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N14AZ
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Re: Hi Fly to add second hand A380s

Fri Sep 01, 2017 3:40 pm

Newbiepilot wrote:
The A340 and A330 are similar and have a ton of used parts on the market. The A380 is not

This is kind of funny. Before this announcement it seemed to be common understanding amongst many a.netters that there is no second-hand market and all these ex SQ and ex EK will be scrapped. Now you are claiming there will be not enough spare parts. As the poster above said. Besides these two airframes, many others will be phases out, at least three ex-SQs and maybe some ex-EKs.

I got your point and for sure you are correct but somehow small airlines like Wamos and others manage to operate B744s. Didn't Airbus claim that the operation cost of an A380 are very close to the operation cost of a B744? If yes then I guess the same applies for second hand A380s.
 
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JetBuddy
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Re: Hi Fly to add second hand A380s

Fri Sep 01, 2017 3:53 pm

There will be lots of used A380 parts on the market shortly. Like I've said before, I believe that early build A380s heading to the scrapper is a good thing for the whole A380 ecosystem and the viability of operating A380s - not only for the legacy carriers, but for ad-hoc/charter outfits like HiFly. I also believe that Airbus' interests are aligned with HiFly, and that they will provide all the help they can to make this type of operation go smoothly. I'm certain HiFly have done their careful calculations on everything from training and maintenance to the end user opportunities. And I'm quite certain they already have missions ligned up for their two A380s.
 
airbazar
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Re: Hi Fly to add second hand A380s

Fri Sep 01, 2017 3:58 pm

Newbiepilot wrote:
So you think adding the A380 to a fleet for an airline with only a dozen planes is a simple or easy task? It's not.

I don't think anyone is claiming that is easy but why should it be any difficult than "onboarding" any other airplane type?
There are countless airlines out there with tiny fleets, operating aircraft as large as 747's. Check out National Airlines, their fleet is even smaller than HiFly. I never heard any of the arguments you're making in regards to those other small airlines. Is it because they operate Boeing aircraft, perhaps?
 
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Revelation
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Re: Hi Fly to add second hand A380s

Fri Sep 01, 2017 4:34 pm

airbazar wrote:
I don't think anyone is claiming that is easy but why should it be any difficult than "onboarding" any other airplane type?
There are countless airlines out there with tiny fleets, operating aircraft as large as 747's. Check out National Airlines, their fleet is even smaller than HiFly. I never heard any of the arguments you're making in regards to those other small airlines. Is it because they operate Boeing aircraft, perhaps?

It should seem obvious, without resorting to suggestions of bias, that maintaining a used 747 will be cheaper than a used A380. The 747 support chain is huge and is decades old. It has access to large amounts of used and after-market parts. MROs are trained and licensed to do overhauls and have hangars big enough to support the type. There also is excess capacity relative to its peak since the 747 fleet is in decline. Those things are quite different for the A380.
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lightsaber
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Re: Hi Fly to add second hand A380s

Fri Sep 01, 2017 5:06 pm

I'll be curious how many A380s find there way to Hi Fly. :)

It will be a buyers market...

Revelation wrote:
airbazar wrote:
I don't think anyone is claiming that is easy but why should it be any difficult than "onboarding" any other airplane type?
There are countless airlines out there with tiny fleets, operating aircraft as large as 747's. Check out National Airlines, their fleet is even smaller than HiFly. I never heard any of the arguments you're making in regards to those other small airlines. Is it because they operate Boeing aircraft, perhaps?

It should seem obvious, without resorting to suggestions of bias, that maintaining a used 747 will be cheaper than a used A380. The 747 support chain is huge and is decades old. It has access to large amounts of used and after-market parts. MROs are trained and licensed to do overhauls and have hangars big enough to support the type. There also is excess capacity relative to its peak since the 747 fleet is in decline. Those things are quite different for the A380.

Yes, The 747 MRO chain is more mature. However, the A380 was designed to require far less maintenance than the 747. A 747 takes a lot of love an attention to keep flying.


A better comparison is the 777. There is a plane that requires less maintenance and has a very mature MRO network. We're not quite at peak 777, but MROs have capacity.

I see a niche for the A380.
Then again, I see a niche for used 777-200ERs.

This will keep things interesting.

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Newbiepilot
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Re: Hi Fly to add second hand A380s

Fri Sep 01, 2017 5:31 pm

airbazar wrote:
Newbiepilot wrote:
So you think adding the A380 to a fleet for an airline with only a dozen planes is a simple or easy task? It's not.

I don't think anyone is claiming that is easy but why should it be any difficult than "onboarding" any other airplane type?
There are countless airlines out there with tiny fleets, operating aircraft as large as 747's. Check out National Airlines, their fleet is even smaller than HiFly. I never heard any of the arguments you're making in regards to those other small airlines. Is it because they operate Boeing aircraft, perhaps?


I would say the same things about the 747-8. It is not Boeing or Airbus bias. The A380 is the biggest and quite possibly the most complex airplane with the most parts of any commercial plane currently flying. Those don't prohibit an airline like Hi Fly operating it, but does add significantly to expense.

The 747-400 is much more mature and was a larger fleet. The used market for freighter versions is still robust and many many smaller airlines operate them. I believe that is partially because of parts but also there are many more MROs and experienced, licensed engineers for that airplane. It is past its prime though and it is getting more expensive to operate and maintain especially as many parts become obsolete and out of production.
 
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Re: Hi Fly to add second hand A380s

Fri Sep 01, 2017 5:36 pm

N14AZ wrote:
Newbiepilot wrote:
The A340 and A330 are similar and have a ton of used parts on the market. The A380 is not

This is kind of funny. Before this announcement it seemed to be common understanding amongst many a.netters that there is no second-hand market and all these ex SQ and ex EK will be scrapped. Now you are claiming there will be not enough spare parts. As the poster above said. Besides these two airframes, many others will be phases out, at least three ex-SQs and maybe some ex-EKs.

I got your point and for sure you are correct but somehow small airlines like Wamos and others manage to operate B744s. Didn't Airbus claim that the operation cost of an A380 are very close to the operation cost of a B744? If yes then I guess the same applies for second hand A380s.


I never said there won't be enough spare parts. Read my entire post. I said they will be more expensive. A landing gear overhaul is going to be very expensive on an A380. I would not be surprised if it is triple the cost of an A330 landing gear. Similarly with fewer PMA options and brake/tire shops to work on them, I would expect significantly higher cost.

Competition is the great leveler in the industry for keeping parts manufacturers and MROs prices low. The smaller airlines and lessors absolutely love the A330 for this reason. The A330 is perfect because the early build airplanes had short lives putting many used spare parts on the market combined with a high production rate by Airbus who did quite a bit of dual sourcing in production. It's the perfect airplane for a small airline.

If Turkish, Cathay Pacific, ANA or JAL were the airline interested in used A380s, I would have a different opinion. Those airlines have large robust engineering staffs to support the induction of the A380 and have the money to maintain their own inventory of spare and rotable parts. They can also negotiate with a supplier like UTAS for the landing gear. Rather than paying 2 million per gear (my guess at UTAS costs) they can either negotiate with UTAS and get them to lower or go to a vendor like Ravima, HAECO, or Lufthansa Technik and get them to bid on the work. Ravima might not want to work with a small airline, but the big airlines can bundle the work with 30-50 other widebodies and say that unless you give fair prices and will work on the A380, the 777 or A330 work will go to another company.

The aviation industry suppliers, manufacturers and lessors give big airlines much more power to get lower pricing. Small airlines get either stuck with high costs when operating less common planes, or favor airplanes that are much more common and have a big enough supply chain and maintenance network that a small airline won't get suckered into high pricing.
Last edited by Newbiepilot on Fri Sep 01, 2017 5:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
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aemoreira1981
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Re: Hi Fly to add second hand A380s

Fri Sep 01, 2017 5:43 pm

In addition to hajj charters, is it possible for Hi Fly to replace the A340s used for the Australian Air Force with an A380, that could also be available for ad hoc use by other ASEAN airlines in the event that an airline's A380 goes tech? The planes could be based in Southeast Asia. The A330s and A340s could then be freed up.
 
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Re: Hi Fly to add second hand A380s

Fri Sep 01, 2017 6:27 pm

Much of the discussion in this thread is about the cost of operating the aircraft, and in particular, of maintaining then. There is much speculation on the relative maintenance cost for the A380 compared to the B777, the B747-400, the A330, ...... Much of those points are most likely valid

But in making those comments, posters are actually implying that Hi Fly will only discover these costs somewhere down the track. In that sense, such posts are predicated on the fact that Hi Fly has not done its homework, and will be hit by big and unexpected bills for maintenance

I have to assume the contrary, that the actors in the deal are not naive, and that the entire deal factors in maintenance costs. As stated above, it is quite likely that Airbus is providing a high degree of direct support in maintaining this small fleet. Maybe the previous operator (SIA) who knows the airframes intimately already is part of the deal, and that SIAEC might (continue to) look after these 2 frames
 
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Re: Hi Fly to add second hand A380s

Fri Sep 01, 2017 6:45 pm

It could even be something as straightforward as LH Technik signing a deal to do line maintenance and necessary overhauls. The Hi-Fly aircraft are also not necessarily going to end up on the CS- register. They could go onto 9H- with Hi-Fly Malta.

Really....is maintenance the only thing the usual suspects can throw up over this? There are plenty of MRO and line maintenance providers out there who can support the A380. Even the ME3 technical departments could do something when Hi-Fly rotate the planes through Hajj work. The spare parts pools are mature and well stocked, and Hi-Fly has a good standing with many major airlines thanks to their ACMI work for them in the past.
 
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Re: Hi Fly to add second hand A380s

Fri Sep 01, 2017 7:13 pm

sassiciai wrote:
Much of the discussion in this thread is about the cost of operating the aircraft, and in particular, of maintaining then. There is much speculation on the relative maintenance cost for the A380 compared to the B777, the B747-400, the A330, ...... Much of those points are most likely valid

But in making those comments, posters are actually implying that Hi Fly will only discover these costs somewhere down the track. In that sense, such posts are predicated on the fact that Hi Fly has not done its homework, and will be hit by big and unexpected bills for maintenance

I have to assume the contrary, that the actors in the deal are not naive, and that the entire deal factors in maintenance costs. As stated above, it is quite likely that Airbus is providing a high degree of direct support in maintaining this small fleet. Maybe the previous operator (SIA) who knows the airframes intimately already is part of the deal, and that SIAEC might (continue to) look after these 2 frames

Sensible words. And from Channex too.

Every current A380 owner and operator, as well as manufacturer and parts supplier, has a vested interest in the used market. As for other Airbus aircraft, there is already an active closed user group, sharing parts, information and training.

As long as these aircraft aren't used in direct competition with the previous operator, I'm sure they, and the leasor, will keenly support the new venture. For the current leasee, that will probably earn them a reduction in the final balloon payment on both aircraft, and possibly even a sweetener on the new leases.

Haven't some 748 and 788 suppliers triggered early contract termination, compelling Boeing to acquire machinery and intellectual property, with some machinery yet to find a new home?
 
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Re: Hi Fly to add second hand A380s

Fri Sep 01, 2017 8:08 pm

Revelation wrote:
airbazar wrote:
I don't think anyone is claiming that is easy but why should it be any difficult than "onboarding" any other airplane type?
There are countless airlines out there with tiny fleets, operating aircraft as large as 747's. Check out National Airlines, their fleet is even smaller than HiFly. I never heard any of the arguments you're making in regards to those other small airlines. Is it because they operate Boeing aircraft, perhaps?

It should seem obvious, without resorting to suggestions of bias, that maintaining a used 747 will be cheaper than a used A380. The 747 support chain is huge and is decades old. It has access to large amounts of used and after-market parts. MROs are trained and licensed to do overhauls and have hangars big enough to support the type. There also is excess capacity relative to its peak since the 747 fleet is in decline. Those things are quite different for the A380.

So how big was this infrastructure for the MD-11 which only sold 200 frames? And yet used MD-11's found their way onto small airlines, sometimes just a single frame.
Used aircraft finding new homes is nothing new. It's been done over and over again. The only reason people are raising a raucous about it is because this is the A380, IMO. I'm sure HiFly has done the math and knows it can pass the extra cost, on to its clients.
 
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Re: Hi Fly to add second hand A380s

Fri Sep 01, 2017 8:56 pm

sassiciai wrote:
I have to assume the contrary, that the actors in the deal are not naive, and that the entire deal factors in maintenance costs. As stated above, it is quite likely that Airbus is providing a high degree of direct support in maintaining this small fleet. Maybe the previous operator (SIA) who knows the airframes intimately already is part of the deal, and that SIAEC might (continue to) look after these 2 frames


Wherever the aircraft are being returned from should also be returning it in the state required in the lease documents, that normally would mean the aircraft be returned with ty heavy C3 check done.
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Chaostheory
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Re: Hi Fly to add second hand A380s

Fri Sep 01, 2017 10:28 pm

Planesmart wrote:
sassiciai wrote:
Much of the discussion in this thread is about the cost of operating the aircraft, and in particular, of maintaining then. There is much speculation on the relative maintenance cost for the A380 compared to the B777, the B747-400, the A330, ...... Much of those points are most likely valid

But in making those comments, posters are actually implying that Hi Fly will only discover these costs somewhere down the track. In that sense, such posts are predicated on the fact that Hi Fly has not done its homework, and will be hit by big and unexpected bills for maintenance

I have to assume the contrary, that the actors in the deal are not naive, and that the entire deal factors in maintenance costs. As stated above, it is quite likely that Airbus is providing a high degree of direct support in maintaining this small fleet. Maybe the previous operator (SIA) who knows the airframes intimately already is part of the deal, and that SIAEC might (continue to) look after these 2 frames

Sensible words. And from Channex too.

Every current A380 owner and operator, as well as manufacturer and parts supplier, has a vested interest in the used market. As for other Airbus aircraft, there is already an active closed user group, sharing parts, information and training.

As long as these aircraft aren't used in direct competition with the previous operator, I'm sure they, and the leasor, will keenly support the new venture. For the current leasee, that will probably earn them a reduction in the final balloon payment on both aircraft, and possibly even a sweetener on the new leases.

Haven't some 748 and 788 suppliers triggered early contract termination, compelling Boeing to acquire machinery and intellectual property, with some machinery yet to find a new home?


:checkmark:

Assuming these birds are former SIA, their engines will be EP2 at the minimum if not the latest EP3 standard. It's also worth mentioning that RR has been pricing engine maintenance for the T900 quite cheaply. Parked aircraft are not in the engine OEMs' interest as RR learnt recently with the 777. Lastly, Hifly has an excellent relationship with both Airbus and LH Technik with the latter maintaining their A340s. LH also operates a huge A380 spares inventory in partnership with Air France.
 
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aemoreira1981
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Re: Hi Fly to add second hand A380s

Sat Sep 02, 2017 3:45 am

airbazar wrote:
Revelation wrote:
airbazar wrote:
I don't think anyone is claiming that is easy but why should it be any difficult than "onboarding" any other airplane type?
There are countless airlines out there with tiny fleets, operating aircraft as large as 747's. Check out National Airlines, their fleet is even smaller than HiFly. I never heard any of the arguments you're making in regards to those other small airlines. Is it because they operate Boeing aircraft, perhaps?

It should seem obvious, without resorting to suggestions of bias, that maintaining a used 747 will be cheaper than a used A380. The 747 support chain is huge and is decades old. It has access to large amounts of used and after-market parts. MROs are trained and licensed to do overhauls and have hangars big enough to support the type. There also is excess capacity relative to its peak since the 747 fleet is in decline. Those things are quite different for the A380.

So how big was this infrastructure for the MD-11 which only sold 200 frames? And yet used MD-11's found their way onto small airlines, sometimes just a single frame.
Used aircraft finding new homes is nothing new. It's been done over and over again. The only reason people are raising a raucous about it is because this is the A380, IMO. I'm sure HiFly has done the math and knows it can pass the extra cost, on to its clients.


For the MD-11, what helps a lot is that UPS and FedEx were chasing down every possible frame as most airlines were retiring them, and that Lufthansa (Cargo) is a major operator and thus LH Technik can maintain MD-11s not operated by FedEx or UPS (the big 3 in terms of MD-11F operators). For FedEx, there is commonality with the DC-10 (it upgraded its DC-10 cockpits to the MD-11 cockpit). The MD-11 was the best cargo plane not a VLA until the B777F (the direct successor to the MD-11F) came around.

As for the A380, except for perhaps Lufthansa (who often flies aircraft to end-of-life but is parking its A346s), airlines and lessors want a used market for these planes and Hi Fly established that used market.
 
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zeke
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Re: Hi Fly to add second hand A380s

Sat Sep 02, 2017 4:29 am

Chaostheory wrote:
Lastly, Hifly has an excellent relationship with both Airbus and LH Technik with the latter maintaining their A340s. LH also operates a huge A380 spares inventory in partnership with Air France.


LH Technik is also the MRO who maintains the Qantas A330, 747, and A380s.
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Bluebird191
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Re: Hi Fly to add second hand A380s

Sat Sep 02, 2017 7:25 am

zeke wrote:
Chaostheory wrote:
Lastly, Hifly has an excellent relationship with both Airbus and LH Technik with the latter maintaining their A340s. LH also operates a huge A380 spares inventory in partnership with Air France.


LH Technik is also the MRO who maintains the Qantas A330, 747, and A380s.


Are you sure QF sends their A330 maintenance to Europe? QF does all their A330 maintenance at BNE - Qantas Engineering have two maintenance hangars there. Hangar 2 looks after their 737's, Hangar 3 looks after their A330's and other adhoc stuff, including the recently gained contract to refit some cabins for JQ. Hangar 3's main focus is QF's A330's, and it has spare capacity, so they have no need to offshore their A330's and send them overseas for any maintenance.
 
Gemuser
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Re: Hi Fly to add second hand A380s

Sat Sep 02, 2017 8:28 am

LH Technik in Manilla maintains, at least partly, the A380, B747 fleet, they have done work on A330 but from memory it was ad-hoc. AFAIK aircraft only go to Europe if Manilla can't do it for some reason.

Gemuser
 
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zeke
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Re: Hi Fly to add second hand A380s

Sat Sep 02, 2017 9:22 am

Bluebird191 wrote:
Are you sure QF sends their A330 maintenance to Europe? QF does all their A330 maintenance at BNE - Qantas Engineering have two maintenance hangars there.


No not in Europe, in MNL. Seen the A330s for repainting and new configuration. 737s are also maintained in SIN and CGK. A380s also in AUH, 747s also in HKG.

http://www.ltp.com.ph/Pages/News.aspx?cid=216
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Egerton
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Re: Hi Fly to add second hand A380s

Sat Sep 02, 2017 3:20 pm

calt03 wrote:


Hi calt03. I think you may have a good point with IAG, whose Mr Walsh has expressed the view that if the price was right etc.
Maybe Hi Fly will let IAG re-configure, maintain and fly their new A380 aeroplanes, but on a dry lease basis?
 
Egerton
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Re: Hi Fly to add second hand A380s

Sat Sep 02, 2017 5:00 pm

Egerton wrote:
calt03 wrote:


Hi calt03. I think you may have a good point with IAG, whose Mr Walsh has expressed the view that if the price was right etc.
Maybe Hi Fly will let IAG re-configure, maintain and fly their new A380 aeroplanes, but on a dry lease basis?


On second thoughts (meantime stung by a honey bee) this would fit. 2 A380 releases 3 777ERs for new IAG destinations or frequency in 2018. Further, if these initial pair of Hy Fly A380 were configured like the LGW tourist fleet, they would provide a useful addition to that product v Norwegian and others. They would live below the IAG Long Haul LHR premium product but above the IAG LEVEL el-cheapo product.
 
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Re: Hi Fly to add second hand A380s

Sat Sep 02, 2017 5:59 pm

Egerton wrote:
Egerton wrote:
calt03 wrote:


Hi calt03. I think you may have a good point with IAG, whose Mr Walsh has expressed the view that if the price was right etc.
Maybe Hi Fly will let IAG re-configure, maintain and fly their new A380 aeroplanes, but on a dry lease basis?


On second thoughts (meantime stung by a honey bee) this would fit. 2 A380 releases 3 777ERs for new IAG destinations or frequency in 2018. Further, if these initial pair of Hy Fly A380 were configured like the LGW tourist fleet, they would provide a useful addition to that product v Norwegian and others. They would live below the IAG Long Haul LHR premium product but above the IAG LEVEL el-cheapo product.


IAG != BA... IAG won't apply (or in the near future) more Boeing material to its Airbus brands. You can only release 777s by using those 2 A380 on BA, and those 777 won't be applied anywhere else (no crew certification, no maintenance, no procedures on airports). On the other hand, if you put A380s on a different IAG brand, you are not releasing 777s, as none fly them.

For further discussion about fans trying to push Boeings down the throat of Airbus only airlines, please visit:
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1372579
 
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Re: Hi Fly to add second hand A380s

Sat Sep 02, 2017 6:43 pm

Egerton wrote:
Hi calt03. I think you may have a good point with IAG, whose Mr Walsh has expressed the view that if the price was right etc.
Maybe Hi Fly will let IAG re-configure, maintain and fly their new A380 aeroplanes, but on a dry lease basis?


No way. HiFly does not dry lease aircraft to customers, they operate aircraft on behalf of their customers like any ACMI airline.
Besides, if IAG were interested in dry leasing some additional A380, why wouldn't they lease them directly from the lessor?
 
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Re: Hi Fly to add second hand A380s

Wed Sep 06, 2017 2:52 pm

Hi Fly may even increase the A380 fleet to 6 aircraft:

https://www.airinsight.com/hi-fly-talks-a380-plans/

Dr. Paulo Mirpuri, president and CEO of Hi Fly in Lisbon discusses his company’s bold step in acquiring two ex-Singapore Airlines A380s. These aircraft will be deployed as wet leases to Hi Fly clients.

He also explains how this move actually helps other airlines that are considering the A380 – Hi Fly is de-risking the decision. This is no doubt of considerable help to Airbus and A380 lessors looking at the future of the aircraft. Not only is Hi Fly confident in the A380 – they plan to add more and possibly see a fleet of six.
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olle
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Re: Hi Fly to add second hand A380s

Wed Sep 06, 2017 3:24 pm

How will this affects prices of A380s considering all old A380s was supposed to be scrapped?
 
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Jayafe
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Re: Hi Fly to add second hand A380s

Wed Sep 06, 2017 3:28 pm

olle wrote:
How will this affects prices of A380s considering all old A380s was supposed to be scrapped?


Who said that was a made decision, a.net apart?
 
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Re: Hi Fly to add second hand A380s

Wed Sep 06, 2017 3:38 pm

KarelXWB wrote:
Hi Fly may even increase the A380 fleet to 6 aircraft:

https://www.airinsight.com/hi-fly-talks-a380-plans/

Dr. Paulo Mirpuri, president and CEO of Hi Fly in Lisbon discusses his company’s bold step in acquiring two ex-Singapore Airlines A380s. These aircraft will be deployed as wet leases to Hi Fly clients.

He also explains how this move actually helps other airlines that are considering the A380 – Hi Fly is de-risking the decision. This is no doubt of considerable help to Airbus and A380 lessors looking at the future of the aircraft. Not only is Hi Fly confident in the A380 – they plan to add more and possibly see a fleet of six.


This development points to there being a market for used A380 and not only for two frames. There are other ACMI airlines. I still think of Air Atlanta Icelandic. They operate as it is 15 747-400 and 1 A340-300.
 
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JetBuddy
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Re: Hi Fly to add second hand A380s

Wed Sep 06, 2017 3:50 pm

KarelXWB wrote:
Hi Fly may even increase the A380 fleet to 6 aircraft:

https://www.airinsight.com/hi-fly-talks-a380-plans/

Dr. Paulo Mirpuri, president and CEO of Hi Fly in Lisbon discusses his company’s bold step in acquiring two ex-Singapore Airlines A380s. These aircraft will be deployed as wet leases to Hi Fly clients.

He also explains how this move actually helps other airlines that are considering the A380 – Hi Fly is de-risking the decision. This is no doubt of considerable help to Airbus and A380 lessors looking at the future of the aircraft. Not only is Hi Fly confident in the A380 – they plan to add more and possibly see a fleet of six.


That's great news. I hope they're successful and do increase the fleet to 6 aircraft. It's a win-win for Airbus, Hi Fly and the entire A380 "ecosystem" worldwide. Any airline can now decide to test the waters with a Hi Fly A380 before deciding to acquire the type themselves - new or used.

I'm very curious as to what price Hi Fly is paying for these frames.
 
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Slug71
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Re: Hi Fly to add second hand A380s

Wed Sep 06, 2017 3:52 pm

Hopefully they will take the ex-Skymark birds too.
 
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Re: Hi Fly to add second hand A380s

Wed Sep 06, 2017 3:58 pm

Slug71 wrote:
Hopefully they will take the ex-Skymark birds too.

EK is taking them (that is why they ordered 2 A380s in April 2016).
 
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Re: Hi Fly to add second hand A380s

Wed Sep 06, 2017 3:58 pm

Slug71 wrote:
Hopefully they will take the ex-Skymark birds too.


Those have been taken up by Emirates.
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Re: Hi Fly to add second hand A380s

Wed Sep 06, 2017 4:28 pm

Polot wrote:
Slug71 wrote:
Hopefully they will take the ex-Skymark birds too.

EK is taking them (that is why they ordered 2 A380s in April 2016).


KarelXWB wrote:
Slug71 wrote:
Hopefully they will take the ex-Skymark birds too.


Those have been taken up by Emirates.


Thank you. Somehow missed that.
 
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Re: Hi Fly to add second hand A380s

Wed Sep 06, 2017 7:28 pm

KarelXWB wrote:
Hi Fly may even increase the A380 fleet to 6 aircraft:

https://www.airinsight.com/hi-fly-talks-a380-plans/

Dr. Paulo Mirpuri, president and CEO of Hi Fly in Lisbon discusses his company’s bold step in acquiring two ex-Singapore Airlines A380s. These aircraft will be deployed as wet leases to Hi Fly clients.

He also explains how this move actually helps other airlines that are considering the A380 – Hi Fly is de-risking the decision. This is no doubt of considerable help to Airbus and A380 lessors looking at the future of the aircraft. Not only is Hi Fly confident in the A380 – they plan to add more and possibly see a fleet of six.


Dr. Paulo Mirpuri sounds like a big risk taker. Hope he pulls it off!
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Re: Hi Fly to add second hand A380s

Thu Sep 07, 2017 9:29 am

For people who do not want to listen the entire podcast with Dr. Paulo Mirpuri, here are the key notes:

-They started looking at the aircraft 2 years ago as customers were looking for larger aircraft and lower per seat costs.

-With Airbus, they evaluated the capability of Lisbon and Beja Airport to ensure they could bring the aircraft back to base. They also analysed factors such as pilot training, EFB packages and engine support

-The conclusion was it was technically and operationally possible to phase in the aircraft

-Given how long the A380 has been in service, aircraft have been ammortised by around a half and therefore are financially more viable with a more competitive cost

-Business case made sense, hence their decision to continue.

-Airlines see the A380 as a risky purchase since they have to fill the aircraft year round. HiFly believes their business model will help solve this issue as airlines can lease the aircraft for half a year during their particular peak season before HiFly can lease the aircraft to other airlines who have opposing peak seasons.

-The initial contract for the first aircraft will likely see HiFly place the aircraft for a full year with the second aircraft likely to be operated on a more seasonal basis and as a backup for the first aircraft.

-HiFly believes some operators may then move on to purchase or lease aircraft for themselves

-The aircraft will be reconfigured to seat at least 560 seats although they're currently seeing if they can get it up to 600.

-They estimate that on long/very long haul flights, the per seat saving for the aircraft will be around 20%. Problem as always for the aircraft is whether the customer can fill the seats although the markets where they're working with clients on are slot restricted routes with generally strong demand. Some are seasonal, and some may be able to support the aircraft year round.

-If the first 2 aircraft are successful, they can see the fleet growing to 4 or even 6 aircraft over the next 4-5 years, depending on how many aircraft are available in a financially acceptable conditio


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Re: Hi Fly to add second hand A380s

Thu Sep 07, 2017 10:10 am

mjoelnir wrote:
KarelXWB wrote:
Hi Fly may even increase the A380 fleet to 6 aircraft:

https://www.airinsight.com/hi-fly-talks-a380-plans/

Dr. Paulo Mirpuri, president and CEO of Hi Fly in Lisbon discusses his company’s bold step in acquiring two ex-Singapore Airlines A380s. These aircraft will be deployed as wet leases to Hi Fly clients.

He also explains how this move actually helps other airlines that are considering the A380 – Hi Fly is de-risking the decision. This is no doubt of considerable help to Airbus and A380 lessors looking at the future of the aircraft. Not only is Hi Fly confident in the A380 – they plan to add more and possibly see a fleet of six.


This development points to there being a market for used A380 and not only for two frames. There are other ACMI airlines. I still think of Air Atlanta Icelandic. They operate as it is 15 747-400 and 1 A340-300.


It all depends on what contracts Hi Fly can get. Half the Air Atlanta Icelandic 747s are freighters, which is unrelated to Hi Fly since the ACMI 747F market is very big. Air Atlanta Icelandic has a contract with Saudia for the 747-400 passenger planes. Perhaps Hi Fly can get a contract for Hajj charters and find beach markets is something else for the rest of the year,
 
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Re: Hi Fly to add second hand A380s

Thu Sep 07, 2017 10:33 am

Seems ideal solution for VS to lease one or two for the annual LGW/MAN - MCO school holiday travel peaks.
But of course interiors will need to match current VS branding.
 
Kikko19
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Re: Hi Fly to add second hand A380s

Thu Sep 07, 2017 10:58 am

will they be parked at LIS? I didn't see a lot of space left there last time I was there.
 
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Re: Hi Fly to add second hand A380s

Thu Sep 07, 2017 11:06 am

Most probably they will go to Beja.
 
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Re: Hi Fly to add second hand A380s

Thu Sep 07, 2017 11:09 am

Dr. Paulo Mirpuri, president and CEO of Hi Fly in Lisbon discusses his company’s bold step in acquiring two ex-Singapore Airlines A380s. These aircraft will be deployed as wet leases to Hi Fly clients.

Although there seems to be an attempt by some here to paint HiFly as amateurs who won't know how to operate the aircraft and will be struck by surprise maintenance costs, I believe that this deal has not been signed out of the blue, but that HiFly has already lined up customers for those two frames, likely already subcontracted an MRO for maint & spares, and knows very well where those A380's will be flying, even if it has not been made public yet. We shall see in due time.
 
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Re: Hi Fly to add second hand A380s

Thu Sep 07, 2017 2:00 pm

Newbiepilot wrote:
mjoelnir wrote:
KarelXWB wrote:
Hi Fly may even increase the A380 fleet to 6 aircraft:

https://www.airinsight.com/hi-fly-talks-a380-plans/



This development points to there being a market for used A380 and not only for two frames. There are other ACMI airlines. I still think of Air Atlanta Icelandic. They operate as it is 15 747-400 and 1 A340-300.


It all depends on what contracts Hi Fly can get. Half the Air Atlanta Icelandic 747s are freighters, which is unrelated to Hi Fly since the ACMI 747F market is very big. Air Atlanta Icelandic has a contract with Saudia for the 747-400 passenger planes. Perhaps Hi Fly can get a contract for Hajj charters and find beach markets is something else for the rest of the year,


So what? 7 747-400 and one A340-300 TF-EAB are passenger frames at Air Atlanta Icelandic. The same number of passenger frames Hi Fly is operating, but with a higher passenger capacity as a fleet. The contract with Saudia is wet lease, using own pilots, cabin crew and maintenance crew.
 
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Re: Hi Fly to add second hand A380s

Thu Sep 07, 2017 2:18 pm

r2rho wrote:
Dr. Paulo Mirpuri, president and CEO of Hi Fly in Lisbon discusses his company’s bold step in acquiring two ex-Singapore Airlines A380s. These aircraft will be deployed as wet leases to Hi Fly clients.

Although there seems to be an attempt by some here to paint HiFly as amateurs who won't know how to operate the aircraft and will be struck by surprise maintenance costs, I believe that this deal has not been signed out of the blue, but that HiFly has already lined up customers for those two frames, likely already subcontracted an MRO for maint & spares, and knows very well where those A380's will be flying, even if it has not been made public yet. We shall see in due time.


Hi Fly is a 10 year old airline that operates a dozen airplanes. They lost their contract with Saudia because they chose to have maintenance done for airplanes in full Saudia livery at Bedek in Israel. That's rather amateur. Hajj charters are a great potential market for A380 charter operations, but Hi Fly already destroyed their relationship with Saudia.

People paint Hi Fly as amateurs because they are compared to most airlines. If it was Atlas, Air Atlanta Icelandic, or TUI, who all are veterans in the ACMI charter market I would have a different opinion. This doesn't mean that they can't operate A380s, but it will be a challenge for the company. We'll see how well they rise to the challenge.
 
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Re: Hi Fly to add second hand A380s

Thu Sep 07, 2017 2:47 pm

Hifly can have 10 years as an Airline, but the management, the Mirpuri family have a lot more than 10 years in airline/aviation industry. They were the founders of Air Luxor.


Paulo Mirpuri has been a member of the senior management team since 2005, leading the airline from a one aircraft operation to one of the largest wet leasing companies in the world. He was born in Lisbon, Portugal. After graduating at the UNL University, in Lisbon in 1990, he dedicated the following 25 years working in the Aviation Industry, leading successful projects in the field of business aviation, airlines and industry wide support services such as Airport Management, Aircraft Handling, Aircraft Maintenance, Aircraft Trading and Inflight Catering, covering the full supply chain.

Relevant projects in his career include the highly successful NetJets Europe, where Paulo Mirpuri invested as a founder partner and took the role as President in its operating arm between 1996 and 2005, expanding the fleet from 3 to 120 business jets over the first ten years of operation.

In the field of Business Aviation Paulo Mirpuri also invested in building, operating and developing under his executive management several Business Aviation Centers and FBO’s in Paris Le Bourget (today Signature Flight Support), Macau in China (Macau Business Aviation Center), Cape Verde and all major airports in Portugal, the later under the brand of Safeport. He also invested in commercial aviation, leading the now defunct Air Luxor thru its growth phase, until it became in 2004 the largest private airline in Portugal. He stepped down from the Board and left the airline when it was sold in 2006.

Paulo Mirpuri was appointed CEO and Chairman of Hi Fly in 2005. He also became since then President of Safeport (Aircraft Handling), MESA (Aircraft Maintenance) and LSKY (Inflight Catering). Under his management, the Group of Companies has experienced a successful growth and profitability operating worldwide.

In addition, Paulo Mirpuri is Chairman at Mirpuri Foundation, a non-profit organisation he set up with the aim of sparking positive change in the world. Mirpuri Foundation supports specific projects within the fields of Aerospace, Medical Research, Marine Conservation, Wildlife Conservation and Social Responsibility.

Besides its extensive business management experience for almost three decades, Paulo Mirpuri is a medical doctor, an Airbus qualified airline pilot and a qualified Skipper. His favorite sports are sailing, golf, tennis and horse riding.


Carlos Mirpuri is Vice-President of Hi Fly since it was launched in 2005. A professional pilot since 1981, he has an extensive technical and managerial background. As an active airline pilot, he keeps all his ratings and credentials as Captain, instructor and examiner, maintaining close contact with the areas he closely oversees, as is the case of flight, ground and maintenance operations of the Group. Having started his career as a flight instructor, he then flew commuters before joining TAP Air Portugal in 1986, where he spent over 15 years. In 2001 he resigned from TAP to dedicate himself full time to his Aviation Group. He is also a consultant Airbus Training UK.

His pilot related work experience includes Hi Fly since 2005; Airbus Training UK – Consultant since 2006; Air Luxor – between 2001and 2006; TAP Air Portugal – between 1986 and 2001; LAR Trans-regional – between 1985 and 1986 and Airline Pilot Training Centre, US, FL – Flight Instructor, between 1982 and 1985.

Carlos Mirpuri has a Total Flight Time of around 16 000 flight hours, including over 10 500 Command hours in Airbus fly-by-wire aircraft.

Licenses and ratings of Carlos Mirpuri include EASA ATPL, TRI and TRE: A320 / A330-350 / A340, FAA ATP: A320 / B737.

Aircraft flown: A340, A330, A320, A310, L1011 Tristar, B727, B737, Cessna Citation, Rockwell Commander 500S/690B, Beechcraft King Air, DHC - 6 Twin Otter, multiple MEP and SEP. He is also qualified to perform A340 three engine ferry flights, and is factory qualified to perform Functional Check Flights in Airbus fly-by-wire aircraft.

Carlos Mirpuri management experience includes Vice-President of NetJets Europe between 1996 and 2005, Vice-President of several Business Aviation Centers and FBO’s in Paris, Macau, Cape Verde and Portugal main airports. In commercial aviation, Carlos Mirpuri was Vice-President of the now defunct Air Luxor thru its growth phase, until it became in 2004 the largest private airline in Portugal. He stepped down from the Board and left the airline when it was sold in 2006. Carlos Mirpuri was appointed Vice-President of Hi Fly in 2005. He is also the accountable manager of MESA, the Group Part-145 MRO.

With his extensive aviation experience for over three decades, Carlos Mirpuri has marked leadership qualities, acquired throughout his training, command and management activities. Today his group of companies employs over 500 aviation professionals. His other interests include sailing, swimming, motorsports, dogs and horses. A helicopter rating is next in his bucket list.

Personal Information taken from Hifly website.
 
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Re: Hi Fly to add second hand A380s

Thu Sep 07, 2017 3:22 pm

From the interview, it does sound like they have customers lined up for both frames. One year round lease, and one seasonal. I believe Hi Fly knows exactly what they're doing.
 
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Re: Hi Fly to add second hand A380s

Thu Sep 07, 2017 4:07 pm

Conventional wisdom often has it that Airbus and Boeing really sock it to small operations when it comes to maintenance and spare parts. It does seem in Airbus's interests to make this work. And a small fleet of 380s, large enough so that there always is a couple extra, could encourage other airlines to have a sub-fleet of two or three new 380s, knowing that they could get backup. They all would need to be somewhat alike in their seating.
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Re: Hi Fly to add second hand A380s

Thu Sep 07, 2017 5:11 pm

2x A380s, isn't that what IAG was looking at for Iberia and Aer Lingus to share between them? Could they be the customer? Aer Lingus already employs ASL to do the 757 flying for them, so there is a precedence for using contractors.
 
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Re: Hi Fly to add second hand A380s

Thu Sep 07, 2017 6:23 pm

KarelXWB wrote:
For people who do not want to listen the entire podcast with Dr. Paulo Mirpuri, here are the key notes:


Thanks for the recap.

Seems that HiFly will actually be doing with used frames, what Amedeo was trying to do with new frames.
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Re: Hi Fly to add second hand A380s

Thu Sep 07, 2017 7:49 pm

VSMUT wrote:
2x A380s, isn't that what IAG was looking at for Iberia and Aer Lingus to share between them? Could they be the customer? Aer Lingus already employs ASL to do the 757 flying for them, so there is a precedence for using contractors.

IMO, with the reported seating configuration there are a few airlines that could wet lease the aircraft for high seasonal demand. However I think the high premium cabin (~100 J seats), would be a problem for either EI or IB, both of which currently have small J cabins. I wouldn't be the slightest bit shocked if these aircraft were t end up with an airline that already operates the A380, to provide short term, seasonal capacity additions.
 
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Re: Hi Fly to add second hand A380s

Mon Oct 09, 2017 2:34 pm

Channex757 wrote:
It could even be something as straightforward as LH Technik signing a deal to do line maintenance and necessary overhauls. The Hi-Fly aircraft are also not necessarily going to end up on the CS- register. They could go onto 9H- with Hi-Fly Malta.

Really....is maintenance the only thing the usual suspects can throw up over this? There are plenty of MRO and line maintenance providers out there who can support the A380. Even the ME3 technical departments could do something when Hi-Fly rotate the planes through Hajj work. The spare parts pools are mature and well stocked, and Hi-Fly has a good standing with many major airlines thanks to their ACMI work for them in the past.


Not saying it will be done but there is a LH Technik in Malta as well and an A380 can land in MLA. Recently I heard rumors that Malta was trying to attract Easyjet so I am sure there would be benefits registering the planes under a Maltese register.

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Re: Hi Fly to add second hand A380s

Mon Oct 09, 2017 3:01 pm

Yes, I always thought there are tax advantages to registering aircraft in Malta because I couldn't think of any other reason to register an aircraft in Malta. With LH Teknik being there and the airport having the infrastructure for an A380 to land there, I think these Hi Fly will indeed be registered here.

Is it already known for who Hi Fly will use the A380?


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Re: Hi Fly to add second hand A380s

Mon Oct 09, 2017 4:52 pm

zeke wrote:
I think auto TCAS and RNP(AR) are standard at this stage on the A330, we have been getting them like that for a while and deactivating those features on delivery. ROPS can be installed overnight if so desired.


Can you tell more? I assume you are deactivating these features to make the planes more common with older planes. But would enabling these features really cause pilot or mechanic problems? What sort of problems?

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