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LockheedBBD
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Tariffs or sanctions against Airbus imports into the US are possible if Airbus loses at the WTO, says Boeing

Sun Feb 11, 2018 5:39 am

Interesting new article from the Seattle Times: https://www.seattletimes.com/business/b ... th-europe/




In September 2016, after multiple procedural steps and appeals, the last ruling in the United States’ WTO case against Airbus found that the European jet maker had fallen far short of remedying the harm to Boeing from illegal subsidies. The EU immediately appealed. What’s ahead this year, by late spring, is the final decision on that appeal.

If Airbus loses, said Bob Novick, Boeing’s outside counsel on the WTO dispute since 2003 and former general counsel to the U.S. Trade Representative, the U.S. would then immediately request authorization to impose retaliatory sanctions.

Boeing anticipates that the WTO will set the level of sanctions at $10 billion to $15 billion. The U.S. government could then slap punitive tariffs up to that amount on whatever EU goods it selects for maximum political impact.

Yes, Boeing gets tax breaks and so pays less tax on the income from the planes it rolls out each year. But it has to take all the risk and shoulder the multibillion-dollar cost when it develops a new airplane. Airbus gets upfront government loans amounting to billions of dollars to defray the cost in advance — with no repayment necessary if the new airplane project fails.
 
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LockheedBBD
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Re: Tariffs or sanctions against Airbus imports into the US are possible if Airbus loses at the WTO, says Boeing

Sun Feb 11, 2018 5:45 am

Maybe Bombardier should build a US FAL after all. After the Airbus deal closes, the CSeries will be an Airbus product, and any imports will be a subject to possible tariffs imposed against Airbus.
 
downdata
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Re: Tariffs or sanctions against Airbus imports into the US are possible if Airbus loses at the WTO, says Boeing

Sun Feb 11, 2018 5:47 am

The EU is not Canada, they have more than enough trade firepower to retaliate...
 
jubguy3
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Re: Tariffs or sanctions against Airbus imports into the US are possible if Airbus loses at the WTO, says Boeing

Sun Feb 11, 2018 5:49 am

Why compete when you can litigate your way to the top? Boeing is playing a risky game here. They are not immune to accusations of unfair competition, and I think that the EU would look very closely at blocking / putting tariffs on imported Boeing planes. Which is dumb, because in the end, nobody wins. The only advantage that Boeing has here is the date at which they filled the suit. I imagine that this is going to piss off Delta, Hawaiian, JetBlue, let's see... there's more... Spirit, Frontier, American, and United, and the newly formed Alaska Group. I don't think they want 8/9 US airlines on the wrong side of this. I don't know what Boeing is trying to do, because it's not like they could replace those A320 orders under any circumstances. And I don't know how Airbus would even retaliate.

A bunch of toddlers fighting.
 
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moo
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Re: Tariffs or sanctions against Airbus imports into the US are possible if Airbus loses at the WTO, says Boeing

Sun Feb 11, 2018 6:19 am

LockheedBBD wrote:
Interesting new article from the Seattle Times: https://www.seattletimes.com/business/b ... th-europe/




In September 2016, after multiple procedural steps and appeals, the last ruling in the United States’ WTO case against Airbus found that the European jet maker had fallen far short of remedying the harm to Boeing from illegal subsidies. The EU immediately appealed. What’s ahead this year, by late spring, is the final decision on that appeal.

If Airbus loses, said Bob Novick, Boeing’s outside counsel on the WTO dispute since 2003 and former general counsel to the U.S. Trade Representative, the U.S. would then immediately request authorization to impose retaliatory sanctions.

Boeing anticipates that the WTO will set the level of sanctions at $10 billion to $15 billion. The U.S. government could then slap punitive tariffs up to that amount on whatever EU goods it selects for maximum political impact.

Yes, Boeing gets tax breaks and so pays less tax on the income from the planes it rolls out each year. But it has to take all the risk and shoulder the multibillion-dollar cost when it develops a new airplane. Airbus gets upfront government loans amounting to billions of dollars to defray the cost in advance — with no repayment necessary if the new airplane project fails.


Oh look, a newspaper which gets the basic facts wrong...

For aid issued under 1992 LCA agreement (basically everything borrowed so far, as the bulk of the A350s aid was done under that agreement), Airbus still has to repay the aid regardless of the state of the project - if the project fails, either outright or through poor sales, Airbus has to repay the balance of the launch aid within 17 years.

They also fail to mention that Airbus pays royalties to European governments in perpetuity, with each and every frame delivered - the British government is on record saying that their investment in the A320 series has paid off handsomely several times over. Airbus are still paying those royalties from the 1980s on each and every A319, A320 and A321, both CEO and NEO, delivered. And that goes without saying the same is true for the A330, and yes even the A380 pays royalties on each delivery.
 
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Re: Tariffs or sanctions against Airbus imports into the US are possible if Airbus loses at the WTO, says Boeing

Sun Feb 11, 2018 8:25 am

moo wrote:

Oh look, a newspaper which gets the basic facts wrong...

For aid issued under 1992 LCA agreement (basically everything borrowed so far, as the bulk of the A350s aid was done under that agreement), Airbus still has to repay the aid regardless of the state of the project - if the project fails, either outright or through poor sales, Airbus has to repay the balance of the launch aid within 17 years.

They also fail to mention that Airbus pays royalties to European governments in perpetuity, with each and every frame delivered - the British government is on record saying that their investment in the A320 series has paid off handsomely several times over. Airbus are still paying those royalties from the 1980s on each and every A319, A320 and A321, both CEO and NEO, delivered. And that goes without saying the same is true for the A330, and yes even the A380 pays royalties on each delivery.


I remember we even had a thread about Airbus trying to reduce the amount of the royalties.
 
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Re: Tariffs or sanctions against Airbus imports into the US are possible if Airbus loses at the WTO, says Boeing

Sun Feb 11, 2018 9:08 am

The ultimate trade war: No more Boeings in EU and no more Airbuses in US. I have got to a point that I would love to see this happen and see those pushing for trade restrictions regret what they wanted.
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Re: Tariffs or sanctions against Airbus imports into the US are possible if Airbus loses at the WTO, says Boeing

Sun Feb 11, 2018 10:00 am

raylee67 wrote:
The ultimate trade war: No more Boeings in EU and no more Airbuses in US. I have got to a point that I would love to see this happen and see those pushing for trade restrictions regret what they wanted.


Nobody wins, the ultimate loose-loose.
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Re: Tariffs or sanctions against Airbus imports into the US are possible if Airbus loses at the WTO, says Boeing

Sun Feb 11, 2018 10:20 am

Dutchy wrote:
raylee67 wrote:
The ultimate trade war: No more Boeings in EU and no more Airbuses in US. I have got to a point that I would love to see this happen and see those pushing for trade restrictions regret what they wanted.


Nobody wins, the ultimate loose-loose.


But it seems to be what a lot of people now want to happen. It would be terrible for everyone. I cannot understand the desire to win in the courtrooms. Is Boeing that scared?
 
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Re: Tariffs or sanctions against Airbus imports into the US are possible if Airbus loses at the WTO, says Boeing

Sun Feb 11, 2018 10:32 am

StTim wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
raylee67 wrote:
The ultimate trade war: No more Boeings in EU and no more Airbuses in US. I have got to a point that I would love to see this happen and see those pushing for trade restrictions regret what they wanted.


Nobody wins, the ultimate loose-loose.


But it seems to be what a lot of people now want to happen. It would be terrible for everyone. I cannot understand the desire to win in the courtrooms. Is Boeing that scared?


Can't help to think this has also something to do with a change in Boeing's culture, from a more tech orientated, true to their origins, HQ in Settle, to a more MBA type, business orientated, HQ in Chicago. Sure Boeing was and still is a business, but the core might have changed and therefore how they handle these things might have changed as well.
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Re: Tariffs or sanctions against Airbus imports into the US are possible if Airbus loses at the WTO, says Boeing

Sun Feb 11, 2018 10:36 am

StTim wrote:
I cannot understand the desire to win in the courtrooms.


The infinite stupidity of mankind is impossible to understand my friend. History is full with examples.
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Re: Tariffs or sanctions against Airbus imports into the US are possible if Airbus loses at the WTO, says Boeing

Sun Feb 11, 2018 10:38 am

KarelXWB wrote:
StTim wrote:
I cannot understand the desire to win in the courtrooms.


The infinite stupidity of mankind is impossible to understand my friend. History is full with examples.



Sadly very true buddy :(
 
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Re: Tariffs or sanctions against Airbus imports into the US are possible if Airbus loses at the WTO, says Boeing

Sun Feb 11, 2018 11:00 am

StTim wrote:
KarelXWB wrote:
StTim wrote:
I cannot understand the desire to win in the courtrooms.


The infinite stupidity of mankind is impossible to understand my friend. History is full with examples.



Sadly very true buddy :(


Look at it another way, if you feel you have been wronged by another person or company and all other options have been exhausted, or proven futile, wouldn't you try that last resort, especially when you consider the sums of money involved ? I know people have different views about this topic, which, lets face it, most topics such as this have differing opinions, but IF the WTO is to rule against Airbus in this case, you can hardly blame Boeing.

It's not as though it will be Boeing that brings sanctions or tariffs into play either, that will be the U.S. Government and the relevant trade departments. I would hope that tariffs or sanctions don't happen, it probably wouldn't help either party involved, as no doubt that the current tit for tat would continue and Europe would retaliate in some form. Still, as someone who tries to be neutral in the fanboyism world of Anet, I could hardly blame Boeing for bringing the original case. The claim against Bombardier on the other, whether technically correct or not, was just petty.
 
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Re: Tariffs or sanctions against Airbus imports into the US are possible if Airbus loses at the WTO, says Boeing

Sun Feb 11, 2018 11:22 am

StTim wrote:
Is Boeing that scared?


Boeing is out of options.
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Re: Tariffs or sanctions against Airbus imports into the US are possible if Airbus loses at the WTO, says Boeing

Sun Feb 11, 2018 11:47 am

KarelXWB wrote:
StTim wrote:
I cannot understand the desire to win in the courtrooms.


The infinite stupidity of mankind is impossible to understand my friend. History is full with examples.

Reminds me of Albert Einstein’s famous quote:

“Two things are infinite; the universe and mankind’s stupidity, and I’m not sure about the former.”

What is Boeing trying to accomplish? As an American their antics with the C-Series and this simply look pathetic.
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Re: Tariffs or sanctions against Airbus imports into the US are possible if Airbus loses at the WTO, says Boeing

Sun Feb 11, 2018 12:01 pm

Yes, Boeing gets tax breaks and so pays less tax on the income from the planes it rolls out each year. But it has to take all the risk and shoulder the multibillion-dollar cost when it develops a new airplane. Airbus gets upfront government loans amounting to billions of dollars to defray the cost in advance — with no repayment necessary if the new airplane project fails.


1. Boeing 787 and Japan. Boeing deftly shifted financial, R&D and manufacturing costs to 'risk sharing partners' on this program. Had it been an utter failure, MHI and Alenia would have to shoulder their part of the costs all by their lonesome.
2. Airbus have to repay launch aid (up to and including the A350 anyways) regardless of whether the program makes money or not. And if it does make money, they'll have to pay royalties on top.

There's BS and then there's BS so easy to refute, it almost beggars belief. Still, the bloke has kept himself in a 1M+ USD a year job since 2003, can't actually blame him for doing his best to drag it out even further.
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bgm
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Re: Tariffs or sanctions against Airbus imports into the US are possible if Airbus loses at the WTO, says Boeing

Sun Feb 11, 2018 12:18 pm

How pathetic. Boeing, what the hell is wrong with you these days?

Reminds me about the US3 complaining about the ME3 because they can’t compete.
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Re: Tariffs or sanctions against Airbus imports into the US are possible if Airbus loses at the WTO, says Boeing

Sun Feb 11, 2018 12:18 pm

B777LRF wrote:
Yes, Boeing gets tax breaks and so pays less tax on the income from the planes it rolls out each year. But it has to take all the risk and shoulder the multibillion-dollar cost when it develops a new airplane. Airbus gets upfront government loans amounting to billions of dollars to defray the cost in advance — with no repayment necessary if the new airplane project fails.


1. Boeing 787 and Japan. Boeing deftly shifted financial, R&D and manufacturing costs to 'risk sharing partners' on this program. Had it been an utter failure, MHI and Alenia would have to shoulder their part of the costs all by their lonesome.
2. Airbus have to repay launch aid (up to and including the A350 anyways) regardless of whether the program makes money or not. And if it does make money, they'll have to pay royalties on top.

There's BS and then there's BS so easy to refute, it almost beggars belief. Still, the bloke has kept himself in a 1M+ USD a year job since 2003, can't actually blame him for doing his best to drag it out even further.


The WTO is an international body where both sides have presented their cases against one another. At some point don’t international trade rules have to be followed? Otherwise why have them?

And of course you are right Boeing gets help in other ways. But if the cases go through this process with international judges and one is ruled to be in violation while another isn’t then doesn’t logic say one side followed the rules and the other didn’t?
 
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Re: Tariffs or sanctions against Airbus imports into the US are possible if Airbus loses at the WTO, says Boeing

Sun Feb 11, 2018 12:22 pm

TranscendZac wrote:
KarelXWB wrote:
StTim wrote:
I cannot understand the desire to win in the courtrooms.


The infinite stupidity of mankind is impossible to understand my friend. History is full with examples.

Reminds me of Albert Einstein’s famous quote:

“Two things are infinite; the universe and mankind’s stupidity, and I’m not sure about the former.”

What is Boeing trying to accomplish? As an American their antics with the C-Series and this simply look pathetic.


Keep in mind that with the C-series the process basically established that Canada broke just about every rule out there but that Boeing specifically didn’t have a product competing against the cs-100. I am not so sure the result would be the same on larger models.

I would also bet Brazil’s eventually WTO action will find against BBD....in like 15 years.
 
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zeke
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Re: Tariffs or sanctions against Airbus imports into the US are possible if Airbus loses at the WTO, says Boeing

Sun Feb 11, 2018 12:24 pm

And Airbus USA has the right to petition the WTO against Japan, Korea, and a China for the parts they make for Boeing.

Don’t poke hornets nests with sticks.
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bigjku
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Re: Tariffs or sanctions against Airbus imports into the US are possible if Airbus loses at the WTO, says Boeing

Sun Feb 11, 2018 12:25 pm

bgm wrote:
How pathetic. Boeing, what the hell is wrong with you these days?

Reminds me about the US3 complaining about the ME3 because they can’t compete.


To establish ground rules a bit...if someone is actual breaking WTO rules do you believe anything should be done?

I am just curious. The facts of the cases are often highly technical and legalistic but I sense many people simply would rather never see any trade rules enforced on this particular industry. Or is it any industry?
 
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Re: Tariffs or sanctions against Airbus imports into the US are possible if Airbus loses at the WTO, says Boeing

Sun Feb 11, 2018 12:25 pm

jupiter2 wrote:
Look at it another way, if you feel you have been wronged by another person or company and all other options have been exhausted, or proven futile, wouldn't you try that last resort, especially when you consider the sums of money involved ? I know people have different views about this topic, which, lets face it, most topics such as this have differing opinions, but IF the WTO is to rule against Airbus in this case, you can hardly blame Boeing.


There is nothing wrong with the WTO ruling against Airbus if something has been done wrong. My comment was a reply to a trade war suggestion. In my opinion, a trade war on this scale would be by definition stupid. Boeing alone has a lot a suppliers in Europe, I suppose it's in their interest to not go down that road.

It's not as though it will be Boeing that brings sanctions or tariffs into play either, that will be the U.S. Government and the relevant trade departments. I would hope that tariffs or sanctions don't happen, it probably wouldn't help either party involved, as no doubt that the current tit for tat would continue and Europe would retaliate in some form.


That is true. Boeing, nor the WTO, can get tariffs applied. Both parties can even ignore WTO findings if they wish.

I don't think the U.S. Government will slap tariffs on Airbus products, but the article suggest that Boeing lawyers will at least try as hard as they can to get U.S. Government aboard.

Still, as someone who tries to be neutral in the fanboyism world of Anet, I could hardly blame Boeing for bringing the original case. The claim against Bombardier on the other, whether technically correct or not, was just petty.


Alternatively Boeing could just accept the outcome of the original case and move on.

bigjku wrote:
The WTO is an international body where both sides have presented their cases against one another. At some point don’t international trade rules have to be followed? Otherwise why have them?


It should be in everyone's interest to follow international trade rules. However, at the end of the day, the WTO cannot enforce the rules.
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StTim
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Re: Tariffs or sanctions against Airbus imports into the US are possible if Airbus loses at the WTO, says Boeing

Sun Feb 11, 2018 12:28 pm

The US does not have a good reputation for sticking to WTO rules. Indeed the current resident of the Whitehouse is proposing they ignore the WTO rules?

Is the world going completely mad?

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/won ... e61be65077
 
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Re: Tariffs or sanctions against Airbus imports into the US are possible if Airbus loses at the WTO, says Boeing

Sun Feb 11, 2018 12:45 pm

I feel there is a lot of money spent for the process, attorneys, etc, with very little to gain.
To be perfectly honest, I wonder why Boeing and Airbus even pursue those cases.

At the end of the day, US-European trade is far far larger than commercial Airplanes. Why bother? It seems like a net loss of money for both companies...
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Re: Tariffs or sanctions against Airbus imports into the US are possible if Airbus loses at the WTO, says Boeing

Sun Feb 11, 2018 12:48 pm

Nicoeddf wrote:
I feel there is a lot of money spent for the process, attorneys, etc, with very little to gain.
To be perfectly honest, I wonder why Boeing and Airbus even pursue those cases.

At the end of the day, US-European trade is far far larger than commercial Airplanes. Why bother? It seems like a net loss of money for both companies...


The companies themselves cannot go to the WTO, it is the government. Governments are known for wasting money.
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Re: Tariffs or sanctions against Airbus imports into the US are possible if Airbus loses at the WTO, says Boeing

Sun Feb 11, 2018 12:50 pm

zeke wrote:
Nicoeddf wrote:
I feel there is a lot of money spent for the process, attorneys, etc, with very little to gain.
To be perfectly honest, I wonder why Boeing and Airbus even pursue those cases.

At the end of the day, US-European trade is far far larger than commercial Airplanes. Why bother? It seems like a net loss of money for both companies...


The companies themselves cannot go to the WTO, it is the government. Governments are known for wasting money.


Zeke, come on. Governments go on behalf of companies lobbying for support. Of course you know that already.
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ExMilitaryEng
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Re: Tariffs or sanctions against Airbus imports into the US are possible if Airbus loses at the WTO, says Boeing

Sun Feb 11, 2018 2:46 pm

bigjku wrote:
Keep in mind that with the C-series the process basically established that Canada broke just about every rule out there but that Boeing specifically didn’t have a product competing against the cs-100.

That's was discussed ad nauseum.

Remember the word "Hypocrites" that was widely circulating?

There was that $1B Quebec investment for a 49.5 % equity in the CS program. And then what, can you state what else exactly?

Now compare that to the $Bs Boeing received in tax breaks just from Washington state (not repayable, not for equity, just free!).
 
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Re: Tariffs or sanctions against Airbus imports into the US are possible if Airbus loses at the WTO, says Boeing

Sun Feb 11, 2018 4:25 pm

ExMilitaryEng wrote:
bigjku wrote:
Keep in mind that with the C-series the process basically established that Canada broke just about every rule out there but that Boeing specifically didn’t have a product competing against the cs-100.

That's was discussed ad nauseum.

Remember the word "Hypocrites" that was widely circulating?

There was that $1B Quebec investment for a 49.5 % equity in the CS program. And then what, can you state what else exactly?

Now compare that to the $Bs Boeing received in tax breaks just from Washington state (not repayable, not for equity, just free!).


But Boeing still pays taxes in the states where they have tax breaks. The incentive for the states involved is that it keeps thousand of people employed in their states, that keeps tax revenue rolling in from them and the businesses aligned with both Boeing being in the state and servicing the employees employed by Boeing.

Do you think Airbus picked Alabama for their U.S. assembly plant by accident ? They got the best deal offered by the states bidding for the facility from Alabama, no different to Boeing further investing in Washington state and setting up in South Carolina.
 
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Re: Tariffs or sanctions against Airbus imports into the US are possible if Airbus loses at the WTO, says Boeing

Sun Feb 11, 2018 4:35 pm

bigjku wrote:
At some point don’t international trade rules have to be followed? Otherwise why have them?


With the US government for some time (not even mentioning China), and now even more with Trump, the question is indeed up in the air. "America First", no ?

For example the US has slapped billions upon billions of sanctions upon European banks for having participated in deals with Iran. Deals that were perfectly legal under international law.
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ExMilitaryEng
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Re: Tariffs or sanctions against Airbus imports into the US are possible if Airbus loses at the WTO, says Boeing

Sun Feb 11, 2018 5:08 pm

jupiter2 wrote:
But Boeing still pays taxes in the states where they have tax breaks. The incentive for the states involved is that it keeps thousand of people employed in their states, that keeps tax revenue rolling in from them and the businesses aligned with both Boeing being in the state and servicing the employees employed by Boeing.
Not sure how relevant this is in diminishing Boeing "hypocrisy"...

FWIW, BBD has an even bigger tax burden, being located in Canada. Same for their employees in term of income taxation. (Someone have to contribute for that free health care, better social policies etc).

But hey, maybe Canada should just give BBD similar tax breaks instead! BBD would not have to reimburse anything, or sell any parts of the business.

That would just be free money! (That would be so much better for a shareholder like me)
 
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Re: Tariffs or sanctions against Airbus imports into the US are possible if Airbus loses at the WTO, says Boeing

Sun Feb 11, 2018 5:19 pm

Another case where only the lawyers win.
 
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Re: Tariffs or sanctions against Airbus imports into the US are possible if Airbus loses at the WTO, says Boeing

Sun Feb 11, 2018 5:22 pm

jupiter2 wrote:
ExMilitaryEng wrote:
bigjku wrote:
Keep in mind that with the C-series the process basically established that Canada broke just about every rule out there but that Boeing specifically didn’t have a product competing against the cs-100.

That's was discussed ad nauseum.

Remember the word "Hypocrites" that was widely circulating?

There was that $1B Quebec investment for a 49.5 % equity in the CS program. And then what, can you state what else exactly?

Now compare that to the $Bs Boeing received in tax breaks just from Washington state (not repayable, not for equity, just free!).


But Boeing still pays taxes in the states where they have tax breaks. The incentive for the states involved is that it keeps thousand of people employed in their states, that keeps tax revenue rolling in from them and the businesses aligned with both Boeing being in the state and servicing the employees employed by Boeing.

Do you think Airbus picked Alabama for their U.S. assembly plant by accident ? They got the best deal offered by the states bidding for the facility from Alabama, no different to Boeing further investing in Washington state and setting up in South Carolina.

That’s not much of a talking point. I could make $100,000 a year and cheat and only pay $1 in tax and that’s still paying tax. What you have to look at is how much tax they don’t pay that they would if they didn’t get breaks. It’s well in the billions.
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Re: Tariffs or sanctions against Airbus imports into the US are possible if Airbus loses at the WTO, says Boeing

Sun Feb 11, 2018 5:43 pm

Boeing is a very weird company, I have to say. They think they can bully their way into anything, but they forget just how much more connected politically Airbus is worldwide, together with its home countries, France and Germany. Boeing may inadvertantly start a huge trade war which they will lose so much that Embraer will buy them.
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Re: Tariffs or sanctions against Airbus imports into the US are possible if Airbus loses at the WTO, says Boeing

Sun Feb 11, 2018 5:53 pm

Tax exemptions give specific companies financial advantages against other companies. They also are something of a race to the bottom reducing monies for roads, education, infrastructure as well as social welfare. In some ways subsidies are better from an economics standpoint. They are specific, can be targeted to certain benefits, and are likely to be more limited. If Washington state had to cut the budget or raise taxes to come up with $7 billion it would never have passed. Of course with all the competition in other states tax cutting only for Boeing may have made sense.
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Re: Tariffs or sanctions against Airbus imports into the US are possible if Airbus loses at the WTO, says Boeing

Sun Feb 11, 2018 5:57 pm

No one at Boeing really wants sanctions any more than anyone in the US government (at least up until the end of 2016) wants to nuke North Korea. What they want is the threat, and this is what this article is all about, a threat to force negotiations to avoid the ultimate outcome.

Even Boeing's lawyers know the risk with sanctions is there is no predicting how the EU will retaliate. Best case scenario, the EU does to Boeing and the US aerospace industry what the US does to the EU's. Worst case scenario, the EU goes after industries where the damages are far more one-sided, and with more lobbying power than Boeing. I can think of one or two areas the EU could target almost overnight with very little risk of legal repercussions or downside for EU businesses. Either things will de-escalate from there, and Boeing will be the loser, or we will be headed towards a full trade war...
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Re: Tariffs or sanctions against Airbus imports into the US are possible if Airbus loses at the WTO, says Boeing

Sun Feb 11, 2018 6:26 pm

blueflyer wrote:
No one at Boeing really wants sanctions any more than anyone in the US government (at least up until the end of 2016) wants to nuke North Korea. What they want is the threat, and this is what this article is all about, a threat to force negotiations to avoid the ultimate outcome.

Even Boeing's lawyers know the risk with sanctions is there is no predicting how the EU will retaliate. Best case scenario, the EU does to Boeing and the US aerospace industry what the US does to the EU's. Worst case scenario, the EU goes after industries where the damages are far more one-sided, and with more lobbying power than Boeing. I can think of one or two areas the EU could target almost overnight with very little risk of legal repercussions or downside for EU businesses. Either things will de-escalate from there, and Boeing will be the loser, or we will be headed towards a full trade war...


Under a "normal" US administration, all the things you said would be 100% valid. But under the current US administration, the idea of a trade war with the EU is 100% possible. There is a distinct overconfidence in the ability of the US to survive all on its own and on the outside of global networks if need be. For guidance of how the EU will handle this IF we get to sanctions, look no further than how much inroads the UK have been able to make in their Brexit negotiations...zero. Unlike the US, Europe sees itself as part of an interconnected world and understands that it has to coexist, but will not be taken advantage of.
 
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Re: Tariffs or sanctions against Airbus imports into the US are possible if Airbus loses at the WTO, says Boeing

Sun Feb 11, 2018 6:54 pm

bigjku wrote:
The WTO is an international body where both sides have presented their cases against one another. At some point don’t international trade rules have to be followed? Otherwise why have them?

And of course you are right Boeing gets help in other ways. But if the cases go through this process with international judges and one is ruled to be in violation while another isn’t then doesn’t logic say one side followed the rules and the other didn’t?


You are absolutely right, but I've never claimed Airbus didn't receive subsidies; repayable or low interest it is still their only means of bringing a new product to market with a chance of profitability. But here's the thing, I don't think Boeing are innocent either. And that's what makes this whole farce idiotic; Boeing lodged a complaint first, and might very well win it. And some time after that, it's just as likely Airbus will win their claim. Which is the epitome of a pointless p1ssing match, with the end result everyone ends up wet and smelly.

I do wonder, with a 14-year streak, how much the combined lawyer bill is. Hundred million bucks or so?
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bigjku
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Re: Tariffs or sanctions against Airbus imports into the US are possible if Airbus loses at the WTO, says Boeing

Sun Feb 11, 2018 7:10 pm

B777LRF wrote:
bigjku wrote:
The WTO is an international body where both sides have presented their cases against one another. At some point don’t international trade rules have to be followed? Otherwise why have them?

And of course you are right Boeing gets help in other ways. But if the cases go through this process with international judges and one is ruled to be in violation while another isn’t then doesn’t logic say one side followed the rules and the other didn’t?


You are absolutely right, but I've never claimed Airbus didn't receive subsidies; repayable or low interest it is still their only means of bringing a new product to market with a chance of profitability. But here's the thing, I don't think Boeing are innocent either. And that's what makes this whole farce idiotic; Boeing lodged a complaint first, and might very well win it. And some time after that, it's just as likely Airbus will win their claim. Which is the epitome of a pointless p1ssing match, with the end result everyone ends up wet and smelly.

I do wonder, with a 14-year streak, how much the combined lawyer bill is. Hundred million bucks or so?


Just as a hypothetical what if Boeing wins and Airbus doesn’t? Or what if Boeing wins wirha much bigger number than Airbus? Where does that leave your thoughts?

I am genuinely curious. It’s not a great circumstance all around.
 
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Re: Tariffs or sanctions against Airbus imports into the US are possible if Airbus loses at the WTO, says Boeing

Sun Feb 11, 2018 7:54 pm

bigjku wrote:
Just as a hypothetical what if Boeing wins and Airbus doesn’t? Or what if Boeing wins wirha much bigger number than Airbus? Where does that leave your thoughts?

I am genuinely curious. It’s not a great circumstance all around.


It's all a political circus. I recall an intermediate ruling a few years ago, where both the US (Boeing) and EU (Airbus) claimed to have won. In other words, they'll interpret whichever wishy-washy ruling is handed down in a way that suits them best. Then the circus will roll on, making even more lawyers even richer. And that's about all this will ever come to.
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Revelation
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Re: Tariffs or sanctions against Airbus imports into the US are possible if Airbus loses at the WTO, says Boeing

Sun Feb 11, 2018 8:48 pm

moo wrote:
They also fail to mention that Airbus pays royalties to European governments in perpetuity, with each and every frame delivered - the British government is on record saying that their investment in the A320 series has paid off handsomely several times over. Airbus are still paying those royalties from the 1980s on each and every A319, A320 and A321, both CEO and NEO, delivered. And that goes without saying the same is true for the A330, and yes even the A380 pays royalties on each delivery.

Is that material to this case?

It's kind of like saying the original crime is OK as long as proceeds are given to charity, which takes attention away from the original crime that the case is all about.
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Re: Tariffs or sanctions against Airbus imports into the US are possible if Airbus loses at the WTO, says Boeing

Sun Feb 11, 2018 9:14 pm

B777LRF wrote:
bigjku wrote:
Just as a hypothetical what if Boeing wins and Airbus doesn’t? Or what if Boeing wins wirha much bigger number than Airbus? Where does that leave your thoughts?

I am genuinely curious. It’s not a great circumstance all around.


It's all a political circus. I recall an intermediate ruling a few years ago, where both the US (Boeing) and EU (Airbus) claimed to have won. In other words, they'll interpret whichever wishy-washy ruling is handed down in a way that suits them best. Then the circus will roll on, making even more lawyers even richer. And that's about all this will ever come to.


Exactly. Although Boeing seems to be getting a bit carried away recently with this kind of nonsense. I can't hep thinking it does them more harm than good - if I was an airline CEO I would see this as desperation and it would make me question their product if they continually resort to lawsuits.
 
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cpd
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Re: Tariffs or sanctions against Airbus imports into the US are possible if Airbus loses at the WTO, says Boeing

Sun Feb 11, 2018 9:22 pm

Let it happen - and lets have an almighty massive trade war. All USA products get hit with tariffs, the USA gets whacked with sanctions by a lot of other countries. That's the perfect solution.

Meanwhile, the lawyers will be retiring on an nice island somewhere with their feet up, sipping expensive champagne, satisfied with their work. I'm not a fan of these trade wars.
 
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Re: Tariffs or sanctions against Airbus imports into the US are possible if Airbus loses at the WTO, says Boeing

Sun Feb 11, 2018 10:28 pm

Revelation wrote:
It's kind of like saying the original crime is OK as long as proceeds are given to charity, which takes attention away from the original crime that the case is all about.


RLI was never deemed illegal, all they determined was the interest rate was below commercial rates. However the interest rate does not take into account royalty payments. I understand the A320 program for example has paid in excess of commercial rates if all the repayments are taken into account.

RLI was also an agreed form of funding in the WTO EU-US large commercial airliner agreement which the US unilaterally cancelled.
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Re: Tariffs or sanctions against Airbus imports into the US are possible if Airbus loses at the WTO, says Boeing

Sun Feb 11, 2018 11:10 pm

From the same article, it seems EU lawyers are already preparing for a trade war:

“The EU would be well-prepared to respond in kind and with much greater force,” said the Airbus legal executive. “The EU will survive that first nuclear strike and will retaliate with megatons to the U.S.’s kilotons.”

In a speech in London last month, Airbus CEO Tom Enders said that under Trump, the U.S. is “no longer fighting for opening markets but to close the U.S. market to … foreign competitors.”


Can't believe what I'm reading here. And clearly Boeing won't give up:

Yet Boeing’s top lawyer, Michael Luttig, said in an interview that the law is about to catch up with Airbus and the European Union (EU).

“Boeing committed itself some 15 years ago … and it has never blinked since,” said Luttig. “Today, we are months away from the imposition of tariffs.”


Strong language, as usual.
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itisi
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Re: Tariffs or sanctions against Airbus imports into the US are possible if Airbus loses at the WTO, says Boeing

Mon Feb 12, 2018 12:09 am

The Boeing way.... run for help. Look at the USAF 767 deal.....
737-300/400/500 ... are NOT classics :)
 
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Re: Tariffs or sanctions against Airbus imports into the US are possible if Airbus loses at the WTO, says Boeing

Mon Feb 12, 2018 12:36 am

KarelXWB wrote:
From the same article, it seems EU lawyers are already preparing for a trade war:

“The EU would be well-prepared to respond in kind and with much greater force,” said the Airbus legal executive. “The EU will survive that first nuclear strike and will retaliate with megatons to the U.S.’s kilotons.”

In a speech in London last month, Airbus CEO Tom Enders said that under Trump, the U.S. is “no longer fighting for opening markets but to close the U.S. market to … foreign competitors.”


Can't believe what I'm reading here. And clearly Boeing won't give up:

Yet Boeing’s top lawyer, Michael Luttig, said in an interview that the law is about to catch up with Airbus and the European Union (EU).

“Boeing committed itself some 15 years ago … and it has never blinked since,” said Luttig. “Today, we are months away from the imposition of tariffs.”


Strong language, as usual.


EU sound desperate. This isn't WTO case brought by Trump. It was brought by Bush and Europe had all through the Obama administration to settle. But they chose not to and now because of their intransigence they face someone maybe more intransigent then they have been. Good it will be lesson to Europe to make deals on trade and not try and stone wall the issue for 15 years until final verdict.
 
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Re: Tariffs or sanctions against Airbus imports into the US are possible if Airbus loses at the WTO, says Boeing

Mon Feb 12, 2018 12:44 am

Boeing is heavily subsidized.
Airbus is heavily subsidized.
Embraer is heavily subsidized.
Bombardier is heavily subsidized.
COMAC is heavily subsidized.

Etc.

This has been going on since day one of aviation. Everyone knows it, that's why there were plenty of exceptions, including under WTO rules, for aircraft production.

If Boeing wants to break the status quo, there will be consequences.
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rigo
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Re: Tariffs or sanctions against Airbus imports into the US are possible if Airbus loses at the WTO, says Boeing

Mon Feb 12, 2018 1:14 am

jubguy3 wrote:
Why compete when you can litigate your way to the top? Boeing is playing a risky game here.


That's what happens when a company replaces its engineers with twice as many lawyers. On the other hand, there may unfortunately be a merit there too. It looks like Boeing has some clear air ahead (no pun intended). Look at Airbus: with the corruption investigations going on, sh!t is about to hit the proverbial fan. Plus the A320Neo is plagued with its engine problems that Airbus can't do much about, but it's going to cost them. The A330Neo is not selling. The A380 is a slug. Of all current Airbus programs, only the A350 is not in trouble. So strictly from a beancounter's prospective, Boeing may better take advantage of the respite to play dirty tricks rather than "waste" its resources on investment and development :banghead:
 
SC430
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Re: Tariffs or sanctions against Airbus imports into the US are possible if Airbus loses at the WTO, says Boeing

Mon Feb 12, 2018 2:14 am

Let's see.... Boeing made it's case before the WTO fifteen years ago. If the case had no merit it would not have been decided in Boeing's favor witch led to appeals by Airbus. The appeals process is now winding down and Boeing and Airbus will have to live with the findings. Unless many here feel the WTO is not a fair body, what's your bitch?

Boeing has to live with the recent ruling on the C series - Airbus will have to live with the WTO ruling should it not go in their favor. Stop your whining!!
 
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Re: Tariffs or sanctions against Airbus imports into the US are possible if Airbus loses at the WTO, says Boeing

Mon Feb 12, 2018 2:29 am

SC430 wrote:
Let's see.... Boeing made it's case before the WTO fifteen years ago. If the case had no merit it would not have been decided in Boeing's favor witch led to appeals by Airbus. The appeals process is now winding down and Boeing and Airbus will have to live with the findings. Unless many here feel the WTO is not a fair body, what's your bitch?

Boeing has to live with the recent ruling on the C series - Airbus will have to live with the WTO ruling should it not go in their favor. Stop your whining!!


Couldn't agree more. Let's just all wait and see what happens.
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