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TVNWZ
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Re: 'Mob' breaks out at Des Moines International Airport after 14-hour delay

Tue Feb 13, 2018 2:20 am

It’s not like having to cancel over 200 flights on a Sunday because you didn’t have enough glycol to De-ice the planes. But that would never happen to a traditional airline, would it?
 
IPFreely
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Re: 'Mob' breaks out at Des Moines International Airport after 14-hour delay

Tue Feb 13, 2018 2:31 am

TVNWZ wrote:
It’s not like having to cancel over 200 flights on a Sunday because you didn’t have enough glycol to De-ice the planes. But that would never happen to a traditional airline, would it?


Seems unlikely. But it also seems unlikely that a traditional airline would have a 3 day global shutdown because their crew scheduling software crashed, too.
 
flydude380
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Re: 'Mob' breaks out at Des Moines International Airport after 14-hour delay

Tue Feb 13, 2018 1:09 pm

As a ground agent, there are times like this where I wish airline ops and head office would cancel the flight, instead of keeping passengers as well as ground staff waiting for a miracle. There are times like this when passengers would rather have the flight cancelled and I would agree with them!
 
xjetflyer2001
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Re: 'Mob' breaks out at Des Moines International Airport after 14-hour delay

Tue Feb 13, 2018 5:10 pm

RamblinMan wrote:
joeljack wrote:
Yes, this happened to me on United 3 weeks ago, DEN-OMA. Flight was delayed 15 hours until the next day. The difference is, I found out about delay about 10 minutes after scheduled departure time. I was able to sprint across airport and buy a ticket on Southwest for a flight leaving in 30 minutes.


When I say this exact same thing has happened on United, I mean the EXACT same thing...delayed from 1900 until about 1400 the next day, all in 30-minute to 2 hour increments except for around 2200 when we were told to come back the next morning only to have the delays start all over again. No clear explanations given, no refunds offered, no meal or hotel vouchers. It was a 500 mile trip, had they told us upfront how long it would take I would have just driven.


I'm not sure what you think that employees at an airline can give you exact time and delay predictions? When gate agents are given information about a flight it is after at least 4 other people have heard about it first and those people do not always communicate that information to the gate agents giving information to the customers wanting to take said flight. Also in the course of a maintenance issue, it is notoriously difficult to get information out of the maintenance personnel. Gate agents have to call one person, who then calls another person, who then calls the maintenance guys to attempt to get the correct information out of those maintenance guys, usually the maintenance guys will give a vague time of completion such as 30 min to an hour and a half, that's if they give any estimated time at all, then the person who called the maintenance guy for information then will call someone else, who will then call someone else to maybe see if they have a spare aircraft around that can be used, then that person will have to call someone else who will call someone else to say yes or no about the spare aircraft, then if they have a spare aircraft it is the process of changing that aircrafts travel plans and then replacing the travel plans of those customers who are now out an aircraft with another aircraft, and by the time all of that gets done you have to make sure your flight crew still has duty time left and then the process starts all over again and then the agents at the gate are told what's going on and those agents will issue the best information they have at hand which isn't always correct due to said process and changes and doesn't always come quickly.

Every airline does this, no one wants to delay passengers and airlines and their employees surely do not set out to lie to the passengers about whats going on. The airline agents want these flights fixed and ontime and moving just as much if not more than the customer does.

A fix is not just black and white, try and remember that the next time you get upset about a delay and your not getting information fast enough.

Also refunds are not just going to be offerred by the airline, you have to request it, and it also will not be done at the airport, you have to do it online in most cases. Then it depens on your ticket type, the type of delay, and other factors that agents at the airport do not have the time to look through as they are dealing in most cases with other flights or in the case of smaller stations are contract agents and do not have the authority to issue those refunds.
 
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usdcaguy
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Re: 'Mob' breaks out at Des Moines International Airport after 14-hour delay

Tue Feb 13, 2018 5:23 pm

usflyer msp wrote:
kcrwflyer wrote:
AAvgeek744 wrote:
^^^ This is why I do not want to see G4 come into BNA as a lot of people here seem to want.


That's very thoughtful of you to not want an airline to come in that allows an entire segment of people to travel that likely otherwise cannot afford to fly anywhere. How about you just don't fly them if they show up.


They still can't afford to fly anywhere. The ULCC's often fly around a class of people that really should be staying at home.
This is why we so often see disturbances at NK, F9 and G4 locations. If anything goes wrong these people are too poor to pay for extra night in a hotel, or a few extra meals, or to miss a few hours of work much less make alternative arrangements to travel home - thus they lash out (remember the NK FLL riot last year!!!).
A staycation is much more in order for many of these people. It really can become a public safety issue.


Who says who can travel? And for what reason? Everyone has the right to travel as they are able. Sometimes this ability isn’t great, but they still deserve to travel within their means. The carriers promise to carry them to their destination. If they screw up by having a broken plane, they need to remedy the situation. It is NOT the passengers’ fault if the plane is broken.
 
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william
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Re: 'Mob' breaks out at Des Moines International Airport after 14-hour delay

Tue Feb 13, 2018 5:38 pm

usflyer msp wrote:
kcrwflyer wrote:
AAvgeek744 wrote:
^^^ This is why I do not want to see G4 come into BNA as a lot of people here seem to want.


That's very thoughtful of you to not want an airline to come in that allows an entire segment of people to travel that likely otherwise cannot afford to fly anywhere. How about you just don't fly them if they show up.


They still can't afford to fly anywhere. The ULCC's often fly around a class of people that really should be staying at home.
This is why we so often see disturbances at NK, F9 and G4 locations. If anything goes wrong these people are too poor to pay for extra night in a hotel, or a few extra meals, or to miss a few hours of work much less make alternative arrangements to travel home - thus they lash out (remember the NK FLL riot last year!!!).
A staycation is much more in order for many of these people. It really can become a public safety issue.


Enough posters have responded to you and with more witty replies than I. With that stated, when I flew Allegiant last year from AUS-SFB it was because of their low walk up fares. When one has to travel to a funeral, "stayca" is not an option. Going to the South terminal at AUS was a nice oasis to the crowded main terminal (same for SFB) and my biggest shock looking around was the demographic. The same demographic one would find at a SWA, DL,AA or UA gate. Yes there a couple of business flyers amid the group.Young, old, families, singles, rich and poor. After completing my nonstop flight in less than three hours (arrived early) on an "old" MadDog, getting my luggage ten minutes after landing at SFB. At SFB waiting for to be picked up by family thinking,"Why am I suppose to hate flying Allegiant again?"

One day I will fly Spirit and probably will be thinking the same, "whats all the fuss?"
 
freakyrat
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Re: 'Mob' breaks out at Des Moines International Airport after 14-hour delay

Tue Feb 13, 2018 5:41 pm

TVNWZ wrote:
It’s not like having to cancel over 200 flights on a Sunday because you didn’t have enough glycol to De-ice the planes. But that would never happen to a traditional airline, would it?


Happened to me at DFW with F9. The airport ran out of the proper deicing fluid and the inbound aircraft from DEN turned around. I was going skiing at Breck on this trip. I followed Frontier’s email procedures and was issued a refund for the DFW leg and was able to fly on American the next day and used my original Frontier ticket and original flight home.
 
freakyrat
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Re: 'Mob' breaks out at Des Moines International Airport after 14-hour delay

Tue Feb 13, 2018 5:58 pm

Used to be a weekly occurrence at DFW with Spirit.

Now I would like to address this particular issue with Allegiant. The aircraft involved was an Airbus A319. Airbus aircraft have onboard diagnostics much like your automobile. The problem comes up on what they call the ECAM display and maintenance can pull it up on tape. Most of the ground crews at airports served by these ULCC are contract workers and IMHO do not know how to handle IROP operations like this. IMHO these ground workers should not hold people at the airport like this. The supervisor on duty should be informed by the flight crew what is going on, flight crew calls dispatch, dispatch finds an aircraft and crew and dispatches it to DSM. This aircraft brings maintenance and spare parts to fix the broken aircraft. Meanwhile the gate agents inform the passengers and in the case of an extensive delay issue refunds and tell them when to return to the airport. This avoids the chaos from happening. I had the same thing happen to me at DFW flying Spirit several years ago to ORD. I didn’t really have to go. The new contracted gate agents didn’t know how to handle the situation and kept everyone in the gate area from 3PM till 1AM before a supervisor came in an cancelled the flight. Totally unnecessary as it was an identical Airbus aircraft. I took a 400 some dollar refund and went home.
 
freakyrat
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Re: 'Mob' breaks out at Des Moines International Airport after 14-hour delay

Tue Feb 13, 2018 6:10 pm

Allegiant had an incident about a month ago at SBN with their flight to Punta Gorda. This was N250NV their brand spanking new Airbus A320. Aircraft was slightly damaged when a deicing truck slid on the ramp. According to a friend of mine who is a supervisor at South Bend for another carrier, he was amazed how the South Bend Allegiant crew along with Allegiant ops obtained an MD83 aircraft and crew from close by Peoria, IL and got the passengers on their way with about a two hour delay. Allegiant’s mechanics inspected the AIrbus aircraft the next day and corrected the problem, signed it off and the crew flew it back to PGD and the aircraft was back in service and took a slightly delayed flights passengers on their way about an hour after arriving back home.
 
gzm
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Re: 'Mob' breaks out at Des Moines International Airport after 14-hour delay

Tue Feb 13, 2018 6:19 pm

kjeld0d wrote:
AirbusMDCFAN wrote:
Des Moines International Airport


Adding to this discussion, Des Moines is French for "The Moines".

Des Moines means "of the Monks"
Ten years ago I was gate agent at Olympic airlines and late one evening I was advised by my supervisor that a flight of Islandsflug, I think,was delayed about 14 hours at the satellite terminal and finally an aircraft of Pegasus airlines was hired to operate the flight. So off I went with a colleague of mine and we were relieved to find out that the passengers were so tired and resigned to their fate that had no power left to complain.In fact,when I had to go inside the cabin to check about a passenger, some had already fallen asleep. Cool.
 
Flaps
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Re: 'Mob' breaks out at Des Moines International Airport after 14-hour delay

Tue Feb 13, 2018 6:36 pm

freakyrat wrote:
Used to be a weekly occurrence at DFW with Spirit.

Now I would like to address this particular issue with Allegiant. The aircraft involved was an Airbus A319. Airbus aircraft have onboard diagnostics much like your automobile. The problem comes up on what they call the ECAM display and maintenance can pull it up on tape. Most of the ground crews at airports served by these ULCC are contract workers and IMHO do not know how to handle IROP operations like this. IMHO these ground workers should not hold people at the airport like this. The supervisor on duty should be informed by the flight crew what is going on, flight crew calls dispatch, dispatch finds an aircraft and crew and dispatches it to DSM. This aircraft brings maintenance and spare parts to fix the broken aircraft. Meanwhile the gate agents inform the passengers and in the case of an extensive delay issue refunds and tell them when to return to the airport. This avoids the chaos from happening. I had the same thing happen to me at DFW flying Spirit several years ago to ORD. I didn’t really have to go. The new contracted gate agents didn’t know how to handle the situation and kept everyone in the gate area from 3PM till 1AM before a supervisor came in an cancelled the flight. Totally unnecessary as it was an identical Airbus aircraft. I took a 400 some dollar refund and went home.


Wow....You really have no clue as to how things work. Virtually all of your assumptions are dead wrong.

    The airline makes the calls/decisions and provides the information to the contractor. The ground staff has NO say in this whatsoever.
    The crew may or may not even be in the airport - definitely not if they will be timing out. Even if they are, they often aren't privy to much of the process either.
    Parts may or may not be available on hand or where the replacement aircraft is coming from.
    An aircraft bringing mechanics and parts? Im sorry but that is hilarious.
    The replacement aircraft could be coming from anywhere in the system and the crew bringing it may or may not have duty time left to pick up the flight.
    Oftentimes crew and the aircraft come from different places. The airline grabs/puts together what they have available or can put together.
    Gate agents are not authorized to give any refunds. That is authorized only by the airline itself.

    Your analysis of the situation comes straight out of a fairy tail.

    G4 tries desperately to cover flights when the shit hits the fan and they very rarely cancel. Sometimes they try too hard and try to pull a hail mary in a desperate attempt to move a flight (I suspect same in this case). Worst case is the flight gets pushed back a day. G4 has improved dramatically in this area over the past year. They are nothing at all like they used to be when the horror stories were frequent. That said nothing is ever perfect and as with any airline things like this will still happen from time to time.
     
    stlgph
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    Re: 'Mob' breaks out at Des Moines International Airport after 14-hour delay

    Tue Feb 13, 2018 6:56 pm

    Ah yes, it's an airline's fault that someone can't be responsible for their own actions, poor, rich, or otherwise. Man, I bet you're a hit at the family reunions.
    if assumptions could fly, airliners.net would be the world's busiest airport
     
    alasizon
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    Re: 'Mob' breaks out at Des Moines International Airport after 14-hour delay

    Tue Feb 13, 2018 7:18 pm

    Flaps wrote:
    Wow....You really have no clue as to how things work. Virtually all of your assumptions are dead wrong.
    • The airline makes the calls/decisions and provides the information to the contractor. The ground staff has NO say in this whatsoever.
    • An aircraft bringing mechanics and parts? Im sorry but that is hilarious.
    • Gate agents are not authorized to give any refunds. That is authorized only by the airline itself.

    Your analysis isn't exactly correct either.

    1) Ground staff does have limited say in what happens and particularly in hub locations (of which DSM isn't), there are personnel that do have some say over what does and doesn't happen.
    2) Aircraft bring in mechanics and parts all the time, especially hub to outstation flights where the part is coming from the hub and the OOS aircraft requires a mechanic from the carrier as opposed to a contracted mechanic with limited knowledge of the aircraft's subsystem.
    3)There is a refund policy for every airline that gate agents, both directly employed and contractors follow. Whether or not the policy allows for a refund at the particular stage is a different story.
    Manager on Duty & Tower Planner
     
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    SumChristianus
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    Re: 'Mob' breaks out at Des Moines International Airport after 14-hour delay

    Tue Feb 13, 2018 7:32 pm

    I do feel sorry for those delayed, but at least the flight wasn't cancelled, some might not have gotten out for days/weeks, with G4s average load factor schedule being as it is.
    Civility in overall society has decreased, I don't think its a function of low fares simply enabling more fly. If so, then where are the riots on Indigo or Lion Air or Air Asia? Misrepresentation or delays create angst, but if you have a complaint, make it civilly to the proper authorities through the proper process.
    A lot of society now seems to think in a "act on your emotions first", think later manner. I'm not blaming anyone in particular, but this incident illustrates overall problems in society; I don't think it has much to do with who the passengers were individually
    A Traddie wannaby---UA DL NW AA (coming soon)
     
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    falstaff
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    Re: 'Mob' breaks out at Des Moines International Airport after 14-hour delay

    Tue Feb 13, 2018 8:05 pm

    geologyrocks wrote:
    How do you even know they can’t afford a hotel but are probably more upset that they spent their entire day at an airport, especially at an airport like Des Moines?

    I doubt there are many (if any) connections going on at DSM. I would bet that nearly everyone flying on that plane lived in the Des Monies area. They could have gone home if they knew they were sticking around.

    jetblueguy22 wrote:
    . G4 may be a vacation package airline, but it doesn't mean that is the only people who fly them.


    I have flown G4 because they flew to the airport where I wanted to be (PIE) and their schedule was convenient. I usually fly DL out of DTW, but because I was going to PIE and had no luggage or carry on bag I figured G4 was good for me. I have several friends who fly G4 out of TOL to PGD, because it is convenient for them too. They most certainly could afford to fly another carrier.

    G4 flies out of a lot of places with little or no service to places many people like to go on vacation. Many people don't like making connections and if that means G4 getting them there non stop or the network carriers getting them there in two or three stops most people would choose G4. Just because people don't live near a place the network carriers fly, or multiple connections are needed to get anywhere doesn't mean they are poor. The people I have seen on G4 out of TOL don't look any different than the people I see at DTW flying DL or WN.
    My mug slaketh over on Falstaff N503
     
    jbmitt
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    Re: 'Mob' breaks out at Des Moines International Airport after 14-hour delay

    Tue Feb 13, 2018 8:12 pm

    It looked the plane had been towed over by the Endeavor Air hangar and was undergoing an engine change or major work. There was a temporary tent around it.

    Speaking of Allegiant, it looks like they also had ground damage to an MD-80 in BIL that could be severe enough for them to patch and ferry to the boneyard.
     
    bennett123
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    Re: 'Mob' breaks out at Des Moines International Airport after 14-hour delay

    Tue Feb 13, 2018 8:24 pm

    Seems that part of the problem is the age old one of keeping customers informed.

    Also 14 hours is a hell of a long time.
     
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    kgaiflyer
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    Re: 'Mob' breaks out at Des Moines International Airport after 14-hour delay

    Tue Feb 13, 2018 9:27 pm

    9w748capt wrote:
    evanbu wrote:
    You get what you pay for...


    Yup. The ULCCs are great ... until they're not.


    They're just coming to BWI with the other LCCs

    But Southwest and Spirit - BWI's biggest tenants - don't seem worried.

    http://www.baltimoresun.com/business/bs ... story.html
     
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    atcsundevil
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    Re: 'Mob' breaks out at Des Moines International Airport after 14-hour delay

    Wed Feb 14, 2018 1:15 am

    There have been some off-topic comments aimed at specific users in this thread. Please be sure to respect other users when posting — there's no need for insults.

    ✈️ atcsundevil
     
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    AirlineCritic
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    Re: 'Mob' breaks out at Des Moines International Airport after 14-hour delay

    Wed Feb 14, 2018 5:23 pm

    Sadly, the airlines are simply doing what benefits them, screw the passengers. All airlines do this, and there aren't too many regulations around to curb their behaviour. Basically, if you honestly would tell the customers that the plane isn't going to leave in the next hour or that it might be cancelled altogether, most customers would be unhappy but make their alternative arrangements. But if you drag on and make hourly delay increases, you fool them into believing the plane might leave soon. In the end, other flights have gone or the whole thing is pointless and they stick to the bitter end. And the plane leaves or doesn't. But, the airline won't send 100 people to other airlines if they have even some hope of possibly flying 14 hours later. Because that way they only need to offer a 100$ compensation or even just a silly drink or meal ticket, but they can hold on to the original ticket prices.

    And yes, 100$ might in some cases be more than ticket prices, but in a lot of cases it is not. I think getting 100$ is very rare indeed. If you get any dollar amount it is a voucher on that airline, and not as valuable as real money. Or you get very little. I just got a maybe 3$ worth soft drink coupon on Aeroflot when their 500$ flights were 12 hours delayed.

    Same with luggage issues. Check in luggage, you end up paying lots (often 50-100$) of mandatory fee that the airline sets. If they lose that piece of luggage, they give you nothing back, or try to weasel their way out of any compensation, and even if they provide some, it is measly amount that in no way compensates for hundreds or thousands of dollars of clothing for instance that you may actually need in the destination for the trip that you paid. And they set the price on that, too, not you.

    It is frankly time for some decent consumer rights in airline service.

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