User avatar
Polot
Posts: 8078
Joined: Thu Jul 28, 2011 3:01 pm

Re: Airbus stops accepting PW1100G engines

Wed Feb 14, 2018 3:33 pm

Revelation wrote:
william wrote:
So lets recap, Airbus at this time is not accepting GTF engines from P&W for a short time, and as a result some A320s and A321s presently being assembled are being towed to the far end of the airport, parked with no engines on them. Hence the term "gliders".

I would go with "undetermined" rather than "short". We have one quote with Pratt saying they're presenting a solution to the authorities this week, but we have no idea how long it will be to get that fix approved, get the needed parts into the field to fix the parked jets, get new-built engines to hang on the gliders, etc.

Plus with PW’s unfortunate track record, whether that fix will work long term or just introduce new problems.
 
lowbank
Posts: 377
Joined: Wed Mar 25, 2009 9:10 pm

Re: Airbus stops accepting PW1100G engines

Wed Feb 14, 2018 6:00 pm

Jouhou wrote:
lowbank wrote:
Oh my word.
Am I glad I don’t work for Pratt on that project.
The stress levels must be massive, as a fellow aerospace engineer, I really feel for those guys.

Doing another rushed redesign and manufacturing route is the most stressed job I have ever had. Even under that pressure it can take months.
I am working on a fast modification on one of our engines which is really stressful but with no build stop issues it’s a massive level below Pratt’s workers.


I work with a lot of former pratt employees, they aren't treated that well in general. Meanwhile, I have co-workers leaving to work for GE. If Pratts management fails to adequately shield their workers from this stress they will likely lose a lot of talent.



For anyone out there thinking of becoming an Aero space Engineer, the stats ain’t good.

In our team of 7 , 3 have had nervous breakdowns, It was 4 from 7 but my friend passed away from cancer 12 months ago. One of those number is me. I had a meitdown 10 years ago.
Every days a school day.
 
Aircellist
Posts: 1432
Joined: Fri Oct 08, 2004 8:43 am

Re: Airbus stops accepting PW1100G engines

Wed Feb 14, 2018 6:03 pm

"Dependable engines", yeah?
"When I find out I was wrong, I change my mind. What do you do?" -attributed to John Maynard Keynes
 
lowbank
Posts: 377
Joined: Wed Mar 25, 2009 9:10 pm

Re: Airbus stops accepting PW1100G engines

Wed Feb 14, 2018 6:05 pm

Polot wrote:
Revelation wrote:
william wrote:
So lets recap, Airbus at this time is not accepting GTF engines from P&W for a short time, and as a result some A320s and A321s presently being assembled are being towed to the far end of the airport, parked with no engines on them. Hence the term "gliders".

I would go with "undetermined" rather than "short". We have one quote with Pratt saying they're presenting a solution to the authorities this week, but we have no idea how long it will be to get that fix approved, get the needed parts into the field to fix the parked jets, get new-built engines to hang on the gliders, etc.

Plus with PW’s unfortunate track record, whether that fix will work long term or just introduce new problems.


That’s the problem, AOG’s mean you need to rush in a new modification. Despite all the checks and balances it can be easy to make a mistake under those pressures.
Every days a school day.
 
User avatar
par13del
Posts: 7756
Joined: Sun Dec 18, 2005 9:14 pm

Re: Airbus stops accepting PW1100G engines

Wed Feb 14, 2018 6:45 pm

Unfortunately, when Boeing was parking loads of 787 we had multiple pictures to view from many different angles, including overheads which spoiled us, just which the spotters in France etc. were as skilled with their camera's.
 
User avatar
Revelation
Posts: 17869
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 9:37 pm

Re: Airbus stops accepting PW1100G engines

Wed Feb 14, 2018 6:59 pm

lowbank wrote:
For anyone out there thinking of becoming an Aero space Engineer, the stats ain’t good.

In our team of 7 , 3 have had nervous breakdowns, It was 4 from 7 but my friend passed away from cancer 12 months ago. One of those number is me. I had a meitdown 10 years ago.

Yep, one of the unspoken realities about high tech careers is the level of stress you have to deal with.

Seems to get worse each year you are exposed to it, in my experience at least.

It's interesting to get co-workers in an unguarded moment talking about what meds they are on.

Unfortunately many don't realize that many of these meds can and do create problems long term.

At some point it's best to leave it to younger folk.
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
The heart has it's beaches, it's homeland and thoughts of it's own
Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
The heart has it's seasons, it's evenings and songs of it's own
 
User avatar
lightsaber
Moderator
Posts: 14112
Joined: Wed Jan 19, 2005 10:55 pm

Re: Airbus stops accepting PW1100G engines

Wed Feb 14, 2018 7:19 pm

lowbank wrote:
Jouhou wrote:
lowbank wrote:
Oh my word.
Am I glad I don’t work for Pratt on that project.
The stress levels must be massive, as a fellow aerospace engineer, I really feel for those guys.

Doing another rushed redesign and manufacturing route is the most stressed job I have ever had. Even under that pressure it can take months.
I am working on a fast modification on one of our engines which is really stressful but with no build stop issues it’s a massive level below Pratt’s workers.


I work with a lot of former pratt employees, they aren't treated that well in general. Meanwhile, I have co-workers leaving to work for GE. If Pratts management fails to adequately shield their workers from this stress they will likely lose a lot of talent.



For anyone out there thinking of becoming an Aero space Engineer, the stats ain’t good.

In our team of 7 , 3 have had nervous breakdowns, It was 4 from 7 but my friend passed away from cancer 12 months ago. One of those number is me. I had a meitdown 10 years ago.

I too am glad I'm not working this. I just left a project because the executive management was making it far to stressful. I've known far too many aerospace engineering who have had heart attacks (including my dad) or strokes. I tracked myself into a lower track after watching a dear friend have a stroke and lose 7 years of memory. We had been friends 5 years, lunch 3+ times a week, long mutual work hours, and he didn't remember me...

Then they wonder why people smile so much when the 60 day notice (required for retirement bonus) is given.

I'm sad as a Pratt fan. I worked forever ago on the GTF. So I personally feel some of what was engineered was ignored.

Before I break an NDA, I'll quiet down.

Lightsaber
You only have the first amendment with the 2nd. If you're not going to offend someone with what you say, you don't have the 1st.
 
RickNRoll
Posts: 1389
Joined: Fri Jan 06, 2012 9:30 am

Re: Airbus stops accepting PW1100G engines

Wed Feb 14, 2018 7:46 pm

KarelXWB wrote:
AirLawyer wrote:
There is a problem with all PW1100G engines or with just specific ones?

(“The problem involves the knife-edge seal in the high-pressure compressor aft hub and can potentially appear on engines starting with serial number P770450. 33 aircraft, according to Airbus and the European Aviation Safety Agency”)?


Not all PW1100G engines, just a batch of 43 engines staring with serial number P770450.

Note that P&W delivered 374 GTF engines in 2017.

Since they are not accepting deliveries would that batch be the last batch.
 
User avatar
william
Posts: 2718
Joined: Thu Jun 10, 1999 1:31 pm

Re: Airbus stops accepting PW1100G engines

Wed Feb 14, 2018 7:51 pm

lightsaber wrote:
lowbank wrote:
Jouhou wrote:

I work with a lot of former pratt employees, they aren't treated that well in general. Meanwhile, I have co-workers leaving to work for GE. If Pratts management fails to adequately shield their workers from this stress they will likely lose a lot of talent.



For anyone out there thinking of becoming an Aero space Engineer, the stats ain’t good.

In our team of 7 , 3 have had nervous breakdowns, It was 4 from 7 but my friend passed away from cancer 12 months ago. One of those number is me. I had a meitdown 10 years ago.

I too am glad I'm not working this. I just left a project because the executive management was making it far to stressful. I've known far too many aerospace engineering who have had heart attacks (including my dad) or strokes. I tracked myself into a lower track after watching a dear friend have a stroke and lose 7 years of memory. We had been friends 5 years, lunch 3+ times a week, long mutual work hours, and he didn't remember me...

Then they wonder why people smile so much when the 60 day notice (required for retirement bonus) is given.

I'm sad as a Pratt fan. I worked forever ago on the GTF. So I personally feel some of what was engineered was ignored.

Before I break an NDA, I'll quiet down.

Lightsaber


Were you working on it back in the 7J7 concept days?
 
User avatar
TheRedBaron
Posts: 3218
Joined: Tue Mar 29, 2005 6:17 am

Re: Airbus stops accepting PW1100G engines

Wed Feb 14, 2018 8:03 pm

lightsaber wrote:
I too am glad I'm not working this. I just left a project because the executive management was making it far to stressful. I've known far too many aerospace engineering who have had heart attacks (including my dad) or strokes. I tracked myself into a lower track after watching a dear friend have a stroke and lose 7 years of memory. We had been friends 5 years, lunch 3+ times a week, long mutual work hours, and he didn't remember me...

Then they wonder why people smile so much when the 60 day notice (required for retirement bonus) is given.

I'm sad as a Pratt fan. I worked forever ago on the GTF. So I personally feel some of what was engineered was ignored.

Before I break an NDA, I'll quiet down.

Lightsaber


I am sorry for your loss, its a high reward job coupled with a a high risk and health attrition rate. I used to be on that track years ago, and reading Dilbert Comics, made me see I was jumping out of the window for stupid reasons... I really hope PW gets its bearings (pun intended) ASAP.

I wonder how many gliders will be parked at Tolouse...

Best Regards
TRB
The best seat in a Plane is the Jumpseat.
 
Bricktop
Posts: 704
Joined: Fri Jan 22, 2016 11:04 am

Re: Airbus stops accepting PW1100G engines

Wed Feb 14, 2018 8:23 pm

lowbank wrote:
Jouhou wrote:
lowbank wrote:
Oh my word.
Am I glad I don’t work for Pratt on that project.
The stress levels must be massive, as a fellow aerospace engineer, I really feel for those guys.

Doing another rushed redesign and manufacturing route is the most stressed job I have ever had. Even under that pressure it can take months.
I am working on a fast modification on one of our engines which is really stressful but with no build stop issues it’s a massive level below Pratt’s workers.


I work with a lot of former pratt employees, they aren't treated that well in general. Meanwhile, I have co-workers leaving to work for GE. If Pratts management fails to adequately shield their workers from this stress they will likely lose a lot of talent.



For anyone out there thinking of becoming an Aero space Engineer, the stats ain’t good.

In our team of 7 , 3 have had nervous breakdowns, It was 4 from 7 but my friend passed away from cancer 12 months ago. One of those number is me. I had a meitdown 10 years ago.

That's awful. When doing the fingerpoint and "Ha Ha!" at these companies having problems, we should remember there are human beings whose health and lives are being devastated at the same time. I confess my own guilt and shame at times. I hope all is a bit easier now, lowbank.
 
User avatar
neutrino
Posts: 1302
Joined: Thu May 10, 2012 5:33 pm

Re: Airbus stops accepting PW1100G engines

Thu Feb 15, 2018 11:50 am

Revelation wrote:
hayzel777 wrote:
It’s Akbar Al Baker...not Ali Al-Baker

Thanks for the correction.

I guess I let the enthusiasm about him actually being right overwhelm me!

And I thought that was intentional, a reference to Comical Ali.
Image
Potestatem obscuri lateris nescitis
 
User avatar
Revelation
Posts: 17869
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 9:37 pm

Re: Airbus stops accepting PW1100G engines

Thu Feb 15, 2018 12:45 pm

neutrino wrote:
Revelation wrote:
hayzel777 wrote:
It’s Akbar Al Baker...not Ali Al-Baker

Thanks for the correction.

I guess I let the enthusiasm about him actually being right overwhelm me!

And I thought that was intentional, a reference to Comical Ali.

Hmm, maybe a Freudian slip?
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
The heart has it's beaches, it's homeland and thoughts of it's own
Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
The heart has it's seasons, it's evenings and songs of it's own
 
Newbiepilot
Posts: 2726
Joined: Tue Aug 30, 2016 10:18 pm

Re: Airbus stops accepting PW1100G engines

Thu Feb 15, 2018 2:17 pm

Bad news, the fix may take 6 months or more before production can resume

- Hong Kong Express Airways Ltd expects at least a six-month delay in deliveries of new Airbus SE AIR.SE A320neo jets due to issues with engines made by Pratt & Whitney, according to an internal memo issued by the airline.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-hk-e ... SKCN1FZ0NQ
 
User avatar
ikolkyo
Posts: 1986
Joined: Tue Nov 05, 2013 8:43 pm

Re: Airbus stops accepting PW1100G engines

Thu Feb 15, 2018 2:22 pm

Newbiepilot wrote:
Bad news, the fix may take 6 months or more before production can resume

- Hong Kong Express Airways Ltd expects at least a six-month delay in deliveries of new Airbus SE AIR.SE A320neo jets due to issues with engines made by Pratt & Whitney, according to an internal memo issued by the airline.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-hk-e ... SKCN1FZ0NQ


Here we go again...
 
User avatar
william
Posts: 2718
Joined: Thu Jun 10, 1999 1:31 pm

Re: Airbus stops accepting PW1100G engines

Thu Feb 15, 2018 2:25 pm

Newbiepilot wrote:
Bad news, the fix may take 6 months or more before production can resume

- Hong Kong Express Airways Ltd expects at least a six-month delay in deliveries of new Airbus SE AIR.SE A320neo jets due to issues with engines made by Pratt & Whitney, according to an internal memo issued by the airline.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-hk-e ... SKCN1FZ0NQ


Oh Snap!

That's alot of gliders being made over six months.
 
estorilm
Posts: 258
Joined: Fri Jan 16, 2009 3:07 am

Re: Airbus stops accepting PW1100G engines

Thu Feb 15, 2018 2:55 pm

william wrote:
Newbiepilot wrote:
Bad news, the fix may take 6 months or more before production can resume

- Hong Kong Express Airways Ltd expects at least a six-month delay in deliveries of new Airbus SE AIR.SE A320neo jets due to issues with engines made by Pratt & Whitney, according to an internal memo issued by the airline.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-hk-e ... SKCN1FZ0NQ


Oh Snap!

That's alot of gliders being made over six months.

They're going to run out of space - how fast are they making these things again??
 
Aircellist
Posts: 1432
Joined: Fri Oct 08, 2004 8:43 am

Re: Airbus stops accepting PW1100G engines

Thu Feb 15, 2018 3:48 pm

Lightsaber, I am sorry too for your dad and your lost friend. Thoughts for those who will have to put on a lot of pressure and long hours because somebody somewhere decided to cut a few corners.
"When I find out I was wrong, I change my mind. What do you do?" -attributed to John Maynard Keynes
 
Ronaldo747
Posts: 303
Joined: Sat Feb 14, 2009 4:58 pm

Re: Airbus stops accepting PW1100G engines

Thu Feb 15, 2018 3:58 pm

Aircellist wrote:
Lightsaber, I am sorry too for your dad and your lost friend. Thoughts for those who will have to put on a lot of pressure and long hours because somebody somewhere decided to cut a few corners.


+1

Hope that Pratt can it sort out. I still think the GTF is a great concept and a great engine.
 
Egerton
Posts: 841
Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2015 9:50 am

Re: Airbus stops accepting PW1100G engines

Thu Feb 15, 2018 4:20 pm

Having listened to the Airbus meeting this morning, it was said that on a first look, good P&W engines are expected in April.
 
User avatar
hOMSaR
Posts: 1875
Joined: Tue Jan 19, 2010 4:47 am

Re: Airbus stops accepting PW1100G engines

Thu Feb 15, 2018 4:45 pm

Egerton wrote:
Having listened to the Airbus meeting this morning, it was said that on a first look, good P&W engines are expected in April.


Did they mention which year?
The plural of Airbus is Airbuses. Airbii is not a word.
There is no 787-800, nor 787-900 or 747-800. It's 787-8, 787-9, and 747-8.
A321neoLR is also unnecessary. It's simply A321LR.
Airplanes don't have isles, they have aisles.
 
User avatar
KarelXWB
Moderator
Topic Author
Posts: 26969
Joined: Sun Jul 15, 2012 6:13 pm

Re: Airbus stops accepting PW1100G engines

Thu Feb 15, 2018 5:26 pm

Newbiepilot wrote:
Bad news, the fix may take 6 months or more before production can resume

- Hong Kong Express Airways Ltd expects at least a six-month delay in deliveries of new Airbus SE AIR.SE A320neo jets due to issues with engines made by Pratt & Whitney, according to an internal memo issued by the airline.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-hk-e ... SKCN1FZ0NQ


I imagine several airlines will take into account a worst possible delay, without really knowing how long it will take.

This week a fix is being proposed by P&W and Airbus today mentioned deliveries should resume in April.

estorilm wrote:
They're going to run out of space - how fast are they making these things again??


About 10 aircraft per month.

While a large inventory it not favorable to have as it is costly, the situation is manageable.
What we leave behind is not as important as how we've lived.
 
Newbiepilot
Posts: 2726
Joined: Tue Aug 30, 2016 10:18 pm

Re: Airbus stops accepting PW1100G engines

Thu Feb 15, 2018 6:39 pm

KarelXWB wrote:
Newbiepilot wrote:
Bad news, the fix may take 6 months or more before production can resume

- Hong Kong Express Airways Ltd expects at least a six-month delay in deliveries of new Airbus SE AIR.SE A320neo jets due to issues with engines made by Pratt & Whitney, according to an internal memo issued by the airline.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-hk-e ... SKCN1FZ0NQ


I imagine several airlines will take into account a worst possible delay, without really knowing how long it will take.

This week a fix is being proposed by P&W and Airbus today mentioned deliveries should resume in April.

estorilm wrote:
They're going to run out of space - how fast are they making these things again??


About 10 aircraft per month.

While a large inventory it not favorable to have as it is costly, the situation is manageable.


Will the good engines be going to Airbus to support deliveries or be sent to airlines to replacr engines on their grounded planes? The article i posted said priority is for airlines already delivered, so that may be causing the 6 month delivery delay. Airbus also stopped test flights
 
fsabo
Posts: 156
Joined: Fri Dec 04, 2015 8:41 pm

Re: Airbus stops accepting PW1100G engines

Thu Feb 15, 2018 6:44 pm

Newbiepilot wrote:
KarelXWB wrote:
Newbiepilot wrote:
Bad news, the fix may take 6 months or more before production can resume

- Hong Kong Express Airways Ltd expects at least a six-month delay in deliveries of new Airbus SE AIR.SE A320neo jets due to issues with engines made by Pratt & Whitney, according to an internal memo issued by the airline.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-hk-e ... SKCN1FZ0NQ


I imagine several airlines will take into account a worst possible delay, without really knowing how long it will take.

This week a fix is being proposed by P&W and Airbus today mentioned deliveries should resume in April.

estorilm wrote:
They're going to run out of space - how fast are they making these things again??


About 10 aircraft per month.

While a large inventory it not favorable to have as it is costly, the situation is manageable.


Will the good engines be going to Airbus to support deliveries or be sent to airlines to replacr engines on their grounded planes? The article i posted said priority is for airlines already delivered, so that may be causing the 6 month delivery delay. Airbus also stopped test flights


The problem is due to a design change intended to improve the durability of the knife edge seal. In theory they could go back to the old design while they take their time improving the knife edge seal. It seems the new design was not tested enough before being deployed.
 
lowbank
Posts: 377
Joined: Wed Mar 25, 2009 9:10 pm

Re: Airbus stops accepting PW1100G engines

Thu Feb 15, 2018 6:48 pm

A fix in April, that’s a gut feel, finger in the wind promise their Engineers cannot keep.

It will take a few weeks to model it.

20 days to run the 3D stress analysis, then make tooling, make it , measure it.

Test it, that must be a fuk that moment, takes too long.

Even in panic mode 4-6 months is quick.
Every days a school day.
 
fsabo
Posts: 156
Joined: Fri Dec 04, 2015 8:41 pm

Re: Airbus stops accepting PW1100G engines

Thu Feb 15, 2018 6:57 pm

lowbank wrote:
A fix in April, that’s a gut feel, finger in the wind promise their Engineers cannot keep.

It will take a few weeks to model it.

20 days to run the 3D stress analysis, then make tooling, make it , measure it.

Test it, that must be a fuk that moment, takes too long.

Even in panic mode 4-6 months is quick.


They could in theory go back to the old design until the fix done properly.
 
lowbank
Posts: 377
Joined: Wed Mar 25, 2009 9:10 pm

Re: Airbus stops accepting PW1100G engines

Thu Feb 15, 2018 7:10 pm

fsabo wrote:
lowbank wrote:
A fix in April, that’s a gut feel, finger in the wind promise their Engineers cannot keep.

It will take a few weeks to model it.

20 days to run the 3D stress analysis, then make tooling, make it , measure it.

Test it, that must be a fuk that moment, takes too long.

Even in panic mode 4-6 months is quick.


They could in theory go back to the old design until the fix done properly.


Depends what they changed and by how much.

Going backwards to old problems is normally frowned upon.
Every days a school day.
 
hayzel777
Posts: 516
Joined: Wed Mar 16, 2016 3:18 am

Re: Airbus stops accepting PW1100G engines

Thu Feb 15, 2018 7:26 pm

Newbiepilot wrote:
KarelXWB wrote:
Newbiepilot wrote:
Bad news, the fix may take 6 months or more before production can resume

- Hong Kong Express Airways Ltd expects at least a six-month delay in deliveries of new Airbus SE AIR.SE A320neo jets due to issues with engines made by Pratt & Whitney, according to an internal memo issued by the airline.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-hk-e ... SKCN1FZ0NQ


I imagine several airlines will take into account a worst possible delay, without really knowing how long it will take.

This week a fix is being proposed by P&W and Airbus today mentioned deliveries should resume in April.

estorilm wrote:
They're going to run out of space - how fast are they making these things again??


About 10 aircraft per month.

While a large inventory it not favorable to have as it is costly, the situation is manageable.


Will the good engines be going to Airbus to support deliveries or be sent to airlines to replacr engines on their grounded planes? The article i posted said priority is for airlines already delivered, so that may be causing the 6 month delivery delay. Airbus also stopped test flights

Airlines first then Airbus. It probably also helps to save costs since compensation to the airline(lost rev from not flying etc. etc.) is more than compensating Airbus.
 
User avatar
TheRedBaron
Posts: 3218
Joined: Tue Mar 29, 2005 6:17 am

Re: Airbus stops accepting PW1100G engines

Thu Feb 15, 2018 7:37 pm

A quick Question ... the affected part is easy to service or it involves tearing the whole engine apart? because these snags tend to get out of hand rather fast.... April is a lot of time and a lot of engineless aircraft sitting as real nice paperweights...
The best seat in a Plane is the Jumpseat.
 
Theseus
Posts: 201
Joined: Thu Oct 01, 2009 8:35 pm

Re: Airbus stops accepting PW1100G engines

Thu Feb 15, 2018 8:21 pm

Egerton wrote:
Having listened to the Airbus meeting this morning, it was said that on a first look, good P&W engines are expected in April.


While I wish them to come as early as possible, I hope it will not be on the first of the month...
 
User avatar
Revelation
Posts: 17869
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 9:37 pm

Re: Airbus stops accepting PW1100G engines

Thu Feb 15, 2018 8:22 pm

TheRedBaron wrote:
A quick Question ... the affected part is easy to service or it involves tearing the whole engine apart? because these snags tend to get out of hand rather fast.... April is a lot of time and a lot of engineless aircraft sitting as real nice paperweights...

And all we know about the April date is one a.net member saying they heard it mentioned on an Airbus conference call. Would be nice to know more.
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
The heart has it's beaches, it's homeland and thoughts of it's own
Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
The heart has it's seasons, it's evenings and songs of it's own
 
Newbiepilot
Posts: 2726
Joined: Tue Aug 30, 2016 10:18 pm

Re: Airbus stops accepting PW1100G engines

Thu Feb 15, 2018 8:46 pm

Revelation wrote:
TheRedBaron wrote:
A quick Question ... the affected part is easy to service or it involves tearing the whole engine apart? because these snags tend to get out of hand rather fast.... April is a lot of time and a lot of engineless aircraft sitting as real nice paperweights...

And all we know about the April date is one a.net member saying they heard it mentioned on an Airbus conference call. Would be nice to know more.


Yes would be nice to know more since the only other information that i have seen is that Hong Kong Express had a memo saying deliveries will be delayed 6 months. That would be august before deliveries resume
 
fcogafa
Posts: 1085
Joined: Fri May 16, 2008 4:37 pm

Re: Airbus stops accepting PW1100G engines

Thu Feb 15, 2018 10:19 pm

[quote=And all we know about the April date is one a.net member saying they heard it mentioned on an Airbus conference call. Would be nice to know more.[/quote]

I seem to remember similar rectification time scales were stated at the beginning of the last set of problems and that didn't quite go as planned
 
User avatar
Revelation
Posts: 17869
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 9:37 pm

Re: Airbus stops accepting PW1100G engines

Thu Feb 15, 2018 10:27 pm

Newbiepilot wrote:
Revelation wrote:
TheRedBaron wrote:
A quick Question ... the affected part is easy to service or it involves tearing the whole engine apart? because these snags tend to get out of hand rather fast.... April is a lot of time and a lot of engineless aircraft sitting as real nice paperweights...

And all we know about the April date is one a.net member saying they heard it mentioned on an Airbus conference call. Would be nice to know more.

Yes would be nice to know more since the only other information that i have seen is that Hong Kong Express had a memo saying deliveries will be delayed 6 months. That would be august before deliveries resume

Leeham / Hamilton ( https://leehamnews.com/2018/02/15/airbu ... -problems/ ) listened to the same conference call and tells us:

A new problem was detected for the Pratt & Whitney GTF engine last week. About 50 Airbus aircraft are affected by a changed component not performing correctly, causing major engine problems for affected aircraft.

Enders was confident the joint Airbus and Pratt & Whitney team would get on top of this problem as well. How long engine deliveries would be disturbed was too early to tell.

No mention of April, just "too early to tell".

Robert Wall's (WSJ) write up ( https://www.marketwatch.com/story/airbu ... 2018-02-15 ) says:

Last week, Airbus said problems with one of the engines, made by United Technologies Corp., were delaying some planes and put a hold on deliveries. Airbus said it was still assessing the impact of the problem on deliveries.

Again, nothing about April.
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
The heart has it's beaches, it's homeland and thoughts of it's own
Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
The heart has it's seasons, it's evenings and songs of it's own
 
WkndWanderer
Posts: 102
Joined: Sat Oct 21, 2017 6:36 pm

Re: Airbus stops accepting PW1100G engines

Thu Feb 15, 2018 11:44 pm

How much in engine concession payments does Airbus have to make vs. P&W? The portion of the Airbus investor presentation that says they paid out €7 billion in engine concessions in 2017 on commercial aircraft surprised me a bit.
 
brindabella
Posts: 348
Joined: Fri Apr 30, 2010 10:38 am

Re: Airbus stops accepting PW1100G engines

Fri Feb 16, 2018 3:44 am

A passing mention above was a new idea to me.
Obviously the customer airlines will have Contractural provisions to protect themselves in the event of late/flawed delivery by the engine supplier (PW here).
But I have always assumed that the airframe manufacturer & engine manufacturer did not have any such protective cross-clauses.
Just seems too hard.

But not so?

Is it the case that Airbus may have cause for redress against PW for losses caused by the late/flawed delivery of the -1100Gs to third parties (EG the ultimate customer airlines)?

Anyone know?

cheers
Billy
 
User avatar
zeke
Posts: 12212
Joined: Thu Dec 14, 2006 1:42 pm

Re: Airbus stops accepting PW1100G engines

Fri Feb 16, 2018 4:34 am

From AW&ST written by Jens Flottau, jens. ottau@aviationweek.com

Airbus Expects Pratt’s GTF Fix
To Be Ready In April
TOULOUSE—Airbus CEO Tom Enders said he is reasonably con dent that Pratt & Whitney can nd a quick resolution for the latest technical glitch on its PW1100G geared turbofan (GTF) engine powering A320neo-family aircraft.
Pratt told Airbus that it has identi ed the root cause of the problem, Enders told analysts Feb. 15 as the company presented its 2017 nancial results. The engine manufacturer has also committed to deliver the rst engines incorporating a x in April. That likely means GTF-powered A320neo deliveries will be halted for more than two months.
Airbus stopped taking additional PW1100Gs from Pratt, and deliveries of GTF-powered A320neo family aircraft were put on hold, after airlines reported four in ight shutdowns or rejected takeo s within a period of around ten days in late January and early February. The European Aviation Safety Agency (EASA) issued an emergency airworthiness directive (EAD) banning extended-range, twin-engine operations (ETOPS) for A320neo-family aircraft powered by one a ected PW1100G and grounding 11 aircraft with two of the faulty engines installed. The FAA followed with its own AD mirroring the EASA directive.
According to Pratt, an engineering change on the PW1100G was made in mid-2017 to improve durability and was introduced in revenue service on customer aircraft in December. But in late January and early February, “Four of these modi ed engines did not perform as anticipated,” Pratt conceded. The EASA directive stated the risk of a dual in ight engine failure.
According to Pratt, 43 of the modi ed engines have already been installed while a further 55 have been delivered to the Airbus nal assembly lines. The 43 engines are installed on 32 aircraft, 11 of which are powered by two a ected engines.


The article then goes on to indicate problems with the supply of CFM engines

The Airbus CEO also made clear that Pratt is “not alone” in causing A320neo delivery delays. “CFM is behind in [engine] deliveries to us and that is something that needs to be corrected,” Enders said. The CFM Leap-1A is the other engine option on A320neo family aircraft. Enders said he has a “commitment from the top leadership at GE and Safran [the CFM joint venture own- ers] that they will do everything they can to x this.”
Human rights lawyers are "ambulance chasers of the very worst kind.'" - Sky News
 
Newbiepilot
Posts: 2726
Joined: Tue Aug 30, 2016 10:18 pm

Re: Airbus stops accepting PW1100G engines

Fri Feb 16, 2018 4:41 am

WkndWanderer wrote:
How much in engine concession payments does Airbus have to make vs. P&W? The portion of the Airbus investor presentation that says they paid out €7 billion in engine concessions in 2017 on commercial aircraft surprised me a bit.


I was under the impression that concessions and compensation payments are usually capped at around 2-3% of purchase price
 
lowbank
Posts: 377
Joined: Wed Mar 25, 2009 9:10 pm

Re: Airbus stops accepting PW1100G engines

Sat Feb 17, 2018 7:50 am

What’s being said is a surprise to me.
They state they understand the true root cause, a couple of weeks after the issue presented itself. That’s really quick for root cause to be found. That suggests it’s a mistake that should have been spotted in the design and manufacturing phase.
I not sure I buy into that statement. The 3D stress software used today identifies any areas of concern. Every feature is scrutinised and analysed to a degree never done before both in the design phase and the manufacturing phase.
Most issues today I come across are complex issues, or issues caused by problems never seen before.
Every days a school day.
 
Jouhou
Posts: 637
Joined: Tue May 24, 2016 4:16 am

Re: Airbus stops accepting PW1100G engines

Sat Feb 17, 2018 8:39 am

lowbank wrote:
What’s being said is a surprise to me.
They state they understand the true root cause, a couple of weeks after the issue presented itself. That’s really quick for root cause to be found. That suggests it’s a mistake that should have been spotted in the design and manufacturing phase.
I not sure I buy into that statement. The 3D stress software used today identifies any areas of concern. Every feature is scrutinised and analysed to a degree never done before both in the design phase and the manufacturing phase.
Most issues today I come across are complex issues, or issues caused by problems never seen before.


I've seen a project that had many millions of dollars and years spent working on it... just to find out upon fruition of the idea it was never feasible in the first place. It turned out that all the focus on the complex new technology created a blind spot where no one noticed a glaring flaw in the whole concept. A few more millions and a few more attempts to find a way around the problem and the whole thing was just abandoned. In the end, it would only take a middle school understanding of science to have known it wouldn't work.

Basically, yes it's entirely possible they were too busy looking at the complex problems to notice a rudimentary flaw. Hopefully it is an easy fix, unlike my vague anecdotal story that I can't reveal specifics of.
 
mxaxai
Posts: 448
Joined: Sat Jun 18, 2016 7:29 am

Re: Airbus stops accepting PW1100G engines

Sat Feb 17, 2018 8:55 am

zeke wrote:
[...]reasonably con dent that Pratt & Whitney can nd a quick resolution [...] identi ed [...] 2017 nancial results. [...] deliver the rst engines [...] four in ight shutdowns or rejected takeo s [...] dual in ight engine failure.[...] modi ed engines [...] Airbus nal assembly lines. [...] two a ected engines.

Did you realize that you lost some "f"'s and the respective following letter during your copy & paste? Not criticizing, simply surprised how that would happen.
 
lowbank
Posts: 377
Joined: Wed Mar 25, 2009 9:10 pm

Re: Airbus stops accepting PW1100G engines

Sat Feb 17, 2018 8:57 am

Jouhou wrote:
lowbank wrote:
What’s being said is a surprise to me.
They state they understand the true root cause, a couple of weeks after the issue presented itself. That’s really quick for root cause to be found. That suggests it’s a mistake that should have been spotted in the design and manufacturing phase.
I not sure I buy into that statement. The 3D stress software used today identifies any areas of concern. Every feature is scrutinised and analysed to a degree never done before both in the design phase and the manufacturing phase.
Most issues today I come across are complex issues, or issues caused by problems never seen before.


I've seen a project that had many millions of dollars and years spent working on it... just to find out upon fruition of the idea it was never feasible in the first place. It turned out that all the focus on the complex new technology created a blind spot where no one noticed a glaring flaw in the whole concept. A few more millions and a few more attempts to find a way around the problem and the whole thing was just abandoned. In the end, it would only take a middle school understanding of science to have known it wouldn't work.

Basically, yes it's entirely possible they were too busy looking at the complex problems to notice a rudimentary flaw. Hopefully it is an easy fix, unlike my vague anecdotal story that I can't reveal specifics of.


Yes I agree with your story and I also have been involved in a project where they spent millions of pounds. In the first few months I explained why it would never work, based on my years of manufacturing and shop floor knowledge. They dropped me off the project. 4 years later they abandoned it. They just didn’t want to listen.
But still my point stands, neither project, yours or mine made it to production.
Ones that do have been assessed to a very high degree.
Every days a school day.
 
Jouhou
Posts: 637
Joined: Tue May 24, 2016 4:16 am

Re: Airbus stops accepting PW1100G engines

Sat Feb 17, 2018 9:08 am

lowbank wrote:
Jouhou wrote:
lowbank wrote:
What’s being said is a surprise to me.
They state they understand the true root cause, a couple of weeks after the issue presented itself. That’s really quick for root cause to be found. That suggests it’s a mistake that should have been spotted in the design and manufacturing phase.
I not sure I buy into that statement. The 3D stress software used today identifies any areas of concern. Every feature is scrutinised and analysed to a degree never done before both in the design phase and the manufacturing phase.
Most issues today I come across are complex issues, or issues caused by problems never seen before.


I've seen a project that had many millions of dollars and years spent working on it... just to find out upon fruition of the idea it was never feasible in the first place. It turned out that all the focus on the complex new technology created a blind spot where no one noticed a glaring flaw in the whole concept. A few more millions and a few more attempts to find a way around the problem and the whole thing was just abandoned. In the end, it would only take a middle school understanding of science to have known it wouldn't work.

Basically, yes it's entirely possible they were too busy looking at the complex problems to notice a rudimentary flaw. Hopefully it is an easy fix, unlike my vague anecdotal story that I can't reveal specifics of.


Yes I agree with your story and I also have been involved in a project where they spent millions of pounds. In the first few months I explained why it would never work, based on my years of manufacturing and shop floor knowledge. They dropped me off the project. 4 years later they abandoned it. They just didn’t want to listen.
But still my point stands, neither project, yours or mine made it to production.
Ones that do have been assessed to a very high degree.


But mine did in fact result in a catastrophic failure that could have taken many lives during testing. :(
 
lowbank
Posts: 377
Joined: Wed Mar 25, 2009 9:10 pm

Re: Airbus stops accepting PW1100G engines

Sat Feb 17, 2018 11:30 am

Jouhou wrote:
lowbank wrote:
Jouhou wrote:

I've seen a project that had many millions of dollars and years spent working on it... just to find out upon fruition of the idea it was never feasible in the first place. It turned out that all the focus on the complex new technology created a blind spot where no one noticed a glaring flaw in the whole concept. A few more millions and a few more attempts to find a way around the problem and the whole thing was just abandoned. In the end, it would only take a middle school understanding of science to have known it wouldn't work.

Basically, yes it's entirely possible they were too busy looking at the complex problems to notice a rudimentary flaw. Hopefully it is an easy fix, unlike my vague anecdotal story that I can't reveal specifics of.


Yes I agree with your story and I also have been involved in a project where they spent millions of pounds. In the first few months I explained why it would never work, based on my years of manufacturing and shop floor knowledge. They dropped me off the project. 4 years later they abandoned it. They just didn’t want to listen.
But still my point stands, neither project, yours or mine made it to production.
Ones that do have been assessed to a very high degree.


But mine did in fact result in a catastrophic failure that could have taken many lives during testing. :(


I am glad they found it on testing, or it manifested itself in testing so it didn’t get into production.
Every days a school day.
 
Jouhou
Posts: 637
Joined: Tue May 24, 2016 4:16 am

Re: Airbus stops accepting PW1100G engines

Sat Feb 17, 2018 11:48 am

lowbank wrote:
Jouhou wrote:
lowbank wrote:

Yes I agree with your story and I also have been involved in a project where they spent millions of pounds. In the first few months I explained why it would never work, based on my years of manufacturing and shop floor knowledge. They dropped me off the project. 4 years later they abandoned it. They just didn’t want to listen.
But still my point stands, neither project, yours or mine made it to production.
Ones that do have been assessed to a very high degree.


But mine did in fact result in a catastrophic failure that could have taken many lives during testing. :(


I am glad they found it on testing, or it manifested itself in testing so it didn’t get into production.


I suppose that's what testing is for. It's unfortunate it got as far as it did. The issue was wear related so it presented itself very suddenly after working out so well initially. But the problem at hand was pretty much an inevitable time bomb no matter what was done.
 
Newbiepilot
Posts: 2726
Joined: Tue Aug 30, 2016 10:18 pm

Re: Airbus stops accepting PW1100G engines

Sat Feb 17, 2018 4:27 pm

This article is speculating that 98 engines may be affected

On Thursday, in response to a query by TOI, PW said a total of 98 engines worldwide could be affected but currently what is confirmed is that 43 are affected by the regulator’s directive. Earlier in the week, on Monday, PW said in a statement that “the current population of impacted engines is 43 engines installed on 32 aircraft, of which 21 aircraft have one engine with the modified configuration, and 11 aircraft have two engines with that configuration”. Airbus had then said that around 30% of 113 A320neo aircraft in operation worldwide are equipped with either both or one engine affected category.

https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/cit ... 937556.cms

Is the problem worse than originally thought?
 
User avatar
Revelation
Posts: 17869
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 9:37 pm

Re: Airbus stops accepting PW1100G engines

Sat Feb 17, 2018 4:48 pm

zeke wrote:
The engine manufacturer has also committed to deliver the (fi)rst engines incorporating a (fi)x in April. That likely means GTF-powered A320neo deliveries will be halted for more than two months.

Thank you for the info, zeke.

I went to their web site and unfortunately it does not have the same article, but they warned that they are having web site problems.

I got an email from them (that anyone can get after free registration) that has a similar but longer report.

With regard to the current problem, it says:

Pratt says an engineering change was made in mid-2017 to improve durability and introduced into revenue service on customer aircraft in December.

So it arose from an attempt to improve durability rather than a manufacturing process change.

It talks about the final resolution of issues with (a) the bearing seals and (b) the cumbustor, which both were also failed attempts to address durability issues.

For the bearing seals it says:

The chief change to the bearing housing is a switch from the liftoff seal used in the original design to a dry-runningface seal that becomes the standard configuration. The dry-running face seal consists of a rotating mating ring made from a carbide material and a carbon-graphite stationary ring. The faces are flat and held tightly together using magnets or springs to prevent oil leaking through, despite the high revolutions. The liftoff seal, on the other hand, incorporates grooves and wedges to channel a thin film of air between the sliding sealing faces, which creates aerodynamic lift.

“We originally went with a liftoff seal because we thought it would be more durable over time. It turns out the problem we discovered was that the software was misreading the altitude, so the bellows were not putting enough pressure on the carbon seal to create that air bubble. Sometimes it was putting too much pressure, which was causing the carbon flakes to go into the oil side,” a Pratt spokeswoman says. The resulting gap between the carbon air seal and associated seal plate allowed traces of metal particles to enter the oil system and trigger chip-detector warnings.

Pratt paved the way to the final fix by introducing an interim upgrade package in May 2017 that included the addition of a venturi tube to reduce the air pressure directed at the bearing compartment as well as associated modifications to the electronic engine control software to restrict the airflow. The tube was external to the compartment itself but integral to the carbon seal package.

“The improvement package performed better than we had hoped, except for engines that had higher time on them, which had to be reprioritized for overhaul,” Pratt says. The liftoff seal and the improvement package “bought us time to work out whether we needed to develop a permanent fix to the liftoff seal or go to a standard brush seal or dry-face design,” Pratt adds. “We decided to go with a dry-face design, and that’s now part of the standard bill of material.”

For the combustor change it says:

The revised combustor configuration is designed to address the durability problems that led to a rash of premature engine removals by two Indian-based A320neo operators, GoAir and IndiGo. “We have roughly doubled the number of air cooling holes and configured the density of the holes to the lower left of intake/outtake valve. We essentially had the density in the wrong place originally,” the engine maker says.

The revised design is expected to increase durability by a factor of five over the baseline. Although the interim fix fielded in 2017 appears to be adequate for non-harsh environments, the revised combustor design will now be standard to cope with operations in areas such as China, India and the Middle East. All the upgrades have been introduced to production engines and will be woven into engines coming through for overhaul.

So, lots of details on how they addressed the earlier issues, but not much about the current issue, other than the first fix is expected in April after two months of disruption to deliveries.

It sounds like these fixes should be long lasting. It is disappointing that they were not found earlier, but I guess they needed a substantial number of engines in mainline service till the problems were identified.

For those wondering about the earlier shaft bowing problem, https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... lf-424321/ from April 2016 says:

P&W is further addressing the problem by applying a coating to some engine blades and strengthening the engine's third and fourth shaft bearings to prevent the harmonic vibration, Bromberg says.

"Then ultimately we are going to put coating on some of the blades that will improve the sealing function in the compressor," Bromberg says.

The third bearing seal is the one being discussed above.
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
The heart has it's beaches, it's homeland and thoughts of it's own
Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
The heart has it's seasons, it's evenings and songs of it's own
 
User avatar
crimsonchin
Posts: 474
Joined: Fri Feb 07, 2014 8:16 pm

Re: Airbus stops accepting PW1100G engines

Sat Feb 17, 2018 4:55 pm

P&W are pretty much finished after this I'd think.

I imagine Airbus will obviously have them sort out their issues on the NEO and have things continue as normal, but that's pretty much it. I don't expect them to be picked on any future A or B model. Embarrassing.
 
User avatar
ikolkyo
Posts: 1986
Joined: Tue Nov 05, 2013 8:43 pm

Re: Airbus stops accepting PW1100G engines

Sat Feb 17, 2018 4:56 pm

At this point I’d be terrified of any PIPs that Pratt has planned in the future, who knows if they’ll manage to mess something up again when they’re trying to improve the engine.
 
fsabo
Posts: 156
Joined: Fri Dec 04, 2015 8:41 pm

Re: Airbus stops accepting PW1100G engines

Sat Feb 17, 2018 6:47 pm

Revelation wrote:
zeke wrote:
The engine manufacturer has also committed to deliver the (fi)rst engines incorporating a (fi)x in April. That likely means GTF-powered A320neo deliveries will be halted for more than two months.

Thank you for the info, zeke.

I went to their web site and unfortunately it does not have the same article, but they warned that they are having web site problems.


Here April is mentioned...

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... fa-445968/

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos