-900 anytime soon. Certainly not starting in 2020, as was planned earlier. I believe KL will eventually get the A35K instead, with A359s initially destined for KL going to Joon. But AF/KL will have to exercise some A350 options before we will see A35K's going to KL.

AF is phasing out it's 9 remaining A343, replacing them with 789. Then, the oldest widebodies in AF fleet will be the 25 772 (all between 16 and 19 years now) which will be replaced by the 3 more 789 and 21 A359 (I know, that is only 24 ...) they have on order. At least 4 of those A359 being transfered to Joon in the process.
KLM right now is replacing 747 by 789 and 781 and it's 772 are a little younger.

It is only after 2024-2025 that the AF A332, the firsts AF 77W, the KLM 772 and the firsts KLM A333 will need replacement if we considere a 20 years old limit. Then we will see more 787 -9 and -10 and A350 900 and 1000 ordered.

2 notes:
- Both AF and KLM have some "brand new" 77W so the type is not living soon but will be gradually replaced over a 10 to 15 year period.
- Is the 789 not to big to replace A332 at AF?
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Slug71
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Re: Upcoming operators of Airbus A350-1000XWB

Sun Jan 14, 2018 9:29 pm

Continental767 wrote:
Heavierthanair wrote:
G'day

aviationaware wrote:
But Lufthansa has already ordered the 779


By the time Lufthansa were taking delivery of their first 747-8's they realized it was a dud. They had 747-8 commitments for 20 firm and 20 options and the easiest way to cancel the options was to order 779's instead. I doubt they would have selected the 779 at the time without the 748 issue at hand. Since LH ordered the 779 the specs have been "improved" to suit the ME3 airline requirements, so it will remain to be seen if LH will actually take delivery of those. :duck:

Cheers

Peter


I'd imagine LH will still take delivery of the 779s. They need to replace the 744s, and eventually the 748s and A380s. The 779 is the perfect bird to replace those Jumbo's. In addition, they already came out with a new business class seat that will debut on the 779.


Probably, else there'd be penalties to pay.
779 will be a big step down in terms of capacity from the 748 and A380s though. By no means perfect if they need the capacity.
 
mig17
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Re: Upcoming operators of Airbus A350-1000XWB

Sun Jan 14, 2018 9:43 pm

Slug71 wrote:
Continental767 wrote:
Heavierthanair wrote:
G'day



By the time Lufthansa were taking delivery of their first 747-8's they realized it was a dud. They had 747-8 commitments for 20 firm and 20 options and the easiest way to cancel the options was to order 779's instead. I doubt they would have selected the 779 at the time without the 748 issue at hand. Since LH ordered the 779 the specs have been "improved" to suit the ME3 airline requirements, so it will remain to be seen if LH will actually take delivery of those. :duck:

Cheers

Peter


I'd imagine LH will still take delivery of the 779s. They need to replace the 744s, and eventually the 748s and A380s. The 779 is the perfect bird to replace those Jumbo's. In addition, they already came out with a new business class seat that will debut on the 779.


Probably, else there'd be penalties to pay.
779 will be a big step down in terms of capacity from the 748 and A380s though. By no means perfect if they need the capacity.

Or convert into 787 -9 and -10 to replace 17 A343 then some of the 19 A333. But the 779 is close to the 748 as a replacement. Not the capacity of an A380 so.
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JamesCousins
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Re: Upcoming operators of Airbus A350-1000XWB

Sun Jan 14, 2018 10:52 pm

Jerry123 wrote:
CRJ900 wrote:
Air Caraïbes has three A350-1000 coming in 2020, each with a whopping 439 seats :O

That may entice Thomas Cook, TUI, Condor etc to order a few for heavy charter destinations...

I'd say Thomas Cook would go for the A330 900 rather than the A350. I just think the A350 1000 would be too big an aircraft for them.
For TUI they seem to be happily an all Boeing fleet so more than likely they'd go for the 787 10 but I think they'll stick with the 789.
The operators that do high density to the sun in the UK is Virgin Atlantic and BA and both have the 1000 on order but I don't think we'll see a high density BA one though imo.


+1. I think Thomas Cook will like the fleet commonality of the 330neo, and the 350 will be a bit large, agree with your point on the 787 too. I think we might see more TUI 787-9s, but the -10, probably not. I think they'd have too much of a challenge filling it in the down season, though it might work at LGW. I believe VS are splitting their 350 to a business & leisure fleet, the latter with more economy (as long as they don't go 10-abreast, though I don't see this happening)
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Slug71
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Re: Upcoming operators of Airbus A350-1000XWB

Sun Jan 14, 2018 10:56 pm

mig17 wrote:
Slug71 wrote:
Continental767 wrote:

I'd imagine LH will still take delivery of the 779s. They need to replace the 744s, and eventually the 748s and A380s. The 779 is the perfect bird to replace those Jumbo's. In addition, they already came out with a new business class seat that will debut on the 779.


Probably, else there'd be penalties to pay.
779 will be a big step down in terms of capacity from the 748 and A380s though. By no means perfect if they need the capacity.

Or convert into 787 -9 and -10 to replace 17 A343 then some of the 19 A333. But the 779 is close to the 748 as a replacement. Not the capacity of an A380 so.


Their 748s and A380s have plenty of mileage left in them. It wouldn't surprise me if at least part of the order is converted to 787s though. For exactly as you mention.

And replace the rest of the A346s with A35Ks.
 
mig17
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Re: Upcoming operators of Airbus A350-1000XWB

Sun Jan 14, 2018 11:32 pm

Slug71 wrote:
mig17 wrote:
Slug71 wrote:

Probably, else there'd be penalties to pay.
779 will be a big step down in terms of capacity from the 748 and A380s though. By no means perfect if they need the capacity.

Or convert into 787 -9 and -10 to replace 17 A343 then some of the 19 A333. But the 779 is close to the 748 as a replacement. Not the capacity of an A380 so.


Their 748s and A380s have plenty of mileage left in them. It wouldn't surprise me if at least part of the order is converted to 787s though. For exactly as you mention.

And replace the rest of the A346s with A35Ks.

"And replace the rest of the A346s with A35Ks" => The A359 is replacing A346. The A35K would be better replacing the 744. But we are in agrement.
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Slug71
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Re: Upcoming operators of Airbus A350-1000XWB

Sun Jan 14, 2018 11:37 pm

mig17 wrote:
Slug71 wrote:
mig17 wrote:
Or convert into 787 -9 and -10 to replace 17 A343 then some of the 19 A333. But the 779 is close to the 748 as a replacement. Not the capacity of an A380 so.


Their 748s and A380s have plenty of mileage left in them. It wouldn't surprise me if at least part of the order is converted to 787s though. For exactly as you mention.

And replace the rest of the A346s with A35Ks.

"And replace the rest of the A346s with A35Ks" => The A359 is replacing A346. The A35K would be better replacing the 744. But we are in agrement.


I thought the A359s were only partially replacing the A346 with the 779 replacing the rest and the 744s?
 
mig17
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Re: Upcoming operators of Airbus A350-1000XWB

Sun Jan 14, 2018 11:52 pm

Slug71 wrote:
mig17 wrote:
Slug71 wrote:

Their 748s and A380s have plenty of mileage left in them. It wouldn't surprise me if at least part of the order is converted to 787s though. For exactly as you mention.

And replace the rest of the A346s with A35Ks.

"And replace the rest of the A346s with A35Ks" => The A359 is replacing A346. The A35K would be better replacing the 744. But we are in agrement.


I thought the A359s were only partially replacing the A346 with the 779 replacing the rest and the 744s?

Yes that is the current plan. Even if I don't understand the partially since they have more A359 on order than A346 ...
What I mean is if they would swap their 20 779 to 35-40 787, some A35K would be a better fit to replace the 744. Their futur fleet would be 787, A350, 748 & A380. (4 types, only 2 with 4 engine)
With the current plan, it will be A333, A343, A359, 748, A388 & 779. (6 types, 3 with 4 engine)
Except to replace the 748 if they want to keep a 1st class, the 779 doesn't make sense and since the 748 will still be flying for a wile I don't see LH need.
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memphiX
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Re: Upcoming operators of Airbus A350-1000XWB

Mon Jan 15, 2018 2:56 am

What about VN?
I read somewhere that they were working on their CAT 1 rating and planned to fly to the US by the end of this year.I am sure that their -900's can handle SGN-LAX. But is there any chance that they will firm on their options and convert some or all of them to -1000?
 
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Re: Upcoming operators of Airbus A350-1000XWB

Mon Jan 15, 2018 3:21 am

mig17 wrote:
Slug71 wrote:
mig17 wrote:
"And replace the rest of the A346s with A35Ks" => The A359 is replacing A346. The A35K would be better replacing the 744. But we are in agrement.


I thought the A359s were only partially replacing the A346 with the 779 replacing the rest and the 744s?

Yes that is the current plan. Even if I don't understand the partially since they have more A359 on order than A346 ...
What I mean is if they would swap their 20 779 to 35-40 787, some A35K would be a better fit to replace the 744. Their futur fleet would be 787, A350, 748 & A380. (4 types, only 2 with 4 engine)
With the current plan, it will be A333, A343, A359, 748, A388 & 779. (6 types, 3 with 4 engine)
Except to replace the 748 if they want to keep a 1st class, the 779 doesn't make sense and since the 748 will still be flying for a wile I don't see LH need.


Agreed.
 
RainerBoeing777
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Re: Upcoming operators of Airbus A350-1000XWB

Wed Jun 20, 2018 3:40 am

With the approach of the Farnborough International Airshow, the incorporation of the Airbus A350-1000XWB to the fleets of Qatar Airways and Cathay Pacific, what are the next expectations? a pity that United will change again to the A350-900, I see a strong potential in Qantas, China Airlines, Ethiopian Airlines and Philippine Airlines as next customers of this model, it is undoubtedly a very elegant and efficient model excellent for ultra long range missions, I hope that a future more airlines add this marvel of aircraft to their fleets
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MoKa777
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Re: Upcoming operators of Airbus A350-1000XWB

Wed Jun 20, 2018 11:37 am

RainerBoeing777 wrote:
With the approach of the Farnborough International Airshow, the incorporation of the Airbus A350-1000XWB to the fleets of Qatar Airways and Cathay Pacific, what are the next expectations? a pity that United will change again to the A350-900, I see a strong potential in Qantas, China Airlines, Ethiopian Airlines and Philippine Airlines as next customers of this model, it is undoubtedly a very elegant and efficient model excellent for ultra long range missions, I hope that a future more airlines add this marvel of aircraft to their fleets


I agree with you 100%!

Interest must be very high due to the A350-1000 exceeding expectations.

Only thing that will likely hold back orders is the fact that the global 77W fleet is still young, fuel prices are still relatively manageable and the A350 backlog and production ramp-up.

After 2020 though, orders will most definitely pick up.
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keesje
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Re: Upcoming operators of Airbus A350-1000XWB

Wed Jun 20, 2018 3:21 pm

I think we shouldn't read to much in the -900/-1000 order seperation. Hundreds of 787-8s, 737-700s and A320s were converted into bigger versions over the years. Apparently airlines reserve slots and can decide x months before delivery what they want. Have to pay some extra too :wink2:
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
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Momo1435
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Re: Upcoming operators of Airbus A350-1000XWB

Wed Jun 20, 2018 3:27 pm

keesje wrote:
I think we shouldn't read to much in the -900/-1000 order seperation. Hundreds of 787-8s, 737-700s and A320s were converted into bigger versions over the years. Apparently airlines reserve slots and can decide x months before delivery what they want. Have to pay some extra too :wink2:
With those other models there were also a lot of new orders for the bigger versions. That is not so much the case right now for the A350-1000. Maybe when we will see more new orders the next couple of years. Until then the majority of the current outstanding orders will in my opinion be delivered as A350-900s.
 
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keesje
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Re: Upcoming operators of Airbus A350-1000XWB

Wed Jun 20, 2018 3:37 pm

I believe 2018-19 BA, JAL, Virgin and Asiana wll introduce A350-1000's. BA & JAL might even order some more.
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
neutronstar73
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Re: Upcoming operators of Airbus A350-1000XWB

Wed Jun 20, 2018 3:38 pm

frigatebird wrote:
@Zeke, of course the 779 will burn more fuel than the A35K. But tell us how you came to this 25% please.


Zeke, I think you are being way optimistic in thinking a 777-9 will be at a 25% fuel burn disadvantage to the A350-1000. What you are basically saying is that Boeing and GE have made NO TECHNICAL ADVANCEMENTS in the last 20 years while Airbus and RR have, so the 777-9 is no better than a 77W.

That's a pretty bold presumption to make, and quite wrong.
 
CRJ900
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Re: Upcoming operators of Airbus A350-1000XWB

Wed Jun 20, 2018 5:23 pm

I hope Airbus will use the Air Caraïbes 439-seat A350-1000 in airshows - to show how big the aircraft is inside.
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EddieDude
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Re: Upcoming operators of Airbus A350-1000XWB

Wed Jun 20, 2018 6:01 pm

Much has been discussed in this thread about IB, but I think it would make sense for them to get a few -1000s even if their -900s are already very dense and their policy seems to be preferring frequency over size.

I wonder if VS will place a follow on order in the future. The growth of their partnership with DL, AF and KL (plus 9W?), the retirement of the A346s and 744s, and the congestion at LHR perhaps will result in the need for more planes larger than the 789/A333.
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mjoelnir
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Re: Upcoming operators of Airbus A350-1000XWB

Wed Jun 20, 2018 8:43 pm

MoKa777 wrote:
RainerBoeing777 wrote:
With the approach of the Farnborough International Airshow, the incorporation of the Airbus A350-1000XWB to the fleets of Qatar Airways and Cathay Pacific, what are the next expectations? a pity that United will change again to the A350-900, I see a strong potential in Qantas, China Airlines, Ethiopian Airlines and Philippine Airlines as next customers of this model, it is undoubtedly a very elegant and efficient model excellent for ultra long range missions, I hope that a future more airlines add this marvel of aircraft to their fleets


I agree with you 100%!

Interest must be very high due to the A350-1000 exceeding expectations.

Only thing that will likely hold back orders is the fact that the global 77W fleet is still young, fuel prices are still relatively manageable and the A350 backlog and production ramp-up.

After 2020 though, orders will most definitely pick up.


The global 777-300ER fleet is young, but if the oil price should rise, they could see early replacement. The fuel burn difference between a 777-300ER and an A350-1000 is about double the difference between a 777-300ER and a A340-600.
 
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Polot
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Re: Upcoming operators of Airbus A350-1000XWB

Wed Jun 20, 2018 9:04 pm

mjoelnir wrote:
MoKa777 wrote:
RainerBoeing777 wrote:
With the approach of the Farnborough International Airshow, the incorporation of the Airbus A350-1000XWB to the fleets of Qatar Airways and Cathay Pacific, what are the next expectations? a pity that United will change again to the A350-900, I see a strong potential in Qantas, China Airlines, Ethiopian Airlines and Philippine Airlines as next customers of this model, it is undoubtedly a very elegant and efficient model excellent for ultra long range missions, I hope that a future more airlines add this marvel of aircraft to their fleets


I agree with you 100%!

Interest must be very high due to the A350-1000 exceeding expectations.

Only thing that will likely hold back orders is the fact that the global 77W fleet is still young, fuel prices are still relatively manageable and the A350 backlog and production ramp-up.

After 2020 though, orders will most definitely pick up.


The global 777-300ER fleet is young, but if the oil price should rise, they could see early replacement. The fuel burn difference between a 777-300ER and an A350-1000 is about double the difference between a 777-300ER and a A340-600.


If the oil prices rise significantly to cause early retirements there would probably be greater incentive to replace those 77Ws with smaller 789/A359s than equally sized A350-1000s....
 
eamondzhang
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Re: Upcoming operators of Airbus A350-1000XWB

Thu Jun 21, 2018 5:44 am

aviationaware wrote:
If the A35J and 779 were really in the same size class, Airbus would hardly have considered launching an A350-1100; and Lufthansa would hardly have taken contract terms that make it so easy to switch from 900 to 1000.

How do you know that LH has NOT written the easy switch option into the contract?
 
aviationaware
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Re: Upcoming operators of Airbus A350-1000XWB

Thu Jun 21, 2018 6:35 am

They have, read my post again.
 
speedbird52
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Re: Upcoming operators of Airbus A350-1000XWB

Thu Jun 21, 2018 6:53 am

zeke wrote:
res77W wrote:
LH still has the 779 on order, however they've operated jets of similar size together before. Agreed AI is a no go. But everything else sounds plausible.

-Rowen


What routes does LH have that need the range/payload of the 779. It’s a lot more expressive aircraft to own and operate compared to the A350 which the already operate.

Could easily see LH operate the A350-1000 on A340-600 routes, even with similar downstairs toilets to increase the number of seats while enjoying 25% lower fuel burn to the 779.

Considering LH have a 748 and A388 fleet that fly with favorable yields I can definitely see them having need for large aircraft. Most of their 744 flights are fairly full, and that is exactly where the 779s will be replacing
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speedbird52
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Re: Upcoming operators of Airbus A350-1000XWB

Thu Jun 21, 2018 6:56 am

If you ask me, it would make sense to see LH use the A359 to replace their aging A343 fleet, and order A35Ks to replace the A346 fleet
"I have control" Three Words That Could Have Saved Lives.
 
stratocruiser
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Re: Upcoming operators of Airbus A350-1000XWB

Thu Jun 21, 2018 11:07 am

It is possible that Lingus could perhaps have a place for a small fleet of A350-1000s in the future to compliment their A330s. Although they originally had A350-900s on order, a change in policy seems to have lead to standardisation on the A330 and the A359 orders appear to have been taken over by their parent group IAG. In truth the A330-200s and -300s are an excellent fit for Aer Lingus’s current long haul network providing reasonable steps up in passenger capacity from their 757 (and future A321LR) fleet compared to the A359 which would carry around twice the number of passengers than the 757/A321. Furthermore the current Aer Lingus network doesn’t really need the very long haul abilities of the A359 and is unlikely to in the future. If however traffic growth continues at its current rate and becomes sustainable year round then perhaps in the future they may have a need for an aircraft larger than the A330-300 for their busier routes such as JFK, BOS and perhaps ORD and SFO. The A350-1000 in the current Aer Lingus long haul configuration of just Y/J seating would probably carry close to 400 passengers which would seem to be a reasonable step up in capacity from the A330-300 for busier routes. I would not however expect to see any decision on decision on a larger aircraft being made by EI/IAG for at least 5-10 years and until then the A330s seem to be ideal for their growing network.
 
Strato2
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Re: Upcoming operators of Airbus A350-1000XWB

Thu Jun 21, 2018 11:22 am

Polot wrote:
mjoelnir wrote:
MoKa777 wrote:

I agree with you 100%!

Interest must be very high due to the A350-1000 exceeding expectations.

Only thing that will likely hold back orders is the fact that the global 77W fleet is still young, fuel prices are still relatively manageable and the A350 backlog and production ramp-up.

After 2020 though, orders will most definitely pick up.


The global 777-300ER fleet is young, but if the oil price should rise, they could see early replacement. The fuel burn difference between a 777-300ER and an A350-1000 is about double the difference between a 777-300ER and a A340-600.


If the oil prices rise significantly to cause early retirements there would probably be greater incentive to replace those 77Ws with smaller 789/A359s than equally sized A350-1000s....


That is terrible news for the 777X that is even bigger.
 
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Polot
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Re: Upcoming operators of Airbus A350-1000XWB

Thu Jun 21, 2018 12:10 pm

Strato2 wrote:
Polot wrote:
mjoelnir wrote:

The global 777-300ER fleet is young, but if the oil price should rise, they could see early replacement. The fuel burn difference between a 777-300ER and an A350-1000 is about double the difference between a 777-300ER and a A340-600.


If the oil prices rise significantly to cause early retirements there would probably be greater incentive to replace those 77Ws with smaller 789/A359s than equally sized A350-1000s....


That is terrible news for the 777X that is even bigger.

Ok? Does everything have to be Boeing vs Airbus with you?

speedbird52 wrote:
If you ask me, it would make sense to see LH use the A359 to replace their aging A343 fleet, and order A35Ks to replace the A346 fleet

As LH joins the rest of world in limiting their F class availability to select routes/planes their A359s are perfect replacements for their A346s.
 
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OA940
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Re: Upcoming operators of Airbus A350-1000XWB

Thu Jun 21, 2018 12:33 pm

Why do people insist on all this? Airlines like ET will probably standardize at 789/359 to avoid taking risks. Aer Lingus is nowhere near a 35K customer, possibly not even an A350 customer at all. QF has the 778 available, which, for its ULH missions will be a better fit, as good as the A350 is. LH and IB seem likely, considering they could use them to replace the 346 (especially considering LH's 779's are too big to replace the 346, and will probably replace the 747). Otherwise I could see current operators ordering more aircraft. Maybe some 77W operators that don't need all the capacity will order it, and perhaps an airline like KLM to replace the 744, but they could easily go 779 as well. It's honestly a guessing game.
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O530CarrisPT
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Re: Upcoming operators of Airbus A350-1000XWB

Thu Jun 21, 2018 2:27 pm

OA940 wrote:
Why do people insist on all this? Airlines like ET will probably standardize at 789/359 to avoid taking risks. Aer Lingus is nowhere near a 35K customer, possibly not even an A350 customer at all. QF has the 778 available, which, for its ULH missions will be a better fit, as good as the A350 is. LH and IB seem likely, considering they could use them to replace the 346 (especially considering LH's 779's are too big to replace the 346, and will probably replace the 747). Otherwise I could see current operators ordering more aircraft. Maybe some 77W operators that don't need all the capacity will order it, and perhaps an airline like KLM to replace the 744, but they could easily go 779 as well. It's honestly a guessing game.


Agreed. Despite Lufthansa is using the A350-900XWB to replace the A340-600, I think they could be moved to replace the A330-300s in order to be possible to order A350-1000XWBs to replace their A340-600s (because the 777-9 is likely to be more a 747-400/747-8 replacement than a A340-600 replacement). So, that's a maybe, but only a maybe.
Is very likely that Qantas may go for the 777X instead of the A350-1000XWB, with some 777-9s being ordered as a replacement for their large jets. I don't see Delta ordering the A350-1000XWB, since they actually don't need more than the A350-900XWB for their flights. About Air France-KLM, I think it'll be split between the A350-1000XWB and the 777-9, with the airlines operating them concurrently.
A potential A350-1000XWB customer may be United. Since the A350-1000XWB has commonality with the A350-900XWB which UA will operate, makes UA a potential candidate to order them to replace the 777-300ERs in the future (unless they prefer the 777-9).
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