robbo2k
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Re: LOT news thread - 2018

Wed Mar 28, 2018 12:19 pm

Image

New engine for SP-LRF from Warsaw to JFK delivered AN-124

https://www.flightradar24.com/data/flig ... /#10d93b7c
 
klm617
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Re: LOT news thread - 2018

Wed Mar 28, 2018 2:11 pm

Is there any imformation on when LOT might start WAW to Detroit ?
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
PixelPilot
Posts: 78
Joined: Tue Jan 16, 2018 1:19 am

Re: LOT news thread - 2018

Wed Mar 28, 2018 4:29 pm

robbo2k wrote:
Image

New engine for SP-LRF from Warsaw to JFK delivered AN-124

https://www.flightradar24.com/data/flig ... /#10d93b7c


That was pretty quick.
Very cool shot.

klm617 wrote:
Is there any imformation on when LOT might start WAW to Detroit ?


I'm hoping for WAW-MIA first :)
 
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Alphazone
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Re: LOT news thread - 2018

Thu Mar 29, 2018 6:01 pm

klm617 wrote:
Is there any imformation on when LOT might start WAW to Detroit ?


If you make a petition for them, I will sign it
No conclusion can be offered, for the history recounted above is still unfolding.
 
robbo2k
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Re: LOT news thread - 2018

Tue Apr 24, 2018 9:12 am

Polish Airliners LOT order 3x787-9 from Avolon (delivery May x2 and October 2019). After all order LOT fleet 15x787
 
pdp
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Re: LOT news thread - 2018

Tue Apr 24, 2018 10:06 am

Not "news" as such, but SP-LWD spent a few days on the ramp at Lublin after apparently going tech when it was due to fly to Tel-Aviv (they flew in a B734 in the end). Must have been interesting for LOT maintenance as their nearest facilities are Rzeszów or Okęcie, and there aren't any large maintenance facilities for fixed wing aircraft at the airport (PZL Świdnik only does helicopters I believe).

Tangentially related, but Lublin is evidently having an extension of some form to its terminal being built as the empty space immediately east of the building has builder's hoarding around it. Maybe more LOT flights from there in the future? Public transport is desperately poor to just about everywhere in Poland from Lublin, with Wrocław and Kraków being a good NINE hours away. Warsaw is a positively nippy three hours at the moment.
 
konrad
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Re: LOT news thread - 2018

Tue Apr 24, 2018 11:32 am

pdp wrote:
Public transport is desperately poor to just about everywhere in Poland from Lublin, with Wrocław and Kraków being a good NINE hours away. Warsaw is a positively nippy three hours at the moment.


Let's not exagerate, as per googlemaps it is 4h by road to Kraków and 5h30 to Wrocław with numerous companies running bus service. Hardly "good NINE hours away".
 
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ricport
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Re: LOT news thread - 2018

Tue Apr 24, 2018 12:12 pm

It'd be interesting if LO would try to establish IAD service, so they could link up with UA's hub there. As most americans know, it's WAY easier to connect at IAD than the nightmares known as EWR and ORD.
 
baje427
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Re: LOT news thread - 2018

Tue Apr 24, 2018 12:29 pm

What is LO's plan for their Q400's?
 
stlgph
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Re: LOT news thread - 2018

Tue Apr 24, 2018 1:48 pm

Nice to see LOT's continued growth and hoping this Budapest venture pays off.
Can't help but think an eventual E2 series or Cseries order down the road would be a nice fit for their current (and growing) network.
if assumptions could fly, airliners.net would be the world's busiest airport
 
noviorbis77
Posts: 241
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Re: LOT news thread - 2018

Tue Apr 24, 2018 2:00 pm

I'll be sad to see Chopin close. Very convenient for getting to the city center.
 
robbo2k
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Re: LOT news thread - 2018

Tue Apr 24, 2018 2:26 pm

LOT wants to become the dominant carrier in Central and Eastern Europe.

Image

The Polish government wants to build a huge airport for 50 million passengers around Warsaw (Baranów)

Image



Q400 (LOT order wet-lease 2xQ400 for summer season) Q400 they will stay in the fleet up to 2022. Now LOT lease additionally
6xEMB195 (ex Azul) and LOT is waiting for delivery 737MAX8
 
winter
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Re: LOT news thread - 2018

Wed Apr 25, 2018 12:57 am

By 2019, they will have doubled their fleet from 2016. LOT's really rapid expansion in the last year or two is beginning to look a bit reckless. Reminds me a bit of U.S. airline's over expanding in the 80's and 90's, and building hubs in smaller cities that just didn't have the local demand to support them.
 
rafalyyz
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Re: LOT news thread - 2018

Wed Apr 25, 2018 5:07 am

hoya wrote:

I'm simply not convinced it's necessary. LGW has a single runway and has way more passengers and aircraft movements. I believe that the new airport is a vanity project for the current government. WAW has no room to grow? How about eliminating the Dzialki Ogrodowe just west of runway 33? Or building a new terminal, or expanding the current one, further north closer to the maintenance area? ...


You're absolutely right, it's not necessary. It's another harebrained idea by the current government, who seem to think they are experts in aviation.
 
Blerg
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Re: LOT news thread - 2018

Wed Apr 25, 2018 5:09 am

winter wrote:
By 2019, they will have doubled their fleet from 2016. LOT's really rapid expansion in the last year or two is beginning to look a bit reckless. Reminds me a bit of U.S. airline's over expanding in the 80's and 90's, and building hubs in smaller cities that just didn't have the local demand to support them.


The only difference is that LO is expanding in a single base/airport/city unlike those US airlines you mentioned. They are working on building a mega hub which makes sense given that there are no major players in their area especially now when AB went bust and when there is no adequate infrastructure at TXL for it to become a threat.

LO understood that they need critical mass in order to survive. That's exactly what they are doing. Don't forget that a decade ago they had to face stiff competition from airlines such as CSA or Malev. Neither one is a threat today.
 
winter
Posts: 35
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Re: LOT news thread - 2018

Wed Apr 25, 2018 2:20 pm

Blerg wrote:
winter wrote:
The only difference is that LO is expanding in a single base/airport/city unlike those US airlines you mentioned. They are working on building a mega hub which makes sense given that there are no major players in their area especially now when AB went bust and when there is no adequate infrastructure at TXL for it to become a threat.

LO understood that they need critical mass in order to survive. That's exactly what they are doing. Don't forget that a decade ago they had to face stiff competition from airlines such as CSA or Malev. Neither one is a threat today.


To your first point, a hub is a hub, doesn't matter if its a single hub system or multi. You could even argue that a multi hub system would reinforce weaker hubs rather than relying on a single weak hub city.

Secondly, the argument about lack of major players in the area is a falsehood played up by LOT'S own marketing and management. There are major players serving the CEE market, there's LH with MUC, OS with VIE, TK with IST, SU with SVO. Lufthansa alone has more feeder flights into the region than all of LOT's operations combined. That's just an inconvenient truth often ignored.

At, the end of the day LOT is riding high on the current wave of cheap fuel and good economic conditions but their only chasing after market share which is exactly what ruined US airlines before consolidation.

I'm really curious where they will be when the "music stops", and they're left with leases on 15 dreamliners.
 
Blerg
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Re: LOT news thread - 2018

Wed Apr 25, 2018 5:05 pm

winter wrote:
Blerg wrote:
winter wrote:
The only difference is that LO is expanding in a single base/airport/city unlike those US airlines you mentioned. They are working on building a mega hub which makes sense given that there are no major players in their area especially now when AB went bust and when there is no adequate infrastructure at TXL for it to become a threat.

LO understood that they need critical mass in order to survive. That's exactly what they are doing. Don't forget that a decade ago they had to face stiff competition from airlines such as CSA or Malev. Neither one is a threat today.


To your first point, a hub is a hub, doesn't matter if its a single hub system or multi. You could even argue that a multi hub system would reinforce weaker hubs rather than relying on a single weak hub city.

Secondly, the argument about lack of major players in the area is a falsehood played up by LOT'S own marketing and management. There are major players serving the CEE market, there's LH with MUC, OS with VIE, TK with IST, SU with SVO. Lufthansa alone has more feeder flights into the region than all of LOT's operations combined. That's just an inconvenient truth often ignored.

At, the end of the day LOT is riding high on the current wave of cheap fuel and good economic conditions but their only chasing after market share which is exactly what ruined US airlines before consolidation.

I'm really curious where they will be when the "music stops", and they're left with leases on 15 dreamliners.


Most European airlines that tried to operate multiple hubs decided against it and went for a single one in stead. From what I know only Lufthansa manages to efficiently operate two hubs.

Austrian Airlines is an hour away and they are going to be facing tough competition from Wizz Air this year. God only knows what will become of them. Moscow is far away and they are after a whole different market. Not to mention that LO and SU mostly compete (to Asia) in markets which are big enough for both players.
That leaves us with Lufthansa with its MUC and FRA hubs. As with SU and Asia, the market is big enough for these three to coexist.All in all, I think there is more room for LO to grow.

In other news, today they announced that SKP will be served year-round.
 
winter
Posts: 35
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Re: LOT news thread - 2018

Wed Apr 25, 2018 5:38 pm

Blerg wrote:

Most European airlines that tried to operate multiple hubs decided against it and went for a single one in stead. From what I know only Lufthansa manages to efficiently operate two hubs.

Austrian Airlines is an hour away and they are going to be facing tough competition from Wizz Air this year. God only knows what will become of them. Moscow is far away and they are after a whole different market. Not to mention that LO and SU mostly compete (to Asia) in markets which are big enough for both players.
That leaves us with Lufthansa with its MUC and FRA hubs. As with SU and Asia, the market is big enough for these three to coexist.All in all, I think there is more room for LO to grow.

In other news, today they announced that SKP will be served year-round.


Hubs in secondary cities don't work, because of weak local demand, regardless of whether it's a single hub or multi hub system. In all fairness, LH operates four hubs (FRA, MUC, ZRH, VIE), but even if you limit it to FRA and MUC, the two hubs are co-equals. LH serves a greater number of destinations from MUC. Furthermore, Munich and surrounding Bavaria generate significant local demand.

Why do you consider W6 a mortal threat to OS's hub in VIE, but dismiss W6's growing presence in WAW and FR's massive presence at Warsaw's secondary airport WMI as threats to LO? All the EU carriers face stiff LCC competition.

OS isn't going anywhere.

You're also forgetting TK, which has a massive presence in South Eastern Europe and serves more cities in Ukraine(a key market for LO) than LO. Additionally, TK, SU, and even AY are all chasing after the same price conscious traffic going between Europe and Asia.

A mega hub in Warsaw, is a pipe dream, and I'm surprised that that's a serious consideration for LO.

Of course LO can grow, the market is growing. But the current rate of growth seems reckless and ultimately unsustainable. A downturn is inevitable, and my concern is that LOT'S overall weakness and rapid expansion will leave it overexposed.
 
Blerg
Posts: 933
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Re: LOT news thread - 2018

Wed Apr 25, 2018 5:50 pm

winter wrote:
Blerg wrote:

Most European airlines that tried to operate multiple hubs decided against it and went for a single one in stead. From what I know only Lufthansa manages to efficiently operate two hubs.

Austrian Airlines is an hour away and they are going to be facing tough competition from Wizz Air this year. God only knows what will become of them. Moscow is far away and they are after a whole different market. Not to mention that LO and SU mostly compete (to Asia) in markets which are big enough for both players.
That leaves us with Lufthansa with its MUC and FRA hubs. As with SU and Asia, the market is big enough for these three to coexist.All in all, I think there is more room for LO to grow.

In other news, today they announced that SKP will be served year-round.


Hubs in secondary cities don't work, because of weak local demand, regardless of whether it's a single hub or multi hub system. In all fairness, LH operates four hubs (FRA, MUC, ZRH, VIE), but even if you limit it to FRA and MUC, the two hubs are co-equals. LH serves a greater number of destinations from MUC. Furthermore, Munich and surrounding Bavaria generate significant local demand.

Why do you consider W6 a mortal threat to OS's hub in VIE, but dismiss W6's growing presence in WAW and FR's massive presence at Warsaw's secondary airport WMI as threats to LO? All the EU carriers face stiff LCC competition.

OS isn't going anywhere.

You're also forgetting TK, which has a massive presence in South Eastern Europe and serves more cities in Ukraine(a key market for LO) than LO. Additionally, TK, SU, and even AY are all chasing after the same price conscious traffic going between Europe and Asia.

A mega hub in Warsaw, is a pipe dream, and I'm surprised that that's a serious consideration for LO.

Of course LO can grow, the market is growing. But the current rate of growth seems reckless and ultimately unsustainable. A downturn is inevitable, and my concern is that LOT'S overall weakness and rapid expansion will leave it overexposed.


I am not mentioning LCCs in Warsaw because they have been there for many years now and LO has found a way to deal with them. Wizz Air's entry into Vienna represents something completely new for OS, they've never experienced it. On top of that their costs are much higher meaning that it's more challenging to effectively fight Wizz Air which has launched some routes where the two will directly compete. OS might not be going anywhere but I wouldn't be surprised if greater emphasis is put on Eurowings in that area.

I did not forget TK. They are just not directly competing with Lot, at least not to the same extent LO does with LH or OS. On top of that TK is some two and a half hours away. By that logic AZ , KL or AF are also competition to LO.

LO needed to figure something out, that is a way to remain relevant in today's business otherwise they would have no other solution than to shut their doors for good. Customers would stand to lose the most from that.
 
winter
Posts: 35
Joined: Fri Jul 18, 2014 1:01 am

Re: LOT news thread - 2018

Wed Apr 25, 2018 6:20 pm

Blerg wrote:
winter wrote:
Blerg wrote:

Most European airlines that tried to operate multiple hubs decided against it and went for a single one in stead. From what I know only Lufthansa manages to efficiently operate two hubs.

Austrian Airlines is an hour away and they are going to be facing tough competition from Wizz Air this year. God only knows what will become of them. Moscow is far away and they are after a whole different market. Not to mention that LO and SU mostly compete (to Asia) in markets which are big enough for both players.
That leaves us with Lufthansa with its MUC and FRA hubs. As with SU and Asia, the market is big enough for these three to coexist.All in all, I think there is more room for LO to grow.

In other news, today they announced that SKP will be served year-round.


Hubs in secondary cities don't work, because of weak local demand, regardless of whether it's a single hub or multi hub system. In all fairness, LH operates four hubs (FRA, MUC, ZRH, VIE), but even if you limit it to FRA and MUC, the two hubs are co-equals. LH serves a greater number of destinations from MUC. Furthermore, Munich and surrounding Bavaria generate significant local demand.

Why do you consider W6 a mortal threat to OS's hub in VIE, but dismiss W6's growing presence in WAW and FR's massive presence at Warsaw's secondary airport WMI as threats to LO? All the EU carriers face stiff LCC competition.

OS isn't going anywhere.

You're also forgetting TK, which has a massive presence in South Eastern Europe and serves more cities in Ukraine(a key market for LO) than LO. Additionally, TK, SU, and even AY are all chasing after the same price conscious traffic going between Europe and Asia.

A mega hub in Warsaw, is a pipe dream, and I'm surprised that that's a serious consideration for LO.

Of course LO can grow, the market is growing. But the current rate of growth seems reckless and ultimately unsustainable. A downturn is inevitable, and my concern is that LOT'S overall weakness and rapid expansion will leave it overexposed.


I am not mentioning LCCs in Warsaw because they have been there for many years now and LO has found a way to deal with them. Wizz Air's entry into Vienna represents something completely new for OS, they've never experienced it. On top of that their costs are much higher meaning that it's more challenging to effectively fight Wizz Air which has launched some routes where the two will directly compete. OS might not be going anywhere but I wouldn't be surprised if greater emphasis is put on Eurowings in that area.

I did not forget TK. They are just not directly competing with Lot, at least not to the same extent LO does with LH or OS. On top of that TK is some two and a half hours away. By that logic AZ , KL or AF are also competition to LO.

LO needed to figure something out, that is a way to remain relevant in today's business otherwise they would have no other solution than to shut their doors for good. Customers would stand to lose the most from that.


LO hasn't found a way to deal with LCC's, LO is counting on the PL govt to protect it. LO's transfer traffic at WAW is being subsidized by the airport(and the other airlines operating to WAW) through an 85% reduction in airport fees for transferring passengers. The airport is implementing further measures to defend LO from competition by voluntarily introducing a strict night ban at WAW, which was directed at W6 and their early starts/late arrivals, by prohibiting refueling while boarding to lengthen turnaround times and recently even refused to grant new slots at off-peak times to EK. Additionally, the aiport operator for WAW has been actively blocking the expansion of WMI, where it's a minority shareholder but with veto rights, to limit the growth of FR.

It's only a matter of time before the EU commission takes a look at these anti-competitive measures.

For example, TK carries a significant amount of VFR traffic between US and Ukraine, those are certainly passengers that LO is after. Same thing in SKP, which you mentioned yourself. TK is a major player in the CEE and SEE markets. Similarly with East-West traffic, LO and TK compete for the same traffic going to Asia from Europe.

No one is advocating LO's shutdown, but it seems the recent explosive growth at LO and dreams of a mega hub in Poland are more a product of resurgent nationalism than sustainable market demand.
 
Blerg
Posts: 933
Joined: Tue Jan 09, 2018 11:42 am

Re: LOT news thread - 2018

Wed Apr 25, 2018 6:40 pm

winter wrote:
Blerg wrote:
winter wrote:

Hubs in secondary cities don't work, because of weak local demand, regardless of whether it's a single hub or multi hub system. In all fairness, LH operates four hubs (FRA, MUC, ZRH, VIE), but even if you limit it to FRA and MUC, the two hubs are co-equals. LH serves a greater number of destinations from MUC. Furthermore, Munich and surrounding Bavaria generate significant local demand.

Why do you consider W6 a mortal threat to OS's hub in VIE, but dismiss W6's growing presence in WAW and FR's massive presence at Warsaw's secondary airport WMI as threats to LO? All the EU carriers face stiff LCC competition.

OS isn't going anywhere.

You're also forgetting TK, which has a massive presence in South Eastern Europe and serves more cities in Ukraine(a key market for LO) than LO. Additionally, TK, SU, and even AY are all chasing after the same price conscious traffic going between Europe and Asia.

A mega hub in Warsaw, is a pipe dream, and I'm surprised that that's a serious consideration for LO.

Of course LO can grow, the market is growing. But the current rate of growth seems reckless and ultimately unsustainable. A downturn is inevitable, and my concern is that LOT'S overall weakness and rapid expansion will leave it overexposed.


I am not mentioning LCCs in Warsaw because they have been there for many years now and LO has found a way to deal with them. Wizz Air's entry into Vienna represents something completely new for OS, they've never experienced it. On top of that their costs are much higher meaning that it's more challenging to effectively fight Wizz Air which has launched some routes where the two will directly compete. OS might not be going anywhere but I wouldn't be surprised if greater emphasis is put on Eurowings in that area.

I did not forget TK. They are just not directly competing with Lot, at least not to the same extent LO does with LH or OS. On top of that TK is some two and a half hours away. By that logic AZ , KL or AF are also competition to LO.

LO needed to figure something out, that is a way to remain relevant in today's business otherwise they would have no other solution than to shut their doors for good. Customers would stand to lose the most from that.


LO hasn't found a way to deal with LCC's, LO is counting on the PL govt to protect it. LO's transfer traffic at WAW is being subsidized by the airport(and the other airlines operating to WAW) through an 85% reduction in airport fees for transferring passengers. The airport is implementing further measures to defend LO from competition by voluntarily introducing a strict night ban at WAW, which was directed at W6 and their early starts/late arrivals, by prohibiting refueling while boarding to lengthen turnaround times and recently even refused to grant new slots at off-peak times to EK. Additionally, the aiport operator for WAW has been actively blocking the expansion of WMI, where it's a minority shareholder but with veto rights, to limit the growth of FR.

It's only a matter of time before the EU commission takes a look at these anti-competitive measures.

For example, TK carries a significant amount of VFR traffic between US and Ukraine, those are certainly passengers that LO is after. Same thing in SKP, which you mentioned yourself. TK is a major player in the CEE and SEE markets. Similarly with East-West traffic, LO and TK compete for the same traffic going to Asia from Europe.

No one is advocating LO's shutdown, but it seems the recent explosive growth at LO and dreams of a mega hub in Poland are more a product of resurgent nationalism than sustainable market demand.


Ok but then by that logic isn't Wizz Air also subsidized by an investment company? Why should the Polish government favour a Hungarian based airline over their own? As we've seen in many European countries, people are not willing to just let go of their own national airlines.
My point is that Wizz Air is not creating an even playing field. They have strong financial backing so they are much better suited to destroy their competition and once they are gone to increase the average fare.
 
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holcakker
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Re: LOT news thread - 2018

Wed Apr 25, 2018 6:49 pm

Blerg wrote:
I am not mentioning LCCs in Warsaw because they have been there for many years now and LO has found a way to deal with them. .


The way they dealt with LCCs was narrowly surviving on state aids and nearly following the fate of Malev. They had to cut back fleet/overexpansion to avoid paying back those aids. Now they are repeating their own mistakes again. The state is openly protecting them against all other airlines (not only LCCs but even polish ones like Enter Air which they want to push out of WAW as well). PANSA is a joke blocking/slowing down any meaningful improvement of every polish airports other than WAW. The thing they do with FR in WMI is downright disgusting. Etc etc.
 
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holcakker
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Re: LOT news thread - 2018

Wed Apr 25, 2018 7:13 pm

Blerg wrote:
Ok but then by that logic isn't Wizz Air also subsidized by an investment company? Why should the Polish government favour a Hungarian based airline over their own? ... My point is that Wizz Air is not creating an even playing field. They have strong financial backing so they are much better suited to destroy their competition and once they are gone to increase the average fare.


Wizz Air is not subsidized by an investment company but making decent profit year in-year out after 14 years of hard work (e.g. employing thousands of polish crew; basing 25 aircraft in Poland; creating real airports from small Polish secondary airports like Katowice, Gdansk, Lublin etc. Just check the passenger figures before and after 2004 - and it did not happen because of ATR/Embraer flights of LOT). Why the Hungarian government favour a Polish-based airline over their own basing a B-787 to BUD to operate a secondary hub from there? Based on common sense and economical benefits and not the bloody flag painted on the side of the aircraft (which would be the main point of the EU after all).
 
winter
Posts: 35
Joined: Fri Jul 18, 2014 1:01 am

Re: LOT news thread - 2018

Wed Apr 25, 2018 7:27 pm

Blerg wrote:
winter wrote:
Blerg wrote:

I am not mentioning LCCs in Warsaw because they have been there for many years now and LO has found a way to deal with them. Wizz Air's entry into Vienna represents something completely new for OS, they've never experienced it. On top of that their costs are much higher meaning that it's more challenging to effectively fight Wizz Air which has launched some routes where the two will directly compete. OS might not be going anywhere but I wouldn't be surprised if greater emphasis is put on Eurowings in that area.

I did not forget TK. They are just not directly competing with Lot, at least not to the same extent LO does with LH or OS. On top of that TK is some two and a half hours away. By that logic AZ , KL or AF are also competition to LO.

LO needed to figure something out, that is a way to remain relevant in today's business otherwise they would have no other solution than to shut their doors for good. Customers would stand to lose the most from that.


LO hasn't found a way to deal with LCC's, LO is counting on the PL govt to protect it. LO's transfer traffic at WAW is being subsidized by the airport(and the other airlines operating to WAW) through an 85% reduction in airport fees for transferring passengers. The airport is implementing further measures to defend LO from competition by voluntarily introducing a strict night ban at WAW, which was directed at W6 and their early starts/late arrivals, by prohibiting refueling while boarding to lengthen turnaround times and recently even refused to grant new slots at off-peak times to EK. Additionally, the aiport operator for WAW has been actively blocking the expansion of WMI, where it's a minority shareholder but with veto rights, to limit the growth of FR.

It's only a matter of time before the EU commission takes a look at these anti-competitive measures.

For example, TK carries a significant amount of VFR traffic between US and Ukraine, those are certainly passengers that LO is after. Same thing in SKP, which you mentioned yourself. TK is a major player in the CEE and SEE markets. Similarly with East-West traffic, LO and TK compete for the same traffic going to Asia from Europe.

No one is advocating LO's shutdown, but it seems the recent explosive growth at LO and dreams of a mega hub in Poland are more a product of resurgent nationalism than sustainable market demand.


Ok but then by that logic isn't Wizz Air also subsidized by an investment company? Why should the Polish government favour a Hungarian based airline over their own? As we've seen in many European countries, people are not willing to just let go of their own national airlines.
My point is that Wizz Air is not creating an even playing field. They have strong financial backing so they are much better suited to destroy their competition and once they are gone to increase the average fare.


There’s a very big difference between the two. W6 is a private corporation, and LOT is a state enterprise. EU law prohibits subsidizing state enterprises such as airlines. LO was already bailed out by the state in 2012.

As holcakker state, W6 is a company with a history of profits and a clear business strategy, this in turn attracted investors and had paved the way for a successful launch on the London stock exchange.

Nothing is standing in the way from LO finding a private investor or from seeking new capital through an IPO.

But, we both know that investor’s aren’t jumping at the chance to invest in LO. The previous government couldn’t find a buyer despite searching for years and hiring Rothschild and PwC to assist. This lack of interest from investors really speak volumes about LO’s financial health and business plan.
 
Blerg
Posts: 933
Joined: Tue Jan 09, 2018 11:42 am

Re: LOT news thread - 2018

Wed Apr 25, 2018 7:37 pm

Wasn't Varadi the one who signed those disastrous leases for MA back in 2001? ;)

Anyway. Wizz Air is/was subsidized by an investment fund on top of starting with a clean slate, two things LO never had. Why shouldn't the government back LO until they sort out the issues they inherited from another era when the government used the airline for its own benefit? LO is actually trying to get their act together. It's not like the government is protecting them while maintaining a status quo.

Also, funny you mention Lublin airport as Wizz Air is announcing the termination of three routes from there: Doncaster, Liverpool and Tel Aviv. To me it seems like Ryanair had just as much to do with waking up these sleepy towns as W6 did. LO's strategy is similar to the one Aegean, Austrian Airlines, Finnair ... have.

Anyway, Wizz Air has been profitable for the last few years. I doubt those profits were high enough for them to be able to afford 279 brand new aircraft.
 
Blerg
Posts: 933
Joined: Tue Jan 09, 2018 11:42 am

Re: LOT news thread - 2018

Wed Apr 25, 2018 7:39 pm

winter wrote:
Blerg wrote:
winter wrote:

LO hasn't found a way to deal with LCC's, LO is counting on the PL govt to protect it. LO's transfer traffic at WAW is being subsidized by the airport(and the other airlines operating to WAW) through an 85% reduction in airport fees for transferring passengers. The airport is implementing further measures to defend LO from competition by voluntarily introducing a strict night ban at WAW, which was directed at W6 and their early starts/late arrivals, by prohibiting refueling while boarding to lengthen turnaround times and recently even refused to grant new slots at off-peak times to EK. Additionally, the aiport operator for WAW has been actively blocking the expansion of WMI, where it's a minority shareholder but with veto rights, to limit the growth of FR.

It's only a matter of time before the EU commission takes a look at these anti-competitive measures.

For example, TK carries a significant amount of VFR traffic between US and Ukraine, those are certainly passengers that LO is after. Same thing in SKP, which you mentioned yourself. TK is a major player in the CEE and SEE markets. Similarly with East-West traffic, LO and TK compete for the same traffic going to Asia from Europe.

No one is advocating LO's shutdown, but it seems the recent explosive growth at LO and dreams of a mega hub in Poland are more a product of resurgent nationalism than sustainable market demand.


Ok but then by that logic isn't Wizz Air also subsidized by an investment company? Why should the Polish government favour a Hungarian based airline over their own? As we've seen in many European countries, people are not willing to just let go of their own national airlines.
My point is that Wizz Air is not creating an even playing field. They have strong financial backing so they are much better suited to destroy their competition and once they are gone to increase the average fare.


There’s a very big difference between the two. W6 is a private corporation, and LOT is a state enterprise. EU law prohibits subsidizing state enterprises such as airlines. LO was already bailed out by the state in 2012.

As holcakker state, W6 is a company with a history of profits and a clear business strategy, this in turn attracted investors and had paved the way for a successful launch on the London stock exchange.

Nothing is standing in the way from LO finding a private investor or from seeking new capital through an IPO.

But, we both know that investor’s aren’t jumping at the chance to invest in LO. The previous government couldn’t find a buyer despite searching for years and hiring Rothschild and PwC to assist. This lack of interest from investors really speak volumes about LO’s financial health and business plan.


Just a small correction, the EU does allow governments to subsidize their national companies but under strict rules. That was one of the reasons why LO couldn't have expanded for a few years.
 
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holcakker
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Re: LOT news thread - 2018

Wed Apr 25, 2018 8:03 pm

Blerg wrote:
Wasn't Varadi the one who signed those disastrous leases for MA back in 2001? ;)

What disatrous leases, please? He was widely praised for arranging the NGs with the best possible terms after 9/11
(so that Malev could avoid using 20-25 years old Classics) which out of a sudden became "disastrous lease" when
he left and started another airline. C'mon...
 
Blerg
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Re: LOT news thread - 2018

Wed Apr 25, 2018 8:47 pm

holcakker wrote:
Blerg wrote:
Wasn't Varadi the one who signed those disastrous leases for MA back in 2001? ;)

What disatrous leases, please? He was widely praised for arranging the NGs with the best possible terms after 9/11
(so that Malev could avoid using 20-25 years old Classics) which out of a sudden became "disastrous lease" when
he left and started another airline. C'mon...


Leases were extremely expensive and were one of the main reasons why the airline could not recover. It was mentioned quite often back then. I think it was even included in the government's white paper on Malev.

What 20-25 year old aircraft are we talking about here? The first B737-700 (HA-LOA) was delivered in 2003 and at that time the airline operated seven B733s.

HA-LES (1994)
HA-LEX (1991)
HA-LED (1991 - delivered brand new)
HA-LET (1991)
HA-LEF (1991 - delivered brand new)
HA-LEG (1991 - delivered brand new)
HA-LEJ (1994 - delivered brand new)

That means that by the time the first B737NG arrived, Malev's oldest B733 was 12 years old. Did an airline such as MA, which was losing money back then, need to renew its fleet?

Anyway, just wanted to point this out and I don't want this discussion to go off topic. The point was that W6 is no replacement for LO and the government should act to protect its national carrier especially as it's used to link the Polish diaspora with the motherland.
 
winter
Posts: 35
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Re: LOT news thread - 2018

Wed Apr 25, 2018 9:13 pm

Blerg wrote:
Anyway. Wizz Air is/was subsidized by an investment fund on top of starting with a clean slate, two things LO never had. Why shouldn't the government back LO until they sort out the issues they inherited from another era when the government used the airline for its own benefit? LO is actually trying to get their act together. It's not like the government is protecting them while maintaining a status quo.


You've lost me here. In the 29 years since the fall of communism, LO has made a profit exactly four (4) times. LO has been "trying to get their act together" for those 29 years, and, only now, when nearly every airline is reporting record results, its suddenly "gotten its act together?"

Never having a "clean slate" is another half truth, LO had about 3 billion zloty (750 million Euro) in assets in 2007, it subsequently burned through all that, and landed itself in insolvency in 2012. NOW its getting it act together.

I will repeat again, governments aren't allowed to subsidize airlines in Europe, it distorts competition. If LO's business strategy is as great as you say why is it that only the government is interested in this venture, why is no investor looking for these great returns?

Blerg wrote:
LO's strategy is similar to the one Aegean, Austrian Airlines, Finnair ... have.

None of theses have grown 30% per year, we're talking about a network carrier in the middle of Europe, not some start-up going from 3 to 4 aircraft.

Blerg wrote:
Just a small correction, the EU does allow governments to subsidize their national companies but under strict rules. That was one of the reasons why LO couldn't have expanded for a few years.


No, the EU doesn’t allow state aid for airlines, it permitted rescue aid for LO, and that did come with strings attached.

Blerg wrote:
Leases were extremely expensive and were one of the main reasons why the airline could not recover. It was mentioned quite often back then. I think it was even included in the government's white paper on Malev.


Funny you should mention leases. All the recent fleet additions by LO has been operating leases, LO hasn’t built any new equity. It can’t, LO hasn’t been able to find a financial institution willing to provide it credit for the purchase of new aircraft. The PL government has even floated the idea of starting its own leasing company to provide LO with cheaper leased aircraft than available for major lessors.
 
Blerg
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Re: LOT news thread - 2018

Thu Apr 26, 2018 5:14 am

winter wrote:
Blerg wrote:
Anyway. Wizz Air is/was subsidized by an investment fund on top of starting with a clean slate, two things LO never had. Why shouldn't the government back LO until they sort out the issues they inherited from another era when the government used the airline for its own benefit? LO is actually trying to get their act together. It's not like the government is protecting them while maintaining a status quo.


You've lost me here. In the 29 years since the fall of communism, LO has made a profit exactly four (4) times. LO has been "trying to get their act together" for those 29 years, and, only now, when nearly every airline is reporting record results, its suddenly "gotten its act together?"

Never having a "clean slate" is another half truth, LO had about 3 billion zloty (750 million Euro) in assets in 2007, it subsequently burned through all that, and landed itself in insolvency in 2012. NOW its getting it act together.

I will repeat again, governments aren't allowed to subsidize airlines in Europe, it distorts competition. If LO's business strategy is as great as you say why is it that only the government is interested in this venture, why is no investor looking for these great returns?

Blerg wrote:
LO's strategy is similar to the one Aegean, Austrian Airlines, Finnair ... have.

None of theses have grown 30% per year, we're talking about a network carrier in the middle of Europe, not some start-up going from 3 to 4 aircraft.

Blerg wrote:
Just a small correction, the EU does allow governments to subsidize their national companies but under strict rules. That was one of the reasons why LO couldn't have expanded for a few years.


No, the EU doesn’t allow state aid for airlines, it permitted rescue aid for LO, and that did come with strings attached.

Blerg wrote:
Leases were extremely expensive and were one of the main reasons why the airline could not recover. It was mentioned quite often back then. I think it was even included in the government's white paper on Malev.


Funny you should mention leases. All the recent fleet additions by LO has been operating leases, LO hasn’t built any new equity. It can’t, LO hasn’t been able to find a financial institution willing to provide it credit for the purchase of new aircraft. The PL government has even floated the idea of starting its own leasing company to provide LO with cheaper leased aircraft than available for major lessors.



Please, read the Lisbon Treaty before making definitive statements. State aid for airlines is allowed but only under strict conditions and only once every ten years. Did LO have the same management before 2012 and today? If it didn't then we can't compare the two situations.

I will repeat what I already said before. In my opinion it's perfectly fine for the Polish government to protect its own national airline and to help them in any way possible. From what I can see everything they did until now was perfectly legal.
In my opinion, this is the first time LO is actually working hard on promoting itself as a serious carrier operating a true hub in Warsaw. They have the right fleet, both for short-haul and long-haul flights. Anyway, didn't their finances improve in 2017? From what I can see they are expecting a net profit for last year.
 
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holcakker
Posts: 98
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Re: LOT news thread - 2018

Thu Apr 26, 2018 8:42 am

Blerg wrote:
[
Leases were extremely expensive and were one of the main reasons why the airline could not recover. It was mentioned quite often back then. I think it was even included in the government's white paper on Malev.

What 20-25 year old aircraft are we talking about here? Did an airline such as MA, which was losing money back then, need to renew its fleet?

The expensive lease-theory was simple BS and excuse. The real reason was theft on all levels.

The 20-25 years old aircraft I was talking about are LOT's B-734s. Without the NGs Malev would have gone bankrupt (a lot earlier) with 20 year old Classics. Plus in 2001 Malev still had Tu-154s and B-737-200s in its books. It was quite clear that a fleet reneval was neccessary. OT finished here, sorry for the thread drift.
 
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holcakker
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Re: LOT news thread - 2018

Fri Apr 27, 2018 3:10 pm

 
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mke717spotter
Posts: 2078
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Re: LOT news thread - 2018

Mon Apr 30, 2018 1:20 am

BUD-ORD/JFK is starting in a few days. Any word on how early bookings are looking?
Will you watch the Cleveland Browns and the Detroit Lions on Sunday? Only if coach Eric Mangini resigned after a loss.
 
PixelPilot
Posts: 78
Joined: Tue Jan 16, 2018 1:19 am

Re: LOT news thread - 2018

Mon Apr 30, 2018 5:34 pm

holcakker wrote:


Cancelled.
Operations will remain normal.
Just read it in Polish news.
 
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holcakker
Posts: 98
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Re: LOT news thread - 2018

Mon Apr 30, 2018 6:52 pm

PixelPilot wrote:
holcakker wrote:


Cancelled.
Operations will remain normal.
Just read it in Polish news.

That's great (from the passengers' point of view). It seems the unions did not gave up the idea though.
http://www.pap.pl/en/news/news,1394752, ... nions.html
 
Bostrom
Posts: 529
Joined: Tue Feb 02, 2016 7:11 pm

Re: LOT news thread - 2018

Mon Apr 30, 2018 7:51 pm

Blerg wrote:
Most European airlines that tried to operate multiple hubs decided against it and went for a single one in stead. From what I know only Lufthansa manages to efficiently operate two hubs.


Three hubs seems to work good enough for SAS.
 
hoons90
Posts: 3436
Joined: Wed Aug 01, 2001 10:15 pm

Re: LOT news thread - 2018

Mon Apr 30, 2018 8:03 pm

Did LOT add a 6th weekly frequency to ICN? I see that there's a LO1097/1098 rotation that operated on Sunday, and another one scheduled for next Sunday.
The biggest mistake made by most human beings: Listening to only half, understanding just a quarter and telling double.
 
winter
Posts: 35
Joined: Fri Jul 18, 2014 1:01 am

Re: LOT news thread - 2018

Mon Apr 30, 2018 8:20 pm

hoons90 wrote:
Did LOT add a 6th weekly frequency to ICN? I see that there's a LO1097/1098 rotation that operated on Sunday, and another one scheduled for next Sunday.


It's a series of one-of flights. Not a permanent frequency increase.
 
CHI2DFW
Posts: 223
Joined: Wed May 31, 2017 1:44 am

Re: LOT news thread - 2018

Wed May 02, 2018 1:55 am

klm617 wrote:
Is there any imformation on when LOT might start WAW to Detroit ?


No time soon.
 
terefere
Posts: 1
Joined: Thu Jun 18, 2015 1:45 am

Re: LOT news thread - 2018

Mon May 07, 2018 12:16 am

winter wrote:
If LO's business strategy is as great as you say why is it that only the government is interested in this venture, why is no investor looking for these great returns?


That's not exactly correct. It is the government that is not looking to sell LOT. The previous government has been searching for a buyer and they have managed to attract Indigo Partners to invest in LOT (https://www.ch-aviation.com/portal/news ... h-airlines ). The deal was scrapped because of coming elections, with the privatization of LOT being a highly political issue. The new government has decided to postpone privatization indefinitely, although there have been some rumors of Air China being potentially interested. Either way, LOT has struggled to find an investor before it has went through internal reorganization and cost cutting, but not after. Rather, it was the government that no longer wanted to sell LOT.
 
filipair
Posts: 146
Joined: Fri May 14, 2010 3:28 am

Re: LOT news thread - 2018

Wed May 16, 2018 8:03 pm

So LOT has grown a lot on Transatlantic in the last 12 months. WAW-LAX and EWR started last spring. KRK-ORD launched last July. RZE-EWR started a few weeks ago. And of course BUD-ORD/JFK.

I made a data visualization of the traffic on LOT's USA flights using the most recent available data from BTS:

https://public.tableau.com/views/LOTUSARoutes2016-2017/Poland-USA

Check it out if you're interested and PM if there's anything else you'd want to see!

Cheers,
Filip
 
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hippogryphe
Posts: 37
Joined: Mon Nov 13, 2017 10:43 am

Re: LOT news thread - 2018

Thu May 17, 2018 11:47 am

filipair wrote:
So LOT has grown a lot on Transatlantic in the last 12 months. WAW-LAX and EWR started last spring. KRK-ORD launched last July. RZE-EWR started a few weeks ago. And of course BUD-ORD/JFK.

I made a data visualization of the traffic on LOT's USA flights using the most recent available data from BTS:

https://public.tableau.com/views/LOTUSARoutes2016-2017/Poland-USA

Check it out if you're interested and PM if there's anything else you'd want to see!

Cheers,
Filip


I flew WAW-EWR on LOT a decade ago (interestingly on the 767 that later did the belly landing). Was the route not operated for a time in the interval?
 
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BlueSky1976
Posts: 1782
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Re: LOT news thread - 2018

Thu May 17, 2018 12:41 pm

Apparently, there's a rumor of LO being in talks to finally bring back WAW-DEL from next year. We'll see...

Meanwhile, inaugural flight to SIN took place already.
Rule #1: Never trust your government. EVER.
Rule #2: In case of any doubt, see Rule #1.
Rule #3: If it's a boeing, I'm NOT going!
 
filipair
Posts: 146
Joined: Fri May 14, 2010 3:28 am

Re: LOT news thread - 2018

Thu May 17, 2018 11:26 pm

hippogryphe wrote:
filipair wrote:
So LOT has grown a lot on Transatlantic in the last 12 months. WAW-LAX and EWR started last spring. KRK-ORD launched last July. RZE-EWR started a few weeks ago. And of course BUD-ORD/JFK.

I made a data visualization of the traffic on LOT's USA flights using the most recent available data from BTS:

https://public.tableau.com/views/LOTUSARoutes2016-2017/Poland-USA

Check it out if you're interested and PM if there's anything else you'd want to see!

Cheers,
Filip


I flew WAW-EWR on LOT a decade ago (interestingly on the 767 that later did the belly landing). Was the route not operated for a time in the interval?


I know that WAW-EWR was suspended for a while (maybe 2013-2017?) and ops were concentrated at JFK in an effort to cut costs. That was unfortunate because the EWR flight serves a distinct and sizable Polish community in Newark, apart from other LOT's other connecting markets. I'm glad it's back. And I'm not entirely sure on the timeline of the suspension. Maybe someone else who has a better grasp of the exact dates can chime in.
 
Janecki
Posts: 3
Joined: Thu May 17, 2018 5:37 pm

Re: LOT news thread - 2018

Fri May 18, 2018 3:17 pm

BlueSky1976 wrote:
Apparently, there's a rumor of LO being in talks to finally bring back WAW-DEL from next year. We'll see...

Meanwhile, inaugural flight to SIN took place already.



Latest rumours claim the start date for this might be as early as October this year!
 
Blerg
Posts: 933
Joined: Tue Jan 09, 2018 11:42 am

Re: LOT news thread - 2018

Fri May 25, 2018 5:46 am

This winter season LO will increase BEG from 7 to 10 weekly.
 
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BlueSky1976
Posts: 1782
Joined: Tue Jul 20, 2004 9:18 am

Re: LOT news thread - 2018

Mon May 28, 2018 11:11 am

Janecki wrote:

Latest rumours claim the start date for this might be as early as October this year!


That won't happen. October could be the month they announce the route and begin selling tickets for it, though.
Rule #1: Never trust your government. EVER.
Rule #2: In case of any doubt, see Rule #1.
Rule #3: If it's a boeing, I'm NOT going!
 
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BlueSky1976
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Re: LOT news thread - 2018

Tue Jun 05, 2018 2:28 pm

Lot announced a deal with ALAFCO to lease 6 more 737-8s for a period of 9 years. All to be delivered in 2019. This brings total of "firm" 737 MAX orders from LO to 12 frames.
Rule #1: Never trust your government. EVER.
Rule #2: In case of any doubt, see Rule #1.
Rule #3: If it's a boeing, I'm NOT going!
 
Blerg
Posts: 933
Joined: Tue Jan 09, 2018 11:42 am

Re: LOT news thread - 2018

Tue Jun 05, 2018 2:59 pm

BlueSky1976 wrote:
Lot announced a deal with ALAFCO to lease 6 more 737-8s for a period of 9 years. All to be delivered in 2019. This brings total of "firm" 737 MAX orders from LO to 12 frames.


This is a considerable increase. Can WAW cope with such a large increase? I mean these B737-8 are arriving in addition to the E-195s that were leased.
 
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BlueSky1976
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Re: LOT news thread - 2018

Tue Jun 05, 2018 3:28 pm

These are going to replace the obsolete 737-400s and 737-800s wet leased from Blue Air, actually.
Rule #1: Never trust your government. EVER.
Rule #2: In case of any doubt, see Rule #1.
Rule #3: If it's a boeing, I'm NOT going!

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