gunnerman
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Ryanair has best passenger load factor of 96%

Tue Feb 13, 2018 7:37 pm

Figures from IATA show that Ryanair has the best load factor, beating Europe's other big low-cost carrier EasyJet (92.1%). Selected other airlines:

Delta (85.6%)
Singapore (84.4%)
Southwest (83.6%)
American (82.6%)
Lufthansa (81.6%)
British Airways (81.2%)
Emirates (77.2%)

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/travel/travel-truths/airlines-by-average-load-factor/
 
jubguy3
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Re: Ryanair has best passenger load factor of 96%

Tue Feb 13, 2018 7:45 pm

This is proof that the 787-10 will be good to Emirates. I am still surprised they have stuck with such large aircraft for so long considering they have a lower load factor. Reducing size on some routes should help increase load factor.
 
gunnerman
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Re: Ryanair has best passenger load factor of 96%

Tue Feb 13, 2018 8:04 pm

EK had 332s, either 278-seat (2-class) or 237-seat (3-class), but they were all disposed of together with the 340s by November 2016.
 
Arion640
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Re: Ryanair has best passenger load factor of 96%

Tue Feb 13, 2018 8:09 pm

jubguy3 wrote:
This is proof that the 787-10 will be good to Emirates. I am still surprised they have stuck with such large aircraft for so long considering they have a lower load factor. Reducing size on some routes should help increase load factor.


77% isn't that bad at all. A few 787's hanging around will bring that up while still flying a large amount of VLAs.
319 320 321 333 346 359 388 733 738 744 752 753 763 772 77E 773 77W 788 789 E145 E175 E195 RJ85 F70 DH8C DH8D AT75.

Concorde - a great British aircraft.
 
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DWC
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Re: Ryanair has best passenger load factor of 96%

Tue Feb 13, 2018 9:36 pm

gunnerman wrote:
Figures from IATA show that Ryanair has the best load factor, beating Europe's other big low-cost carrier EasyJet (92.1%). Selected other airlines:
Singapore (84.4%)
Emirates (77.2%)

Does anyone see a difference between gobbling 92.1% of a tomato & labour to finish 77.2-84.4% of a giant halloween pumpkin ??

NBs & WBs have different economics & economies of scale, WB-only operators SQ & EK would never trade their % with FR's.

People never learn : % are deceitful & need to be compounded by other indicators.

That said, FR's figures are remarkable by any stantard, not just that one.
 
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JetBuddy
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Re: Ryanair has best passenger load factor of 96%

Tue Feb 13, 2018 9:51 pm

I don't think a 96% load factor is something worth striving for. Calculations I've seen elsewhere suggests the sweet spot is around 85%. If your load factors are near 100%, you should increase the prices of tickets until it drops to around 85%. That's where you make the most money.

Doing so means each pax gives more revenue. It means lower weight so you burn less fuel. And Ryanair does not have a hub and spoke model where feeding the maximum amount of pax gives you a benefit down the line.

That being said, Ryanair is an oddball. They make money selling lottery tickets and other items onboard, and charge extra for everything, so they might benefit from a slightly higher loadfactor than 85%.
 
cedarjet
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Re: Ryanair has best passenger load factor of 96%

Tue Feb 13, 2018 10:13 pm

Interesting argument about 85% being better than (say) 98%. I’m not sure, I get the importance of yield but fact is empty seats is money left on the table. (Fuel burn argument is spurious, if the added revenue doesn’t cover the fuel burn per seat you’re really in trouble.) I would think every penny of revenue counts, period.
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Samrnpage
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Re: Ryanair has best passenger load factor of 96%

Tue Feb 13, 2018 10:25 pm

Ryanair, people love to hate them, but they know what they are doing. I often see people going "pfftt Ryanair did this, I am never flying them again". Their ticket prices are so low, that if one person doesnt fly with them, another will take their space.
 
32andBelow
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Re: Ryanair has best passenger load factor of 96%

Tue Feb 13, 2018 10:48 pm

Absolute fake news that any airline would take 85 over 98. Especially Ryan air which makes most their money on ancillaries.
 
Antarius
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Re: Ryanair has best passenger load factor of 96%

Tue Feb 13, 2018 11:09 pm

cedarjet wrote:
Interesting argument about 85% being better than (say) 98%. I’m not sure, I get the importance of yield but fact is empty seats is money left on the table. (Fuel burn argument is spurious, if the added revenue doesn’t cover the fuel burn per seat you’re really in trouble.) I would think every penny of revenue counts, period.


true. But imagine you sell every single seat (100% LF) at USD 100. Your competitor sells 60% of theirs at USD 200. Who's ahead? For example, AA/BA may fly a 777 between JFK and LHR with terrible loads overall - but it is full up front. Makes the flight worth operating.

High LF is a good thing, and for an airline like FR, great. But it isn't the only metric that matters. If you aren't an LCC and your LF is 100%, you probably could raise prices some, lose a few customers and make more money.
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Antarius
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Re: Ryanair has best passenger load factor of 96%

Tue Feb 13, 2018 11:11 pm

Samrnpage wrote:
Ryanair, people love to hate them, but they know what they are doing. I often see people going "pfftt Ryanair did this, I am never flying them again". Their ticket prices are so low, that if one person doesnt fly with them, another will take their space.


True, but FR and EK (picking 2 extremes) aren't in the same market. Amongst LCCs, 96% is excellent and FR is doing better than easyjet. If EK sells out their F cabin, their J cabin and operates at 40% in Y, the flight still makes sense to fly.

LF matters - but context matters more, IMO.
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32andBelow
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Re: Ryanair has best passenger load factor of 96%

Tue Feb 13, 2018 11:19 pm

Antarius wrote:
cedarjet wrote:
Interesting argument about 85% being better than (say) 98%. I’m not sure, I get the importance of yield but fact is empty seats is money left on the table. (Fuel burn argument is spurious, if the added revenue doesn’t cover the fuel burn per seat you’re really in trouble.) I would think every penny of revenue counts, period.


true. But imagine you sell every single seat (100% LF) at USD 100. Your competitor sells 60% of theirs at USD 200. Who's ahead? For example, AA/BA may fly a 777 between JFK and LHR with terrible loads overall - but it is full up front. Makes the flight worth operating.

High LF is a good thing, and for an airline like FR, great. But it isn't the only metric that matters. If you aren't an LCC and your LF is 100%, you probably could raise prices some, lose a few customers and make more money.

Airline A has 50-100 more people to sell bags too, food, updgrades, and a bigger customer pool for repeat business. I'd rather be airline A. If you aren't at 100% full you aren't under charging for that flight.
 
Antarius
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Re: Ryanair has best passenger load factor of 96%

Tue Feb 13, 2018 11:21 pm

32andBelow wrote:
Antarius wrote:
cedarjet wrote:
Interesting argument about 85% being better than (say) 98%. I’m not sure, I get the importance of yield but fact is empty seats is money left on the table. (Fuel burn argument is spurious, if the added revenue doesn’t cover the fuel burn per seat you’re really in trouble.) I would think every penny of revenue counts, period.


true. But imagine you sell every single seat (100% LF) at USD 100. Your competitor sells 60% of theirs at USD 200. Who's ahead? For example, AA/BA may fly a 777 between JFK and LHR with terrible loads overall - but it is full up front. Makes the flight worth operating.

High LF is a good thing, and for an airline like FR, great. But it isn't the only metric that matters. If you aren't an LCC and your LF is 100%, you probably could raise prices some, lose a few customers and make more money.

Airline A has 50-100 more people to sell bags too, food, updgrades, and a bigger customer pool for repeat business. I'd rather be airline A. If you aren't at 100% full you aren't under charging for that flight.


Assuming all things are equal. Such as an LCC (or roughly equal).

Selling out J/F and having half empty Y on a full service carrier is not the same as selling out more Y than thhe aforementioned on an LCC. Each class and fare needs to be weighted accordingly. A 10,000 USD F ticket covers many many empty Y seats. You can't directly equate it to a 26 USD ticket on FR
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gunnerman
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Re: Ryanair has best passenger load factor of 96%

Tue Feb 13, 2018 11:24 pm

Ryanair's ancillary revenue is almost 27% of its total, so high load factors definitely help. However, from 13 January 2018, the EU banned card surcharges and the UK government added a PayPal and Apple Pay surcharge ban. As Ryanair is Europe's biggest people carrier and was charging 2% for making credit card bookings, it's been the hardest hit.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/travel/news/airlines-that-rely-most-on-extra-charges/
 
leghorn
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Re: Ryanair has best passenger load factor of 96%

Tue Feb 13, 2018 11:36 pm

The last seats on a Ryanair plane would not be sold cheap. Go to their website and price a flight departing in the next week.
Their pricing model works well for them while still giving me the Customer a 50 euro return flight in June on a 2 hour long flight.
 
PerVG
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Re: Ryanair has best passenger load factor of 96%

Tue Feb 13, 2018 11:52 pm

JetBuddy wrote:
I don't think a 96% load factor is something worth striving for. Calculations I've seen elsewhere suggests the sweet spot is around 85%. If your load factors are near 100%, you should increase the prices of tickets until it drops to around 85%. That's where you make the most money.


Not sure that would work with Ryanair. Their thing is being dirt cheap.
Know lots of people who fly with Ryanair. Everybody hates and complains about them, yet everybody keeps flying with them.Because they are dirt cheap. Witch also gives them the bonus of consistently taking the first (cheapest) spot in the fare search sites.
If they raise their prices just a little bit, people will just fly with someone else.
 
32andBelow
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Re: Ryanair has best passenger load factor of 96%

Wed Feb 14, 2018 1:15 am

Antarius wrote:
32andBelow wrote:
Antarius wrote:

true. But imagine you sell every single seat (100% LF) at USD 100. Your competitor sells 60% of theirs at USD 200. Who's ahead? For example, AA/BA may fly a 777 between JFK and LHR with terrible loads overall - but it is full up front. Makes the flight worth operating.

High LF is a good thing, and for an airline like FR, great. But it isn't the only metric that matters. If you aren't an LCC and your LF is 100%, you probably could raise prices some, lose a few customers and make more money.

Airline A has 50-100 more people to sell bags too, food, updgrades, and a bigger customer pool for repeat business. I'd rather be airline A. If you aren't at 100% full you aren't under charging for that flight.


Assuming all things are equal. Such as an LCC (or roughly equal).

Selling out J/F and having half empty Y on a full service carrier is not the same as selling out more Y than thhe aforementioned on an LCC. Each class and fare needs to be weighted accordingly. A 10,000 USD F ticket covers many many empty Y seats. You can't directly equate it to a 26 USD ticket on FR

It may cover those empty seats may be easier to fill. Hen selling 1 seat for 10k an astronomical waste of money for any person of any Wealth.
 
Antarius
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Re: Ryanair has best passenger load factor of 96%

Wed Feb 14, 2018 3:26 am

32andBelow wrote:
Antarius wrote:
32andBelow wrote:
Airline A has 50-100 more people to sell bags too, food, updgrades, and a bigger customer pool for repeat business. I'd rather be airline A. If you aren't at 100% full you aren't under charging for that flight.


Assuming all things are equal. Such as an LCC (or roughly equal).

Selling out J/F and having half empty Y on a full service carrier is not the same as selling out more Y than thhe aforementioned on an LCC. Each class and fare needs to be weighted accordingly. A 10,000 USD F ticket covers many many empty Y seats. You can't directly equate it to a 26 USD ticket on FR

It may cover those empty seats may be easier to fill. Hen selling 1 seat for 10k an astronomical waste of money for any person of any Wealth.


That is your opinion. Businesses are built on the market and not just that opinion.

That's why we have both airlines like FR and WoW/Norweigian and those like EK SQ etc
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lightsaber
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Re: Ryanair has best passenger load factor of 96%

Wed Feb 14, 2018 4:03 am

32andBelow wrote:
Antarius wrote:
32andBelow wrote:
Airline A has 50-100 more people to sell bags too, food, updgrades, and a bigger customer pool for repeat business. I'd rather be airline A. If you aren't at 100% full you aren't under charging for that flight.


Assuming all things are equal. Such as an LCC (or roughly equal).

Selling out J/F and having half empty Y on a full service carrier is not the same as selling out more Y than thhe aforementioned on an LCC. Each class and fare needs to be weighted accordingly. A 10,000 USD F ticket covers many many empty Y seats. You can't directly equate it to a 26 USD ticket on FR

It may cover those empty seats may be easier to fill. Hen selling 1 seat for 10k an astronomical waste of money for any person of any Wealth.

That 10k person is someone who chose not to pay $50k for a private charter. I wouldn't, but I have kids to support.

But Ryanair isn't even offering fat seats (old J) or lie flat. They have one product they sell cheap and profitably.

96% load factors is pricing too low. Even FR can overfill. But what is optimum for their sales model?

But how much of this was not having enough pilots to fly all aircraft due to the scheduling issue?

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r2rho
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Re: Ryanair has best passenger load factor of 96%

Wed Feb 14, 2018 9:14 am

96% LF is actually not something to be happy about at all - it means you are either leaving pax behind or you are leaving yield behind, or both.
 
leghorn
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Re: Ryanair has best passenger load factor of 96%

Wed Feb 14, 2018 12:50 pm

it seems me that at 4% empty seats Ryanair are less unhappy than those with 25 or 40% empty seats.
Ryanair have thier own discriminatory pricing model where if you want to fly as cheaply as possible you can but most people don't want to fly as cheaply as possible and spend an increasing amount on ancillaries. The discrimiatory pricing doesn't depend on having premium seats and premium meals which can only be sold to those customers who might be willing to pay for them but leaving a percentage of the aircraft unavailable to other more budget concious flyers.
Other airlines have their own strategies to maximise yield like leaving a seat free in each bench of 3 seats which limits their possible revenue per flight and are partially self-defeating in that there in an empty seat there which ryanair would be able to sell.
 
airzona11
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Re: Ryanair has best passenger load factor of 96%

Wed Feb 14, 2018 2:25 pm

r2rho wrote:
96% LF is actually not something to be happy about at all - it means you are either leaving pax behind or you are leaving yield behind, or both.


You and others are 100% assuming FR isnt using cost modeling and yield management like all the other airlines. FR has pretty much written the book on ancillary fees, everything is unbundled. Reading this thread one would assume it was a time like 15+ years ago when average load factors were in the 70s or less and that was "normal." All of these same arguments were used then. Times have changed. Every single year airlines are trying to grow their LF%. It is a metric watched by shareholders and the board. They talk about it all the time.

At 85% you are either leaving pax behind or leaving yield behind. Same at every single % other than 0 or 100%.

And when looking all these numbers, FR is not filling their planes with connecting traffic. On a unit basis, O/D is more profitable than connecting traffic. They have a 96% load factor with near 100% O/D.
 
Amsterdam
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Re: Ryanair has best passenger load factor of 96%

Wed Feb 14, 2018 2:40 pm

No United and Air France figures?
 
konrad
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Re: Ryanair has best passenger load factor of 96%

Wed Feb 14, 2018 4:36 pm

Yet another reason to avoid Ryanair.
 
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PatrickZ80
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Re: Ryanair has best passenger load factor of 96%

Wed Feb 14, 2018 5:22 pm

Amsterdam wrote:
No United and Air France figures?


They didn't make the list, meaning their load factors are lower than 76%.

konrad wrote:
Yet another reason to avoid Ryanair.


A lot of people will disagree on that, including me. I've flown Ryanair quite often and it never bothered me that the planes were full. Sometimes the plane was actually 100% full, and not just during the holiday season. Still I've never had any bad experience with Ryanair.
 
ShinyAndChrome
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Re: Ryanair has best passenger load factor of 96%

Wed Feb 14, 2018 5:39 pm

PatrickZ80 wrote:
Amsterdam wrote:
No United and Air France figures?


They didn't make the list, meaning their load factors are lower than 76%.


Does it? I was under the impression that the Telegraph list was just a sample of other large carriers.
 
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PW100
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Re: Ryanair has best passenger load factor of 96%

Wed Feb 14, 2018 7:11 pm

Sorry, may have missed this in the thread.
I was wondering wheather an empty seat, but paid for seat (= non-refundable no-show), is counted in the 4%, or does the 96% for Ryanair inlcude these emtry seats? In the latter case, the actual number of people on board would probably be somewhat lower than the published 96%.
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gunnerman
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Re: Ryanair has best passenger load factor of 96%

Wed Feb 14, 2018 7:52 pm

The passenger load factor (PLF) shows how effective is the airline in using the available seats for revenue generation. My understanding is that when a ticket is both non-changeable and non-refundable, the no-show passenger is included in the PLF.

Staying on the subject of the actual number of people on board: bear in mind that we are talking about revenue passengers, so passengers such as deadhead crew and those on standby tickets are excluded from the PLF. However, passengers with redemption tickets are included in the PLF as these are commercial tickets (even if the fare is zero) and that the ticket is part of a revenue relationship which the airline has with the passenger.
 
Jetty
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Re: Ryanair has best passenger load factor of 96%

Wed Feb 14, 2018 8:00 pm

PatrickZ80 wrote:
Amsterdam wrote:
No United and Air France figures?


They didn't make the list, meaning their load factors are lower than 76%.

:roll: AF (and KL) actually have a higher load factor than all legacy airlines in the article. AF: 85,7% KL: 88,4%
 
gunnerman
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Re: Ryanair has best passenger load factor of 96%

Wed Feb 14, 2018 8:14 pm

KLM needs a high load factor as 70% of its passengers transfer at AMS, and typically fares on connecting flights are lower than those on direct flights.
 
Jetty
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Re: Ryanair has best passenger load factor of 96%

Wed Feb 14, 2018 8:18 pm

Antarius wrote:
But imagine you sell every single seat (100% LF) at USD 100. Your competitor sells 60% of theirs at USD 200. Who's ahead? For example, AA/BA may fly a 777 between JFK and LHR with terrible loads overall - but it is full up front. Makes the flight worth operating.

Then there's a second competitor that flies with a 40% smaller plane and sells the same 60% of the tickets at USD 200. That airline will be ahead of the other 2 with the same revenue, lower costs and a 100% loadfactor. That's purely hypothetical of course, but as is any equation like that.
 
r2rho
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Re: Ryanair has best passenger load factor of 96%

Thu Feb 15, 2018 12:00 pm

At 85% you are either leaving pax behind or leaving yield behind.

There's actually a big difference between 85% and >90%.
85% implies likely that your peak hour flights are booked full, and off-peak less so. Most people will find a flight. You are leaving a few pax behind at peak hours, but making those last seats pay dearly for it (=yield).
96% implies all your flights are always full, which means there were people willing to pay to fly that couldn't. You could have either a) carried those pax offering more frequency or larger aircraft, or b) raised fares to make those last seats pay dearly for it.

I am not questioning the profitability of FR or of their model, which is beyond any doubt. That is a totally different subject.

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