airmale
Posts: 7125
Joined: Fri Sep 17, 2004 4:48 pm

Why No Livery On EL AL Cargo Planes?

Fri Mar 01, 2002 1:56 am

Arent they intersted in promoting themselves in countries where they dont have passenger services, such as in Sri Lanka?
.....up there with the best!
 
User avatar
EA CO AS
Posts: 13438
Joined: Wed Nov 14, 2001 8:54 am

RE: Why No Livery On EL AL Cargo Planes?

Fri Mar 01, 2002 2:14 am

My best guess is that what was once a nondescript plain ol' freighter suddenly takes on the definition of "high profile target" once you slap the El Al name on the side.

The company spends millions every year on security for their passenger services, since they are easily identifiable and provide a tempting target for a terrorist.

Cargo aircraft are not typically prone to terrorist threats since there isn't a potential for large numbers of hostages like with passenger aircraft, but why tempt fate by advertising "Hey! We're El Al!" on the side when you don't have to?
"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan

Comments made here are my own and are not intended to represent the official position of Alaska Air Group
 
airsicknessbag
Posts: 4626
Joined: Thu Aug 17, 2000 2:45 am

RE: Why No Livery On EL AL Cargo Planes?

Fri Mar 01, 2002 2:16 am

Ah, you mean the "No I´m not El Al" livery  Smile/happy/getting dizzy

Daniel Smile
 
LY744
Posts: 5185
Joined: Sat Feb 03, 2001 11:55 pm

RE: Why No Livery On EL AL Cargo Planes?

Fri Mar 01, 2002 5:53 am

OK folks, tell me this, do you think a terrorist is going to sit under the approach/departure path of a particular runway with a shoulder-launched SAM and just wait until something with "El Al" written on it flies over? As modern-day aviation enthusiasts you should realize how easy it is to find out when exactly a particular a/c is going to be at a certain airport. Also, how many 742 freighters with an all white livery and "Cargo" written on it in huge letters are there? That's right, if anything, this livery makes the a/c more of a target to a real terrorist. Besides, why someone would waste all that effort on attacking a cargo a/c is beyond me.

BTW, LY's convertible 742's (4X-AXF, 4X-AXH) do (and always have) carry the airline's (old) livery.

As to the real reason why LY's freighters carry a white livery, it has been discussed many times before on this board. It may have something to do with the fact that they were routinely leased to CAL (before they acquired their own freighters) for years. CAL might have wanted to operate them on Saturdays (LY is prohibited to fly on Sats), so that may have been the reason. I believe LY did the same thing with a 752 that was used by Arkia on weekends a few years ago.
Not to mention the fact that on occasion the 742Fs have carried advertisements.


LY744.
Pacifism only works if EVERYBODY practices it
 
airmale
Posts: 7125
Joined: Fri Sep 17, 2004 4:48 pm

RE: Why No Livery On EL AL Cargo Planes?

Fri Mar 01, 2002 6:29 am

So do they plan to paint them? maybe im being too much of an optimist but if what if things improve and they start cargo services to places like Dubai and Jeddah, wont they want to show their identity, because I doubt if theyll ever have passenger services to the Middle East even if normal ties are established.
.....up there with the best!
 
conair
Posts: 187
Joined: Sun Nov 26, 2000 9:41 am

RE: Why No Livery On EL AL Cargo Planes?

Fri Mar 01, 2002 6:52 am

Not sure about this,but could it be anything to do with a way round the Sabbath flying ban which EL AL has to observe ? I have seen a few EL AL freight flights into Heathrow on Saturday afternoons and I seem to remember hearing that they use Foriegn crews on some of these flights to get round the weekend restrictions. But it's just a theory.
 
Guest

RE: Why No Livery On EL AL Cargo Planes?

Fri Mar 01, 2002 6:09 pm

The all-white "livery" has nothing to do neither with security nor with the Saturday ban. For years El-Al has been leasing 707s, 737s and 757s to Arkia and 747s to C.A.L; these planes remained in the basic livery, with just the Israeli flag and the titles removed, exactly like the 2 cargo planes LY744 has mentioned above.

Michael/El Al 001 has announced some weeks ago on these forums that El-Al was planning to paint the white freighters in the new livery after their next D-check. This decision had been canceled when the airline decided to withdraw all its 742s from service...but since then this latter decision has been reversed, so let's see....

Click for large version
Click here for full size photo!

Photo © Torsten Maiwald



Click for large version
Click here for full size photo!

Photo © Arjan Rooza



Click for large version
Click here for full size photo!

Photo © Eduard Brantjes



Click for large version
Click here for full size photo!

Photo © Alan Tsui


 
El Al 001
Posts: 978
Joined: Sun Oct 31, 1999 11:50 pm

RE: Why No Livery On EL AL Cargo Planes?

Fri Mar 01, 2002 7:07 pm

Exactly.

The two were scheduled to get the new c/s last May while being D checked at China, but then LY decided on replacing them with 2 744F, so the paint job was cancelled.
Anyway, the two 742F continue to operate at LY until further notice.

LY got the planes in 1993 from Singapore Airlines and never changed their white c/s, with no special reason.

Michael
 
Guest

RE: Why No Livery On EL AL Cargo Planes?

Sat Mar 02, 2002 2:39 am

As for Airmale's questions...

I think EL AL has no interest in "showing their identity" or "promoting" themselves by painting their name on older freighters.

tnnh
 
Trvlr
Posts: 4251
Joined: Thu Feb 17, 2000 9:58 am

RE: Why No Livery On EL AL Cargo Planes?

Sat Mar 02, 2002 2:52 am

El Al 001: Are these 744F on order, or have they been delivered? Will they be in the new colour scheme? Thanks.

Aaron G.
 
User avatar
yyz717
Posts: 15689
Joined: Mon Sep 10, 2001 12:26 pm

RE: Why No Livery On EL AL Cargo Planes?

Sat Mar 02, 2002 3:02 am

CAL has been around for what....20 years or so?

I think the reason in part is that Israel has a lot of trade (military & commercial ties) with countries that would rather not announce to the world their relationship with Israel. Unmarked 742F's help with clandestine shipments etc.

I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
LY744
Posts: 5185
Joined: Sat Feb 03, 2001 11:55 pm

RE: Why No Livery On EL AL Cargo Planes?

Sat Mar 02, 2002 5:46 am

CAL has been around since the late 70's, I believe, but they purchased their first freighter in 1999, before that they used LY a/c and crews.

As for the 744F's, they were supposed to be either wet or dry leased from Atlas Air.

Another (extremely remote) possibility is that perhaps IL's gov reserves the right to use the a/c for military purposes in case of an emergency. In the late 80's(?) when the IL gov used LY and IAF(C-130E/H's, 707, 720) a/c to bring thousands of Ethiopian Jews to Israel, "EL AL" titles were erased from the a/c involved, due to uncompliance with international airline regulations or something (I guess they didn't like the idea of filling a 742F with 1000 people sitting on the floor).

In any case, LY probably wanted to save some money by not repainting the a/c or something.


Click for large version
Click here for full size photo!

Photo © Torsten Maiwald



Click for large version
Click here for full size photo!

Photo © Torsten Maiwald



As you can see, other LY freighters did carry full liveries in the past. Could the removal of the livery have anything to do with 4X-AXG's crash in AMS? You know, not to annoy the locals... After all, 4X-AXZ lost it's full livery in the mid 90's.


LY744.
Pacifism only works if EVERYBODY practices it
 
airmale
Posts: 7125
Joined: Fri Sep 17, 2004 4:48 pm

RE: Why No Livery On EL AL Cargo Planes?

Sat Mar 02, 2002 7:42 am

And what are their cargo routes?

Click for large version
Click here for full size photo!

Photo © Ben Pritchard



p.s why is the 'Star Of David' altered in the main flag on the fuselage? isnt it the same as on the tail design?
.....up there with the best!
 
LY744
Posts: 5185
Joined: Sat Feb 03, 2001 11:55 pm

RE: Why No Livery On EL AL Cargo Planes?

Sat Mar 02, 2002 8:49 am

I believe that LY flies the TLV-AMS-JFK route several times a week. CLK should also get some LY freighters, I believe Seoul and Sri Lanka were mentioned as well.

LY744.
Pacifism only works if EVERYBODY practices it
 
Guest

RE: Why No Livery On EL AL Cargo Planes?

Sat Mar 02, 2002 2:28 pm

Theres quite a bit of trade in the Israel-Afrika arena too.

Airmale, what is your question about the star?
 
LJ
Posts: 4113
Joined: Wed Nov 17, 1999 8:28 pm

RE: Why No Livery On EL AL Cargo Planes?

Sat Mar 02, 2002 6:07 pm

Add the route TLV-AMS-ORD and several TLV-AMS-TLV flights. It looks like LY Cargo has rediscovered AMS (haven't seen them much in AMS after September 11th untill now)

LY744, the rumour in AMS is that LY indeed removed all logos because they didn't want to upset those living in the Bijlmermeer (or is it just pure coincidence?). However, I don't think this is the reason.

BTW can't wait to see those B744F's in AMS.

Regards
Laurens
 
LY744
Posts: 5185
Joined: Sat Feb 03, 2001 11:55 pm

RE: Why No Livery On EL AL Cargo Planes?

Sun Mar 03, 2002 12:46 am

Lj, my understanding is that the 744F idea has been put on hold, as the CEO who was in favor of getting rid of the 742's is on the way out.

LY744.
Pacifism only works if EVERYBODY practices it
 
elal106
Posts: 939
Joined: Mon Jan 10, 2000 1:50 pm

RE: Main Reason Why

Sun Mar 03, 2002 2:44 am

hey,

I didnt read any of the posts above this thread, so I might have repeated this by someone else who might have already said it.

The main reason is to SAVE MONEY.

elal106
 
El Al 001
Posts: 978
Joined: Sun Oct 31, 1999 11:50 pm

RE: Why No Livery On EL AL Cargo Planes?

Sun Mar 03, 2002 4:02 am

LY wont get the 744Fs for now. The airline keeps the 4 742Fs.

LY wouldnt paint those jets because its a money waste and theres no reason to do so.

When AXG crashed in AMS it had no titles already.
LY Cargo flies with no titles since the begining of the 90s, It started beacuse of the C.A.L operation during Shabath.
AXK and AXL were not painted because of money saving reasons.
Anyway, I can tell you that most of the things you guys wrote were true, these airliners are better with no titles...

LY CARGO flies to:
AMS, FRA, LHR,
ORD, LAX, JFK, MIA,
HKG/CLK, Seoul, Kazahtan and Nairobi.
Also to other destinations around the world according to demand.

With 4 747-200F/C;
4X-AXF,H,K,L.

Michael

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Alexa [Bot], Andy33, ArtV, Baidu [Spider], barney captain, Bing [Bot], coolian2, Glidesloper, netbucks, PhilDur, RalXWB, redroo, SexyAdonis, SyeaphanR, User001, zkncj and 229 guests