abrelosojos
Posts: 4211
Joined: Sun May 29, 2005 6:48 am

Re: COPA adds more flights to Argentina

Sun Feb 11, 2018 3:13 am

2travel2know2 wrote:
abrelosojos wrote:
2travel2know2 wrote:
Seems that now this topic changed to air-routes between Mexico and Argentina. :evil: :white:


= Well, any discussion of COPA and growth in Argentina, must include Mexico no? I mean, COPA is not adding service to Panama to support the huge Panamanian local market :lol:.

Saludos,
Alex

Of course, all that is about CM growth is because its traffic to/from México, whatever CM traffic gets between South America and USA/Canada is barely icing on the cake.


= The two are not mutually exclusive. All the thread is saying is that COPA is nothing without siphoning of traffic from all over the Americas, including (primarily) USA, Mexico, Argentina, and Brasil.

Saludos,
Alex
Live, and let live.
 
EddieDude
Posts: 6819
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Re: COPA adds more flights to Argentina

Tue Feb 13, 2018 5:52 pm

abrelosojos wrote:
I think the little 787 order is also very weak. AM must try new things...

Yes, 9 788s and 10 789s is too small of a long-haul fleet for an airline with the scale of AM. If PEK comes to fruition, and BCN and GIG return, the fleet will be again spread too thinly. Maybe a follow-on Dreamliner order is in the works?

abrelosojos wrote:
the best Latin American airline product.

Okay, that is a bit of a hyperbole. AM is not that great. The catering in J in U.S.-MEX flights is appalling. On board service (whether long-haul or short-haul, whether J or Y) is hit-or-miss. Sometimes flight attendants are very friendly and aiming to genuinely please, sometimes they are just arrogant and lacking in motivation and knowledge of important aspects of their job. Based on trip reports and hearsay, I would say AV Colombia has probably the best product in the region.

abrelosojos wrote:
On a separate note, when does new MEX airport open?

If a certain populist candidate gets elected as president, perhaps it might not open at all. Having said that, completion of the airport is already delayed.

dcajet wrote:
There is that needless immigration and customs processing while on transit. And to add insult to injury, the Mexican authorities get a bit fussy with flights arriving from South America, be them from SCL, EZE GRU, LIM or BOG and, at least when I transited there, were checking with dogs pretty much everything that walked off from these flights. Thanks, but no thanks. I'll pass. And somehow cheeky considering the country's own involvement in certain trades..

I agree that immigration and customs for international-to-international pax is needless. However, I wonder to what extent it is due to shortsightedness on the side of Mexican authorities, and to what extent it results from pressure from the U.S. Remember there is a very deep high-level national security coordination between the U.S. and Mexico's militaries, interior authorities, etc., so I would not be surprised that certain domestic policies are actually the result of conditions imposed by the U.S.

On the subject of drugs, a substantial part of the Mexican drug situation has to do with shipments of drugs originating in South America transiting through Mexican airports, highways, ports, etc. Therefore, it should come as no surprise that pax arriving at MEX from the Caribbean, Central America and South America have to go through those extra hoops. When CCS-MEX flights existed, there were numerous arrests all the time involving drug trafficking, and those drugs did not originate in Mexico. I agree it seems that GRU, EZE and SCL should get different treatment vis-à-vis BOG, LIM, etc., but it is what it is.
Upcoming AM MEX-LAX 73H, VA LAX-MEL 77W.
 
EarlyLateORD
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Re: COPA adds more flights to Argentina

Tue Feb 13, 2018 6:49 pm

For the record, there is maybe one good Mexican restaurant in BsAs :) There just aren't strong cultural, economic or gastronomic ties.

Ive always joked with my wife that if I ever wanted to move back to Argentina, the quick path to success would be to open a Mexican restaurant there that remotely resembled Mexican cuisine.

Adam
 
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PPVLC
Posts: 177
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Re: COPA adds more flights to Argentina

Tue Feb 13, 2018 9:53 pm

zakuivcustom wrote:
Tailwinds13 wrote:
Honestly, I think the airline that should become more active in Argentina is Aeromexico. Outside the US, it is the #1 destination for traffic from Argentina and I think AM could do a whole lot more to capture this. While CUN may be low yielding, it provides feed and network development. Alternatively, Aerolineas and AM (both shockingly Skyteam members) should have a deeper alliance and allow this traffic to be served over EZE. Latin airlines in general have allowed CM to grow. CM's product is utter crap, especially in J, and there is no reason why an aggressive push by AR/AM or even G3 via BSB/FOR can't make life difficult for CM.


AM is doing enough per demand from Argentina. Surprisingly for two such culturally significant and relatively prosperous LatAm countries, traffic is surprisingly small. MEX or CUN didn’t even break the top 15 list of popular destinations out of EZE or Argentina as a whole for 2016. AM’s focus has been growth in Asia and solidifying SkyTeam hubs in Europe, as well as USA growth with Delta. AM is comfortable with being the sole provider of EZE-MEX and is providing enough flights on a good product. Those choosing CM are the budget conscious or tourists seeking better landing times and dates to CUN. You’re right in that CM is stealing a good chunk of passengers, however, AM does not have sufficient connections on the EZE side to warrant increased flights right now. There’s relatively little VFR/business connections on the Argentine side outside of BsAs to Mexico, so the route depends nearly entirely of P2P demand, which isn’t big.


Add on a little bit - the economic tie between Argentina and Mexico are not all that big either.

A random indicator from Wikipedia (I know...it's not always 100% accurate, but it's good for a general picture):
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign_t ... _Argentina

Argentina foreign trade with Mexico is tiny. Chile and Brazil (and Uruguay) are the obvious trade partners. Then you got US and China with both having huge economy. But after that, it's a bunch of western European nations. There are more trade between Argentina and Iran (or India) than Argentina and Mexico, just for the sake of argument.

And I've always think of Argentine culture having a lot more tie to Europe (Chiefly Spain and Italy) than the more mixed culture (European with Indigenous culture/"Amerindian", and in Brazil's case, some African culture) you found in rest of Latin America anyway.


Brazil has ties with practically all European countries as it has a significant amount of immigrants coming from many different nations, it's the largest Japanese population outside Japan for instance, southern Brazil has a strong German influence, there are millions of people of Italian descent, Lebanese, Korean, etc etc cultural ties don't necessarily mean a high number of passengers between the points. Brazil's trade with Mexico is not that expressive either, much smaller than Brazil-Argentina but lots of Brazilians fly to Mexico for holidays.
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dcajet
Topic Author
Posts: 2455
Joined: Sun Aug 01, 2004 9:31 am

Re: COPA adds more flights to Argentina

Tue Feb 13, 2018 11:03 pm

EddieDude wrote:
I agree that immigration and customs for international-to-international pax is needless. However, I wonder to what extent it is due to shortsightedness on the side of Mexican authorities, and to what extent it results from pressure from the U.S. Remember there is a very deep high-level national security coordination between the U.S. and Mexico's militaries, interior authorities, etc., so I would not be surprised that certain domestic policies are actually the result of conditions imposed by the U.S. .


That may well be the case. On second thought, it sounds highly likely.
"Unattended children will be given espresso and a free kitten"
 
dcajet
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Re: COPA adds more flights to Argentina

Thu Mar 22, 2018 4:55 pm

The team that manages Mercosur within COPA is in Argentina this week for meetings with the governors of Salta and Tucuman and their respective tourism and transportation authorities.This gives a good hint about where COPA intends to land next in Argentina in the near future, in addition to more frequencies @ EZE, that are sorely needed.

Both TUC and SLA are connected with daily flights to the LIM hub via LATAM. Additionally, TUC is also connected, via LATAM, to GRU and SCL and will be a hub for Avianca Argentina beginning mid-2018.

In any case, these potential new flights will require a new revision to the Argentina - Panama bilateral (the third in two years) as it is currently maxed out for both sides (COPA is using the frequencies for both sides, as no Argentinian airline flies to PTY).
"Unattended children will be given espresso and a free kitten"
 
2travel2know2
Posts: 2581
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Re: COPA adds more flights to Argentina

Thu Mar 22, 2018 5:07 pm

dcajet wrote:
The team that manages Mercosur within COPA is in Argentina this week for meetings with the governors of Salta and Tucuman and their respective tourism and transportation authorities.This gives us a good hint about where COPA intends to land next in Argentina in the near future, in addition to more frequencies @ EZE, that are sorely needed.

Both TUC and SLA are connected with daily flights to the LIM hub via LATAM. Additionally, TUC is also connected, via LATAM, to GRU and SCL and will be a hub for Avianca Argentina beginning mid-2018.

In any case, these potential new flights will require a new revision to the Argentina - Panama bilateral (the third in two years) as it is currently maxed out for both sides (COPA is using the frequencies for both sides, as no Argentinian airline flies to PTY).

Well, if CM needs to open both SLA and TUC to get an extra daily to EZE (revised bilateral one more time), most likely CM will do it.
What CM will bring SLA and TUC in number of destinations, LATAM can't match via its LIM hub.
I'm not on CM's payroll.
 
dcajet
Topic Author
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Re: COPA adds more flights to Argentina

Thu Mar 22, 2018 11:35 pm

2travel2know2 wrote:
dcajet wrote:
The team that manages Mercosur within COPA is in Argentina this week for meetings with the governors of Salta and Tucuman and their respective tourism and transportation authorities.This gives us a good hint about where COPA intends to land next in Argentina in the near future, in addition to more frequencies @ EZE, that are sorely needed.

Both TUC and SLA are connected with daily flights to the LIM hub via LATAM. Additionally, TUC is also connected, via LATAM, to GRU and SCL and will be a hub for Avianca Argentina beginning mid-2018.

In any case, these potential new flights will require a new revision to the Argentina - Panama bilateral (the third in two years) as it is currently maxed out for both sides (COPA is using the frequencies for both sides, as no Argentinian airline flies to PTY).

Well, if CM needs to open both SLA and TUC to get an extra daily to EZE (revised bilateral one more time), most likely CM will do it.
What CM will bring SLA and TUC in number of destinations, LATAM can't match via its LIM hub.


Well, I don't think there is a quid pro quo between getting more frequencies @ EZE and opening new routes. What these secondary cities lack in volume (compared to EZE) they more than make up in yields, as there CM ends up being one of a couple of players, as opposed to Buenos Aires, where choice is very much in abundance. So it is a win-win for both sides. Now, what both countries would really need to do is to move over to an open skies agreement. But. I reckon that for the aeronautical unions in Argentina, that is heresy.

In any case, it will be interesting to see which of the two cities CM picks (they are only 150 miles apart). While TUC is a larger city, SLA has more tourism and is generally more business forward than TUC, with a very involved government in the promotion of the province as place open for business. Andes, for example, is headquartered in Salta. And while I agree that CM brings s superior network for connections ex PTY, lets not forget LA also plays as a local, with a solid frequent flyer base in both provinces.
"Unattended children will be given espresso and a free kitten"

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