jubguy3
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Re: Delta wants to be the launch customer for 797

Wed Feb 14, 2018 3:12 pm

evank516 wrote:
I swear I'm not as dumb as I look, but what is MOM?


Middle of Market
 
evank516
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Re: Delta wants to be the launch customer for 797

Wed Feb 14, 2018 3:12 pm

I swear I'm not as dumb as I look, but what is MOM?
 
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SQ789
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Re: Delta wants to be the launch customer for 797

Wed Feb 14, 2018 3:12 pm

What will the 797 looks like?
If it's not Boeing, I'm not going!
 
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Polot
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Re: Delta wants to be the launch customer for 797

Wed Feb 14, 2018 3:16 pm

evank516 wrote:
I swear I'm not as dumb as I look, but what is MOM?

Middle Of Market. A broad term but generally referring to slightly larger/more capable than the A321 but smaller/less capable than a A332/788. Think 767- if that aircraft was released today it would likely be considered a MOM aircraft, although the 763ER’s range is pushing the definition some. Boeing’s proposed 797 is thought to range somewhere between the 762-763 in size with a little less range (someone can correct me if I’m wrong there).
 
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deltadawg
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Re: Delta wants to be the launch customer for 797

Wed Feb 14, 2018 3:23 pm

The biggest question for me is if Boeing launches the 797 would it be the foreseen death of the A332/338 and even perhaps A333/339? It seems given all we have learned to date about the 797 that this would be playing right into the wheel house of the A332/338 with potential big savings on TATL routes as well as any other 4500-6000nm routes with capacities of 250-300 passengers. DL could be looking at the 797 as an answer not only to their aging 757 but also to added savings over the A332 fleet and possibly their A333 fleet. DL's A332 seats 234 total and the A333 seats 293 if I recall correctly and the article mentions one 797 version seating 225 with a 5k range and the other 275 and 4.5k range. These are fairly close and given newer technologies with the 797 I would think a significant cost savings would be attainable with the newer aircraft over the 2008 vintage A332's. Additionally, these 797's would be very useful on opening routes from places like RDU/PIT to CDG/AMS/LHR/HAM and the like.

I would think Boeing would announce the launch at Farnborough if it happens this year but with statements like this coming from the likes of DL perhaps they could surprise us sooner with an independent ceremony. Looking forward to it though.
GO Dawgs, Sic' em, woof woof woof
 
evank516
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Re: Delta wants to be the launch customer for 797

Wed Feb 14, 2018 3:52 pm

Polot wrote:
evank516 wrote:
I swear I'm not as dumb as I look, but what is MOM?

Middle Of Market. A broad term but generally referring to slightly larger/more capable than the A321 but smaller/less capable than a A332/788. Think 767- if that aircraft was released today it would likely be considered a MOM aircraft, although the 763ER’s range is pushing the definition some. Boeing’s proposed 797 is thought to range somewhere between the 762-763 in size with a little less range (someone can correct me if I’m wrong there).


Thank you!
 
WIederling
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Re: Delta wants to be the launch customer for 797

Wed Feb 14, 2018 3:53 pm

DL747400 wrote:
It isn't exactly a secret that AA isn't happy with the operating economics of their 787-8s.


In absolute terms or in comparison to some competing airframe?
Murphy is an optimist
 
WIederling
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Re: Delta wants to be the launch customer for 797

Wed Feb 14, 2018 3:58 pm

Polot wrote:
evank516 wrote:
I swear I'm not as dumb as I look, but what is MOM?

Middle Of Market.


Actually the dip between 2 peaks ( "NB optimum" and "WB optimum" )

Something like the uncanny valley in aesthetics of human image robots:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uncanny_valley
Murphy is an optimist
 
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Channex757
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Re: Delta wants to be the launch customer for 797

Wed Feb 14, 2018 3:59 pm

It will all come down to price in the end. Anyone fantasising about any other "solution" to Delta's mid-market needs is completely and utterly wrong.

Aircraft do not have to be exact fits. The price of the aircraft and its costs to run are the only factor, not some armchair CEO theory about what routes and markets an aircraft is ideal for.

Boeing needs to put pressure on suppliers like never before and maybe build the plane in Charleston and Tianjin (a new plant in the aviation centre of China) exclusively. Airbus has two aircraft which are carrying forward very little in the way of costs to amortise on each sale. As I said, price is going to be everything.

Let battle commence.
 
cledaybuck
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Re: Delta wants to be the launch customer for 797

Wed Feb 14, 2018 4:03 pm

speedbird52 wrote:
Revelation wrote:
william wrote:
That post almost cost me a new keyboard when I first read it.

LOL, though it must be a worst case scenario for Airbus fanbois.

DL is supposed to be Airbus's BFF but all of a sudden DL's touting the '797'.

What's next, DL's MAX-10 order? :biggrin:

I see no reason on Earth as to why Delta would want to order the MAX-10...
You wouldn't think so, but we are talking about an airline that ordered the 739 and A321 within two years of each other (and keeps taking more of each!).
 
cledaybuck
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Re: Delta wants to be the launch customer for 797

Wed Feb 14, 2018 4:09 pm

Atlwarrior wrote:
Great comeback, I say this is more about appeasing those who live in Seattle. Delta know it want be able to throw Boeing under the bus and build a Seattle hub. Regardless of how wrong Boeing May have been, those most who love in Seattle will see Boeing through rose colored glasses.
No its not. It is about an airline with a large fleet of 757's and 767's that thinks a plane specifically tailored to that segment would be a good fit for them.
 
dochawk2
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Re: Delta wants to be the launch customer for 797

Wed Feb 14, 2018 4:14 pm

deltadawg wrote:
The biggest question for me is if Boeing launches the 797 would it be the foreseen death of the A332/338 and even perhaps A333/339? It seems given all we have learned to date about the 797 that this would be playing right into the wheel house of the A332/338 with potential big savings on TATL routes as well as any other 4500-6000nm routes with capacities of 250-300 passengers. DL could be looking at the 797 as an answer not only to their aging 757 but also to added savings over the A332 fleet and possibly their A333 fleet. DL's A332 seats 234 total and the A333 seats 293 if I recall correctly and the article mentions one 797 version seating 225 with a 5k range and the other 275 and 4.5k range. These are fairly close and given newer technologies with the 797 I would think a significant cost savings would be attainable with the newer aircraft over the 2008 vintage A332's. Additionally, these 797's would be very useful on opening routes from places like RDU/PIT to CDG/AMS/LHR/HAM and the like.

I would think Boeing would announce the launch at Farnborough if it happens this year but with statements like this coming from the likes of DL perhaps they could surprise us sooner with an independent ceremony. Looking forward to it though.


I agree with you that there must be more to the 797 than any of us realize. Boeing is probably being hush-hush on what they have in store. I'm willing to be that the major decision maker/CEOs have heard enough from Boeing about the 797 for them to make public statements about it.

Remember the 767 PAX relaunch thread? That thing blew up! Why? Because everyone knows there is a true need for a plane to fill this void. The "problem" is that no one knows how many will be ordered! It is a plane made for a specific role, just as the regional jet, 73s/19/20/21s, 76s/33s, etc, are. Knowing the demand for the role specific plane has got to be challenging. If Boeing over-engineers it, costs skyrocket, and they never make a dime due to the more modest order books. Rehash old technology to save money, and the economics don't work for the buyer.

This is not a make or break plane for Boeing. What it is, is a chance for Boeing to do something different by setting an example by balancing all factors and not repeating the 78s development issues. This could be a model design/build system for new planes in the future.
God, give us wings to fly!
 
questions
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Re: Delta wants to be the launch customer for 797

Wed Feb 14, 2018 4:23 pm

Has Delta ever been the launch customer for a new aircraft type? If so, which one(s)?
 
klm617
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Re: Delta wants to be the launch customer for 797

Wed Feb 14, 2018 4:31 pm

Then they should put their money where their mouth is and place an significant order to get the ball rolling. Delta is nothing more than a big propaganda machine very rarely do they ever do what they say.
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
klm617
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Re: Delta wants to be the launch customer for 797

Wed Feb 14, 2018 4:34 pm

questions wrote:
Has Delta ever been the launch customer for a new aircraft type? If so, which one(s)?



The DC9 and Convair 880
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
Austin787
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Re: Delta wants to be the launch customer for 797

Wed Feb 14, 2018 4:36 pm

DeSpringbokke wrote:
Raise your hand if you find Delta wanting to be a launch customer for the 797 hard to be believe. (My hand is not raised.)

I will raise my hand. What Delta says is one thing, what they actually do is another thing. I suspect what Delta really wants is the Airbus competitor to the 797 at the best price. Boeing launching the 797 could push Airbus into launching its MoM plane.
 
B757Forever
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Re: Delta wants to be the launch customer for 797

Wed Feb 14, 2018 5:22 pm

klm617 wrote:
questions wrote:
Has Delta ever been the launch customer for a new aircraft type? If so, which one(s)?



The DC9 and Convair 880



The MD-90... :(
The Rolls Royce Dart. Noise = Shaft Horsepower.
 
ShinyAndChrome
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Re: Delta wants to be the launch customer for 797

Wed Feb 14, 2018 5:27 pm

Austin787 wrote:
DeSpringbokke wrote:
Raise your hand if you find Delta wanting to be a launch customer for the 797 hard to be believe. (My hand is not raised.)

I will raise my hand. What Delta says is one thing, what they actually do is another thing. I suspect what Delta really wants is the Airbus competitor to the 797 at the best price. Boeing launching the 797 could push Airbus into launching its MoM plane.


Listen to yourself. Delta is talking about a speculative Boeing plane, the details and dimensions of which haven't even been decided and which hasn't even been announced and you think there's some long game aimed at Airbus eventually building another plane even farther in the future in a market niche they've repeatedly said they already serve with the A321neo?
 
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redzeppelin
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Re: Delta wants to be the launch customer for 797

Wed Feb 14, 2018 5:47 pm

It is fun to watch how DL works sometimes. One of the more interesting revelations to come from the BBD tariff proceedings was that DL had negotiated deeper discounts by stating their intention to only use the CS100 on routes under 1000 nmi, and would pay more later if they decided to exploit the full range of the aircraft. (I don't have a link, but that was on another thread here.) So it's like they contractually de-rated the aircraft. I think that story is informative for the current discussion. DL doesn't want to pay for over-capable aircraft, and will negotiate on that point. I suspect that was part of what killed the 787 order. I wouldn't be surprised if DL asked Boeing for some kind of paper de-rate with comparably discounted pricing, and then pulled out when Boeing refused. Maybe that will all come out someday. Richard Anderson publicly praised the 787-10, and I thought DL would buy a bunch of them, but something must not have penciled out. Maybe it was just too big.

The bottom line is that for those who believe that the 787 is/was the perfect replacement for DL's 767 fleet, I expect we'll soon discover that the 797 will be even more ideal.
 
ILNFlyer
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Re: Delta wants to be the launch customer for 797

Wed Feb 14, 2018 6:31 pm

jubguy3 wrote:
727200 wrote:
Within the last few years it has made sense for Delta to order Airbus aircraft, but as with any large airline, a single brand will not meet their needs, so they are cyclicly going to gravitate towards Boeing aircraft that meet their needs. It's funny that DL has made an enemy in the Boeing fans on this website because they will still operate more Boeing aircraft in the future than Airbus aircraft.

Anyways, I feel that the 797 is a great fit for Deltas fleet based on everything we understand about it. They don't buy aircraft to appease to political standings...


True. Boeing has had a substantial Boeing presence for many, many years and when Boeing produces an airplane that best suits their needs, they will buy it. If Airbus builds it, they get the nod. Brand loyalty has become a thing of the past.
 
SelseyBill
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Re: Delta wants to be the launch customer for 797

Wed Feb 14, 2018 7:21 pm

Channex757 wrote:
It will all come down to price in the end. Anyone fantasising about any other "solution" to Delta's mid-market needs is completely and utterly wrong. Aircraft do not have to be exact fits. The price of the aircraft and its costs to run are the only factor, not some armchair CEO theory about what routes and markets an aircraft is ideal for.
Boeing needs to put pressure on suppliers like never before and maybe build the plane in Charleston and Tianjin (a new plant in the aviation centre of China) exclusively. Airbus has two aircraft which are carrying forward very little in the way of costs to amortise on each sale. As I said, price is going to be everything.


Maybe the most insightful post so far IMO, in this 'Boeing love-in' thread......

Delta, UA, AA, WN, AS or whoever may love this theoretical 797 as a aircraft, but they will want to know likely unit price and discounts early, so they can do calculations like assessing the benefits of quicker turnarounds through twin-aisle access, against the likely lower purchase cost of a single-aisle A321 or A322NEO with maybe longer turn round times; (aside from all the other economics).

Delta will love the prospect of cheap early 797 aircraft, but not if they come with the headaches of the early 787s. We had the 'terrible-teens' with the 787; Boeing will not want a 'terrible-twins' episode with 797.

I also believe Canada and the rest of the world will be watching Boeings' 797 pricing closely, given what they have accused Bombardier of doing with Deltas' C-Series order.

I suspect AC will be on Boeings' early customers list for 797, and that will be a meeting worth listening to.
 
DarthLobster
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Re: Delta wants to be the launch customer for 797

Wed Feb 14, 2018 7:42 pm

DeSpringbokke wrote:
DarthLobster wrote:
DeSpringbokke wrote:
As for a replacement for the 21 767-400ERs and 21 PMNW A330-300s, I'd look to the 787-10.


Why would a huge A330 customer like DL order 787s - an aircraft they've gone well out of their way to avoid operating - to replace their older A330s when they still have 25 more on the way?


Uh, look at high capacity TATL/Deep South America flights that the 787-10 perfectly fills. Offers greater flexibility. I do think Delta will order more A330 NEOs but they'll definitely order the 787-10. Delta executives have had nothing but good things to say about the plane. Its just not the right time for Delta to order the aircraft.


Airlines don’t just add aircraft because they fill a niche. DL had the opportunity to operate 787s and went with Airbus instead. It’d make far more sense logistically to go with an aircraft of same or close commonality (ie A350-1000) then bring in a whole new type.
 
DarthLobster
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Re: Delta wants to be the launch customer for 797

Wed Feb 14, 2018 7:44 pm

jubguy3 wrote:
DarthLobster wrote:
DeSpringbokke wrote:
As for a replacement for the 21 767-400ERs and 21 PMNW A330-300s, I'd look to the 787-10.


Why would a huge A330 customer like DL order 787s - an aircraft they've gone well out of their way to avoid operating - to replace their older A330s when they still have 25 more on the way?


Well out of their way? They cancelled an order that Northwest paid way too much money for that had to be deferred. It wasn't the right schedule or price. Delta is on record saying that they felt the 787 was the more capable aircraft, but Boeing was not willing to give them the right schedule or price. It was a legacy of the northwest merger, an asset they used to get leverage for the 737-900ER order.


Ahh, yes, the A.Net semantics police who blares the siren without a fact-check....
 
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Revelation
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Re: Delta wants to be the launch customer for 797

Wed Feb 14, 2018 8:03 pm

Channex757 wrote:
It will all come down to price in the end. Anyone fantasising about any other "solution" to Delta's mid-market needs is completely and utterly wrong.

Aircraft do not have to be exact fits. The price of the aircraft and its costs to run are the only factor, not some armchair CEO theory about what routes and markets an aircraft is ideal for.

Boeing needs to put pressure on suppliers like never before and maybe build the plane in Charleston and Tianjin (a new plant in the aviation centre of China) exclusively. Airbus has two aircraft which are carrying forward very little in the way of costs to amortise on each sale. As I said, price is going to be everything.

Let battle commence.

While I agree price is very important, if your preposition as stated was true, there would be runaway sales on A330neo since introduction and very few 787s would have sold, but that's not how things are playing out. I think there are some "value buyers" out there, but they aren't the only ones buying.
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MSPNWA
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Re: Delta wants to be the launch customer for 797

Wed Feb 14, 2018 8:09 pm

This is the same airline that said they would take their 787 order. I'll believe it when I see it. This sounds like another negotiation tactic. The 797 has to exist first anyway.
 
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Revelation
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Re: Delta wants to be the launch customer for 797

Wed Feb 14, 2018 8:12 pm

SelseyBill wrote:
Delta, UA, AA, WN, AS or whoever may love this theoretical 797 as a aircraft, but they will want to know likely unit price and discounts early, so they can do calculations like assessing the benefits of quicker turnarounds through twin-aisle access, against the likely lower purchase cost of a single-aisle A321 or A322NEO with maybe longer turn round times; (aside from all the other economics).

So you think this subject has not come up with Boeing and DL already?

Or that Bastian made the statement he made without an understanding of the '797's "likely unit price and discounts"?

I suspect AC will be on Boeings' early customers list for 797, and that will be a meeting worth listening to.

Yep, just like DL is happy to speak with Boeing and publicly praise the '797', it should be no surprise that AC will be glad to have a meeting too, despite all the US-Canada rhetoric flying around in the aftermath of the C Series squabble.
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
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Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
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OA940
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Re: Delta wants to be the launch customer for 797

Wed Feb 14, 2018 8:13 pm

Redemption for Boeing?
A350/CSeries = bae
 
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Channex757
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Re: Delta wants to be the launch customer for 797

Wed Feb 14, 2018 8:15 pm

Revelation wrote:
Channex757 wrote:
It will all come down to price in the end. Anyone fantasising about any other "solution" to Delta's mid-market needs is completely and utterly wrong.

Aircraft do not have to be exact fits. The price of the aircraft and its costs to run are the only factor, not some armchair CEO theory about what routes and markets an aircraft is ideal for.

Boeing needs to put pressure on suppliers like never before and maybe build the plane in Charleston and Tianjin (a new plant in the aviation centre of China) exclusively. Airbus has two aircraft which are carrying forward very little in the way of costs to amortise on each sale. As I said, price is going to be everything.

Let battle commence.

While I agree price is very important, if your preposition as stated was true, there would be runaway sales on A330neo since introduction and very few 787s would have sold, but that's not how things are playing out. I think there are some "value buyers" out there, but they aren't the only ones buying.

There have been plenty of A330 sales. Not just the NEO, both versions covering the period of the 787 introduction.

IIRC 2016 was the year the A330CEO outsold the 787 as Airbus was discounting hard. This will only continue.
 
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ER757
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Re: Delta wants to be the launch customer for 797

Wed Feb 14, 2018 8:24 pm

RobertPhoenix wrote:
william wrote:
So we have major airlines from around the world who have seen the preliminary specs for this aircraft are gushing about it. Boeing may have another order “euphoria” like they experienced with the 787.


Wasn't the rush for the 787 driven by the seriously low prices, driven by the belief that production costs would be so low with the new technology ?

I do hear a lot of mention of production technology for the 797, so I suspect that the offering price is also low on account of that.

Maybe this time they can do it, just as the A350 seems to have benefited from the lessons on the A380

Nah, it was that snazzy shark fin tail in initial renderings. What Airline CEO could resist that sexy beast? ;)

Back on topic - amazing how many a.netters think Boeing feels jilted by DL - Boeing is a corporation, not a rebuffed girlfriend. DL and Boeing will do what mutually benefits their profit margin. End of story.

To the poster that says DL would buy the 797 so they can get some local love for their Seattle hub....are you serious or was that a joke? There really needs to be a sarcasm emoji on here. At least I hope it was sarcasm because no right-thinking adult would really believe that nonsense
 
kevin5345179
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Re: Delta wants to be the launch customer for 797

Wed Feb 14, 2018 8:29 pm

let's wait until the price tag shows up
so far the assumption has been made on price tag of 75M (as of today's dollar...)
Majority of analysts don't believe this will happen, but if it will plus launch customer's discount can certainly be a big push for DL
With Muilenburg attitude toward suppliers, I really don't think 75M is a possible goal as we saw all the mergers happening in the industry
Unless Boeing decided to build more things in house
 
bobnwa
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Re: Delta wants to be the launch customer for 797

Wed Feb 14, 2018 8:30 pm

727200 wrote:
I thought I read that UA and SW will be the launch customers; and more articles pointed to UA. Guess DL realized they missed the boat on the 787 and figure they better not be left all alone again.

I would bet that not many others on this forum believe that!!!!
 
Bricktop
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Re: Delta wants to be the launch customer for 797

Wed Feb 14, 2018 8:35 pm

kevin5345179 wrote:
<snip>
Unless Boeing decided to build more things in house

Don't you think that's a certainty?
 
Iksu
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Re: Delta wants to be the launch customer for 797

Wed Feb 14, 2018 8:45 pm

Wait, what!? Is Delta actually ordering new planes from the factory and better yet paper planes...
 
speedbird52
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Re: Delta wants to be the launch customer for 797

Wed Feb 14, 2018 8:48 pm

Revelation wrote:
speedbird52 wrote:
I see no reason on Earth as to why Delta would want to order the MAX-10...

Here on Earth we might see DL following the same reasoning for MAX-10 as they are for 797 -- MAX-10 will be more efficient than A321 on shorter routes, and Boeing probably will sell them cheaper than Airbus will sell A321 (due to its big backlog and perhaps due to AA's "most favored customer" contract), there might be value for their MRO business to have some MAXes in the fleet, etc. You do know that DL is taking 130 737-900ERs right here on earth right as we speak, no?

Could I see those 900ERs being converted to -10s? Easily and I think that would be very good for them. I don't see them operating the huge amount of A321s they have on order as well as MAX10s and I doubt they would cancel the A321 order. Having essentially three mom planes makes zero sense for them.
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SelseyBill
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Re: Delta wants to be the launch customer for 797

Wed Feb 14, 2018 8:56 pm

Revelation wrote:
SelseyBill wrote:
Delta, UA, AA, WN, AS or whoever may love this theoretical 797 as a aircraft, but they will want to know likely unit price and discounts early, so they can do calculations like assessing the benefits of quicker turnarounds through twin-aisle access, against the likely lower purchase cost of a single-aisle A321 or A322NEO with maybe longer turn round times; (aside from all the other economics).

So you think this subject has not come up with Boeing and DL already? Or that Bastian made the statement he made without an understanding of the '797's "likely unit price and discounts"?


I'm absolutely certain DL have met with Boeing many times to talk about 797, just as they have talked with Airbus about their products. I'm sure the folks in DL's operations have done calculations to see what looks like the best options for them for right now, and when 797 is likely to be available probably 2025-26. I'm certain Bastians' comments were phrased to get the best possible leverage in future discussions in the sole interests of DL's customers and shareholders, rather than any interest particularly in Boeing or Airbus.

Revelation wrote:
.......without an understanding of the '797's "likely unit price and discounts".


I'm absolutely certain Ed Bastian knows the 'ballpark' figure he is likely to want to/have to pay for the 797, as he does with anything DL invests in. I was more interested in thinking of the likely discount figure he was offered by Boeing for a theoretical sizeable order for say 75 x 797 to replace his 767 fleet, and how this sat on his 'irony-meter' given Boeings' reaction to the discount numbers BBD offered DL for their C-Series order and Boeings' subsequent reaction to it.

Revelation wrote:
Yep, just like DL is happy to speak with Boeing and publicly praise the '797', it should be no surprise that AC will be glad to have a meeting too, despite all the US-Canada rhetoric flying around in the aftermath of the C Series squabble.


I'd hardly call it a 'squabble'. Just as any 797 may be a positive future factor for DL and their customers and shareholders, lobbying for a near 300% tariff to be applied to a product that DL had made a major investment decision in represented a major negative for DL's immediate prospects. Not as easily dismissed IMO as you seem to suggest......
 
Flighty
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Re: Delta wants to be the launch customer for 797

Wed Feb 14, 2018 9:03 pm

Austin787 wrote:
DeSpringbokke wrote:
Raise your hand if you find Delta wanting to be a launch customer for the 797 hard to be believe. (My hand is not raised.)

I will raise my hand. What Delta says is one thing, what they actually do is another thing. I suspect what Delta really wants is the Airbus competitor to the 797 at the best price. Boeing launching the 797 could push Airbus into launching its MoM plane.


Ding. Solid post. Or Airbus could just sell A338s very cheaply to Delta.
 
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Revelation
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Re: Delta wants to be the launch customer for 797

Wed Feb 14, 2018 9:28 pm

Channex757 wrote:
There have been plenty of A330 sales. Not just the NEO, both versions covering the period of the 787 introduction.

IIRC 2016 was the year the A330CEO outsold the 787 as Airbus was discounting hard. This will only continue.

If cost were everything, we would be talking about A330 strongly outselling 787 since the start, not Airbus catching up to 787 with deep backlog in 2016 by selling end-of-line A330ceos.

All I'm saying is that there are "value" customers and "performance" customers, whereas you seem to only see the "value" customers.

Yet I think our positions are not that far apart. I think pricing is very important to '797'. Everyone (A, B, DL, WN, UA, QF, DY, etc) knows a lot about what Airbus can do with pricing. I just think '797' would not even have gotten this far in the process towards being a product and we wouldn't be hearing the positive feedback from Bastian, Joyce, et al. if Boeing didn't have a workable approach to the pricing issue. Boeing itself has made it clear they understand the tiny window they need to hit.
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william
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Re: Delta wants to be the launch customer for 797

Wed Feb 14, 2018 9:32 pm

Flighty wrote:
Austin787 wrote:
DeSpringbokke wrote:
Raise your hand if you find Delta wanting to be a launch customer for the 797 hard to be believe. (My hand is not raised.)

I will raise my hand. What Delta says is one thing, what they actually do is another thing. I suspect what Delta really wants is the Airbus competitor to the 797 at the best price. Boeing launching the 797 could push Airbus into launching its MoM plane.


Ding. Solid post. Or Airbus could just sell A338s very cheaply to Delta.


Then Delta can be the launch customer to the "rumored" A322. However, it may be just me, but I don't think airlines are as enthusiastic as Anetters here for a 757-300 sized single aisle aircraft high capacity aircraft.

And they can buy more A330NEOs now for a good price if they wanted too.
 
kevin5345179
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Re: Delta wants to be the launch customer for 797

Wed Feb 14, 2018 9:41 pm

Bricktop wrote:
kevin5345179 wrote:
<snip>
Unless Boeing decided to build more things in house

Don't you think that's a certainty?


I'm seeing that's happening already:
composite wing (was done by Mitsubishi Heavy Industry at least on 787)
BGS (all the after market related used to be provided by suppliers)
Boeing Avionics (Rockwell Collins)
seats-JV with Adient (Zodiac?)
actuators with purchase of Woodward
list will keep getting longer ....
 
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Revelation
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Re: Delta wants to be the launch customer for 797

Wed Feb 14, 2018 9:43 pm

speedbird52 wrote:
Revelation wrote:
speedbird52 wrote:
I see no reason on Earth as to why Delta would want to order the MAX-10...

Here on Earth we might see DL following the same reasoning for MAX-10 as they are for 797 -- MAX-10 will be more efficient than A321 on shorter routes, and Boeing probably will sell them cheaper than Airbus will sell A321 (due to its big backlog and perhaps due to AA's "most favored customer" contract), there might be value for their MRO business to have some MAXes in the fleet, etc. You do know that DL is taking 130 737-900ERs right here on earth right as we speak, no?

Could I see those 900ERs being converted to -10s? Easily and I think that would be very good for them.

Easily? Nope, not at all -- DL has 90 of the 130 in house already! ( ref: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delta_Air ... rent_fleet ).

speedbird52 wrote:
I don't see them operating the huge amount of A321s they have on order as well as MAX10s and I doubt they would cancel the A321 order. Having essentially three mom planes makes zero sense for them.

They'll have far more than "three mom planes" in the fleet at the same time: Airbus A321-200, Airbus A321neo, Boeing 737-900ER, Boeing 757-200, Boeing 757-300, Boeing 767-300ER, Boeing 767-400ER, Airbus A330-200, Airbus A330-300 and Airbus A330-900neo can all be thought of as "mom planes" depending on how you define "mom", and should have at least some overlap in the DL fleet.

Bottom line: I would not rule out DL snapping up MAX-10 if the right opportunity comes along some time during the MAX's production run. Also in the long run I could see '797' being in DL's fleet along with A321neo and A330neo.
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
The heart has it's beaches, it's homeland and thoughts of it's own
Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
The heart has it's seasons, it's evenings and songs of it's own
 
kevin5345179
Posts: 82
Joined: Sat Feb 10, 2018 4:08 am

Re: Delta wants to be the launch customer for 797

Wed Feb 14, 2018 9:52 pm

Revelation wrote:
speedbird52 wrote:
Revelation wrote:

Here on Earth we might see DL following the same reasoning for MAX-10 as they are for 797 -- MAX-10 will be more efficient than A321 on shorter routes, and Boeing probably will sell them cheaper than Airbus will sell A321 (due to its big backlog and perhaps due to AA's "most favored customer" contract), there might be value for their MRO business to have some MAXes in the fleet, etc. You do know that DL is taking 130 737-900ERs right here on earth right as we speak, no?

Could I see those 900ERs being converted to -10s? Easily and I think that would be very good for them.

Easily? Nope, not at all -- DL has 90 of the 130 in house already! ( ref: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delta_Air ... rent_fleet ).

speedbird52 wrote:
I don't see them operating the huge amount of A321s they have on order as well as MAX10s and I doubt they would cancel the A321 order. Having essentially three mom planes makes zero sense for them.

They'll have far more than "three mom planes" in the fleet at the same time: Airbus A321-200, Airbus A321neo, Boeing 737-900ER, Boeing 757-200, Boeing 757-300, Boeing 767-300ER, Boeing 767-400ER, Airbus A330-200, Airbus A330-300 and Airbus A330-900neo can all be thought of as "mom planes" depending on how you define "mom", and should have at least some overlap in the DL fleet.

Bottom line: I would not rule out DL snapping up MAX-10 if the right opportunity comes along some time during the MAX's production run. Also in the long run I could see '797' being in DL's fleet along with A321neo and A330neo.


one of the reason DL went for A321neo instead of Max10 is MRO
Unless CFM changes mind, I don't think order will happen
With 100 firm orders from A321neo + 100 options, I'm having hard time to see that MAX 10 will be competitive especially when 797 is available
Looking at their fleet, I'm having difficult time to image that they will buy new type of plane with small size
In addition, those new engines are not used anywhere else in their fleet
 
Flighty
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Re: Delta wants to be the launch customer for 797

Wed Feb 14, 2018 10:04 pm

william wrote:
Flighty wrote:
Austin787 wrote:
I will raise my hand. What Delta says is one thing, what they actually do is another thing. I suspect what Delta really wants is the Airbus competitor to the 797 at the best price. Boeing launching the 797 could push Airbus into launching its MoM plane.


Ding. Solid post. Or Airbus could just sell A338s very cheaply to Delta.


Then Delta can be the launch customer to the "rumored" A322. However, it may be just me, but I don't think airlines are as enthusiastic as Anetters here for a 757-300 sized single aisle aircraft high capacity aircraft.

And they can buy more A330NEOs now for a good price if they wanted too.


I think we understand each other. Delta is asking for the A330 NEO, but a little bit lighter and techier, AND _cheaper_ than the A330 NEO. Somebody might want to explain that. What will the trip fuel burn be versus A338 NEO? 10% less? Can it be done?

A feasible goal is, get Airbus' juices flowing right now, and ink a killer A338 NEO deal. You touched on a good question, how is Airbus pricing A338 NEO, firm or soft, that is kind of the question at this point.
 
jubguy3
Posts: 511
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Re: Delta wants to be the launch customer for 797

Wed Feb 14, 2018 11:25 pm

DarthLobster wrote:
jubguy3 wrote:
DarthLobster wrote:

Why would a huge A330 customer like DL order 787s - an aircraft they've gone well out of their way to avoid operating - to replace their older A330s when they still have 25 more on the way?


Well out of their way? They cancelled an order that Northwest paid way too much money for that had to be deferred. It wasn't the right schedule or price. Delta is on record saying that they felt the 787 was the more capable aircraft, but Boeing was not willing to give them the right schedule or price. It was a legacy of the northwest merger, an asset they used to get leverage for the 737-900ER order.


Ahh, yes, the A.Net semantics police who blares the siren without a fact-check....


How was I policing his semantics? Was I wrong? I'm literally just repeating what Delta said.
 
JustSomeDood
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Re: Delta wants to be the launch customer for 797

Thu Feb 15, 2018 12:09 am

Flighty wrote:
william wrote:
Flighty wrote:

Ding. Solid post. Or Airbus could just sell A338s very cheaply to Delta.


Then Delta can be the launch customer to the "rumored" A322. However, it may be just me, but I don't think airlines are as enthusiastic as Anetters here for a 757-300 sized single aisle aircraft high capacity aircraft.

And they can buy more A330NEOs now for a good price if they wanted too.


I think we understand each other. Delta is asking for the A330 NEO, but a little bit lighter and techier, AND _cheaper_ than the A330 NEO. Somebody might want to explain that. What will the trip fuel burn be versus A338 NEO? 10% less? Can it be done?

A feasible goal is, get Airbus' juices flowing right now, and ink a killer A338 NEO deal. You touched on a good question, how is Airbus pricing A338 NEO, firm or soft, that is kind of the question at this point.


10% Trip fuel advantage over the A338 would be childs play for an optimized 4-5knm MoM, if Airbus puts new 50klbf engines on the A300 as is, they'd reach that figure comfortably.

A 764 is barely over 100t OEW and that's on last gen engines, suboptimal wing, significantly longer than MoM, and is overcapable for 4000-ish nm range to boot. Shave even 15% from that empty weight for a clean sheet MoM and the operational economics would be so overwhelming that A could give away the 338 and it'd still lose the RFP.

Whether that's enough against the 321LR/322 would be another matter..
 
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william
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Re: Delta wants to be the launch customer for 797

Thu Feb 15, 2018 12:18 am

Flighty wrote:
william wrote:
Flighty wrote:

Ding. Solid post. Or Airbus could just sell A338s very cheaply to Delta.


Then Delta can be the launch customer to the "rumored" A322. However, it may be just me, but I don't think airlines are as enthusiastic as Anetters here for a 757-300 sized single aisle aircraft high capacity aircraft.

And they can buy more A330NEOs now for a good price if they wanted too.


I think we understand each other. Delta is asking for the A330 NEO, but a little bit lighter and techier, AND _cheaper_ than the A330 NEO. Somebody might want to explain that. What will the trip fuel burn be versus A338 NEO? 10% less? Can it be done?

A feasible goal is, get Airbus' juices flowing right now, and ink a killer A338 NEO deal. You touched on a good question, how is Airbus pricing A338 NEO, firm or soft, that is kind of the question at this point.


Someone posted they deduced that Delta paid like 75 million per A330 from financial reports. Which is what Boeing is stating airlines want this 797 priced at.

It will be interesting at the official launch of the 797 to see how it compares to the A330.
 
brindabella
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Re: Delta wants to be the launch customer for 797

Thu Feb 15, 2018 3:41 am

coronado wrote:
Keep in mind they are getting the A339 for about $87-$93mm each, per my calculations, , as launch customer, so that in my mind is the basis of their Capex target for a 797.


Only slightly off topic ... IIRC at one stage Anderson(I think) decided to rebut the Boeing line that the 787 missed-out due lack of availability.
He stated (IIRC) that the 350s came for $105m. Is that correct?

cheers

(sorry Mods - tried to keep it short)
:D
Billy
 
brindabella
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Re: Delta wants to be the launch customer for 797

Thu Feb 15, 2018 4:02 am

Revelation wrote:
Boeing itself has made it clear they understand the tiny window they need to hit.


Hmmm. :scratchchin:

I don't think it is unfair to characterise your ongoing attitude to Boeing's ability to hit this "tiny window" as being -- frankly -- skeptical .

I am sensing that this skepticism may be on the wane, at least to some degree?

:stirthepot:

:D

cheers Bill
Billy
 
PHLCVGAMTK
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Re: Delta wants to be the launch customer for 797

Thu Feb 15, 2018 7:13 am

If the 797 has an uncontested niche, it's because the A321 works as a 757 replacement, but doesn't work as a 767 replacement. The A330 has the advantage of being available right now, but the A339 is a lot of aircraft, and overcapable on most 767 missions. (The 787-8 is *way* too much aircraft.) DL also has the major advantage of having a relatively young 767 fleet, and TechOps are wizards at keeping middle-aged and elderly planes airworthy. Contrast to AA, which also has lots of 767s: they tend to be much older, and already declining in reliability. Even if the 797 is a better replacement for AA's 763s, AA can't wait ten years, especially as it introduces more 767 routes like PHL-PRG and PHL-BUD at the same time as it retires the 763s needed to fly them. AA probably has to order A339s soon, but DL can bide its time and demand deep launch customer discounting from Boeing in exchange for keeping its 767s flying until the 797 exists. If Boeing doesn't play ball at a price DL likes, it's over to Airbus for a top-up order of A330neos.

The problem for Boeing is that "767 replacement" is not a very large market by itself, and it's even smaller if you wait 10-12 years. It's not clear how Boeing expands the 797 out of that niche without fully cannibalizing the 787-8, or without an advance in engine tech that is also available to Airbus to retrofit onto the A321/322. But to be clear, this problem is not a problem for DL; DL is more than happy if it can get a great deal at the same time as it encourages Boeing to score another own-goal.
 
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LAX772LR
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Re: Delta wants to be the launch customer for 797

Thu Feb 15, 2018 7:47 am

Arion640 wrote:
Nicoeddf wrote:
Arion640 wrote:

We don't know for sure what discussions have gone on. I'm sure if it would of been possible to produce most potential MOM customers would of been interested.

And to be honest, i'm not sure if your statement makes much sense "powered by an engine that manufacturer is forecasting to make" ????


Pretty obvious he meant to say "powered by an engine that NO manufacturer is forecasting to make". And right he is.


He helps me out by telling me I don't make any sense, so naturally I'm just returning the favour.

Of course, the difference being that one was a typo, and the other a complete dearth of logic... so there's that.
Last edited by LAX772LR on Thu Feb 15, 2018 7:53 am, edited 2 times in total.
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
Arion640
Posts: 1980
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Re: Delta wants to be the launch customer for 797

Thu Feb 15, 2018 7:50 am

LAX772LR wrote:
Arion640 wrote:
Nicoeddf wrote:

Pretty obvious he meant to say "powered by an engine that NO manufacturer is forecasting to make". And right he is.


He helps me out by telling me I don't make any sense, so naturally I'm just returning the favour.

Of course, the difference being that one was a typo, and the other a complete dearth of logic... so there's that.


Still thought I'd let you know to help you out. Got to get these things right see.
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