Route66
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Re: Tariffs or sanctions against Airbus imports into the US are possible if Airbus loses at the WTO, says Boeing

Mon Feb 12, 2018 4:21 am

For all those who usually profess the sanctity of "world" organizations, often from Europe, is the WTO a legitimate world body, or not?
 
crownvic
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Re: Tariffs or sanctions against Airbus imports into the US are possible if Airbus loses at the WTO, says Boeing

Mon Feb 12, 2018 5:41 am

Siddar wrote:
KarelXWB wrote:
From the same article, it seems EU lawyers are already preparing for a trade war:

“The EU would be well-prepared to respond in kind and with much greater force,” said the Airbus legal executive. “The EU will survive that first nuclear strike and will retaliate with megatons to the U.S.’s kilotons.”

In a speech in London last month, Airbus CEO Tom Enders said that under Trump, the U.S. is “no longer fighting for opening markets but to close the U.S. market to … foreign competitors.”


Can't believe what I'm reading here. And clearly Boeing won't give up:

Yet Boeing’s top lawyer, Michael Luttig, said in an interview that the law is about to catch up with Airbus and the European Union (EU).

“Boeing committed itself some 15 years ago … and it has never blinked since,” said Luttig. “Today, we are months away from the imposition of tariffs.”


Strong language, as usual.



Because that is what most do. Blame Trump for everything (even if he has nothing to do with a given subject!)...On another note, I have not read one post on this forum where Boeing maybe looking at the bigger picture, which could be China down the road. I am not here to defend Boeing, but maybe the Bombardier/Airbus thing is a victim of Boeing's long term concern with China's production if and when they become mass market products?
EU sound desperate. This isn't WTO case brought by Trump. It was brought by Bush and Europe had all through the Obama administration to settle. But they chose not to and now because of their intransigence they face someone maybe more intransigent then they have been. Good it will be lesson to Europe to make deals on trade and not try and stone wall the issue for 15 years until final verdict.
 
ytz
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Re: Tariffs or sanctions against Airbus imports into the US are possible if Airbus loses at the WTO, says Boeing

Mon Feb 12, 2018 5:58 am

Dutchy wrote:
raylee67 wrote:
The ultimate trade war: No more Boeings in EU and no more Airbuses in US. I have got to a point that I would love to see this happen and see those pushing for trade restrictions regret what they wanted.


Nobody wins, the ultimate loose-loose.


I'm not sure about that. I'd argue that Airbus wins. They have a larger and growing home market. And once Boeing throws that grade, the Chinese will justify locking others out of their market. And Airbus at least has plants in China.
 
ytz
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Re: Tariffs or sanctions against Airbus imports into the US are possible if Airbus loses at the WTO, says Boeing

Mon Feb 12, 2018 6:16 am

ExMilitaryEng wrote:
jupiter2 wrote:
But Boeing still pays taxes in the states where they have tax breaks. The incentive for the states involved is that it keeps thousand of people employed in their states, that keeps tax revenue rolling in from them and the businesses aligned with both Boeing being in the state and servicing the employees employed by Boeing.
Not sure how relevant this is in diminishing Boeing "hypocrisy"...

FWIW, BBD has an even bigger tax burden, being located in Canada. Same for their employees in term of income taxation. (Someone have to contribute for that free health care, better social policies etc).

But hey, maybe Canada should just give BBD similar tax breaks instead! BBD would not have to reimburse anything, or sell any parts of the business.

That would just be free money! (That would be so much better for a shareholder like me)


I have said this more and I'll say it again. Just give Bombardier massively over-inflated military contracts. That's how you shovel money into an aerospace company. If the Government of Canada had given Bombardier $5 billion to develop a new "military" transport aircraft with the same specs as the CSeries, the legal wrangling would be very different here.

Oh and instead of giving them loans when they need it, give Bombardier multi-decade long provincial tax breaks, just like Boeing gets from Washington state. All in the name of jobs, of course. Don't have to make them too stringent. Boeing still gets to move work to "right-to-work" states.

We, Canadians, just suck at playing the game. We have to normalize the corruption and just work it into the background. Instead of some large loan every 15 years, make sure they pay almost nothing in taxes and get fat military contracts. That would get them far more than a development loan ever could and they'd have to give up a lot less than the equity stake they had to give Quebec.

Can't fight the system. We need to learn how to exploit it. Ditto for others. I think it's time for the EU to request that Airbus develop a 200 - 250 seat narrow body airliner with medium haul capabilities. All required for passenger transport by the airlines...cough cough....I mean air forces of Europe.
 
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TheRedBaron
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Re: Tariffs or sanctions against Airbus imports into the US are possible if Airbus loses at the WTO, says Boeing

Mon Feb 12, 2018 6:56 am

What are a hundred lawyers drown on the bottom the sea?

A good start!!!

Sadly the USA is looking more and more like the USSR of the 70´s now...

Best regards
TRB
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ap305
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Re: Tariffs or sanctions against Airbus imports into the US are possible if Airbus loses at the WTO, says Boeing

Mon Feb 12, 2018 7:07 am

This is just posturing for a settlement... Boeing has as much to lose as Airbus in any trade war.
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keesje
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Re: Tariffs or sanctions against Airbus imports into the US are possible if Airbus loses at the WTO, says Boeing

Mon Feb 12, 2018 7:40 am

I don't see this as a sign if strenght from Boeing, not st all. Political opportunism backfired once recently.
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
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KarelXWB
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Re: Tariffs or sanctions against Airbus imports into the US are possible if Airbus loses at the WTO, says Boeing

Mon Feb 12, 2018 7:52 am

ap305 wrote:
This is just posturing for a settlement... Boeing has as much to lose as Airbus in any trade war.


A settlement would be a logical outcome, you pay the bill and move on.

Applying tariffs on the other hand would basically keep Airbus products out of the US for the foreseeable future. Such a move would prompt Europe to respond even harder. I'm not sure why the U.S. Gouvernement would go down that road.
What we leave behind is not as important as how we've lived.
 
WIederling
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Re: Tariffs or sanctions against Airbus imports into the US are possible if Airbus loses at the WTO, says Boeing

Mon Feb 12, 2018 12:26 pm

KarelXWB wrote:
I'm not sure why the U.S. Gouvernement would go down that road.


Either because they think that they are impervious to retaliation.
( also just going the escalation path brings gains just from the counter reaction delay.)
or
Expect some strong change in things global that allows gaining from tariffs now
while things beyond are "different".

While the US kicked of the GFC the resultant damage was mostly offshored.
Murphy is an optimist
 
StTim
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Re: Tariffs or sanctions against Airbus imports into the US are possible if Airbus loses at the WTO, says Boeing

Mon Feb 12, 2018 1:28 pm

Trade wars are bad for all - except possibly the lawyers.

The world is just recovering from a US led financial crisis and now it seems they want to plunge into a trade war.

Yes the worst excesses need to be stopped but I would argue here we are arguing which is worse between two equally culpable parties.
 
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CARST
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Re: Tariffs or sanctions against Airbus imports into the US are possible if Airbus loses at the WTO, says Boeing

Mon Feb 12, 2018 2:19 pm

Route66 wrote:
For all those who usually profess the sanctity of "world" organizations, often from Europe, is the WTO a legitimate world body, or not?


Of course it is. But that doesn't mean that bringing this case to the WTO is smart at all. The WTO now has to deal with it, no other chance and will rule in Airbus favour. Boeing will loose this like they lost the C-Series case.

Boeing these days (well since like 20 years) seems to be run by lawyers and not managers who know how to build aircraft...
 
frmrCapCadet
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Re: Tariffs or sanctions against Airbus imports into the US are possible if Airbus loses at the WTO, says Boeing

Mon Feb 12, 2018 2:23 pm

I could see the WTO essentially putting this decision on hold, or at least not into effect until after the Boeing decision comes out. Then the 'losing company' pays the difference. It looks like the case regarding Airbus subsidies will be a bit larger than the case against Boeing, remains to be seen. The few billion difference in any event maybe to a charity for the former workers who have suffered. Or some such. And some work on limiting such wrongful subsidies in the future.
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inferno
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Re: Tariffs or sanctions against Airbus imports into the US are possible if Airbus loses at the WTO, says Boeing

Mon Feb 12, 2018 2:48 pm

If Boeing starts focusing more on politics instead of building airplanes, that is the end of them.
 
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OA940
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Re: Tariffs or sanctions against Airbus imports into the US are possible if Airbus loses at the WTO, says Boeing

Mon Feb 12, 2018 2:49 pm

Boeing playing below the belt again. I mean they're just trying to ruin US-the rest of the world relations now, aren't they.
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WIederling
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Re: Tariffs or sanctions against Airbus imports into the US are possible if Airbus loses at the WTO, says Boeing

Mon Feb 12, 2018 5:13 pm

OA940 wrote:
Boeing playing below the belt again. I mean they're just trying to ruin US-the rest of the world relations now, aren't they.


Lockstep. Boeing is a (submissive?) team player here.
Murphy is an optimist
 
Varsity1
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Re: Tariffs or sanctions against Airbus imports into the US are possible if Airbus loses at the WTO, says Boeing

Mon Feb 12, 2018 5:21 pm

blueflyer wrote:
No one at Boeing really wants sanctions any more than anyone in the US government (at least up until the end of 2016) wants to nuke North Korea. What they want is the threat, and this is what this article is all about, a threat to force negotiations to avoid the ultimate outcome.

Even Boeing's lawyers know the risk with sanctions is there is no predicting how the EU will retaliate. Best case scenario, the EU does to Boeing and the US aerospace industry what the US does to the EU's. Worst case scenario, the EU goes after industries where the damages are far more one-sided, and with more lobbying power than Boeing. I can think of one or two areas the EU could target almost overnight with very little risk of legal repercussions or downside for EU businesses. Either things will de-escalate from there, and Boeing will be the loser, or we will be headed towards a full trade war...


What would that be? Tourism? BMW's?

EU has been dumping into the USA for decades. It's a rather toothless tiger at this point.
"PPRuNe will no longer allow discussions regarding Etihad Airlines, its employees, executives, agents, or other representatives. Such threads will be deleted." - ME3 thug airlines suing anyone who brings negative information public..
 
Arion640
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Re: Tariffs or sanctions against Airbus imports into the US are possible if Airbus loses at the WTO, says Boeing

Mon Feb 12, 2018 5:30 pm

Boeing are running scared is what it looks like to me. They won't have an answer to the A321LR for a while yet, the A320neo is outselling the MAX, 777X sales are slow. 787 going well though.

While Airbus has its own problems they are in a better position than Boeing.
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Revelation
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Re: Tariffs or sanctions against Airbus imports into the US are possible if Airbus loses at the WTO, says Boeing

Mon Feb 12, 2018 5:44 pm

Aesma wrote:
Boeing is heavily subsidized.
Airbus is heavily subsidized.
Embraer is heavily subsidized.
Bombardier is heavily subsidized.
COMAC is heavily subsidized.

Etc.

This has been going on since day one of aviation. Everyone knows it, that's why there were plenty of exceptions, including under WTO rules, for aircraft production.

If Boeing wants to break the status quo, there will be consequences.

Airbus's suggestion of a worldwide conference to rationalize these issues is in theory a good one, but in the MAGA/Brexit era good ideas aren't in vogue.
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ExMilitaryEng
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Re: Tariffs or sanctions against Airbus imports into the US are possible if Airbus loses at the WTO, says Boeing

Mon Feb 12, 2018 5:46 pm

ytz wrote:
I have said this more and I'll say it again. Just give Bombardier massively over-inflated military contracts. That's how you shovel money into an aerospace company. If the Government of Canada had given Bombardier $5 billion to develop a new "military" transport aircraft with the same specs as the CSeries, the legal wrangling would be very different here.
Can't fight the system. We need to learn how to exploit it.


Agree 100% with you here!

ExMilitaryEng wrote:
(4 months ago) Exactly, make a RFP for a future Maritime Patrol Aircraft with specs exactly tailored to a CS500.
FWIW, the last homegrown MPA was a Canadair designed&built CL-28 Argus. Was among the best in its time. Had about 23hrs of loitering time...


I had similar thoughts a few months ago...
Last edited by ExMilitaryEng on Mon Feb 12, 2018 5:53 pm, edited 2 times in total.
 
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Revelation
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Re: Tariffs or sanctions against Airbus imports into the US are possible if Airbus loses at the WTO, says Boeing

Mon Feb 12, 2018 5:54 pm

ytz wrote:
I have said this more and I'll say it again. Just give Bombardier massively over-inflated military contracts. That's how you shovel money into an aerospace company. If the Government of Canada had given Bombardier $5 billion to develop a new "military" transport aircraft with the same specs as the CSeries, the legal wrangling would be very different here.

You might want to run that past A and B.

Boeing was given $2B to develop KC-46A and has blown through that and written down an additional $6B to boot, with zero deliveries so far thus zero income.

The A400M's original budget was EUR 20B and Airbus has already blown through that and more:

Airbus paid $2.6 billion to cover financial penalties and slow deliveries in 2016, adding to the nearly $6.2 billion the company has paid in penalties since accepting the A400M contract in 2010.

Officials from Belgium, France, Germany Luxemborg, Spain, Turkey and the United Kingdom, as well as Europe’s procurement agency OCCAR, will meet with Airbus in attempt to hash out an agreement capping financial penalties. Airbus received a $4.3 billion bailout from the seven countries in 2010.

Ref: https://www.defensenews.com/air/2018/01 ... 00m-fines/

And then you add in Canada's "colorful" military procurement history, I don't think you'd want to go there.
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
The heart has it's beaches, it's homeland and thoughts of it's own
Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
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ExMilitaryEng
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Re: Tariffs or sanctions against Airbus imports into the US are possible if Airbus loses at the WTO, says Boeing

Mon Feb 12, 2018 6:06 pm

Revelation wrote:
Boeing was given $2B to develop KC-46A and has blown through that and written down an additional $6B to boot, with zero deliveries so far thus zero income.

Your are 100% right about those program disasters. However, it describes more recent incompetence than the general rule. (Also, it could not be the usual "open bar" contract as this RFP was closely scrutinized, with Airbus in close proximity)

Boeing historically benefited big time from military contracts that cross subsidized its commercial division (and/or reused its Gvt paid military R&D for commercial applications).
_______________________________________________________________________

FWIW (about the A400) if Airbus had accepted the original (more mature) PWC engine proposal, it would have probably escaped the bulk of its problems.
Last edited by ExMilitaryEng on Mon Feb 12, 2018 6:33 pm, edited 10 times in total.
 
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glideslope
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Re: Tariffs or sanctions against Airbus imports into the US are possible if Airbus loses at the WTO, says Boeing

Mon Feb 12, 2018 6:17 pm

downdata wrote:
The EU is not Canada, they have more than enough trade firepower to retaliate...


You do realize Germany produces almost 50% of the durable consumables used by the EU?
To know your Enemy, you must become your Enemy.” Sun Tzu
 
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SQ22
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Re: Tariffs or sanctions against Airbus imports into the US are possible if Airbus loses at the WTO, says Boeing

Mon Feb 12, 2018 6:25 pm

Please keep this thread on topic, otherwise it will be locked. This is not a general discussion about tariffs or sanctions between US and EU.
 
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par13del
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Re: Tariffs or sanctions against Airbus imports into the US are possible if Airbus loses at the WTO, says Boeing

Mon Feb 12, 2018 7:09 pm

At present the USA runs a trade deficit with all the major trading partners, including the EU, the failed trade agreement was not being negotiated 50/50 but the EU was 50+, so when we talk about looking out for fair play, we are talking about the USA consumer who will have to pay higher prices right?

The USA is a large consumer market, so large in fact that we tend to overlook the fact that it is a country, has their own industries and employees and just as other countries put in place measures to protect their industries one should expect every now and then for some American to come along and look at doing the same.
 
DCA-ROCguy
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Re: Tariffs or sanctions against Airbus imports into the US are possible if Airbus loses at the WTO, says Boeing

Mon Feb 12, 2018 7:41 pm

Boeing and their A.net fanboys would best give up while they're behind. Boeing lost, and if they try to drag Airbus into a trade war, they'll be sure to suffer, too. You've got protectionist populism on the rise on both sides of the ocean, and aviation is an industry where increasing protectionism would be especially sure to hurt all countries and manufacturers involved. Competing is the answer, but Boeing apparently doesn't want to do that.

Delta's getting their C Series, no tariffs, and Boeing can just deal with it.

Jim
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ExMilitaryEng
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Re: Tariffs or sanctions against Airbus imports into the US are possible if Airbus loses at the WTO, says Boeing

Mon Feb 12, 2018 8:05 pm

par13del wrote:
At present the USA runs a trade deficit with all the major trading partners, including the EU, the failed trade agreement was not being negotiated 50/50 but the EU was 50+, so when we talk about looking out for fair play...

FWIW, when we talk about manufactured goods + services trade with Canada, the USA actually benefit from a considerable trade surplus. However, ithe USA runs indeed a slight trade deficit when we do include natural resources (petroleum/energy) trade.

I don't believe a trade war with Canada would be very clever. Canada would just eventually shift its manufactured goods procurement toward its new (non-bullying) free trading partners (Europe and Asia). And sell them natural resources when it makes economic sense.

Now, we just need our pipelines to reach tide waters, like BC - the shortest/cheapest route, having the least environmental impact (compared to the east coast route).
 
mjoelnir
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Re: Tariffs or sanctions against Airbus imports into the US are possible if Airbus loses at the WTO, says Boeing

Wed Feb 14, 2018 11:27 am

https://leehamnews.com/2018/02/14/next- ... more-26283

There seem to be two cases winding through the appeal process at the WTO. One the above mentioned USA case against Airbus and one EU against Boeing. In both cases the guilty verdict is appealed.

I have no idea why Boeing is so optimistic as the tax breaks Boeing received seem also be deemed illegal. So I assume we either see a compromise between the USA and EU. Or trade war with mutual assured destruction of free trade.

Airbus should have the slight advantage, as they produce frames in The USA
 
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EPA001
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Re: Tariffs or sanctions against Airbus imports into the US are possible if Airbus loses at the WTO, says Boeing

Wed Feb 14, 2018 2:18 pm

B777LRF wrote:
You are absolutely right, but I've never claimed Airbus didn't receive subsidies; repayable or low interest it is still their only means of bringing a new product to market with a chance of profitability. But here's the thing, I don't think Boeing are innocent either. And that's what makes this whole farce idiotic; Boeing lodged a complaint first, and might very well win it. And some time after that, it's just as likely Airbus will win their claim. Which is the epitome of a pointless p1ssing match, with the end result everyone ends up wet and smelly.


The highlighted sentence is of course all wrong. RLI has cost Airbus at present much, much more than getting the finances on the private market. Especially due to the mega-succes of the A320-series and the A330-series. For the A350 they could easily have funded the whole program without RLI. RLI always has to be repaid, no matter the success or lack of success for the specific airliner program. For new programs it could be argued to be more profitable with 100% commercial loans, especially with today's low interest rates.

Overall in the two cases Airbus has won a lot more than Boeing, and in a few months, when both appeals will have been decided, I am quite confident Airbus will have won a lot more than Boeing did.

I do agree with you that this is a more or less pointless pissing match, and beside the lawyers all involved will indeed be wet and smelly.
 
WIederling
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Re: Tariffs or sanctions against Airbus imports into the US are possible if Airbus loses at the WTO, says Boeing

Wed Feb 14, 2018 2:27 pm

"RLI has cost Airbus at present much, much more than getting the finances on the private market."

That is "blindered" out. RLI moneys received and the conditions are "cut free" of their environment
and used for litigation.
Next misdirection is showing as illegal advantage the full amount and not the delta in interest.

They are coming to get you , Lawyers, for to go on the ocean floor , haha!
Murphy is an optimist
 
strfyr51
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Re: Tariffs or sanctions against Airbus imports into the US are possible if Airbus loses at the WTO, says Boeing

Tue May 15, 2018 7:16 pm

downdata wrote:
The EU is not Canada, they have more than enough trade firepower to retaliate...

And do What Exactly?? Not fly to the USA?
 
queb
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Re: Tariffs or sanctions against Airbus imports into the US are possible if Airbus loses at the WTO, says Boeing

Tue May 15, 2018 11:08 pm

strfyr51 wrote:
downdata wrote:
The EU is not Canada, they have more than enough trade firepower to retaliate...

And do What Exactly?? Not fly to the USA?


Like applying tariffs on 787 sold to European airlines
 
bob75013
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Re: Tariffs or sanctions against Airbus imports into the US are possible if Airbus loses at the WTO, says Boeing

Tue May 15, 2018 11:20 pm

[url]

[/url]
queb wrote:
strfyr51 wrote:
downdata wrote:
The EU is not Canada, they have more than enough trade firepower to retaliate...

And do What Exactly?? Not fly to the USA?


Like applying tariffs on 787 sold to European airlines


The's a bit of a difference between applying tariffs because the WTO says you were damaged and applying tariffs in a game of tit for tat.

You looking for another WTO loss?

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