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wjcandee
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Bombardier Wins C-Series Case at ITC

Fri Jan 26, 2018 7:41 pm

https://www.cnbc.com/2018/01/26/boeing- ... -jets.html

The ITC did the right thing. My faith is restored.

BBC says the decision was 4-0 against Boeing. Unanimous. A finding, as is the right conclusion, of no injury.
 
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jnev3289
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Re: Bombardier Wins C-Series Case at ITC

Fri Jan 26, 2018 7:47 pm

Whoa
 
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admanager
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Re: Bombardier Wins C-Series Case at ITC

Fri Jan 26, 2018 7:49 pm

I'm assuming the deal with Airbus for shared ownership and new line in AL is going to stand.
 
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Super80Fan
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Re: Bombardier Wins C-Series Case at ITC

Fri Jan 26, 2018 7:49 pm

Holy moly that is fantastic!
RIP McDonnell Douglas
 
Speedalive
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Re: Bombardier Wins C-Series Case at ITC

Fri Jan 26, 2018 7:50 pm

Well that’s unexpected. Does Bombardier regret the sale of the CSeries to Airbus now given that there won’t be any tarifs or was it still the right move?
 
Armodeen
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Re: Bombardier Wins C-Series Case at ITC

Fri Jan 26, 2018 7:51 pm

Wow so all Boeing achieved was to push Bombardier into the hands of Airbus? :o :lol:
 
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neomax
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Re: Bombardier Wins C-Series Case at ITC

Fri Jan 26, 2018 7:51 pm

YESSSS!!!!! Thank you ITC, finally some sense prevails. As for Boeing, somebody's getting fired today.
 
EddieDude
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Re: Bombardier Wins C-Series Case at ITC

Fri Jan 26, 2018 7:52 pm

Wow, that was quick.

Is this resolution appealable? If it is, I sincerely hope Boeing just leaves Bombardier alone and moves on.

What needs to happen now in order fot the duties to be revoked? Is it automatic or do Bombardier or Delta need to carry out additional formalities with the Department of Commerce or another agency?
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Re: Bombardier Wins C-Series Case at ITC

Fri Jan 26, 2018 7:52 pm

I think it's still the right move for airbus and cseries to link. However what's clear now is that boeing is worse off than if they did nothing all along.
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caribb
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Re: Bombardier Wins C-Series Case at ITC

Fri Jan 26, 2018 7:53 pm

Logic finally prevails. This is awesome news. Congrats to Bombardier. Goods news for everyone especially at Mirabel, Belfast & Alabama and at Airbus.
Last edited by caribb on Fri Jan 26, 2018 7:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
Egerton
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Re: Bombardier Wins C-Series Case at ITC

Fri Jan 26, 2018 7:54 pm

 
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admanager
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Re: Bombardier Wins C-Series Case at ITC

Fri Jan 26, 2018 7:54 pm

MSPNWA wrote:
admanager wrote:
I'm assuming the deal with Airbus for shared ownership and new line in AL is going to stand.

There's no point for a Mobile line without U.S. tariffs.

I agree, but we don't know if BBD had already "given away the farm".
 
MSPNWA
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Re: Bombardier Wins C-Series Case at ITC

Fri Jan 26, 2018 7:55 pm

admanager wrote:
I'm assuming the deal with Airbus for shared ownership and new line in AL is going to stand.

There's no point for a Mobile line without U.S. tariffs.
 
SteinarN
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Re: Bombardier Wins C-Series Case at ITC

Fri Jan 26, 2018 7:58 pm

Wow! Absolutely fantastic news. My faith in fair competition based on products and performance is greatly restored when reading this.
 
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QuarkFly
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Re: Bombardier Wins C-Series Case at ITC

Fri Jan 26, 2018 7:59 pm

Wow !! That is a surprise. I don't know if there is an appeals process. Maybe B will come to its senses and realize that it may have more to lose on the defense side with Canada...and steps back from the war on C-Series.

But I hope Delta does not wait for some US assembly facility... and takes the C-Series as soon as possible.
Always take the Red Eye if possible
 
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YuriMG2
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Re: Bombardier Wins C-Series Case at ITC

Fri Jan 26, 2018 7:59 pm

Aparentely u can do whatever u want and get away with it.
 
wjcandee
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Re: Bombardier Wins C-Series Case at ITC

Fri Jan 26, 2018 8:01 pm

I think the Mobile line still makes sense for a number of reasons, not the least of which being that the CS300 and certainly the CS500 are more likely to be found to compete with an existing Boeing product -- hence today's finding of no injury as regards the CS100 would be less likely to apply.

What this decision does do is allow the CS100 to begin to be delivered to Delta sooner rather than later while the Mobile line is ramped up. With other Trump protectionist policies on the way, moving towards a Mobile line is a good move, and one that the Administration can celebrate, rather than try to undermine.
 
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YuriMG2
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Re: Bombardier Wins C-Series Case at ITC

Fri Jan 26, 2018 8:02 pm

SteinarN wrote:
Wow! Absolutely fantastic news. My faith in fair competition based on products and performance is greatly restored when reading this.


Subsidy, selling the planes for a fraction of the price, selling ur soul because of incompetence.

Are you really serious about the fair competition or ur just anti-Boeing?
 
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neomax
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Re: Bombardier Wins C-Series Case at ITC

Fri Jan 26, 2018 8:02 pm

Say it with me, karma is a bitch :lol:
 
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SumChristianus
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Re: Bombardier Wins C-Series Case at ITC

Fri Jan 26, 2018 8:02 pm

Will this end the tariffs though? International decisions may not necessarily be followed, or have to be, by a sovereign. I wish the President would stand up to an all too powerful Boeing, and ignore their manipiulations, but Boeing seems very good at pressing a case domestically. The A330MRTT/767 debacle, for example, where Boeing broke an agreed upon Air Force Contract, to be produced in AL (A330 tankers) in favor of Boeing for some reason.
B6 would be a great CS100 operator if they are able to reasonably acquire them, though.
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bgm
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Re: Bombardier Wins C-Series Case at ITC

Fri Jan 26, 2018 8:05 pm

A mighty big slap in the face to Boeing.

Good. They absolutely deserve it in this case. Looking forward to seeing the CS100 with DL soon!
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Egerton
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Re: Bombardier Wins C-Series Case at ITC

Fri Jan 26, 2018 8:08 pm

wjcandee wrote:
I think the Mobile line still makes sense for a number of reasons, not the least of which being that the CS300 and certainly the CS500 are more likely to be found to compete with an existing Boeing product -- hence today's finding of no injury as regards the CS100 would be less likely to apply.

What this decision does do is allow the CS100 to begin to be delivered to Delta sooner rather than later while the Mobile line is ramped up. With other Trump protectionist policies on the way, moving towards a Mobile line is a good move, and one that the Administration can celebrate, rather than try to undermine.


Agreed, and the Airbus/Bombardier deal will assist the prosperity of all parties except Boeing to be enhanced. Well done Boeing.

By the way, I would have preferred that the "Mobile line" would have been called the "line in the USA"
Last edited by Egerton on Fri Jan 26, 2018 8:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
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767333ER
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Re: Bombardier Wins C-Series Case at ITC

Fri Jan 26, 2018 8:08 pm

YuriMG2 wrote:
SteinarN wrote:
Wow! Absolutely fantastic news. My faith in fair competition based on products and performance is greatly restored when reading this.


Subsidy, selling the planes for a fraction of the price, selling ur soul because of incompetence.

Are you really serious about the fair competition or ur just anti-Boeing?

Funny because what you’re describing is exaclty what Boeing does.
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santi319
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Re: Bombardier Wins C-Series Case at ITC

Fri Jan 26, 2018 8:10 pm

So embarassing for Boeing but it was about time...
 
Sooner787
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Re: Bombardier Wins C-Series Case at ITC

Fri Jan 26, 2018 8:14 pm

Looking forward to seeing the CS100 in Delta colors , as well as B6 , United and who knows, maybe Southwest one day
as a true replacement for the B735 :)
 
Leslieville
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Re: Bombardier Wins C-Series Case at ITC

Fri Jan 26, 2018 8:16 pm

Good news. Glad to hear that this matter has been put to rest.

The C-Series is an excellent airplane and Boeing does not produce a product in its class. Boeing drove Bombardier to Airbus and the years ahead will now play out far differently than if Boeing had just let Bombardier and the C-Series languish with mediocre sales and major production issues, and likely eventually fail.

Now to make some popcorn to watch the responses roll in from the folks here who reacted with glee to the previous rulings and imposition of tariffs, the ones who were just so gratified that justice had been served and beleaguered Boeing would have a chance at competing on a level playing field.
Last edited by Leslieville on Fri Jan 26, 2018 8:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
sanjet
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Re: Bombardier Wins C-Series Case at ITC

Fri Jan 26, 2018 8:17 pm

YuriMG2 wrote:

Subsidy, selling the planes for a fraction of the price, selling ur soul because of incompetence.

Are you really serious about the fair competition or ur just anti-Boeing?


Have you ever seen the margins Boeing makes on government contracts?! The c-series is actually an operational game changing aircraft and that the sole reason Boeing is acting like this. They are behind with their ancient 737. They only sold vast quantities because the government/defence contracts subsidizes their airliner program.
Will Fly For Food!
 
lowfareair
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Re: Bombardier Wins C-Series Case at ITC

Fri Jan 26, 2018 8:19 pm

SumChristianus wrote:
Will this end the tariffs though? International decisions may not necessarily be followed, or have to be, by a sovereign.


This will end the tariffs, unless the US wants to throw every global trade deal it has into chaos. This was the method prescribed by the treaty used as the basis for applying the tariffs, so it should stand.
 
1900Driver
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Re: Bombardier Wins C-Series Case at ITC

Fri Jan 26, 2018 8:23 pm

YuriMG2 wrote:
SteinarN wrote:
Wow! Absolutely fantastic news. My faith in fair competition based on products and performance is greatly restored when reading this.


Subsidy, selling the planes for a fraction of the price, selling ur soul because of incompetence.

Are you really serious about the fair competition or ur just anti-Boeing?


Sorry Yuri, you’re being very naive & impartial.
 
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JetBuddy
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Re: Bombardier Wins C-Series Case at ITC

Fri Jan 26, 2018 8:24 pm

Excellent news.

I believe the Airbus / Bombardier deal will go ahead, and the FAL in Mobile will be completed either way.
 
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cv990Coronado
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Re: Bombardier Wins C-Series Case at ITC

Fri Jan 26, 2018 8:24 pm

Excellent news for free trade. Now Boeing please get back to the old ways of Boeing and show some innovation and courage. Forget the ways of McDonnell re hashing old designs and do something which will make you great again. Bill Allen didn’t give the go ahead for the 707 & 747 by complaining about competition he was a true leader and a visionary.
Otherwise in 20 years time Airbus and China will be the leaders and Boeing will be someone who was probably the greatest aircraft manufacturer ever.
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TWA772LR
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Re: Bombardier Wins C-Series Case at ITC

Fri Jan 26, 2018 8:25 pm

So what does this exactly mean; Are the tariffs removed? Does Boeing get any reprimand beyond public humiation?

The ITC can say what it eants, but it can't force the DoC to remove the tariff, but it should he removed as it violates NAFTA.
When wasn't America great?


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Sooner787
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Re: Bombardier Wins C-Series Case at ITC

Fri Jan 26, 2018 8:27 pm

cv990Coronado wrote:
Excellent news for free trade. Now Boeing please get back to the old ways of Boeing and show some innovation and courage. Forget the ways of McDonnell re hashing old designs and do something which will make you great again. Bill Allen didn’t give the go ahead for the 707 & 747 by complaining about competition he was a true leader and a visionary.
Otherwise in 20 years time Airbus and China will be the leaders and Boeing will be someone who was probably the greatest aircraft manufacturer ever.


Excellent points. I miss Bill Allen's Boeing. :)
Last edited by Sooner787 on Fri Jan 26, 2018 8:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
alan3
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Re: Bombardier Wins C-Series Case at ITC

Fri Jan 26, 2018 8:28 pm

So how soon until we hear Boeing announce some sort of new 737-500 or something small like that in order to compete?
 
mat66
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Re: Bombardier Wins C-Series Case at ITC

Fri Jan 26, 2018 8:29 pm

Egerton wrote:
wjcandee wrote:
I think the Mobile line still makes sense for a number of reasons, not the least of which being that the CS300 and certainly the CS500 are more likely to be found to compete with an existing Boeing product -- hence today's finding of no injury as regards the CS100 would be less likely to apply.

What this decision does do is allow the CS100 to begin to be delivered to Delta sooner rather than later while the Mobile line is ramped up. With other Trump protectionist policies on the way, moving towards a Mobile line is a good move, and one that the Administration can celebrate, rather than try to undermine.


Agreed, and the Airbus/Bombardier deal will assist the prosperity of all parties except Boeing to be enhanced. Well done Boeing.

By the way, I would have preferred that the "Mobile line" would have been called the "line in the USA"


It looks like the Mobile FAL will go ahead.

T. Enders: "We are happy to see that the ITC concurred with our views. We will carry on full steam with our C series project, focusing on addressing the needs of our airline customers and creating more and new, high-skill manufacturing jobs in the US." https://twitter.com/AirbusPRESS/status/ ... 08/photo/1

Good decision IMHO.
 
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DL747400
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Re: Bombardier Wins C-Series Case at ITC

Fri Jan 26, 2018 8:31 pm

There will surely be massive celebrations in ATL this evening.

Wonderful news for Bombardier and for DELTA. I wonder how long before CSeries training is restarted and DELTA publicly announces new routes to be operated by the CS100s.

P.S. BOEING: You got exactly what you deserved.
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CFRPwingALbody
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Re: Bombardier Wins C-Series Case at ITC

Fri Jan 26, 2018 8:33 pm

Congratulations to Bombardier, Airbus, US Airlines and also Boeing.
I also expect the US CSeries FAL will continue to be developed. I expect it's required to get Mirabel working.
This decision is good for the Boeing 797, Boeing can continue their program accounting practice.
 
Jamie514
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Re: Bombardier Wins C-Series Case at ITC

Fri Jan 26, 2018 8:38 pm

Very glad the panel was so clear.

Per a CBC News article Mobile “full assembly line” will go ahead, to protect against future trade attacks; Bbd anticipate a repeat with the next large USA order. I wonder if that means they intend to continue selling as low as the Delta deal which I didn’t really think was sustainable or necessary once the design is proven in service and backed by Airbus.

They also were very clear that the only Canadian components on Mobile product will be the cockpit and a small section of the tail.
 
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gatibosgru
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Re: Bombardier Wins C-Series Case at ITC

Fri Jan 26, 2018 8:40 pm

Champagne must be flowing at DL right now.
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wjcandee
Topic Author
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Re: Bombardier Wins C-Series Case at ITC

Fri Jan 26, 2018 8:41 pm

alan3 wrote:
So how soon until we hear Boeing announce some sort of new 737-500 or something small like that in order to compete?


Zero. Unless it comes from Embraer. The economics of the -600 sucked, which is why less than 70 were ever built.
 
 
surfdog75
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Re: Bombardier Wins C-Series Case at ITC

Fri Jan 26, 2018 8:44 pm

wjcandee wrote:
https://www.cnbc.com/2018/01/26/boeing-loses-trade-case-over-bombardier-passenger-jets.html

The ITC did the right thing. My faith is restored.

BBC says the decision was 4-0 against Boeing. Unanimous. A finding, as is the right conclusion, of no injury.


I'm with you, my faith is restored as well. I was beginning to think corruption might win the day. I love Boeing but they chose not to compete in this size market.
 
downdata
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Re: Bombardier Wins C-Series Case at ITC

Fri Jan 26, 2018 8:44 pm

Common sense prevailed today
 
WheelsUp
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Re: Bombardier Wins C-Series Case at ITC

Fri Jan 26, 2018 8:52 pm

Will Bombardier now regret having run into the arms of Airbus?
 
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aerolimani
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Re: Bombardier Wins C-Series Case at ITC

Fri Jan 26, 2018 8:53 pm

SumChristianus wrote:
Will this end the tariffs though? International decisions may not necessarily be followed, or have to be, by a sovereign. I wish the President would stand up to an all too powerful Boeing, and ignore their manipiulations, but Boeing seems very good at pressing a case domestically. The A330MRTT/767 debacle, for example, where Boeing broke an agreed upon Air Force Contract, to be produced in AL (A330 tankers) in favor of Boeing for some reason.
B6 would be a great CS100 operator if they are able to reasonably acquire them, though.

The ITC is a US organization. Officially, it is actually the USITC, the United States International Trade Commission.
 
burnsie28
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Re: Bombardier Wins C-Series Case at ITC

Fri Jan 26, 2018 8:57 pm

YuriMG2 wrote:
SteinarN wrote:
Wow! Absolutely fantastic news. My faith in fair competition based on products and performance is greatly restored when reading this.


Subsidy, selling the planes for a fraction of the price, selling ur soul because of incompetence.

Are you really serious about the fair competition or ur just anti-Boeing?



You do realize boeing does the same thing. They got $8.7 billion alone from the state of Washington. Secondly, Boeing complained when they didn't even offer the same product group. They claimed that it was hurting the much larger 737 MAX 7 when they didn't even offer that up, rather they offered used Embraer's. So wouldn't that have hurt the max the same way since they were not attempting to sell the 737 MAX 7 to DL?

Finally I'm pretty sure that the C Series has more US components than the 787 does. Either way, a large part of the C Series is made by US Companies. They claim it hurt US Aerospace companies but that's not true given the amount of companies that build parts for the C Series in the US. Secondly it hurts the US economy. Keeping a plane out that can allow expansion, new routes, etc offering business more choices to get business done. Boeing hurt themselves more by doing this trade case by losing high dollar government contracts. Even the first planes of each model Boeing sells are "at a loss" but since you basically spread the cost of production out over the lifespan it changes.

Boeing didn't develop an aircraft in this seat class, and now they are in talks with Embraer, funny how that works.
 
MSPNWA
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Re: Bombardier Wins C-Series Case at ITC

Fri Jan 26, 2018 8:57 pm

DL747400 wrote:
There will surely be massive celebrations in ATL this evening.

Wonderful news for Bombardier and for DELTA. I wonder how long before CSeries training is restarted and DELTA publicly announces new routes to be operated by the CS100s.

P.S. BOEING: You got exactly what you deserved.


I've never made it a Delta thing in this dispute, because it's not. This is a much broader issue that just happened to have Delta in it. But look at the hypocrisy.

Government-assisted airlines that are competitors - bad!
Government-assisted airlines that are partners - good!
Government-assisted aircraft manufacturers that give you a great deal - fantastic!

I don't know how anyone can be a fan of that behavior.
 
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aerolimani
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Re: Bombardier Wins C-Series Case at ITC

Fri Jan 26, 2018 8:58 pm

Jamie514 wrote:
Very glad the panel was so clear.

Per a CBC News article Mobile “full assembly line” will go ahead, to protect against future trade attacks; Bbd anticipate a repeat with the next large USA order. I wonder if that means they intend to continue selling as low as the Delta deal which I didn’t really think was sustainable or necessary once the design is proven in service and backed by Airbus.

They also were very clear that the only Canadian components on Mobile product will be the cockpit and a small section of the tail.

I can see Boeing taking another swing at the CSeries, just as a nuisance lawsuit. Eve if such a case were rejected again, it would still be disruptive to CSeries business. Having a US FAL for the CSeries will win friends in government, both Republican and Democrat.
 
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gatibosgru
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Re: Bombardier Wins C-Series Case at ITC

Fri Jan 26, 2018 9:02 pm

I wonder what Embraer thinks of all this?
@DadCelo
 
PPVRA
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Re: Bombardier Wins C-Series Case at ITC

Fri Jan 26, 2018 9:03 pm

MSPNWA wrote:
DL747400 wrote:
There will surely be massive celebrations in ATL this evening.

Wonderful news for Bombardier and for DELTA. I wonder how long before CSeries training is restarted and DELTA publicly announces new routes to be operated by the CS100s.

P.S. BOEING: You got exactly what you deserved.


I've never made it a Delta thing in this dispute, because it's not. This is a much broader issue that just happened to have Delta in it. But look at the hypocrisy.

Government-assisted airlines that are competitors - bad!
Government-assisted airlines that are partners - good!
Government-assisted aircraft manufacturers that give you a great deal - fantastic!

I don't know how anyone can be a fan of that behavior.


That’s just delta’s management doing their job- pursuing what benefits them. They’re not taking an ideological position, which would actually be inappropriate for them to do.
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