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Revelation
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Airbus A320 NEO series and A350's for China can't be delivered

Sat Jan 13, 2018 2:14 pm

Our own Jon Ostrower wrote CNN Money: Airbus built a lot of planes for China last year - but can't deliver them wrote:

Across Airbus's factories in Germany and France, more than a dozen A320neo and A321neos, some that were ready as far back as last spring, have been in storage awaiting final sign-offs from the Civil Aviation Administration of China. About a half-dozen A350s for Chinese carriers are waiting at its main headquarters in Toulouse in southern France.

And:

Precisely what has slowed Airbus' approvals in China isn't entirely clear. The delays have more to do with politics than technology, say several people familiar with the regulatory delays. The delays are wrapped up in an extended wish list from Beijing that ranges from new safety agreements with Europe to additional production in China.

It seems CN feels EU has been dragging their feet on accepting CN certification standards so CN has been dragging its feet on accepting Airbus deliveries.

All the official sources are denying this is happening, though the timing of US deliveries to CN advanced after the US accepted CN's standards.

Very interesting article! :bigthumbsup:
Last edited by SQ22 on Sat Jan 13, 2018 7:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
Planesmart
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Re: Airbus planes for China can't be delivered

Sat Jan 13, 2018 7:04 pm

Revelation wrote:
Our own Jon Ostrower wrote CNN Money: Airbus built a lot of planes for China last year - but can't deliver them wrote:

Across Airbus's factories in Germany and France, more than a dozen A320neo and A321neos, some that were ready as far back as last spring, have been in storage awaiting final sign-offs from the Civil Aviation Administration of China. About a half-dozen A350s for Chinese carriers are waiting at its main headquarters in Toulouse in southern France.

And:

Precisely what has slowed Airbus' approvals in China isn't entirely clear. The delays have more to do with politics than technology, say several people familiar with the regulatory delays. The delays are wrapped up in an extended wish list from Beijing that ranges from new safety agreements with Europe to additional production in China.

It seems CN feels EU has been dragging their feet on accepting CN certification standards so CN has been dragging its feet on accepting Airbus deliveries.

All the official sources are denying this is happening, though the timing of US deliveries to CN advanced after the US accepted CN's standards.

Very interesting article! :bigthumbsup:

Interesting to view the USA's treatment of China to secure business. If China secures a volume order from one of the US3, would they try the same trick as pulled on Canada?
 
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SQ22
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Re: Airbus A320series and A350's for China can't be delivered

Sat Jan 13, 2018 7:10 pm

Please have a look here:

KarelXWB wrote:
Airbus finally received CAAC certification for the P&W powered A321neo (P&W powered A320neo was certified about a year earlier).

Only in the closing days of last year was Airbus awarded Chinese certification for its new A321neo with Pratt & Whitney engines, the company said. That approval came nearly a year after many of the planes on order had already been made. Both A320neo and A321neo jets with CFM International engines have yet to win Chinese approval.


http://money.cnn.com/2018/01/12/news/co ... index.html

Still no CFM certification though, but at least China Southern and Sichuan Airlines should be able to receive a bunch of P&W A321neo aircraft.


Taken from the A320 NEO series production thread: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1382505

And here:

Heavierthanair wrote:
G'day

Some insight on what appears to be holding uo Chinese A 350 deliveries

https://www.channel3000.com/news/money/ ... /685299618

Quote:

China over the years has asked Airbus to intervene with the European Aviation Safety Agency and the European Commission to help expedite the talks over the aviation safety agreement, say two people familiar with the requests. As the negotiations dragged on, so did the pace of certification.
The talks between China and the European Commission were successfully completed in December, according to a European Commission spokesman.
The agreement is expected to be signed in June, which the Commission says it expects will help advance certification for "European aviation products" in China.

Unquote:

Cheers

Peter


Taken again from the production thread, but now A350: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1382499
 
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Revelation
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Re: Airbus A320 NEO series and A350's for China can't be delivered

Sat Jan 13, 2018 7:18 pm

Thanks for the updates, SQ22.

Jon's story goes a bit deeper, quoting industry sources regarding some theories of why it takes China so long to issue these certifications.
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Re: Airbus A320 NEO series and A350's for China can't be delivered

Sat Jan 13, 2018 7:19 pm

So despite this and other challenges, Airbus still managed to deliver more planes in 2017 than they've ever done before. Hopefully they can clear the logjam fairly quickly in 2018.
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chrisp390
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Re: Airbus A320 NEO series and A350's for China can't be delivered

Sat Jan 13, 2018 7:33 pm

Typical Chinese method of bullying and intimidating other countries in order to get what it wants. It is time these countries unite together and tell China NO.
 
SFOtoORD
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Re: Airbus A320 NEO series and A350's for China can't be delivered

Sat Jan 13, 2018 7:53 pm

chrisp390 wrote:
Typical Chinese method of bullying and intimidating other countries in order to get what it wants. It is time these countries unite together and tell China NO.


That’s is never going to happen. China’s economy is too deeply intertwined with all of the West’s economies.
 
aircanadaa330
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Re: Airbus A320 NEO series and A350's for China can't be delivered

Sat Jan 13, 2018 8:01 pm

if China isn't going to "allow" these deliveries, couldn't Airbus sell them to other customers? Build China's planes later....
Cheers;
 
kjeld0d
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Re: Airbus A320 NEO series and A350's for China can't be delivered

Sat Jan 13, 2018 8:06 pm

chrisp390 wrote:
Typical Chinese method of bullying and intimidating other countries in order to get what it wants. It is time these countries unite together and tell China NO.


Except that we gave them all our money in exchange for a few decades of cheap manufactured goods...oops!
 
SelseyBill
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Re: Airbus A320 NEO series and A350's for China can't be delivered

Sat Jan 13, 2018 8:32 pm

chrisp390 wrote:
Typical Chinese method of bullying and intimidating other countries in order to get what it wants. It is time these countries unite together and tell China NO.


......that's probably exactly what Canadian folks are feeling right now about Boeing inc......
 
VV
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Re: Airbus A320 NEO series and A350's for China can't be delivered

Sat Jan 13, 2018 8:49 pm

it’s easy, Europe's EASA must sign the bilateral agreement as FAA did already.

https://www.faa.gov/news/updates/?newsI ... id=101_N_U
 
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YuriMG2
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Re: Airbus A320 NEO series and A350's for China can't be delivered

Sat Jan 13, 2018 9:00 pm

chrisp390 wrote:
Typical Chinese method of bullying and intimidating other countries in order to get what it wants. It is time these countries unite together and tell China NO.


China is doing what US and UE main countries has done in the last 500 years.

lol

Pay back hurts
 
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Re: Airbus A320 NEO series and A350's for China can't be delivered

Sat Jan 13, 2018 9:05 pm

YuriMG2 wrote:
chrisp390 wrote:
Typical Chinese method of bullying and intimidating other countries in order to get what it wants. It is time these countries unite together and tell China NO.


China is doing what US and UE main countries has done in the last 500 years.

lol

Pay back hurts

In all fairness, they haven't resorted to flooding the west with drugs yet.
Down with that sort of thing!
 
VV
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Re: Airbus A320 NEO series and A350's for China can't be delivered

Sat Jan 13, 2018 9:24 pm

BaconButty wrote:
In all fairness, they haven't resorted to flooding the west with drugs yet.


Not so sure. You can find Chinese garlic in our supermarkets now.
 
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Re: Airbus A320 NEO series and A350's for China can't be delivered

Sat Jan 13, 2018 9:33 pm

I know Airbus stands a lot to lose here if the negotiations don't go through, but it will be a sad day when the aviation industry accepts lower safety standards for certification over selling aircraft to China. I thought safety trumped everything in aviation, including cost/profits. The exception is if aviation certification standards were implemented specifically to exclude new OEM entrants, but to my (admitted inexperienced) eye, it doesn't seem to be that way.
 
zippy
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Re: Airbus A320 NEO series and A350's for China can't be delivered

Sat Jan 13, 2018 9:49 pm

BaconButty wrote:
In all fairness, they haven't resorted to flooding the west with drugs yet.


Sure they have. Where do you think all the fentanyl derivatives come from?
 
Route66
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Re: Airbus planes for China can't be delivered

Sat Jan 13, 2018 10:24 pm

Planesmart wrote:
Interesting to view the USA's treatment of China to secure business. If China secures a volume order from one of the US3, would they try the same trick as pulled on Canada?


Please. This has nothing to do with the USA, the US3, Canada or any hypotheticals between them. Why the constant obsession to veer every thread in that direction?
 
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zkojq
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Re: Airbus A320 NEO series and A350's for China can't be delivered

Sun Jan 14, 2018 6:47 am

Good news! Extra P&W GTFs available immediately for A320neo operators in need.
Most recent planes I've been in: A318 F-GUGQ, A319 F-GRHR, A320ceo D-AIZH, A320neo D-AINE, A330-300 VH-QPD, A350-900 B-LRA, A380-800 D-AIMH, B737-600 LN-RPA, B737-700 OY-JTY, B737-800 LN-NGA, B767-300 ZK-NCI, B777-300 ZK-OKN, B787-9 VH-ZNA, CS100 HB-JBG
 
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Re: Airbus A320 NEO series and A350's for China can't be delivered

Sun Jan 14, 2018 7:31 am

zkojq wrote:
Good news! Extra P&W GTFs available immediately for A320neo operators in need.


:confused:

A320neo with P&W powerplant received CAAC certification in December 2016 and Airbus did deliver a bunch of aircaft in 2017, including Air China, Tianjin Airlines, West Air and
Sichuan Airlines.

A321neo with P&W powerplant received CAAC certification in December 2017, thus deliveries will begin in 2018. China Southern and Sichuan Airlines will be the first operators in China.

Rumor has it the A350 is due to follow in February.

CFM powered A320neo and A321neo are not yet certified in China and so far no date is set yet. But in all fairness, only 3 CFM powered A320neo aircaft for Chinese operators have been assembled (Capital Airlines and China Eastern) thus there is little haste. Many Chinese airlines selected the P&W powerplant.
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Re: Airbus A320 NEO series and A350's for China can't be delivered

Sun Jan 14, 2018 7:37 am

BaconButty wrote:
YuriMG2 wrote:
chrisp390 wrote:
Typical Chinese method of bullying and intimidating other countries in order to get what it wants. It is time these countries unite together and tell China NO.


China is doing what US and UE main countries has done in the last 500 years.

Pay back hurts

In all fairness, they haven't resorted to flooding the west with drugs yet.


No, just poisoned baby milk.

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BREECH
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Re: Airbus A320 NEO series and A350's for China can't be delivered

Sun Jan 14, 2018 4:04 pm

One, anything can be resolved through a bribe in China. And two, if Chinese apply similar standards to airworthyness as they do to the safety of their food, I don't think signing that agreement with them will do any good. They'll simply sign off planes as airworthy and then they'll crash. And the Chinese will say that the "Western experts are biased against the Chinese products". It's already happening with Chinese made cars which are only safe on paper. BAD idea.
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Re: Airbus A320 NEO series and A350's for China can't be delivered

Sun Jan 14, 2018 4:19 pm

NeBaNi wrote:
I know Airbus stands a lot to lose here if the negotiations don't go through, but it will be a sad day when the aviation industry accepts lower safety standards for certification over selling aircraft to China. I thought safety trumped everything in aviation, including cost/profits. The exception is if aviation certification standards were implemented specifically to exclude new OEM entrants, but to my (admitted inexperienced) eye, it doesn't seem to be that way.

China is pushing to relax rules. The ARJ-21 not being certified 'lost face', but it was not an aircraft ready to be certified. I really hope the process isn't watered down. I want less redundant paperwork, but to keep the safety.

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7673mech
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Re: Airbus A320 NEO series and A350's for China can't be delivered

Sun Jan 14, 2018 4:43 pm

aircanadaa330 wrote:
if China isn't going to "allow" these deliveries, couldn't Airbus sell them to other customers? Build China's planes later....


Negative. They probably already have Customer Furnished parts in them like interior items. It would be cost prohibitive to replace these.

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