evanb
Posts: 308
Joined: Thu Jan 07, 2016 3:26 pm

Re: What's happening with South African Airways?

Wed Feb 14, 2018 3:40 pm

jfk777 wrote:
Things changed in the world but Airbus is not lways the better solution, for SAA a 250 seat long haul plane is better then a 300 seater. A 787-9 being smaller then an A350-900 would be better for SAA on their ultra long haul routes. SAA long hauls move 200 passengers from 5,000 to 8,000 miles, its doesn't need bigger planes.


The question is how the B787-9 performs at 5,500ft. Considering a mission like JNB-JFK at 6,925nm and JNB-HKG at 5,763nm the B789 might not be great with it's smaller wing and thrust compared to the A359. If the A343 and B77W have challenges on JNB-HKG in the summer, then the B787-9 has no chance. The A359 on the other hand has it's very big wing to compensate.
 
scotron11
Posts: 1418
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Re: What's happening with South African Airways?

Wed Feb 14, 2018 3:43 pm

AFAIK no one operates the B787-9 out of JNB. Correct me if im wrong
 
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cv990Coronado
Posts: 287
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Re: What's happening with South African Airways?

Wed Feb 14, 2018 3:53 pm

scotron11 wrote:
AFAIK no one operates the B787-9 out of JNB. Correct me if im wrong


VS do JNBLHR, I flew on it in November and it was a very long take off run. I'm not a nervous flyer but I was looking outside towards the end and I don't think there was to much runway left.
QR use them somedays JNBDOH I don't think anyone else does at present. I think maybe ET did but they now use an A359 for the daytime flight and a 738 for the evening departure for JNBADD.
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77west
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Re: What's happening with South African Airways?

Wed Feb 14, 2018 8:32 pm

jfk777 wrote:
cv990Coronado wrote:
evanb wrote:

As long as the A359/A35K has a hot and high advantage over the B787 then this will be SAA's preference.

Exactly, the larger wing helps a lot here.



Firstly, unless the A321LR has massively improved hot and high performance over the ceo then it's a non-starter. Secondly, the challenge is that the routes where this idea might have promise, maybe JNB-LOS or JNB-ACC-ABJ, there is little benefit to be gained by upping frequency. The current departure schedules offer all the necessary domestic and regional connecting options. If higher frequency will increase unit cost but not increase yield then it'll be a poor move.

I agree, plus the fact that I think the cargo capacity is often needed which the A321LR would certainly lack.



Assuming that the A359/A35K is the backbone of the fleet, what routes would they utilize B777-9 on? I'm not sure it would be a big enough fleet to justify. They probably need at least 10x B777-8/9 to make it work. 2x daily LHR, 1x daily FRA ... where else?


With SAA's crew and maintenance so geared for Airbus products these days, a small fleet of Boeing's makes no sense. In fact with all the others things needing to fixed why introduce a completely different aircraft when you can obtain ones from Airbus which have a large degree of commonality.
I certainly miss the many good memories of flying in SAA's 747's & SPs but that was a different time. Boeing was the best and the longest ranged product available, things have changed in the world and at SAA.




Things changed in the world but Airbus is not lways the better solution, for SAA a 250 seat long haul plane is better then a 300 seater. A 787-9 being smaller then an A350-900 would be better for SAA on their ultra long haul routes. SAA long hauls move 200 passengers from 5,000 to 8,000 miles, its doesn't need bigger planes.


The 787-9 is not that much smaller than the A359 though. And the commonality of being able to introduce the A35K for the beefier routes is not to be forgotten.. As well as the hot/high advantage of the A350.
77West - AW109S - BE90 - JS31 - B1900 - Q300 - ATR72 - DC9-30 - MD80 - B733 - A320 - B738 - A300-B4 - B773 - B77W
 
Egerton
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Re: What's happening with South African Airways?

Wed Feb 14, 2018 9:27 pm

The President of the Republic of South Africa has just formally resigned. He will be replaced by another ANC person. Either this is salvation for the nation, or more of the same? Your guess is as good as mine.
 
evanb
Posts: 308
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Re: What's happening with South African Airways?

Wed Feb 14, 2018 11:31 pm

cv990Coronado wrote:
scotron11 wrote:
AFAIK no one operates the B787-9 out of JNB. Correct me if im wrong


VS do JNBLHR, I flew on it in November and it was a very long take off run. I'm not a nervous flyer but I was looking outside towards the end and I don't think there was to much runway left.
QR use them somedays JNBDOH I don't think anyone else does at present. I think maybe ET did but they now use an A359 for the daytime flight and a 738 for the evening departure for JNBADD.


JNB-ADD 2187nm
JNB-LHR 4884nm
JNB-DOH 3358nm

And now ...

JNB-JFK 6925nm
JNB-HKG 5763nm
 
LC1002368
Posts: 4
Joined: Tue Mar 27, 2012 11:40 pm

Re: What's happening with South African Airways?

Thu Feb 15, 2018 12:30 am

What happened to their CPT hub? I heard they used to fly long haul out of there and now, gone. Is it true they sold some slots for cash to BA on the LHRCPT segment? Sorry for the little knowledge I have, I was born in the 90s. All I remember before 2010 is the "jetsgosucks.ca" website.

As for their JNBLHR leg, I heard from a FRA manager loads aren't as good as your typical FRA and MUC routes since the UK isn't as "generous" on TWOV rules. This then affects their feed in and out of LHR.
Gate lice: the worst bacteria to ever swim in a zone 5 passenger's mind.
 
speedbird52
Posts: 238
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Re: What's happening with South African Airways?

Thu Feb 15, 2018 12:54 am

jfk777 wrote:
[ BA rarely flies in a 744 after one taxied by accident into building at night about three years ago.

I doubt that is the reason BA don't fly the 744 in
"I have control" Three Words That Could Have Saved Lives.
 
Cunard
Posts: 1329
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Re: What's happening with South African Airways?

Thu Feb 15, 2018 1:42 am

speedbird52 wrote:
jfk777 wrote:
[ BA rarely flies in a 744 after one taxied by accident into building at night about three years ago.

I doubt that is the reason BA don't fly the 744 in


Yeah I thought that was a weird reply as well considering that British Airways have flown the Boeing 747 into Cape Town for decades with no prior incident!

JFK777 I take it that your aware of the facts and events leading upto that particular incident!
 
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Spiderguy252
Posts: 839
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Re: What's happening with South African Airways?

Thu Feb 15, 2018 5:50 am

Nobody has mentioned the A330-900.

If 200-odd folks are SA's primary long haul clientele on any given route, what about that aircraft? How does the 332 do at present out of JNB?
Vahroone
 
T54A
Posts: 75
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Re: What's happening with South African Airways?

Thu Feb 15, 2018 10:10 am

Spiderguy252 wrote:
Nobody has mentioned the A330-900.

If 200-odd folks are SA's primary long haul clientele on any given route, what about that aircraft? How does the 332 do at present out of JNB?


The A332 and A333 are both limited to between 225t and 230t out of JNB. This will depend on temp and which runway is in use. This is a drop from a MTOW of 238t for the A332 and 242t for the A333. As someone who operates both types out of JNB, I very seldom see a RTOW of more than 230t. Having said that, SAA's A332's are configured with only 222 seats, so with 230t you can easily do a JNB-LHR (11h30min) with a full load.
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evanb
Posts: 308
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Re: What's happening with South African Airways?

Thu Feb 15, 2018 2:25 pm

LC1002368 wrote:
What happened to their CPT hub? I heard they used to fly long haul out of there and now, gone. Is it true they sold some slots for cash to BA on the LHRCPT segment? Sorry for the little knowledge I have, I was born in the 90s. All I remember before 2010 is the "jetsgosucks.ca" website.


I'm not sure CPT was ever really a hub. They certainly had a lot more flights to CPT a decade ago but it wasn't really a hub. The 3rd daily LHR slot pair that SAA used for CPT-LHR were sold to Singapore Airlines a few years ago.

LC1002368 wrote:
As for their JNBLHR leg, I heard from a FRA manager loads aren't as good as your typical FRA and MUC routes since the UK isn't as "generous" on TWOV rules. This then affects their feed in and out of LHR.


Indeed, the TWOV rules are much more lenient in Shengen than the UK, which is one of the reasons that FRA and MUC have become SAA's major international hubs, but first and foremost, it's because they the biggest Star Alliance hubs in Europe.
 
evanb
Posts: 308
Joined: Thu Jan 07, 2016 3:26 pm

Re: What's happening with South African Airways?

Thu Feb 15, 2018 2:34 pm

T54A wrote:
The A332 and A333 are both limited to between 225t and 230t out of JNB. This will depend on temp and which runway is in use. This is a drop from a MTOW of 238t for the A332 and 242t for the A333. As someone who operates both types out of JNB, I very seldom see a RTOW of more than 230t. Having said that, SAA's A332's are configured with only 222 seats, so with 230t you can easily do a JNB-LHR (11h30min) with a full load.


At 20 degrees, an A343 takes a 15t penalty at JNB (260t versus MTOW of 275t), so that penalty on a A332 or A333 is very acceptable.
 
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cv990Coronado
Posts: 287
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Re: What's happening with South African Airways?

Fri Feb 16, 2018 8:28 am

LC1002368 wrote:
What happened to their CPT hub? I heard they used to fly long haul out of there and now, gone. Is it true they sold some slots for cash to BA on the LHRCPT segment? Sorry for the little knowledge I have, I was born in the 90s. All I remember before 2010 is the "jetsgosucks.ca" website.

As for their JNBLHR leg, I heard from a FRA manager loads aren't as good as your typical FRA and MUC routes since the UK isn't as "generous" on TWOV rules. This then affects their feed in and out of LHR.


The SAA LHR slot for the CPT flight was sold to SQ as was mentioned, at least this time they are going to lease out the 2nd JNB slot. LHR slots are assets appricating ones in light of the constant LHR 3rd runway indecision.

There never was a CPT hub, SAA had a flight to FRA from CPT for a while and the JNBMIA flight went via CPT for mainly technical reasons. There were also CPTDURMRU flights In one of SAA's reorganisational moves everything was centred back to JNB which might well have made sense then. But, things could be different now regarding CPT. Firstly CPT has grown 50% in the last 10 years, more companies have moved here and the number of very affluent people has increased. Tourism has come out of the old apartheid days and increased enormously, Cape Town is at the top of the list. This plus the availability of smaller long-haul aircraft could change this and perhaps make a case for a small CPT SAA base.
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enzo011
Posts: 1541
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Re: What's happening with South African Airways?

Fri Feb 16, 2018 12:40 pm

Egerton wrote:
The President of the Republic of South Africa has just formally resigned. He will be replaced by another ANC person. Either this is salvation for the nation, or more of the same? Your guess is as good as mine.



The new president is a wealthy business man. I hope his talk about fighting corruption is more than just words as this would help the country as a whole to recovery and would help lift all other businesses and that would help SAA as well. I hope all the crony appointments will stop with not just SAA but the other enterprises like the electricity utility and the state broadcaster. I guess we will find out in the next few days/weeks on what could be expected when he starts announcing a new cabinet and appointments for the state run enterprises.

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