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DABEAR
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Questions on Air Jamaica/Caribbean Airlines destinations and equipment

Mon Jan 15, 2018 1:00 am

I was just curious if Air Jamaica has shown any interest in the 787 or the A350? I cannot recall if they've shown any interest in either of these aircraft and I would think they would be prime for fleet modernization. Thanks!
Last edited by SQ22 on Tue Jan 16, 2018 7:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
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ikolkyo
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Re: Air Jamaica Shown Any Interest in 787 or A350?

Mon Jan 15, 2018 1:07 am

That airline doesn’t exist anymore, unless you’re talking about it’s successor Caribbean Airlines?
 
flydude380
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Re: Air Jamaica Shown Any Interest in 787 or A350?

Mon Jan 15, 2018 1:07 am

Air Jamaica?! Do you mean Carribean Airlines? Air Jamaica is long gone... :(
 
alan3
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Re: Air Jamaica Shown Any Interest in 787 or A350?

Mon Jan 15, 2018 1:19 am

Actually on this point, what is the future of domestic Jamaican airlines? Caribbean Airlines only fly to 8 destinations from Kingston and 2 from Montego Bay. None of them long haul. Seems to be a much smaller airline than Air Jamaica was. And Fly Jamaica, despite its title, only flies to 4 destinations.

Any future of either airline to fly long haul again, such as to London? There should be not only a large expat Jamaican population in the UK but lots of holiday makers.
 
airjamaica
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Re: Air Jamaica Shown Any Interest in 787 or A350?

Mon Jan 15, 2018 5:29 am

alan3 wrote:
Any future of either airline to fly long haul again, such as to London? There should be not only a large expat Jamaican population in the UK but lots of holiday makers.


You will not be seeing BW operating to the UK from Jamaica any time soon... probably never. They are already facing stiff competition from B6, AA, AC, WS, NK, DL, & WN on their North American routes. Doubt they would want to take on BA out of KIN or VS out of MBJ to LGW.
greenheart
 
guyanam
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Re: Air Jamaica Shown Any Interest in 787 or A350?

Mon Jan 15, 2018 5:57 am

airjamaica wrote:
alan3 wrote:
Any future of either airline to fly long haul again, such as to London? There should be not only a large expat Jamaican population in the UK but lots of holiday makers.


You will not be seeing BW operating to the UK from Jamaica any time soon... probably never. They are already facing stiff competition from B6, AA, AC, WS, NK, DL, & WN on their North American routes. Doubt they would want to take on BA out of KIN or VS out of MBJ to LGW.


BW already tried LGW POS and cut it. Their 763 fleet was under utilized and costly. The initial plan was to include BGI as a stop, given the healthy leisure travel to that island from the UK. But most UK leisure travel is package based and tied to UK carriers, scheduled and charter. So there was nothing for BW to get. KIN was also considered but that market isn't as large as some think. BA only does 3-4x weekly, LESS than it does into islands like ANU and UVF. So not enough for BW in a dog fight with BA.

So no BW to LGW. Not with a broke T&T government. In fact BW should be looking to replace its 738 fleet which now consists of planes 16-18 years old. No mention of that.
 
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usmcav8tor
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Re: Air Jamaica Shown Any Interest in 787 or A350?

Mon Jan 15, 2018 6:10 am

Air Jamaica folded in 2015. At the current moment, I doubt they are looking for new aircraft given the airline is run by the government & the airline has had poor revenue for a few years now. In my opinion, I think the airline is more concerned with breaking even and once they do they may consider long-haul aircraft/routes.
 
gunnerman
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Re: Air Jamaica Shown Any Interest in 787 or A350?

Mon Jan 15, 2018 2:51 pm

The market between Jamaica and UK is well-served by scheduled (BA, VS) and charter (BY, MT) airlines. There is no market for a local airline. After JM's second and last attempt to crack this market (with the A310-300 from 1996-1999 and the A340-300 from 1999-2007 IIRC), it had to pull out after a reported US$20m-$US25m yearly losses, and the LHR slots were sold in 2007.
 
alan3
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Re: Air Jamaica Shown Any Interest in 787 or A350?

Mon Jan 15, 2018 9:00 pm

gunnerman wrote:
The market between Jamaica and UK is well-served by scheduled (BA, VS) and charter (BY, MT) airlines. There is no market for a local airline. After JM's second and last attempt to crack this market (with the A310-300 from 1996-1999 and the A340-300 from 1999-2007 IIRC), it had to pull out after a reported US$20m-$US25m yearly losses, and the LHR slots were sold in 2007.


Didn't BWIA fly long haul too, to the UK and Frankfurt I believe, from Trinidad? They had a few long haul aircraft too.

Seems like the days of local Caribbean airlines flying long haul are dead.

Unless you count Cubana, who fly to Europe, but how long can they keep going on those old Russian aircraft?
 
gunnerman
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Re: Air Jamaica Shown Any Interest in 787 or A350?

Mon Jan 15, 2018 9:08 pm

BW's main European route was POS-LHR via BGI (on Mondays, Thursdays and Saturdays), UVF (on Tuesdays and Sundays) and ANU (on Wednesdays and Fridays). But a daily flight requires two aircraft, with one being much underutilised. So, many other European destinations were tried, including MAN, PIK and BFS in the UK using the A340-300. It didn't work, even though the LHR slots were good, with arrival times in the Caribbean being mid-afternoon in the winter.
 
NichCage
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Re: Air Jamaica Shown Any Interest in 787 or A350?

Mon Jan 15, 2018 9:29 pm

Why did airlines in the Caribbean like Air Jamaica and BWIA fail?

Otherwise, every other airline can get to places like Jamaica and Barbados. MBJ has service to MAN, BHX, LGW, and even farther into Europe with AMS, BRU, DUS, CGN, FRA and MUC. Jamaica also has countless connections to North American on AA, DL, UA, AC, WS, etc.
 
gunnerman
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Re: Air Jamaica Shown Any Interest in 787 or A350?

Mon Jan 15, 2018 9:44 pm

The failure of JM and BW would need a separate thread. But one reason is that little Caribbean airlines cannot efficiently deploy their expensive aircraft as can their huge north American and European competitors who are able to funnel traffic through their big hubs into the Caribbean and many other places.
 
Cunard
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Re: Air Jamaica Shown Any Interest in 787 or A350?

Tue Jan 16, 2018 12:23 am

alan3 wrote:
gunnerman wrote:
The market between Jamaica and UK is well-served by scheduled (BA, VS) and charter (BY, MT) airlines. There is no market for a local airline. After JM's second and last attempt to crack this market (with the A310-300 from 1996-1999 and the A340-300 from 1999-2007 IIRC), it had to pull out after a reported US$20m-$US25m yearly losses, and the LHR slots were sold in 2007.


Didn't BWIA fly long haul too, to the UK and Frankfurt I believe, from Trinidad? They had a few long haul aircraft too.

Seems like the days of local Caribbean airlines flying long haul are dead.

Unless you count Cubana, who fly to Europe, but how long can they keep going on those old Russian aircraft?


You do realise that BWIA was later rebranded into Caribbean Airlines!

The former BWIA flew from Port of Spain and also from Barbados and St Lucia to several European destinations along with LHR there was ARN, FRA, ZUR although not all the latter destinations were served simultaneously with LHR being their final transatlantic destination before the airline was rebranded into Caribbean Airlines.

BWIA originally used Boeing 707 from 1971 when the airline inaugurated a Port of Spain to LGW route which later transferred to LHR in 1973, these were replaced in 1980 by brand new L1011-500 and towards the end of BWIA transatlantic operations A340-300 were acquired.
 
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turk223
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Re: Air Jamaica Shown Any Interest in 787 or A350?

Tue Jan 16, 2018 12:31 am

alan3 wrote:
Didn't BWIA fly long haul too, to the UK and Frankfurt I believe, from Trinidad? They had a few long haul aircraft too.


When I worked with BW in the late 80s and early 90s, we had 4 L-1011-500 long-haul aircraft. We flew to LHR for years, but added FRA, MUC, CGN, ZRH, ARN in the early 90s. MAN came in the late 90s.
 
Cunard
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Re: Air Jamaica Shown Any Interest in 787 or A350?

Tue Jan 16, 2018 12:48 am

Thanks for that further information I knew there were other transatlantic destinations served by BWIA along with the others that I had mentioned in my post but I didn't want to take a rough guess on them but I've surprised myself by omitting MAN.

I decided to just put the aircraft types used by BWIA rather than the number of types even though I was aware that they had four L1011-500 in their fleet which were ordered brand new from Lockheed in 1979.

Having only flown with BWIA on one occasion from St Lucia to LHR in 1993 I have to admit that it was a very unremarkable flight.
 
guyanam
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Re: Air Jamaica Shown Any Interest in 787 or A350?

Tue Jan 16, 2018 7:57 am

NichCage wrote:
Why did airlines in the Caribbean like Air Jamaica and BWIA fail?

Otherwise, every other airline can get to places like Jamaica and Barbados. MBJ has service to MAN, BHX, LGW, and even farther into Europe with AMS, BRU, DUS, CGN, FRA and MUC. Jamaica also has countless connections to North American on AA, DL, UA, AC, WS, etc.


Leisure routes from continental Europe to the Caribbean are very low yield and are controlled by huge tour operators. It makes no sense for Caribbean carriers with no tour operators to attempt these routes.

The most lucrative VFR route to the Caribbean (aside from those to the French Antilles which are actually domestic) is the AMS PBM route. Not only is the Suriname population in the Netherlands large but it has many relatively recent arrivals who still retain ties to their homeland. In addition Suriname itself retains strong ties to the Netherlands. And even with that PY struggles in that route as it can only support one plane, so is subject to service issues when a plane goes tech and expensive short term leases when the plane goes in for scheduled checks. PY loses money on that route.

Cubana isn't a commercial operation so who knows what they do.

The Caribbean population in the UK is an ageing one. The typical Caribbean born person resident in the UK is 60 and left the Caribbean over 40 years ago. This suggests that many left as kids. The original migrants who left between 1948 and 1962 either no longer with us, or too elderly to travel. So there aren't the ethnic loyalty ties that BW enjoys especially out of YYZ and JFK.

In fact BW is the 12th largest foreign carrier out of JFK and the ones ahead of it are the "heavies" like Lufthansa, BA, Air France, Emirates, Turkish, etc. Its probably the largest small carrier into JFK. While its financial performance is poor it does well enough from a market share into its core POS/GEO markets. KIN/MBJ was a badly conceived political deal and there was widespread opposition to it replacing JM both in Jamaica and Trinidad.
 
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SQ22
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Re: Questions on Air Jamaica/Carribean Airlines destinations and equipment

Tue Jan 16, 2018 7:04 pm

The thread went way off topic from initial discussion, but it became even more interesting, so instead of locking it, I have changed the title, so wit this title it is no longer off topic. Enjoy your discussion.
 
alan3
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Re: Air Jamaica Shown Any Interest in 787 or A350?

Tue Jan 16, 2018 9:03 pm

guyanam wrote:
NichCage wrote:
Why did airlines in the Caribbean like Air Jamaica and BWIA fail?


In fact BW is the 12th largest foreign carrier out of JFK and the ones ahead of it are the "heavies" like Lufthansa, BA, Air France, Emirates, Turkish, etc. Its probably the largest small carrier into JFK. While its financial performance is poor it does well enough from a market share into its core POS/GEO markets. KIN/MBJ was a badly conceived political deal and there was widespread opposition to it replacing JM both in Jamaica and Trinidad.


I guess to somewhat redirect this back to the original post, in that case, is a fleet of just 12 x 738's (not including the ATRs) sufficient for BW or might they possibly add aircraft or grow their fleet? Given that they have hubs in POS and KIN, as well as routes from MBJ and fly to 5 destinations from JFK.

Although, sounds like they likely don't have the $$ to do so.
 
guyanam
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Re: Air Jamaica Shown Any Interest in 787 or A350?

Wed Jan 17, 2018 6:23 am

alan3 wrote:
I guess to somewhat redirect this back to the original post, in that case, is a fleet of just 12 x 738's (not including the ATRs) sufficient for BW or might they possibly add aircraft or grow their fleet? Given that they have hubs in POS and KIN, as well as routes from MBJ and fly to 5 destinations from JFK.

Although, sounds like they likely don't have the $$ to do so.



BW had a fleet of 16 738s and 2 767s. They got rid of the 767s and 4 738s. They dropped their LGW route. They tightened up their North American and Caribbean routes, reducing service on the KIN/MBJ to North America routes where they were losing market share. They also replaced nonstop service to GND from JFK/YYZ with ATR service from POS fed by BW's North American routes. They are under pressure to cut/reduce service on those routes which are heavy loss makers, especially where they have lost market share to major US/Canadian carriers. T

The only thing that the gov't of T&T wants to hear from BW is cutting losses as they can no longer subsidize the carrier. BW will have to raise its own cash to refleet/refurbish their jets. They started service to HAV on Sat. There is currently heavy travel by Cubans to GEO, and with lower fares than CM they hope to get market share.
 
Group51
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Re: Air Jamaica Shown Any Interest in 787 or A350?

Sun Feb 11, 2018 1:15 pm

guyanam wrote:
NichCage wrote:
Why did airlines in the Caribbean like Air Jamaica and BWIA fail?

The Caribbean population in the UK is an ageing one. The typical Caribbean born person resident in the UK is 60 and left the Caribbean over 40 years ago. This suggests that many left as kids. The original migrants who left between 1948 and 1962 either no longer with us, or too elderly to travel. So there aren't the ethnic loyalty ties that BW enjoys especially out of YYZ and JFK.


Yup.

And right now in London there are lots of adverts on the Tube for flights to Barbados, but it’s Virgin Holidays not Virgin Atlantic. Two images, a man playing dominoes outside a rum shop with tourists, and horse riding. Two things I’ve never seen...but I’ve never gone there as a regular tourist.

I think it means for the independent islands to compete to serve the UK, they need to be more than just an air service. Are they? I don’t know.
 
gunnerman
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Re: Questions on Air Jamaica/Caribbean Airlines destinations and equipment

Sun Feb 11, 2018 3:04 pm

Every Caribbean destination does something to attract tourists as VFR traffic can be limited. Barbados is, of course, the most developed with resorts, hotels, restaurants and bars on its west and south coasts, but others offer other things such as hill climbing and wreck diving. The tour operators such as Virgin Holidays, Thomas Cook and Thomson (now TUI) play a big role in creating and selling holiday packages, often using the airlines of their travel group. There is no way that small local carriers like JM and BW could compete with this.
 
Balloonchaser
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Re: Questions on Air Jamaica/Caribbean Airlines destinations and equipment

Mon Feb 12, 2018 3:55 am

I heard that here was a possibility of Caribbean Airlines operating a SXM (TNCM) to LGW on a loaned B767?
 
gunnerman
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Re: Questions on Air Jamaica/Caribbean Airlines destinations and equipment

Mon Feb 12, 2018 3:15 pm

This seems unlikely. What's the source of this?
 
jmdc861
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Re: Questions on Air Jamaica/Caribbean Airlines destinations and equipment

Mon Feb 12, 2018 6:01 pm

That's an old story from 2-3 years back when they had 2 767s in their fleet. Now they are gone from their fleet just about a year. SXM as well will take years to recover from the hurricane so bottom line, ain't going to happen!
 
guyanam
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Re: Questions on Air Jamaica/Caribbean Airlines destinations and equipment

Mon Feb 12, 2018 8:34 pm

Balloonchaser wrote:
I heard that here was a possibility of Caribbean Airlines operating a SXM (TNCM) to LGW on a loaned B767?

No longer a possibility. No more 767s. SXM tried to get BA to fly there and they have been noncommittal so they tried to get BW.
 
gunnerman
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Re: Questions on Air Jamaica/Caribbean Airlines destinations and equipment

Mon Feb 12, 2018 10:01 pm

SXM already has 12 weekly flights from Europe:
AMS (KL 3x weekly)
CDG (AF daily)
ORY (TX 2x weekly)

No other scheduled carrier will launch a European service.
 
bridge29
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Re: Questions on Air Jamaica/Caribbean Airlines destinations and equipment

Mon Feb 12, 2018 10:35 pm

BW fleet is quite tired and dated on the interior, but probably suits them just fine. It'd be nice to see them grow and partner more with AA, It seems easier to purchase through UA than AA. They have a niche in serving Guyana and Suriname which are hard to get to otherwise.
 
guyanam
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Re: Questions on Air Jamaica/Caribbean Airlines destinations and equipment

Tue Feb 13, 2018 4:00 pm

bridge29 wrote:
BW fleet is quite tired and dated on the interior, but probably suits them just fine. It'd be nice to see them grow and partner more with AA, It seems easier to purchase through UA than AA. They have a niche in serving Guyana and Suriname which are hard to get to otherwise.



Why should they partner with AA? What has either airline to gain?

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