c933103
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Re: Update: Hawaiian signs 787 LOI

Wed Mar 07, 2018 1:21 am

brian415 wrote:
hz747300 wrote:
Maybe they can launch HKG after the 789s arrive.

Some other possibilities are PER, YUL (maybe seasonal), DTW (seasonal), BNA (seasonal). SHA could use another frequency (since only one carrier operates it) and would depend on gubmint approval.

Some "thinking out-of-the-box" seasonal "sub-daily" destinations are: SCL, EZE and MEX.

I don't think there are any more frequency available for their flight to Shanghai according to bilateral treaty
 
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lightsaber
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Re: A330-800 out, B787-9 in at Hawaiian? -Leeham

Wed Mar 07, 2018 1:22 am

Revelation wrote:
HA reported on 22 Feb that the A338 order was still in place ( https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... ow-446147/ ) but now FG tells us it was cancelled on 27 Feb ( https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... or-446506/ ).

mjoelnir wrote:
A firm order of 6 A330-800 is a fact. The first frames are in Production. There must have been payments, both when the order was firmed (down payments moved from A350-800 to A330-800), and progress payments should have been made, as the first two frames entered production.

Together with the 787 Hawaiian rendering, that disappeared fast from the Boeing site, I can only assume that somebody got optimistic at Boeing and whispered some secrets, that are not backed up by facts.

Time to walk this one back.

zeke wrote:
None of this changes my previous assertion, Boeing, Airbus, and Hawaiian are public companies, if there has been a material change, they cannot “fudge” it, they required to make full disclosure to the market. We have seen no such disclosure.

And this one...

PlanesNTrains wrote:
I understand. He broke the news. He needed to clarify. He created a situation where the airline had to come out and deny it. I'm not bothered by that - I'm just wondering why anyone owes him an apology for tweeting what he did then having to correct it?

I agree no one owes him an apology, nor does he owe us an apology. His original story said "no agreements were signed" which to me tells us that the situation was not 100% firm. It's regrettable that he said the A338 deal was already cancelled when it really was not, but his update just said it was "to be cancelled" so his update did in fact reflect the true situation.

So please confirm the A338 is cancelled? It is one thing to have a 788 LOI, it is much more to cancel the only A338 order.

To others:
I bet Boeing pursues AirAsia next. The A330NEO is so late customers must have cancellation rights.

Why isn't everyone talking about the switch to GE engines? That is huge!

Lightsaber
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c933103
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Re: A330-800 out, B787-9 in at Hawaiian? -Leeham

Wed Mar 07, 2018 1:26 am

lightsaber wrote:
So please confirm the A338 is cancelled? It is one thing to have a 788 LOI, it is much more to cancel the only A338 order.

"Hawaiian originally had ordered six of Airbus’s A330-800 model before canceling that deal and considering the Dreamliner and the A330-900 for its long-haul needs, Da Silva said. ", according to Bloomberg
 
Andre3K
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Re: Update: Hawaiian signs 787 LOI

Wed Mar 07, 2018 1:36 am

brian415 wrote:
Andre3K wrote:
All I know is if I'm going to Hawaii in a few years, I know I want to take a HA 787. Congrizats to Boeing.

Why is that? I would much rather be on any Airbus widebody.

An unintended problem for the 787 is they are TOO QUIET! I would much rather hear the ROAR of the engines to drown out things I don't wanna hear... I don't want to involuntarily hear conversations two rows away or hear a crying baby in another class of service. Getting a GOOD NAP is much harder on a 787! Music is not a good solution either. Why? Because music has melody that is not soothing the way background noise is! ;)



It's a personal preference. But you do bring up an issue, I too would much rather be on a loud plane. A 777 would be ideal, but I've flown on one of those before. I wanna fly on the 787 just because it's "new" to me and it was the first of it's kind.
 
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Re: A330-800 out, B787-9 in at Hawaiian? -Leeham

Wed Mar 07, 2018 1:37 am

c933103 wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
So please confirm the A338 is cancelled? It is one thing to have a 788 LOI, it is much more to cancel the only A338 order.

"Hawaiian originally had ordered six of Airbus’s A330-800 model before canceling that deal and considering the Dreamliner and the A330-900 for its long-haul needs, Da Silva said. ", according to Bloomberg


Point of order. Hawaiian ordered the A350-800 which was cancelled and the less capable A330-800 substituted by Airbus.
 
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Re: A330-800 out, B787-9 in at Hawaiian? -Leeham

Wed Mar 07, 2018 1:38 am

lightsaber wrote:
Why isn't everyone talking about the switch to GE engines? That is huge!

Lightsaber


Maybe because as a passenger, that matters much less than what type of plane you are on?
 
c933103
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Re: A330-800 out, B787-9 in at Hawaiian? -Leeham

Wed Mar 07, 2018 1:41 am

RickNRoll wrote:
c933103 wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
So please confirm the A338 is cancelled? It is one thing to have a 788 LOI, it is much more to cancel the only A338 order.

"Hawaiian originally had ordered six of Airbus’s A330-800 model before canceling that deal and considering the Dreamliner and the A330-900 for its long-haul needs, Da Silva said. ", according to Bloomberg


Point of order. Hawaiian ordered the A350-800 which was cancelled and the less capable A330-800 substituted by Airbus.

The wording seems to imply they again cancelled 338 before looking at this round RFP
 
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Re: Update: Hawaiian signs 787 LOI

Wed Mar 07, 2018 1:43 am

brian415 wrote:
Some "thinking out-of-the-box" seasonal "sub-daily" destinations are: SCL, EZE and MEX.

There were rumors many months ago that AM was considering offering MEX-HNL flights on the 788. Obviously it was only rumors, but in connection with a hypothetical MEX-HNL flight, I have to wonder who would be in a better position to offer this flight: AM or HA? Personally, I feel this is not an auspicious route. Perhaps some charter flights a few times per year with the cooperation of a vacation services provider that could offer premium or semi-premium accomodation packages at interesting prices could work, but I don't think the demand exists yet for regularly scheduled service. Of course from an emotional perspective a nonstop to HNL from MEX would be amazing on either AM or HA, but even more so on HA. Alas!
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Re: Update: Hawaiian signs 787 LOI

Wed Mar 07, 2018 1:45 am

Andre3K wrote:
brian415 wrote:
Andre3K wrote:
All I know is if I'm going to Hawaii in a few years, I know I want to take a HA 787. Congrizats to Boeing.

Why is that? I would much rather be on any Airbus widebody.

An unintended problem for the 787 is they are TOO QUIET! I would much rather hear the ROAR of the engines to drown out things I don't wanna hear... I don't want to involuntarily hear conversations two rows away or hear a crying baby in another class of service. Getting a GOOD NAP is much harder on a 787! Music is not a good solution either. Why? Because music has melody that is not soothing the way background noise is! ;)



It's a personal preference. But you do bring up an issue, I too would much rather be on a loud plane. A 777 would be ideal, but I've flown on one of those before. I wanna fly on the 787 just because it's "new" to me and it was the first of it's kind.

Download some white noise and play that.
 
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Re: Update: Hawaiian signs 787 LOI

Wed Mar 07, 2018 1:53 am

Andre3K wrote:
All I know is if I'm going to Hawaii in a few years, I know I want to take a HA 787. Congrizats to Boeing.


My thoughts exactly! I hope they send those 787s here to SAN! (although it is nice to see airbus widebodies at our little airport)
 
Kumulani
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Re: Update: Hawaiian signs 787 LOI

Wed Mar 07, 2018 2:00 am

brian415 wrote:
Andre3K wrote:
All I know is if I'm going to Hawaii in a few years, I know I want to take a HA 787. Congrizats to Boeing.

Why is that? I would much rather be on any Airbus widebody. (Let's keep Air Asia cruel's seating layout out of scope for this discussion). The only exceptions of Boeing widebody I am happy to fly are: any 767, 777 on DL, non-retrofitted 772 on UA, or 787 on JL. Even 747s are marginally more comfortable than the nine abreast 787s.

It is unfortunate that Boeing did not "sabotage" cabin width to cause 787s to fit 8 abreast ONLY. They should have made the cabin 6 inches more narrow. Alternately, if they had certified the aircraft to DISALLOW cabin insulation removal, it may also have done the trick! Thicker insulation that doesn't make the aircraft too quiet would have been ideal, which gets me to my next point ...

An unintended problem for the 787 is they are TOO QUIET! I would much rather hear the ROAR of the engines to drown out things I don't wanna hear... I don't want to involuntarily hear conversations two rows away or hear a crying baby in another class of service. Getting a GOOD NAP is much harder on a 787! Music is not a good solution either. Why? Because music has melody that is not soothing the way background noise is! ;)


This doesn't make sense... you say you like Airbus widebodies but then that the 787 is too quiet? Airbus widebodies are much quieter than the 787.
 
Kumulani
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Re: Update: Hawaiian signs 787 LOI

Wed Mar 07, 2018 2:02 am

JAAlbert wrote:
Andre3K wrote:
All I know is if I'm going to Hawaii in a few years, I know I want to take a HA 787. Congrizats to Boeing.


My thoughts exactly! I hope they send those 787s here to SAN! (although it is nice to see airbus widebodies at our little airport)


SAN is probably only going to see the A321neo going forward.
 
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Re: A330-800 out, B787-9 in at Hawaiian? -Leeham

Wed Mar 07, 2018 2:04 am

lightsaber wrote:
So please confirm the A338 is cancelled?

FlightGlobal's report ( https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... or-446506/ ) said:

Hawaiian cancelled its order for six A330-800s on 27 February, the company confirms.


lightsaber wrote:
It is one thing to have a 788 LOI, it is much more to cancel the only A338 order.

:checkmark:

lightsaber wrote:
Why isn't everyone talking about the switch to GE engines? That is huge!

It's interesting how everyone here is saying that HA was fearful of the issues that RR is having with T1000 engines, yet these frames won't start delivery till 2021 when (one would presume) the RR issues should be ironed out. Thus I think there's more to the story. Hopefully we'll hear more soon.
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Re: Update: Hawaiian signs 787 LOI

Wed Mar 07, 2018 2:06 am

Andre3K wrote:
brian415 wrote:
Andre3K wrote:
All I know is if I'm going to Hawaii in a few years, I know I want to take a HA 787. Congrizats to Boeing.

Why is that? I would much rather be on any Airbus widebody.

An unintended problem for the 787 is they are TOO QUIET! I would much rather hear the ROAR of the engines to drown out things I don't wanna hear... I don't want to involuntarily hear conversations two rows away or hear a crying baby in another class of service. Getting a GOOD NAP is much harder on a 787! Music is not a good solution either. Why? Because music has melody that is not soothing the way background noise is! ;)



It's a personal preference. But you do bring up an issue, I too would much rather be on a loud plane. A 777 would be ideal, but I've flown on one of those before. I wanna fly on the 787 just because it's "new" to me and it was the first of it's kind.


As RickNRoll said the quiet airplane "problem" can be solved by listening to some white noise, whereas my problem can't be solved! :banghead: What am I supposed to do when the crew decides to dim all the windows on a 787 while I'm enjoying a spectacular view in the middle of the day?! The 787 is my least favorite airliner and will remain so until Boeing offers the traditional window shades as an option, I absolutely despise the stupid e-tint windows. :mad:
 
brian415
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Re: Update: Hawaiian signs 787 LOI

Wed Mar 07, 2018 2:12 am

RickNRoll wrote:
Download some white noise and play that.

The problem with recorded white noise is the continuous loopback discontinuity between end and the next beginning.

Since you gave me a great idea, would you like to open a business together? We can call it "Soothing Jet Engine Sounds, LLC". We can use sampling technology to make the loopback ends match without any noticeable jagged edges. We can own equal shares of the company.

One of the challenges I forsee is our future customers may want sounds from "difficult to record" engines, such as those from retired jets or military only aircraft. ;-)
 
brian415
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Re: Update: Hawaiian signs 787 LOI

Wed Mar 07, 2018 2:24 am

L0VE2FLY wrote:
[..] The 787 is my least favorite airliner and will remain so until Boeing offers the traditional window shades as an option, I absolutely despise the stupid e-tint windows. :mad:

Great! We agree that this airframe is a bucket of bolts and/or a non-innovation.
 
CX747
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Re: Update: Hawaiian signs 787 LOI

Wed Mar 07, 2018 2:27 am

Congratulations to Boeing, Hawaiian and GE. Definitely a coup of sorts for Boeing/GE to displace Airbus/RR.
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ClipperYankee
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Re: Update: Hawaiian signs 787 LOI

Wed Mar 07, 2018 2:47 am

As RickNRoll said the quiet airplane "problem" can be solved by listening to some white noise, whereas my problem can't be solved! :banghead: What am I supposed to do when the crew decides to dim all the windows on a 787 while I'm enjoying a spectacular view in the middle of the day?! The 787 is my least favorite airliner and will remain so until Boeing offers the traditional window shades as an option, I absolutely despise the stupid e-tint windows. :mad:[/quote]


And the dimmable windows are the reason the 787 is MY favorite airliner because at least the crew can't make you close the shades all the way down like they do in most of my non-787 flights. Also, I've yet to have a crew lock them in the fully dim position.
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Re: Update: Hawaiian signs 787 LOI

Wed Mar 07, 2018 2:55 am

Pretty sure Airbus will find buyers for the A338 frames already built but what does this do for the future of that variant? I expect it will be kept on offer but I'd not be surprised if all or nearly all future A330NEO orders are for the -900. You'd think, given the huge prior success of the A332, that there would be some demand for this variant but maybe the improvement in the A339's range have all but obviated the rationale for buying the A338. By far, most operators seem to want the extra seats as opposed to the extra range.
 
QXAS
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Re: Update: Hawaiian signs 787 LOI

Wed Mar 07, 2018 2:58 am

Congratulations to HA, Boeing and GE!!! Wait GE? That was a shock! HAs current fleet is RR on the A330 and 717 and P&W on the A321. I see two possibilities. One, GE is quite superior to RR. Two, Boeing is much further along on 797 and GE is an engine front runner and HA sees 797 in their future. I’m betting on option one, but if it’s option two, that would be exciting.
In terms of configuration, I don’t see a 2-4-2 Y but maybe they will utilize a 2-4-2 Y+/W cabin.
HA isn’t upset with Airbus over the A321neo. They are upset with P&W. The GE engine choice is the most surprising part of this development. RR issues should be solved by 2021.
It is interesting how some posters tend to disappear when things don’t go their way. There are fanboys like this on both sides. It’s just funny when a week ago they were calling this a pipe dream and for the mods to close this thread.
I can’t wait to see these airplanes in 2021. The HA livery would make almost anything look good. It will make the 789, which is IMO the most beautiful plane in the sky, look downright breathtaking.
 
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ER757
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Re: Update: Hawaiian signs 787 LOI

Wed Mar 07, 2018 3:17 am

Congrats to HA and Boeing - what a beautiful sight these birds will be. I have long thought the 787 was the perfect plane for HA, glad they came around to the same line of thinking :smile:
Now dear HA - please, please, PLEASE fly them to SEA! :pray:
 
brian415
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Re: Update: Hawaiian signs 787 LOI

Wed Mar 07, 2018 3:22 am

EddieDude wrote:
brian415 wrote:
Some "thinking out-of-the-box" seasonal "sub-daily" destinations are: SCL, EZE and MEX.

There were rumors many months ago that AM was considering offering MEX-HNL flights on the 788. Obviously it was only rumors, but in connection with a hypothetical MEX-HNL flight, I have to wonder who would be in a better position to offer this flight: AM or HA? [..]

Which of these cities would have the best chance of sustainable, seasonal or sub-daily frequency? MEX, SCL, EZE, (and I'll also throw in, for good measure) ... BOG and GRU? I'm thinking of a few factors to consider:

1. catchment area
2. hub build-up of (potential) partner carriers
3. adequate number of moderate (or high) income earners in catchment area and/or that have affinity to that hub
4. the hub had service to Asia in the past

I am now thinking that GRU is a worthwhile bet. São Paulo used to have one-stop direct service by up to four distinct carriers (though not concurrently): KE to SEL, JL to NRT (or was it NH?), Varig to NRT and VASP to either SEL or NRT. All of these links are gone. Most, if not all, of these routes were 5th freedom with a stop on the West Coast.

HA could restore one-stop direct service to Japan or Korea! The distance for NRT/LAX/GRU is roughly equivalent to NRT/HNL/GRU. Keeping the flight number and airframe the same throughout, would be good for marketing/psychological reasons. NRT or KIX would be obvious top choices on the Asia-side, because SAO has the largest population of Japanese-heritage persons in the world, outside of Japan itself.
 
brian415
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Re: Update: Hawaiian signs 787 LOI

Wed Mar 07, 2018 3:29 am

ER757 wrote:
Congrats to HA and Boeing - what a beautiful sight these birds will be. I have long thought the 787 was the perfect plane for HA, glad they came around to the same line of thinking :smile:
Now dear HA - please, please, PLEASE fly them to SEA! :pray:

Joke: HA can add an occasional frequency to TLS to throw egg on AB's face. :lol:
 
azjubilee
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Re: Update: Hawaiian signs 787 LOI

Wed Mar 07, 2018 3:33 am

Well well well... as I said during this entire frenzy, HA will announce, when HA is ready to announce. And today they did. The Q1 2021 timeframe is timed perfectly for the airline as the 321neo deliveries will have wrapped up and the 767s will be long gone. This order has nothing to do with the 767 as they're still planning on a Q4 2018/Q1 2019 retirement. The 787's will allow HA to have a larger capacity plane, likely with seating just over 300, to deploy in markets where more seats are needed beyond the 278 that are on offer today. The 789 will also give HA the legs to reach beyond the 330, which would include Europe, if HA made a commercial case to fly there. As for GE vs. RR... Dunkerley has always said negotiations for engines and planes are separate. The GE must have been the best engine for HA and their needs, combined with the 789 which ultimately offers what HA wanted in the 358. All quite simple, really. Congrats HA, GE and Boeing!
 
rlo4934
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Re: Update: Hawaiian signs 787 LOI

Wed Mar 07, 2018 3:39 am

Kumulani wrote:
JAAlbert wrote:
Andre3K wrote:
All I know is if I'm going to Hawaii in a few years, I know I want to take a HA 787. Congrizats to Boeing.


My thoughts exactly! I hope they send those 787s here to SAN! (although it is nice to see airbus widebodies at our little airport)


SAN is probably only going to see the A321neo going forward.


Doubt it. Hawaiian is flying the A330 and A321 into SAN currently. Only markets smaller than SAN will get the A321 exclusively.
 
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juliuswong
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Re: Update: Hawaiian signs 787 LOI

Wed Mar 07, 2018 3:58 am

Congratulation to Boeing, GE and HA. The 787 will look stunning in HA's colours. A combination of A330 and 787 is formidable. I guess HA management has some aggressive plan put in place in next decade, hence 787 is opted for instead. One would wonder how much penalty would HA be paying to Airbus for such late cancellation. Perhaps penalty is transferred to still to be delivered A321neos.

As for forum members, stop those childish bashing other members, take a higher road, don't stomp to their low level.
 
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Stitch
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Re: Update: Hawaiian signs 787 LOI

Wed Mar 07, 2018 4:00 am

brian415 wrote:
It is unfortunate that Boeing did not "sabotage" cabin width to cause 787s to fit 8 abreast ONLY.


That would have resulted in the 787 being stillborn as the A330neo and A350 would have effectively sandwiched it and both would have offered better CASM.

The 787 only works because it is 9-abreast and Boeing and the airlines knew it, which is why Boeing made it possible.
 
c933103
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Re: Update: Hawaiian signs 787 LOI

Wed Mar 07, 2018 4:01 am

brian415 wrote:

I am now thinking that GRU is a worthwhile bet. São Paulo used to have one-stop direct service by up to four distinct carriers (though not concurrently): KE to SEL, JL to NRT (or was it NH?), Varig to NRT and VASP to either SEL or NRT. All of these links are gone. Most, if not all, of these routes were 5th freedom with a stop on the West Coast.

SQ used to fly to GRU via BCN.
CA still fly to GRU via MAD from PEK
And I thought CZ was going to fly to South America also?
 
superbizzy73
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Re: Update: Hawaiian signs 787 LOI

Wed Mar 07, 2018 4:10 am

Off topic...can the A338 be used as a basis for a "NG" KC-30?

Also, I agree with the above post by ER757...would absolutely love to see them in SEA!
 
n7371f
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Re: A330-800 out, B787-9 in at Hawaiian? -Leeham

Wed Mar 07, 2018 4:12 am

Boeing already tried Air Asia & the industry scuttlebutt is it didn't work.

lightsaber wrote:
Revelation wrote:
HA reported on 22 Feb that the A338 order was still in place ( https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... ow-446147/ ) but now FG tells us it was cancelled on 27 Feb ( https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... or-446506/ ).

mjoelnir wrote:
A firm order of 6 A330-800 is a fact. The first frames are in Production. There must have been payments, both when the order was firmed (down payments moved from A350-800 to A330-800), and progress payments should have been made, as the first two frames entered production.

Together with the 787 Hawaiian rendering, that disappeared fast from the Boeing site, I can only assume that somebody got optimistic at Boeing and whispered some secrets, that are not backed up by facts.

Time to walk this one back.

zeke wrote:
None of this changes my previous assertion, Boeing, Airbus, and Hawaiian are public companies, if there has been a material change, they cannot “fudge” it, they required to make full disclosure to the market. We have seen no such disclosure.

And this one...

PlanesNTrains wrote:
I understand. He broke the news. He needed to clarify. He created a situation where the airline had to come out and deny it. I'm not bothered by that - I'm just wondering why anyone owes him an apology for tweeting what he did then having to correct it?

I agree no one owes him an apology, nor does he owe us an apology. His original story said "no agreements were signed" which to me tells us that the situation was not 100% firm. It's regrettable that he said the A338 deal was already cancelled when it really was not, but his update just said it was "to be cancelled" so his update did in fact reflect the true situation.

So please confirm the A338 is cancelled? It is one thing to have a 788 LOI, it is much more to cancel the only A338 order.

To others:
I bet Boeing pursues AirAsia next. The A330NEO is so late customers must have cancellation rights.

Why isn't everyone talking about the switch to GE engines? That is huge!

Lightsaber
 
brian415
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Re: Update: Hawaiian signs 787 LOI

Wed Mar 07, 2018 4:21 am

Stitch wrote:
brian415 wrote:
It is unfortunate that Boeing did not "sabotage" cabin width to cause 787s to fit 8 abreast ONLY.

That would have resulted in the 787 being stillborn as the A330neo and A350 would have effectively sandwiched it and both would have offered better CASM.

The 787 only works because it is 9-abreast and Boeing and the airlines knew it, which is why Boeing made it possible.

Drats! Yes, I figured, but I had to ask. In that case, Boeing should've widened the fuselage by 3 inches and the drag impact would be marginal.
 
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ElroyJetson
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Re: Update: Hawaiian signs 787 LOI

Wed Mar 07, 2018 4:57 am

KarelXWB wrote:
Once again, Leeham proves to be well informed. A reliable source of information.



Agreed. Leeham which many claim is biased toward Airbus had no logical reason to falsify this story. But I guess folks will either believe or disbelieve things when their hopes and/or emotions are involved.

My congratulations to Boeing. Though only at this point a 10 plane order, it is a big win for Boeing with a customer that currently flies a nearly all Airbus wide body fleet.

I expect Airbus now to very aggressively attempt to sell the 338 and will put their full resources behind marketing the 338. I would not count Airbus or the 338 out.
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Kno
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Re: Update: Hawaiian signs 787 LOI

Wed Mar 07, 2018 5:11 am

That's a shame. I suppose the 787 is a nice ride but the plane spotter in me is more interested in the visual appeal and the 787 is a hideous looking machine.
 
brian415
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Re: Update: Hawaiian signs 787 LOI

Wed Mar 07, 2018 5:26 am

Everyone has so much helpful information. I appreciate your kindness and generosity with sharing! I mean that from the bottom of my heart! ♡

Regrets for soundin mushy 'n all dat!
 
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flee
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Re: Update: Hawaiian signs 787 LOI

Wed Mar 07, 2018 5:40 am

ElroyJetson wrote:
I expect Airbus now to very aggressively attempt to sell the 338 and will put their full resources behind marketing the 338. I would not count Airbus or the 338 out.

I don't think Airbus will just waste resources like that, if there is no chance of winning orders! But yes, they will be aggressively marketing the A330neo family to those airlines that need quick deliveries - both the B787 and A350 have very limited delivery slots. Boeing recognised that one of the reasons for the slow B787 sales was due to the lack of delivery slots. That was why they increased the production rate to 14 as that meant that nearer term delivery slots become available - consequently, they won many new orders.

Airbus should take note of that and pitch the A330neo at customers who urgently need aircraft quickly. As the same time, they also need to make sure that the prices are competitive. Note that HA opted for GE engines. Perhaps, GE were able to offer a far better price for their engines than RR could for the brand new Trent 7000.
 
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TheRedBaron
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Re: Update: Hawaiian signs 787 LOI

Wed Mar 07, 2018 5:47 am

Great news to GE ! The 789 will look fantastic in HA colors. Its a bummer to see the 338 orphaned when is such a capable aircraft ... guess they want to fill the extra seats, I guess the 3-3-3 was a non-factor against the 2-4-2 of the European product.

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NeBaNi
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Re: Update: Hawaiian signs 787 LOI

Wed Mar 07, 2018 5:48 am

Congrats to Boeing and HA! The 787-9 rendering looks gorgeous in HA's livery and can't wait to see these birds at LAX!
 
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juliuswong
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Re: Update: Hawaiian signs 787 LOI

Wed Mar 07, 2018 6:04 am

For those saying Boeing will try persuading AirAsia to switch over, it ain't gonna happen in next decade or maybe even lifetime. Tony Fernandes has a very very close relationship with Airbus, especially sales team. He mentioned this several times in his autobiography. Unless Airbus management burn bridges with AirAsia, it will remain solely Airbus for now and into next decade. They weren't really impressed with Boeing last time when AirAsia issued RFP for 100 narrowbodies, that somehow 'cement' AirAsia view on Boeing.
 
brian415
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Re: Update: Hawaiian signs 787 LOI

Wed Mar 07, 2018 6:07 am

ElroyJetson wrote:
Once again, Leeham proves to be well informed. A reliable source of information.

Yay! Leeham has the pulse on everything!

KarelXWB wrote:
I expect Airbus now to very aggressively attempt to sell the 338 and will put their full resources behind marketing the 338. I would not count Airbus or the 338 out.

Now, the interesting question arises! When AB aggressively markets the 338 at firesale $$, would the then greater price disparity for a "model-up" difference be irksome to customers that have firm orders for the bigger airframe? Also, would prospective buyers for the 339 ditch the bigger aircraft because the smaller aircraft all of a sudden seems like a good deal (of course, relatively speaking). Would BA take advantage of the consternation and upheaval that may arise by the disruption that Boeing itself authored/engineered to muck up AB? :roll:

It could very well be that BA has much stronger team of Economics theoreticians that know GAME THEORY inside and out, than, let's say, their legal team that is trying to strategize (to no avail) erecting trade obstacles!
 
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aemoreira1981
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Re: Update: Hawaiian signs 787 LOI

Wed Mar 07, 2018 6:25 am

Air Canada recently sold two of its 787-9s to GECAS and leased them back, with GECAS paying $351M for two frames, netting a $8 million profit per frame in exchange for leasing them back. (Two later sale-leasebacks were later conducted also from the Air Canada order book with Air Lease Corporation, although I can't find out how much was paid for them---all of the MSNs indicate that all of the 789s were originally Air Canada's order book.) Why I bring this up: if the price being quoted to Hawaiian is in the $115M range, Hawaiian would be crazy to not negotiate some lucrative sale-leasebacks or JOLCO (Japanese operating lease with a call option) for these frames, as any lessor will be paying significantly more than what HA is being quoted for these frames in a sale-leasbeack.
 
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PolarRoute
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Re: Update: Hawaiian signs 787 LOI

Wed Mar 07, 2018 7:27 am

So HA did sign up for 789 eventually. Congrats to both B and HA.

And now I have to wonder, what will come of 338? MRTT is very shallow market, if there is any in the near future, and I would assume those Chinese orders are long way down the road as well since their 332s are yet to reach the replacement cycle. Maybe a great chance for UA to get a great deal?
 
MSPNWA
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Re: Update: Hawaiian signs 787 LOI

Wed Mar 07, 2018 7:29 am

Four things:

1) An HA 787 is going to beautiful, and I'll want to fly on one. The thought of flying a 787 to Hawaii sounds amazing.

2) Big win for Boeing. It certainly looked like HA was fully onboard the Airbus train, and Boeing has swooped in to flip the switch and steer it in a different direction.

3) The HA saga illustrates how Airbus has a problem with widebodies under about 300 seats in a common configuration. If you think about the A358 that HA originally ordered and the 789, there's really no comparison. The 789 is the sweet spot for that sized aircraft. The economics are excellent, and it has the capability of reaching nearly any city-pair that has the necessary demand. The A358 and A338 really didn't have a chance with HA when you think about it.

4) Leeham is proven right again. I think people take official corporate communications far too seriously. They only say what they need to say. Insiders will have the real story first before it's confirmed.
 
c933103
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Re: Update: Hawaiian signs 787 LOI

Wed Mar 07, 2018 7:56 am

https://www.ausbt.com.au/hawaiian-airli ... oeing-787s
HA say 787 will replace some of their 332 and will be able to take them to new destinations in Asia/Pacific region
 
JayinKitsap
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Re: A330-800 out, B787-9 in at Hawaiian? -Leeham

Wed Mar 07, 2018 8:07 am

cledaybuck wrote:
PlanesNTrains wrote:
ikramerica wrote:
Hamilton was wrong in that they didn’t cancel when he first broke the news. But by the time Zeke was insisting that he changed his information 4 days ago, HA had by then already canceled the A338...


The timing of the cancellation is curious to me in that the 787 order isn't firm yet. Why cancel without a firm 787 deal in place? Some have suggested Boeing is paying cancellation penalties for HA (though we don't know if they exist or if that's true), but I'd think they'd get a signed deal before nixing the A338 order first.

Guess it doesn't really matter. It's not like it was a secret at this point anyhow.
I wonder if March 1 was a significant date they had to cancel by?


Or a really big bill due by March 1?
 
WIederling
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Re: A330-800 out, B787-9 in at Hawaiian? -Leeham

Wed Mar 07, 2018 8:08 am

Polot wrote:
As I noted in th other thread, interesting that they selected GE and not RR (which powers their A332s and would power their A338 if they keep that order).


GECAS financing?
Murphy is an optimist
 
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seahawk
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Re: Update: Hawaiian signs 787 LOI

Wed Mar 07, 2018 8:08 am

Amazing news and a wise decision.
 
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Revelation
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Re: Update: Hawaiian signs 787 LOI

Wed Mar 07, 2018 11:52 am

juliuswong wrote:
For those saying Boeing will try persuading AirAsia to switch over, it ain't gonna happen in next decade or maybe even lifetime. Tony Fernandes has a very very close relationship with Airbus, especially sales team. He mentioned this several times in his autobiography. Unless Airbus management burn bridges with AirAsia, it will remain solely Airbus for now and into next decade. They weren't really impressed with Boeing last time when AirAsia issued RFP for 100 narrowbodies, that somehow 'cement' AirAsia view on Boeing.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-airb ... SKCN1GI289 suggests the order is secure but "analysts say that could change if it feels too exposed as the dominant buyer.".

See also: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1388401
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Motorhussy
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Re: Update: Hawaiian signs 787 LOI

Wed Mar 07, 2018 12:00 pm

seahawk wrote:
Amazing news and a wise decision.


The wisdom of their decision will be a financial one and appears to me that Boeing, GE, GECAS have pulled out all stops for this. Be interesting to find out just what kind of a deal they cut. It’ll be quite the signal to other customers looking for Boeing to sharpen their pencils, if not drop their pants.
come visit the south pacific
 
LY777
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Re: Update: Hawaiian signs 787 LOI

Wed Mar 07, 2018 12:03 pm

Question: when will HA get their 787s? :)
Flown:717,727,732,734,735,738,73H,742/744/748,752,762/2ER/763/3ER,772/77E/773/77W, 788, 789, DC8,DC10,MD83, L1011, A3B2,A319,A320,A321,A332,A343,A388
 
c933103
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Re: Update: Hawaiian signs 787 LOI

Wed Mar 07, 2018 12:09 pm

LY777 wrote:
Question: when will HA get their 787s? :)

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