HTCone
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Re: Hi Fly to add second hand A380s

Mon Aug 28, 2017 11:28 pm

7BOEING7 wrote:
HTCone wrote:


I think Cathay tried to get a common type rating for A330/40/50 but were told no. Regulators don't seem to like more than 2 types on a single rating.

I think Southwest also tried to get the 737 classic, NG and Max on a common rating and were told no too?

Afaik there's no issue flying the A318/19/20/21 on a common rating, likewise B736/7/8/9 NG, it's when classics, NEOs, NG's and MAXs all get jumbled that regulators get fussy

Probably harder to stay current on multiple types when flying long haul, especially for an ACMI operator.


FAA definitions for "common Type rating" and MFF (Mixed Fleet Flying) can be found below.

The B737 family (along with the A320 family) doesn't have a common type rating because all 737's have the same Type Certificate -- it has just been amended., The only listing on your license is B737 for everything from a -100 to -900 (Max's also I believe). Southwest tried to get MFF which was disapproved.

On the other hand the 747-400 although having the same Type Certificate (amended) as the 747-100 to -300 was deemed to require a new rating. On you license you will have B747 and/or B747-4. If you have a B747-4 endorsement you can fly the B747-8 after taking a differences course -- no new rating is required.

As for actual common type ratings you have the B757/767 and B777/787. If you have a 777 rating after completing the FAA requirements you will be given a 787 endorsement without going through the full 787 type rating course.


https://www.faa.gov/documentLibrary/med ... _Chg_1.pdf



Thank you very much. It seems I had MFF and common type rating jumbled together in my head. Apologies.

So A330/340 are common TRs, as are B757/B767 and B777/B787., whereas B736/7/8/9 and A318/19/20/21 are MFF? Am I on the right track?

Anyway main point being HiFly guys will have enough of a pain in the proverbial staying current on both A330/340 withoud adding the 380 into the mix, and thus probably will not get rated on all 3?
 
Siddar
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Re: Hi Fly to add second hand A380s

Tue Aug 29, 2017 2:01 am

Likely a purchase designed for a quick turn around sale. It breaks the ice on the second hand 380 market while keeping costs low by being only two planes. Then in year or three when there are more 380s available they can be resold to more permanent operator.
 
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7BOEING7
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Re: Hi Fly to add second hand A380s

Tue Aug 29, 2017 3:03 am

HTCone wrote:


Thank you very much. It seems I had MFF and common type rating jumbled together in my head. Apologies.

So A330/340 are common TRs, as are B757/B767 and B777/B787., whereas B736/7/8/9 and A318/19/20/21 are MFF? Am I on the right track?

Anyway main point being HiFly guys will have enough of a pain in the proverbial staying current on both A330/340 withoud adding the 380 into the mix, and thus probably will not get rated on all 3?


From the diagram above, the A330/A350 is a common type rating while everything else just indicates the training days required to get rated in another airplane that can then be flown MMF. CCQ is Crew Cross Qualification. The regulatory agency may or may not allow MMF of 33/340/380.
 
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Super80Fan
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Re: Hi Fly to add second hand A380s

Tue Aug 29, 2017 3:48 am

WIederling wrote:
MIflyer12 wrote:
They haven't demonstrated they can operate 380s on the mooted routes and make money. Any idiots can operate an airline and lose money - and many idiots do.


Cue a wide range of US airlines and their Chap.11 bankruptcies :-?


Here here! Airlines in the US get a free pass on everything, and still claim to be the victims.
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zeke
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Re: Hi Fly to add second hand A380s

Tue Aug 29, 2017 5:10 am

Speedbirdasia wrote:
The 330/350 are called common type ratings. But in reality the only real commonality between them is probably the handling. The same goes for the 777/787.


Under the skin the A330 is very different to the A350, however what is presented to the crew onboard (cockpit and cabin) has a similar look and feel. The initial memory items are the same, and the way ECAM behaves, the overhead panel, and EWD displays data is near identical. If you were to take the EFB from the A350 cockpit operating both the aircraft is very similar. In the future I would see the A320/A330 cockpits morphing towards the A350.

Revelation wrote:
So, what markets do you feel yield less than military charters and pilgrimage flights? Seems to be the long in the tooth aircraft end up in such markets, which means they don't command enough revenue to support factory new aircraft.


The yields on normal airline passenger flights in most of the world outside of the US are lower than military charters and and Hajj. Charter flights attract premium rates.When Hi Fly was doing the troop transfer flights in Australia they had an A340 based there all the time.

Revelation wrote:
Straight forward, but it's going to be expensive to staff up a pool of pilots and flight crew for doing ad-hoc work using these unique aircraft.


It is actually cheaper to do recurrent training on airline based aircraft than most business aircraft as there are a lot more airline type simulators about which have spare capacity (as long as you dont mind using back of the clock sessions), there are fewer business jet simulators so the simulators centers charge higher costs as the volume is less and also they have less competition. For example you can get a 737 simulator cheaper per hour than a B350.

HTCone wrote:
I think Cathay tried to get a common type rating for A330/40/50 but were told no. Regulators don't seem to like more than 2 types on a single rating.


That is incorrect. The A330 and A340 were never the same type rating it was MFF. CX asked for A330/A350 CTR and it was approved as it was already approved by EASA. MFF between the A340 and A330/A350 was possible, a number of people like myself were doing it. It was not done widespread as the A340 fleet was shrinking slower than and the A350 fleet was expanding. The limits we have put internally on the A350 in terms are crew are far more restrictive than what the regulator has approved. As we gain more experience on type our internal restrictions will expand towards the regulators.

7BOEING7 wrote:
As for actual common type ratings you have the B757/767 and B777/787. If you have a 777 rating after completing the FAA requirements you will be given a 787 endorsement without going through the full 787 type rating course.


That is not correct. The 757/767 is a common typre rating under FAA, however the 787, 777, A330, A350 are seperate type ratings under FAA (http://registry.faa.gov/TypeRatings/ ). Under EASA the 777/787 and A330/A350 are common type ratings.

HTCone wrote:
So A330/340 are common TRs, as are B757/B767 and B777/B787., whereas B736/7/8/9 and A318/19/20/21 are MFF? Am I on the right track?


Under FAA pilot certificate designations

757/767 common type rating
777 stand alone type rating
787 stand alone rating
A330 stand alone rating
A340 stand alone rating
A350 stand alone rating

http://registry.faa.gov/TypeRatings/

Some terms which might help in FAA terms
CCQ cross crew qualification where credits for flying one type go towards the training required to obtain a new type, like A330 to A340 or 777 to 787.
CTR - common type rating where aircraft that have different airworthiness certificate have the same pilot certificate rating 757/767
MFF - mixed fleet flying where aircraft with different pilot certificates are flown as one fleet, eg A330/A340, 787/777
SFF - single fleet flying where all aircraft are on the same type certificate -737-700/737-900, A320/A321

Under EASA rules.

757/767 common type rating
777/777 common type rating
A330/A350 common type rating
A340 stand alone rating

Some terms which might help in EASA terms
CCQ cross crew qualification where credits for flying one type go towards the training required to obtain a new type, like A330 to A340
CTR - common type rating where aircraft that have different airworthiness certificate have the same pilot certificate rating 757/767, 777/787, A330/A350
MFF - mixed fleet flying where aircraft with different pilot certificates are flown as one fleet, eg A330/A340
SFF - single fleet flying where all aircraft are on the same type certificate -737-700/737-900, A320/A321
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Speedbirdasia
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Re: Hi Fly to add second hand A380s

Tue Aug 29, 2017 5:47 am

zeke wrote:
Speedbirdasia wrote:
The 330/350 are called common type ratings. But in reality the only real commonality between them is probably the handling. The same goes for the 777/787.


Under the skin the A330 is very different to the A350, however what is presented to the crew onboard (cockpit and cabin) has a similar look and feel. The initial memory items are the same, and the way ECAM behaves, the overhead panel, and EWD displays data is near identical. If you were to take the EFB from the A350 cockpit operating both the aircraft is very similar. In the future I would see the A320/A330 cockpits morphing towards the A350.



As far as i know, no airline has a Class 3 EFB on their 330s, only Class 1.The ECAM, FCU got a makeover on the 350. FMGS and MCDU functionality on the 350 is more varied.

Now if Airbus thought of making cockpit layouts of new build 330s/330neo similar to the 350, it would make for a good compelling reason to do that MFF.

Does Cathay MFF the 330 and 350 ?
 
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SQ789
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Re: Hi Fly to add second hand A380s

Tue Aug 29, 2017 6:08 am

Where will it be base at? Lisbon don't have the A380 fitted to land there, so I suspect it will be either in MAD or BCN.
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zeke
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Re: Hi Fly to add second hand A380s

Tue Aug 29, 2017 6:31 am

Speedbirdasia wrote:
As far as i know, no airline has a Class 3 EFB on their 330s, only Class 1.The ECAM, FCU got a makeover on the 350. FMGS and MCDU functionality on the 350 is more varied.


Sounds like you are making things up. The EFB on the A350 is Class 2, it is just a laptop that is stowed next to the pilot that is connected as an external monitor to the outer screen, there are a number of Class 2 EFB providers for the A330. ECAM works the same way on the A350 as it does on other Airbus types. The MCDU look is a little different however we have a had a lot of differences in the MCDU over the years. the FCU changes are very minor, you could easily put that onto the A330.

Onboard navigation system (ie on ground airport maps, runway incursion warning etc), Auto TCAS, RNP(AR), Runway Overrun Prevention System are all available on the A330 now.

[quote="Speedbirdasia"Does Cathay MFF the 330 and 350 ?[/quote]

A330/A350 is a common type rating and we have pilots flying both, we used to MFF A330/A340. So to answer your question we do not MFF the A330 and A350 because it is a common type rating A330/A350.
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Geoff1947
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Re: Hi Fly to add second hand A380s

Tue Aug 29, 2017 6:58 am

SQ789 wrote:
Where will it be base at? Lisbon don't have the A380 fitted to land there, so I suspect it will be either in MAD or BCN.


The base will be determined by who the end customer is. This will be announced in October.

Geoff
 
Speedbirdasia
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Re: Hi Fly to add second hand A380s

Tue Aug 29, 2017 9:21 am

zeke wrote:
Speedbirdasia wrote:
As far as i know, no airline has a Class 3 EFB on their 330s, only Class 1.The ECAM, FCU got a makeover on the 350. FMGS and MCDU functionality on the 350 is more varied.


Sounds like you are making things up. The EFB on the A350 is Class 2, it is just a laptop that is stowed next to the pilot that is connected as an external monitor to the outer screen, there are a number of Class 2 EFB providers for the A330. ECAM works the same way on the A350 as it does on other Airbus types. The MCDU look is a little different however we have a had a lot of differences in the MCDU over the years. the FCU changes are very minor, you could easily put that onto the A330.

Onboard navigation system (ie on ground airport maps, runway incursion warning etc), Auto TCAS, RNP(AR), Runway Overrun Prevention System are all available on the A330 now.

[quote="Speedbirdasia"Does Cathay MFF the 330 and 350 ?


A330/A350 is a common type rating and we have pilots flying both, we used to MFF A330/A340. So to answer your question we do not MFF the A330 and A350 because it is a common type rating A330/A350.[/quote]



The A350 is capable of what Airbus terms a Class 2-Plus EFB, It is not a basic Class 2 as you make it up to be. :roll:

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... 50-330193/

EFB Class 2- Plus according to Airbus and i quote from the article : "Roy says that the A350's EFB will offer the flexibility of today's class 2 system - which some airlines prefer if they like to issue their pilots with their own laptops - with the integrated hardware solution of a class 3 configuration."

So Airbus purposely made the A350 with the option of removable pilot hardware. In essence a class 3 capability and that is the fact. The 380 which is an older design has a full Class 3 EFB.

The option of Auto TCAS, Runway Overrun Prevention System are all available on the A330 CEO BUT they remain options and not standard equipment like they are on the A350.

RNP(AR) is standard already on the A330 CEO.

MFF still relates to two different fleets being the A330 and the A350. Them being a common type rating for pilot licensing does not imply them being the same fleet. Hence the term MFF will still apply.
 
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zeke
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Re: Hi Fly to add second hand A380s

Tue Aug 29, 2017 10:36 am

Speedbirdasia wrote:
The A350 is capable of what Airbus terms a Class 2-Plus EFB, It is not a basic Class 2 as you make it up to be. :roll:


Class 2 means the power source and datalink to the aircraft are certified, and the stowage/mounting is certified, it is commercial off the shelf hardware. What makes the A350 class 2 plus is the laptop is stored in a container on the side and it uses a docking station solution so that the external keyboard in the table and the side screen are used to interface with the laptop. The outer screen and keyboard are part of the aircraft from an airworthiness point of view where the laptop is not. We can also use the keyboard and screen to use the spare laptop remotely. No different to using a docking station on your desk at home, the laptop is standard commercial off the shelf technology (standard thinkpad laptop running windows) which the airline can replace when it wants. A Class 3 EFB are fully integrated part of the aircraft and to modify them you got to go via the manufacturer,

Speedbirdasia wrote:
So Airbus purposely made the A350 with the option of removable pilot hardware. In essence a class 3 capability and that is the fact.


Not a fact at all, if you look under ATA 46 of the MMEL you will see that none of the EFB is needed at all. An airline can choose to operate the A350 with paper charts and manuals if they so desire.

Speedbirdasia wrote:
The option of Auto TCAS, Runway Overrun Prevention System are all available on the A330 CEO BUT they remain options and not standard equipment like they are on the A350.


I think auto TCAS and RNP(AR) are standard at this stage on the A330, we have been getting them like that for a while and deactivating those features on delivery. ROPS can be installed overnight if so desired.

Speedbirdasia wrote:
MFF still relates to two different fleets being the A330 and the A350. Them being a common type rating for pilot licensing does not imply them being the same fleet. Hence the term MFF will still apply.


Incorrect it is single fleet flying (SFF). MFF means you need to keep track of currency and proficiency on more than one type, single fleet flying means a landing on one type counts as a landing on the other. Same with the simulator checks.

This explains what SFF means in terms of the A330/A350 CTR

"12.1. Operation of A330 and A350 variants in Single Fleet Flying (SFF)
When introducing the A350 in an existing fleet of A330 for the purpose of flying both variants (A330 and A350) in a Single Fleet Flying concept, the following steps should be applied:
a) Pilot prerequisite: qualified and current on the A330;
b) CTR difference Training from A330 to A350;
Note: No Type Rating Check required as the A350 is declared as a variant of the A330 and assigned a common type rating.
c) Operational training modules if required (HUD, EFB, LVO, etc);
Note: No need of an Initial Operating Experience (LIFUS) on the A350 as the A350 is declared as a variant of the A330 and assigned a common type rating.
d) 2 sectors (1 as PF) of familiarization flights on A350 are to be conducted; and
e) Initial line check on the A350: NONE required.
Note: For operations of A330 and A350 variants in SFF concept, it is highly recommended that pilots are scheduled to fly both variants on a regular basis."

This explains what MFF means in the context of the A330/A350 CTR with the A320 or A340 (note the A380 is not mentioned as Brazil does not have them)

"12.2.1. Introducing A350 into an existing MFF operation
When introducing the A350 in existing Mixed Fleet of A330/A320 or A330/A340 for the purpose of both A330/350 type and A320 type or A340 type in a Mixed Fleet Flying concept, the following steps are to be applied
a) Pilot prerequisite: qualified and current on the A330;
b) CTR difference Training from A330 to A350;
Note: No Type Rating Check required as A350 is declared as a variant of the A330 and assigned a
Common Type Rating.
c) Operational training modules if required (HUD, EFB, LVO, etc);
Note: No Initial Operating Experience (LIFUS) on the A350 required as A350 is declared as a variant of the A330 and assigned a common type rating.
d) 2 sectors (1 as PF) of familiarization flights on A350 are to be conducted; and
e) Initial line check on the A350: NONE required.
Note: For operations of A330/350 type and A320 type or A340 type in a Mixed Fleet Flying concept, it is highly recommended that pilots are scheduled to fly both A330 and A350 variants on a regular basis."

If you want to go further look at that document around page 22 you can see how you need to stage your checks when MFF on the various types.

from http://www.anac.gov.br/assuntos/setor-r ... Report.pdf
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Revelation
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Re: Hi Fly to add second hand A380s

Tue Aug 29, 2017 10:55 am

zeke wrote:
The yields on normal airline passenger flights in most of the world outside of the US are lower than military charters and and Hajj. Charter flights attract premium rates.When Hi Fly was doing the troop transfer flights in Australia they had an A340 based there all the time.

Thanks for the informative replies on this topic and the others too.

It will be interesting to see if the yields remain high as HiFly and MH and perhaps others add A380s to this market, but we have the unfortunate example of HOU to see that needs for ad-hoc charters spring up all the time, and cruise ships are getting bigger all the time too. Hopefully the market remains strong enough to keep the operations healthy.
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Speedbirdasia
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Re: Hi Fly to add second hand A380s

Tue Aug 29, 2017 12:19 pm

Not a fact at all, if you look under ATA 46 of the MMEL you will see that none of the EFB is needed at all. An airline can choose to operate the A350 with paper charts and manuals if they so desire.


The MMEL /MEL you state about dispatchability for a class2/class2-plus/class3 EFB are the same. An INOP EFB regardless of its class is still a GO item. Your MMEL mention is irrelevant to the argument.

MFF means you need to keep track of currency and proficiency on more than one type


You mention SFF is the term used, yes it simplifies and streamlines the cross crew qualification process from the 330 to the 350 BUT you will still have to undergo a PPC/OPC in each variants of this common type rating alternatively each 6 months. So because of this record keeping it has an element of MFF.

In the end, the EASA and FAA issue independent type certificates for the 330 and the 350 and that is what matters. If you happen to fly on both airplane types you know they are different generation airplanes.

In Cathay, they choose to SFF the 330 and 350 . Other airlines keep their fleets separate. To each their own merits.
 
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zeke
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Re: Hi Fly to add second hand A380s

Tue Aug 29, 2017 3:58 pm

Speedbirdasia wrote:
The MMEL /MEL you state about dispatchability for a class2/class2-plus/class3 EFB are the same. An INOP EFB regardless of its class is still a GO item. Your MMEL mention is irrelevant to the argument.


Sorry this is getting tiresome, you don't know what you are talking about. A class 3 EFB is part of the aircraft, it is part of the TCDS. A class 2 EFB is common off the shelf device be it a windows tablet, iPad, or a laptop, the EFB is not part of the aircraft. How the class 2 device connects to the aircraft is part of the aircraft, on the A330 that is the electrical outlet located next to the pilot.

Speedbirdasia wrote:
You mention SFF is the term used, yes it simplifies and streamlines the cross crew qualification process from the 330 to the 350 BUT you will still have to undergo a PPC/OPC in each variants of this common type rating alternatively each 6 months. So because of this record keeping it has an element of MFF.


That is not true, refer to para 8.1, 8.2, and 9 (pg 21) of the document I attached to my previous post. Proficiency and line checks performed on any A330 or A350 series aircraft are valid for all variants. As for recency, the A350 is declared as a variant of the A330 and assigned a common type rating, a takeoff or landing performed on any A330 or A350 series aircraft is valid for all variants.

Speedbirdasia wrote:
In the end, the EASA and FAA issue independent type certificates for the 330 and the 350 and that is what matters. If you happen to fly on both airplane types you know they are different generation airplanes.


It has nothing to do with the generation of aircraft the 757/767 are two different type certificates yet they are also CTR/SFF.

Speedbirdasia wrote:
In Cathay, they choose to SFF the 330 and 350 .


CX is not the only airline doing A330/A350 SFF.
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7BOEING7
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Re: Hi Fly to add second hand A380s

Tue Aug 29, 2017 4:27 pm

zeke wrote:

7BOEING7 wrote:
As for actual common type ratings you have the B757/767 and B777/787. If you have a 777 rating after completing the FAA requirements you will be given a 787 endorsement without going through the full 787 type rating course.


That is not correct. The 757/767 is a common typre rating under FAA, however the 787, 777, A330, A350 are seperate type ratings under FAA (http://registry.faa.gov/TypeRatings/ ). Under EASA the 777/787 and A330/A350 are common type ratings.

Under FAA pilot certificate designations

757/767 common type rating
777 stand alone type rating
787 stand alone rating
A330 stand alone rating
A340 stand alone rating
A350 stand alone rating

I guess the following (FAA 777/787 CTR) is wrong, out of date or your definition of CTR is different than the FAA's. To be noted when this was issued you could only go from 777 to 787.

https://www.faa.gov/other_visit/aviatio ... O11016.pdf

Similarly the FAA A330/A350 CTR

http://fsims.faa.gov/PICDetail.aspx?doc ... %20Rev%200

You can't just look at the FAA registry and determine CTR.
 
Speedbirdasia
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Re: Hi Fly to add second hand A380s

Tue Aug 29, 2017 4:54 pm

Am equally convinced of the futility of exchanging with you ZEKE. Laying it to rest.
 
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sassiciai
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Re: Hi Fly to add second hand A380s

Tue Aug 29, 2017 5:05 pm

Speedbirdasia wrote:
Am equally convinced of the futility of exchanging with you ZEKE. Laying it to rest.

That's a rather pathetic post, and quite inaccurate to boot!

You could agree to disagree, and we might all appreciate that

The A380 generates so much passion, often overcoming common sense and logic!
 
silverfox
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Re: Hi Fly to add second hand A380s

Tue Aug 29, 2017 5:11 pm

Another forum claims that an A380 is going into Kemble tomorrow to be parted out....
Could it be this story gone wrong?
 
A388
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Re: Hi Fly to add second hand A380s

Tue Aug 29, 2017 5:28 pm

silverfox, the part out story is old news I think. Doing a google search I found an article which mentions that part out was considered as an option but that article was from July this year so I'm taking it that they have found an airline to buy these A380's instead of parting them out. In this case being Hi Fly as the taker of those A380's. Someone please correct me on this if necessary.


A388
 
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zeke
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Re: Hi Fly to add second hand A380s

Tue Aug 29, 2017 6:16 pm

7BOEING7 wrote:
I guess the following (FAA 777/787 CTR) is wrong, out of date or your definition of CTR is different than the FAA's. To be noted when this was issued you could only go from 777 to 787.


The documents are not wrong, we have been through this before at length in tech ops. viewtopic.php?f=5&t=775921 The FSB reports are to tell you how to train for one type to another. The type rating list is what gets placed on a pilots certificate.

BravoOne told you exactly how it was done at UA.

If you get a 767 type rating you get "B-757, B-767" on your FAA certificate with no actual differences course, cbt, FBT, or sim on the 757. Does not matter if you do the 757 or 767 type rating "B-757, B-767" is placed on your certificate.

If you have a 777 type rating, all you have on your pilot certificate is "B-777", upon completion of the 787 differences training syllabus as outlined in the FSB report, as amended by the airline, and approved by the FAA a pilot will received "B-777, B-787" on their certificate. The 787 only gets placed on the certificate if you have completed the differences training.

Unless things have changed recently if you do your initial rating on the 787, you receive a "B-787" on your certificate however there was no approved pathway to do a differences course to the 777. This is different to the 757/767 where it does not matter which one you start on you automatically get the second on your certificate without doing and differences course. Practically no airline is going to let you go from one to the other without some training, it would be negligent.
Human rights lawyers are "ambulance chasers of the very worst kind.'" - Sky News
 
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zeke
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Re: Hi Fly to add second hand A380s

Tue Aug 29, 2017 6:18 pm

A388 wrote:
silverfox, the part out story is old news I think. Doing a google search I found an article which mentions that part out was considered as an option but that article was from July this year so I'm taking it that they have found an airline to buy these A380's instead of parting them out. In this case being Hi Fly as the taker of those A380's. Someone please correct me on this if necessary.


A388


Both could be true, I thought SQ was returning 5 and HIFly is taking less than 5.
Human rights lawyers are "ambulance chasers of the very worst kind.'" - Sky News
 
Speedbirdasia
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Re: Hi Fly to add second hand A380s

Tue Aug 29, 2017 6:22 pm

sassiciai wrote:
Speedbirdasia wrote:
Am equally convinced of the futility of exchanging with you ZEKE. Laying it to rest.

That's a rather pathetic post, and quite inaccurate to boot!

You could agree to disagree, and we might all appreciate that

The A380 generates so much passion, often overcoming common sense and logic!



Your useless contribution is rather pathetic. Futility of exchange indeed, when the said contributor talks about Cathay and then posts an "Evaluation Report of the Brazilian ANAC".

It is worth highlighting that it is only an Evaluation and not a text of air law. Also, no airline in Brazil operates the 330 and the 350 together.

What would be more compelling is a text of law from the Hong Kong CAD detailing their requirements for SFF. The point remains even under SFF 330/350 pilots would need to undergo alternating Operator Proficiency checks on each type.
 
LXwing
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Re: Hi Fly to add second hand A380s

Tue Aug 29, 2017 6:31 pm

Geoff1947 wrote:
SQ789 wrote:
Where will it be base at? Lisbon don't have the A380 fitted to land there, so I suspect it will be either in MAD or BCN.


The base will be determined by who the end customer is. This will be announced in October.

Geoff


HiFly actually uses BJY/LPBJ as a base and for aircraft parking, not LIS/LPPT. The former is perfectly capable of having A380 operating there, while the latter will soon also be after completion of the undergoing taxiways reconstruction at LIS. MAD and BCN are definitely not an option.
But if the aircraft are indeed going to be operated exclusively for one end customer, then it's not even about HiFly's base anyway.
 
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KarelXWB
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Re: Hi Fly to add second hand A380s

Tue Aug 29, 2017 6:47 pm

Revelation wrote:
It will be interesting to see if the yields remain high as HiFly and MH and perhaps others add A380s to this market, but we have the unfortunate example of HOU to see that needs for ad-hoc charters spring up all the time, and cruise ships are getting bigger all the time too. Hopefully the market remains strong enough to keep the operations healthy.


Seems that MH won't take much of the market:

Malaysia Airlines A380 charter to target 6% of pilgrimage traffic
What we leave behind is not as important as how we've lived.
 
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Jayafe
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Re: Hi Fly to add second hand A380s

Tue Aug 29, 2017 6:50 pm

KarelXWB wrote:
Revelation wrote:
It will be interesting to see if the yields remain high as HiFly and MH and perhaps others add A380s to this market, but we have the unfortunate example of HOU to see that needs for ad-hoc charters spring up all the time, and cruise ships are getting bigger all the time too. Hopefully the market remains strong enough to keep the operations healthy.


Seems that MH won't take much of the market:

Malaysia Airlines A380 charter to target 6% of pilgrimage traffic


6% of the market with such fleet means the market is really massive. 6% of a lot can be really impressive figures...
 
airbazar
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Re: Hi Fly to add second hand A380s

Tue Aug 29, 2017 6:51 pm

LXwing wrote:
Geoff1947 wrote:
SQ789 wrote:
Where will it be base at? Lisbon don't have the A380 fitted to land there, so I suspect it will be either in MAD or BCN.


The base will be determined by who the end customer is. This will be announced in October.

Geoff


HiFly actually uses BJY/LPBJ as a base and for aircraft parking, not LIS/LPPT. The former is perfectly capable of having A380 operating there, while the latter will soon also be after completion of the undergoing taxiways reconstruction at LIS. MAD and BCN are definitely not an option.
But if the aircraft are indeed going to be operated exclusively for one end customer, then it's not even about HiFly's base anyway.


I'm not sure that there's enough clearance on the apron at Beja for an A380 to taxi thru there.
https://www.google.com/maps/@38.0663415 ... a=!3m1!1e3
 
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E2
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Re: Hi Fly to add second hand A380s

Tue Aug 29, 2017 7:15 pm

Speedbirdasia wrote:

Your useless contribution is rather pathetic. Futility of exchange indeed, when the said contributor talks about Cathay and then posts an "Evaluation Report of the Brazilian ANAC".

It is worth highlighting that it is only an Evaluation and not a text of air law. Also, no airline in Brazil operates the 330 and the 350 together.

What would be more compelling is a text of law from the Hong Kong CAD detailing their requirements for SFF. The point remains even under SFF 330/350 pilots would need to undergo alternating Operator Proficiency checks on each type.


The evaluation report that you so easily dismiss as "only an evaluation" will be incorporated into the relevant regulations, if it hasn't been already. ANAC is notoriously slow, but this report sets out exactly how the 330/350 pairing can be operated in Brazil. Whether anyone chooses to is irrelevant, but this report backs up what Zeke has been saying.

Also, TAM was planning to operate the 330 and 350 at the same time. Later it was decided to retire the 330 earlier and lease the new 350 to Qatar. Azul also had the 350 on order to supplement their 330s until last year, so the regulatory planning was being done even if the airlines subsequently changed their minds.
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Speedbirdasia
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Re: Hi Fly to add second hand A380s

Tue Aug 29, 2017 8:26 pm

E2 wrote:
Speedbirdasia wrote:



The evaluation report that you so easily dismiss as "only an evaluation" will be incorporated into the relevant regulations, if it hasn't been already. ANAC is notoriously slow, but this report sets out exactly how the 330/350 pairing can be operated in Brazil. Whether anyone chooses to is irrelevant, but this report backs up what Zeke has been saying.

Also, TAM was planning to operate the 330 and 350 at the same time. Later it was decided to retire the 330 earlier and lease the new 350 to Qatar. Azul also had the 350 on order to supplement their 330s until last year, so the regulatory planning was being done even if the airlines subsequently changed their minds.


If and when this evaluation report becomes a text of air regulations in Brazil, MFF/SFF will remain at the discretion operators.
 
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zeke
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Re: Hi Fly to add second hand A380s

Wed Aug 30, 2017 12:50 am

E2 wrote:
The evaluation report that you so easily dismiss as "only an evaluation" will be incorporated into the relevant regulations, if it hasn't been already. ANAC is notoriously slow, but this report sets out exactly how the 330/350 pairing can be operated in Brazil. Whether anyone chooses to is irrelevant, but this report backs up what Zeke has been saying.


The Brazilian evaluation report is based off the EASA one I just could not find the EASA one online.

This finnair presentation outlines their SFF plan.

https://www.halldale.com/files/halldale ... Vanska.pdf

Also the EASA TCDS says
"c. Pilot Type Rating: The licence endorsement for the A350-900 series aircraft is "A330/A350". The A350-900 and the A330 series aircraft are variants of the same type of aircraft."

That is exactly what I have on my licence.

The TCDS is the base certification document for the aircraft. https://www.easa.europa.eu/system/files ... sue-01.pdf
Human rights lawyers are "ambulance chasers of the very worst kind.'" - Sky News
 
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7BOEING7
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Re: Hi Fly to add second hand A380s

Wed Aug 30, 2017 1:34 am

zeke wrote:
7BOEING7 wrote:
I guess the following (FAA 777/787 CTR) is wrong, out of date or your definition of CTR is different than the FAA's. To be noted when this was issued you could only go from 777 to 787.


The documents are not wrong, we have been through this before at length in tech ops. viewtopic.php?f=5&t=775921 The FSB reports are to tell you how to train for one type to another. The type rating list is what gets placed on a pilots certificate.

BravoOne told you exactly how it was done at UA.

If you get a 767 type rating you get "B-757, B-767" on your FAA certificate with no actual differences course, cbt, FBT, or sim on the 757. Does not matter if you do the 757 or 767 type rating "B-757, B-767" is placed on your certificate.

If you have a 777 type rating, all you have on your pilot certificate is "B-777", upon completion of the 787 differences training syllabus as outlined in the FSB report, as amended by the airline, and approved by the FAA a pilot will received "B-777, B-787" on their certificate. The 787 only gets placed on the certificate if you have completed the differences training.

Unless things have changed recently if you do your initial rating on the 787, you receive a "B-787" on your certificate however there was no approved pathway to do a differences course to the 777. This is different to the 757/767 where it does not matter which one you start on you automatically get the second on your certificate without doing and differences course. Practically no airline is going to let you go from one to the other without some training, it would be negligent.


Per the FAA:

"Note: Common Type Rating. Common type rating is a term used in FSB reports to describe a relationship between type ratings for aircraft with different TC's that have no greater than level D training differences."

I don't see anywhere it says "no training differences".

Boeing and Airbus both publicize the capability -- so I guess you know more than Airbus, Boeing and the FAA.

By the way, I noted 787 to 777 was not yet available.
 
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zeke
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Re: Hi Fly to add second hand A380s

Wed Aug 30, 2017 3:08 am

Great, having a "B-787" type rating on your FAA certificate does not permit you to fly the 777 does it ?

You can only fly the 777 under the FAA if you have "B-777" on your certificate. There is no approved path from 787 to 777. So to gain the 777 type rating on the certificate a pilot requires ia full 777 type rating, not just differances training.

Whereas under EASA if you do either a 787 or 777 type rating you get 777/787 on your licence.
Human rights lawyers are "ambulance chasers of the very worst kind.'" - Sky News
 
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7BOEING7
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Re: Hi Fly to add second hand A380s

Wed Aug 30, 2017 4:42 am

zeke wrote:
Great, having a "B-787" type rating on your FAA certificate does not permit you to fly the 777 does it ?

You can only fly the 777 under the FAA if you have "B-777" on your certificate. There is no approved path from 787 to 777. So to gain the 777 type rating on the certificate a pilot requires ia full 777 type rating, not just differances training.

Whereas under EASA if you do either a 787 or 777 type rating you get 777/787 on your licence.


Right now it's only one-way as far as the FAA is concerned but that may change. It's still a common type rating. See page 6, 2.1 http://fsims.faa.gov/wdocs/fsb/b-787_fsb.pdf

Since I had a B777 endorsement on my certificate, I also received a B787 without going through a full type rating. So FAA wise those that have a 777 rating can receive a 787 rating via a common type rating process. When Boeing advertises that the 777 and 787 share a common type rating to sell airplanes, they're telling airlines with 777 pilots that they can turn them into 787 pilots without great expense not the other way around.
 
Speedbirdasia
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Re: Hi Fly to add second hand A380s

Wed Aug 30, 2017 6:00 am

zeke wrote:
E2 wrote:
The evaluation report that you so easily dismiss as "only an evaluation" will be incorporated into the relevant regulations, if it hasn't been already. ANAC is notoriously slow, but this report sets out exactly how the 330/350 pairing can be operated in Brazil. Whether anyone chooses to is irrelevant, but this report backs up what Zeke has been saying.


The Brazilian evaluation report is based off the EASA one I just could not find the EASA one online.

This finnair presentation outlines their SFF plan.

https://www.halldale.com/files/halldale ... Vanska.pdf

Also the EASA TCDS says
"c. Pilot Type Rating: The licence endorsement for the A350-900 series aircraft is "A330/A350". The A350-900 and the A330 series aircraft are variants of the same type of aircraft."

That is exactly what I have on my licence.

The TCDS is the base certification document for the aircraft. https://www.easa.europa.eu/system/files ... sue-01.pdf


If you look at the Finnair presentation and I remind you again this is applicable to how Finnair does SFF 330/340 not Cathay and not anybody else .

Pilots must perform a take off and landing in each variant every 45 days.

Pilots must undergo alternating OPC/PPC in each variant every six months.

This is what I have said alll along.

If you SFF 330/350 you should know that ! And if you have ever MFFed 330/340 at Cathay you would know that in practice and after training MFF and SFF record keeping for a line pilot are more or less the same .
 
LXwing
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Re: Hi Fly to add second hand A380s

Wed Aug 30, 2017 10:23 pm

Coming back to the topic discussion, unnamed sources from HiFly confirmed the discussions to lease 2 A380 for their future operations. It is also confirmed that it should be the first ones leaving the SQ fleet, and they are to start operations in 2018.
 
A388
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Re: Hi Fly to add second hand A380s

Wed Aug 30, 2017 10:46 pm

LXwing is the customer known who they will be flying these two A380's for?

A388
 
LXwing
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Re: Hi Fly to add second hand A380s

Wed Aug 30, 2017 11:04 pm

No final customer is known yet, but it doesn't sound like it will be an exclusive customer either. It could well be the usual occasional ACMI ops.
Source (in portuguese): https://newsavia.com/hi-fly-confirma-qu ... oximo-ano/
 
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LamboAston
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Re: Hi Fly to add second hand A380s

Thu Aug 31, 2017 4:38 am

It could be QF, with them adding more Asia flights next year
http://www.straitstimes.com/singapore/t ... n=addtoany
AS350, B733/4/7/8, B744/8, B762/3, B77E/L/W, B789, A319, A320, A321, A332, A346, A380, AT73/5/6, Q300, Q400, CR2/7, E190, S340, B1900C/D, E110 (E for epic)
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A388
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Re: Hi Fly to add second hand A380s

Thu Aug 31, 2017 12:05 pm

I doubt it will be QF because I don't see main line airlines leasing aircraft this way but of course I can be wrong. Also, wasn't QF thinking of getting rid of their A388's or that the aircraft might be too big?


A388
 
Newbiepilot
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Re: Hi Fly to add second hand A380s

Thu Aug 31, 2017 12:17 pm

This bickering about 787 and A350 type ratings has NOTHING to do with Hi Fly and A380s. The A380 is a new plane for Hi Fly and they will need all separate flight operations documents, training, and pilots. It will be a high cost for just two airplanes, especially when you add spares and maintenance unless they get in a joint venture with another A380 operator. The contract they are looking at to operate the planes for must be very lucrative to go through the cost of adding a whole new type.
 
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Polot
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Re: Hi Fly to add second hand A380s

Thu Aug 31, 2017 12:35 pm

LamboAston wrote:
It could be QF, with them adding more Asia flights next year
http://www.straitstimes.com/singapore/t ... n=addtoany

The A380 for those flights are the result of QF shifting around their current A380 flights as QF makes changes to their LHR flight routings when the 789 come online and start PER-LHR nonstop. They are not adding in more A380 capacity.

A388 wrote:
I doubt it will be QF because I don't see main line airlines leasing aircraft this way but of course I can be wrong. Also, wasn't QF thinking of getting rid of their A388's or that the aircraft might be too big?

They are not getting rid of their A380s anytime soon but QF has made it clear they are content with the current fleet size (12) and have no real desire to increase that number.
 
A388
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Re: Hi Fly to add second hand A380s

Thu Aug 31, 2017 2:10 pm

A388 wrote:
I doubt it will be QF because I don't see main line airlines leasing aircraft this way but of course I can be wrong. Also, wasn't QF thinking of getting rid of their A388's or that the aircraft might be too big?

They are not getting rid of their A380s anytime soon but QF has made it clear they are content with the current fleet size (12) and have no real desire to increase that number.[/quote]

Thanks Polot.

I'm still anxiously awaiting who Hi Fly will be flying these A380's for :D


A388
 
calt03
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Re: Hi Fly to add second hand A380s

Thu Aug 31, 2017 2:53 pm

 
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Jayafe
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Re: Hi Fly to add second hand A380s

Thu Aug 31, 2017 3:07 pm

calt03 wrote:
I place bets on charter customer being IAG group

http://www.routesonline.com/news/29/bre ... us-fleets/


:couple: :couple:

http://static.wixstatic.com/media/ed1d7 ... 9b~mv2.gif

Shame the old livery went away....
 
c933103
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Re: Hi Fly to add second hand A380s

Thu Aug 31, 2017 3:24 pm

TC957 wrote:
I think 560 is a sensible seat count rather than the 620 - 650 being talked about on here. For one thing, it's similar to Wamos & Corsair 744's should a HiFly 380 flight go badly tech and the pax have to be re-accommodated on those carriers. Turnaround times will be better, and less cabin crew needed. I can see the HiFly 380's doing all sorts of duties, bailing out airlines, doing emergency evacs, sports fans charters, military personnel movements, cruise ship charters and the rest. They'll be kept busy.
I also see sense in using MSN3 as a parts donor and HiFly operating MSN8 & 10. Hope the other two SQ are retiring find good homes too.

But, as a two class aircraft, that would mean even less dense than EK's two class A380. The EK two class configuration have 615 seats including half hundred flat bed business class on board.
 
mjoelnir
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Re: Hi Fly to add second hand A380s

Thu Aug 31, 2017 4:25 pm

Newbiepilot wrote:
This bickering about 787 and A350 type ratings has NOTHING to do with Hi Fly and A380s. The A380 is a new plane for Hi Fly and they will need all separate flight operations documents, training, and pilots. It will be a high cost for just two airplanes, especially when you add spares and maintenance unless they get in a joint venture with another A380 operator. The contract they are looking at to operate the planes for must be very lucrative to go through the cost of adding a whole new type.


But the point is that HiFly has A340 and it is rather simple for A340 pilots to add the A380. The bickering was about if it would be possible for HiFly to have a common pilot pool for A340, A380 and A330 or even the one A321.
 
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zeke
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Re: Hi Fly to add second hand A380s

Thu Aug 31, 2017 4:38 pm

mjoelnir wrote:
But the point is that HiFly has A340 and it is rather simple for A340 pilots to add the A380. The bickering was about if it would be possible for HiFly to have a common pilot pool for A340, A380 and A330 or even the one A321.


And the simple answer to that question is yes, EASA permits mixed fleet flying between the A340 and A380 and A320 and A380. They also permit cross crew qualification from the A320/A330A340 to A380.

https://www.easa.europa.eu/system/files ... 110718.pdf
Human rights lawyers are "ambulance chasers of the very worst kind.'" - Sky News
 
Newbiepilot
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Re: Hi Fly to add second hand A380s

Thu Aug 31, 2017 10:25 pm

Pilot training isn't the big deal with adding the A380. Maintenance, engineering, parts, airport handling, etc will all require big changes. The A380 parts alone I could imagine being a high cost barrier to operating just a couple A380s.
 
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zeke
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Re: Hi Fly to add second hand A380s

Fri Sep 01, 2017 4:31 am

Newbiepilot wrote:
Maintenance, engineering, parts, airport handling, etc will all require big changes. The A380 parts alone I could imagine being a high cost barrier to operating just a couple A380s.


I don't agree with that at all, 72hr, weekly checks are pretty straight forward, and larger checks can be done by many MROs. Parts manybe even easier for these aircraft if some of the batch are parted out.

Airport handling is not that different to other large aircraft, and would probably be contracted out.

Numerous airlines have operated other large aircraft on a AD-HOC basis.
Human rights lawyers are "ambulance chasers of the very worst kind.'" - Sky News
 
Newbiepilot
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Re: Hi Fly to add second hand A380s

Fri Sep 01, 2017 12:09 pm

zeke wrote:
Newbiepilot wrote:
Maintenance, engineering, parts, airport handling, etc will all require big changes. The A380 parts alone I could imagine being a high cost barrier to operating just a couple A380s.


I don't agree with that at all, 72hr, weekly checks are pretty straight forward, and larger checks can be done by many MROs. Parts manybe even easier for these aircraft if some of the batch are parted out.

Airport handling is not that different to other large aircraft, and would probably be contracted out.

Numerous airlines have operated other large aircraft on a AD-HOC basis.


So you think adding the A380 to a fleet for an airline with only a dozen planes is a simple or easy task? It's not.

To bring a new plane into the fleet, a lot of phase in activity are required. A maintenance program needs to be established and approved by EASA. A rotatable parts program is required for parts that have life limits or soft times. A program for wheels, brakes, tires is required. I wish Hi Fly good luck finding a brake overhaul vendor that doesn't charge three times the price for an A380 brake as an A330 brake or find a decent price for a landing gear exchange program with messier dowty nose gear, Goodrich main gear, Bridgestone tires, etc. Now that Goodrich is part of UTAS, UTAS pricing can be exorbitant especially for small airlines with limited negotiating power. An engine overhaul and maintenance program established. Mechanics need to go through a month long maintenance endorsement program. Flight operations needs to get an AFM, FCOM, DDG etc approved. They have to access an A380 flight training facility.

There's a lot of work to setting up a new fleet. The A330 and A321 fleets are established and there are third party MROS and even engineering consulting companies like Lufthansa Technik, Monarch or Cavok to help. It is easy to find an MRO to work on the A330. I doubt many if the engineering companies of those companies have worked in the A380 before outside of Lufthansa, so it will be much harder for an airline to setup the infrastructure necessary. If Lufthasa is the only one offering engineering services (I am not talking MRO to do A and C check work, but services like rotavle exchange, maintenance program setup, etc) for the A380, they likely will charge a premium. Airbus may offer assistance beyond what is typical for an airline operating used airplanes, but it is unlikely the support will be equivalent to an airline taking new deliveries.

None of this prohibits Hi Fly from operating A380s. It just adds a lot of cost. Hi Fly is a small airline with only a dozen planes. Their engineering and technical operations team is probably a few dozen people. It's a lot of work to add a new type, especially one that is relatively uncommon. I would be saying the same thing if a small airline tried to add the 747-8. THe A340 and A330 are similar and have a ton of used parts on the market. The A380 is not
 
A388
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Re: Hi Fly to add second hand A380s

Fri Sep 01, 2017 3:02 pm

Let's not forget that Hi Fly will keep flying these two A380's for at least 5-7 years and probably much longer. In that timeframe we will see the secondhand market for A380's over flooded by Emirates A380's. As others have said, I assume Hi Fly has done their homework on this and only time tell if they will manage to maintain these A380's. We just don't know what plans they have regarding the maintenance of these A380's. We just don't know this. They can send thrm to current A380 operators and not just Lufthansa, maybe an MRO company for A380's is being set up that we don't know about. These A380's probably will fly less compared to scheduled A380 operators so (major) maintenance overhauls will probably take more time to take place. All we can do is guessing and thinking whether this will be difficult to be done by Hi Fly so let's leave thst to them. They are the first airline to take second hand A380's and offer them for ACMI leases so only time will tell if they can make it work or not.

A388

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