Moderators: richierich, ua900, PanAm_DC10, hOMSaR
mariner wrote:Not that he should have been chucked off the plane for it, but how did they know he was speaking Arabic?
mariner
jubguy3 wrote:Arabic has a certain set of linguistic features that make it easy to distinguish from other languages. Examples of this are frequent glottal stops and the preposition "al-", which is visible in English words like algebra and alcohol.
mariner wrote:Not that he should have been chucked off the plane for it, but how did they know he was speaking Arabic?
mariner
pdt2f wrote:So you’re upset he was profiled because of the language he spoke, and you follow that with insulting the tens of thousands of employees and hundreds of millions of customers that fly southwest? If the southwest staff who had this person removed from the plane lobbed a grenade of prejudice, you just launched an atom bomb of it.
stl07 wrote:Sort of OT, but for some reason, I always get the vibe that WN (and G4) are sort of more backward, unopen airlines as a whole.
einsteinboricua wrote:There was also a case of an economist being taken off a flight because he was doing math.
bagoldex wrote:Hope he wins. The clientele and staff of Southwest are truly the worst America has to offer.
GatorClark wrote:It has been confirmed that the 9/11 hijackers made phone calls IN ARABIC, right before their plane departed and while I ABSOLUTELY DON'T agree with profiling or discrimination of any sort, it is completely understandable why that might have created an atmosphere of uneasiness and discomfort among the other passengers and crew.
GatorClark wrote:It has been confirmed that the 9/11 hijackers made phone calls IN ARABIC, right before their plane departed and while I ABSOLUTELY DON'T agree with profiling or discrimination of any sort, it is completely understandable why that might have created an atmosphere of uneasiness and discomfort among the other passengers and crew.
mariner wrote:jubguy3 wrote:Arabic has a certain set of linguistic features that make it easy to distinguish from other languages. Examples of this are frequent glottal stops and the preposition "al-", which is visible in English words like algebra and alcohol.
I speak three languages, all Latin based, but I don't find Arabic all that easy to distinguish unless I'm concentrating. And - I suggest - most people wouldn't know what a glottal stop is.
mariner
einsteinboricua wrote:mariner wrote:Not that he should have been chucked off the plane for it, but how did they know he was speaking Arabic?
mariner
Likely the "inshallah" phrase.
JRL3289 wrote:A lot of people have difficulty distinguishing between the various English-speaking accents of the world.
JRL3289 wrote:mariner wrote:jubguy3 wrote:Arabic has a certain set of linguistic features that make it easy to distinguish from other languages. Examples of this are frequent glottal stops and the preposition "al-", which is visible in English words like algebra and alcohol.
I speak three languages, all Latin based, but I don't find Arabic all that easy to distinguish unless I'm concentrating. And - I suggest - most people wouldn't know what a glottal stop is.
mariner
A lot of people have difficulty distinguishing between the various English-speaking accents of the world. I'd be shocked if the average American were able to actually distinguish Arabic amongst a grouping of other widely spoken languages. What makes it even more complicated is that Arabic isn't really a spoken language but rather a continuum of mutually intelligible languages (or dialects, depending on the linguist you speak with) linked together by a standardized form used in writing and broadcast media; I can guarantee the average person doesn't realize that.einsteinboricua wrote:mariner wrote:Not that he should have been chucked off the plane for it, but how did they know he was speaking Arabic?
mariner
Likely the "inshallah" phrase.
"Inshallah" in Arabic has about as much religious connotation as the "God bless you" does in English when someone sneezes; it is used ad-nauseam when discussing any future events. It's also used quite a bit by non-Arabic speakers to underscore the hopeful nature of a sentiment... quite common among Turks, Persians and, to a lesser extent, Israelis. If this is indeed the reason for removing the passenger - which it seems to be, otherwise Southwest would have responded with something other than a boilerplate response - then Southwest would be smart to simply settle and put this to bed.
GatorClark wrote:bagoldex wrote:Hope he wins. The clientele and staff of Southwest are truly the worst America has to offer.
Excuse me? I wasn't aware that you KNOW me personally. I am a very loyal Southwest customer and unless you know everything about me and what kind of person I am, I suggest you amend your statement. BTW, I also have quite a few friends that work for Southwest and are some of the most upstanding people I know and do whatever it takes to make their customers happy as that is how the believe that they (themselves and Southwest) distinguish themselves from the competition. It has been confirmed that the 9/11 hijackers made phone calls IN ARABIC, right before their plane departed and while I ABSOLUTELY DON'T agree with profiling or discrimination of any sort, it is completely understandable why that might have created an atmosphere of uneasiness and discomfort among the other passengers and crew.
GatorClark wrote:bagoldex wrote:Hope he wins. The clientele and staff of Southwest are truly the worst America has to offer.
Excuse me? I wasn't aware that you KNOW me personally. I am a very loyal Southwest customer and unless you know everything about me and what kind of person I am, I suggest you amend your statement. BTW, I also have quite a few friends that work for Southwest and are some of the most upstanding people I know and do whatever it takes to make their customers happy as that is how the believe that they (themselves and Southwest) distinguish themselves from the competition. It has been confirmed that the 9/11 hijackers made phone calls IN ARABIC, right before their plane departed and while I ABSOLUTELY DON'T agree with profiling or discrimination of any sort, it is completely understandable why that might have created an atmosphere of uneasiness and discomfort among the other passengers and crew.
GatorClark wrote:It has been confirmed that the 9/11 hijackers made phone calls IN ARABIC, right before their plane departed and while I ABSOLUTELY DON'T agree with profiling or discrimination of any sort, it is completely understandable why that might have created an atmosphere of uneasiness and discomfort among the other passengers and crew.
scbriml wrote:JRL3289 wrote:A lot of people have difficulty distinguishing between the various English-speaking accents of the world.
My wife and I (both English) have had issues making ourselves understood multiple times in the last three weeks in Florida.
CRJ900 wrote:scbriml wrote:JRL3289 wrote:A lot of people have difficulty distinguishing between the various English-speaking accents of the world.
My wife and I (both English) have had issues making ourselves understood multiple times in the last three weeks in Florida.
Are you chavs and sound like Vicky Pollard?
GatorClark wrote:It has been confirmed that the 9/11 hijackers made phone calls IN ARABIC, right before their plane departed and while I ABSOLUTELY DON'T agree with profiling or discrimination of any sort, it is completely understandable why that might have created an atmosphere of uneasiness and discomfort among the other passengers and crew.
TheOldDude wrote:So far we only know the one side in the lawsuit. Taking sides based on that displays the bias of the observer rather than a rational analysis of the facts. Since profiling is just as wrong as prejudging I'll wait to hear from the other side before throwing any stones.
ei146 wrote:The "uneasiness and discomfort" you mentioned is completly irrational. It should not be supported but confronted.
ei146 wrote:May I respectfully suggest the data for 2001 is omitted on both counts? I see 9/11 as a one-off event, never to be forgotten, but also never to be repeated.According to numbers of your own government between 2001 and 2014, 440,095 people died by firearms on US soil. At the same time there were 3,043 people killed by acts of terrorismn in the USA including 9/11,
ei146 wrote:Something is seriously wrong with the risk perception there.
When I am in the USA I feel some discomfort about a number of things. But terrorism is not on the list.
GatorClark wrote:bagoldex wrote:Hope he wins. The clientele and staff of Southwest are truly the worst America has to offer.
Excuse me? I wasn't aware that you KNOW me personally. I am a very loyal Southwest customer and unless you know everything about me and what kind of person I am, I suggest you amend your statement. BTW, I also have quite a few friends that work for Southwest and are some of the most upstanding people I know and do whatever it takes to make their customers happy as that is how the believe that they (themselves and Southwest) distinguish themselves from the competition. It has been confirmed that the 9/11 hijackers made phone calls IN ARABIC, right before their plane departed and while I ABSOLUTELY DON'T agree with profiling or discrimination of any sort, it is completely understandable why that might have created an atmosphere of uneasiness and discomfort among the other passengers and crew.
xdlx wrote:How did the individual, arrived to airport, pass thru TSA, and understood boarding instructions? Did he not speak or understand ANY english?
Was he speaking to another passenger in a "foreign language"?
xdlx wrote:How did the individual, arrived to airport, pass thru TSA, and understood boarding instructions? Did he not speak or understand ANY english?
Was he speaking to another passenger in a "foreign language"?
747-600X wrote:Sooooooooooo... have we established why the passenger was removed yet? We know that he was speaking Arabic and that he was thrown off the plane, right? Has SW commented on why they removed him?
xdlx wrote:How did the individual, arrived to airport, pass thru TSA, and understood boarding instructions? Did he not speak or understand ANY english?
Was he speaking to another passenger in a "foreign language"?
SheikhDjibouti wrote:TheOldDude wrote:So far we only know the one side in the lawsuit. Taking sides based on that displays the bias of the observer rather than a rational analysis of the facts. Since profiling is just as wrong as prejudging I'll wait to hear from the other side before throwing any stones.
That's a convenient way of burying the incident; do you really believe we will hear the other side of this lawsuit anytime before Xmas? 2020.
And BTW - it's racial profiling that's the problem here, not profiling per se.
Standard (non-racial) profiling is what every one of us does, seven days a week. Some of us pretend to be holier than Allah himself, but the truth is we all do it.
Men do it with regard to women, but the smart ones have trained themselves to limit the effects.
Women also do it with regard to men, but either proclaim themselves as feminists, or argue that they are not the slightest bit biased, and then look nervously over their shoulder because, well, you know, you just can't trust most men.... (and they may indeed have a point )
But enough stirring the pot; let's get back on topic. Security guards at airports are inevitably going to utilise profiling as part of their job.
TBH they have my sympathy; it is predominantly a fact that most recent hi-jackings have involved muslim/arabs.
Hang on, I'll just check that assertion.
February 8, 2008: Eagle Airways Flight 2279 - nope, that was a nutcase who just couldn't afford the air fare from NZ to Aus.
April 19, 2009: CanJet Flight 918 - nope, sounds like a Cuban-Jamaican who had smoked a little too much ganja
September 9, 2009: AeroMéxico Flight 576 - er, nope again. Bolivian Jose Flores claimed divine guidance as his motive for the hijack, although local media noted that he had a history of drug- and alcohol-related problems.
January 5, 2011: Turkish Airlines Flight 1754, flying from Oslo to Istanbul when an un-named suspect demanded the plane return to Norway. I can only presume he was a Norwegian Blue, desperately pining to return to his native fjords.
I could go on, but whilst the remaining incidents (2011-2016) all on the surface feature Islamic perps, vaguely Arabic airlines, or exotic destinations, the reality is mostly they can be summed up either as severely intoxicated idiots, or co-pilots having a meltdown. On that subject, Germanwings Flight 9525, is the only incident within the last 10 years that involved any loss of life.
We've come a long way since 9/11, and I'm inclined to suggest that most of us are now more likely to be involved in a practice hi-jacking enacted by security services, or a false alarm, than the real thing. (Fingers crossed I'm not proved wrong anytime soon.)
zrs70 wrote:Help me here. I read the linked article. It sounds like it has less to do with the language spoken and more to do with the substance of the conversation.
There were buzz words that can make people nervous.
If an English speaking person says the word “bomb” - the same result would likely occur.
carljanderson wrote:zrs70 wrote:Help me here. I read the linked article. It sounds like it has less to do with the language spoken and more to do with the substance of the conversation.
There were buzz words that can make people nervous.
If an English speaking person says the word “bomb” - the same result would likely occur.
Farcical. Eqauting allah (and anything sounding close to it) to bomb is asinine.
TC957 wrote:CRJ900 wrote:scbriml wrote:
My wife and I (both English) have had issues making ourselves understood multiple times in the last three weeks in Florida.
Are you chavs and sound like Vicky Pollard?
Ha Ha ! That joke will be lost on our American friends.....
scbriml wrote:JRL3289 wrote:A lot of people have difficulty distinguishing between the various English-speaking accents of the world.
My wife and I (both English) have had issues making ourselves understood multiple times in the last three weeks in Florida.
chicawgo wrote:I read another article on this which mentions that it was another passenger that alerted the flight crew that he spoke Arabic and noticed some concerning language the man was using. If that’s the case, that completely changes the story in my view. I wouldn’t blame the WN crew for at least reporting it to authorities and having him removed from the plane. If it turns out that he said nothing wrong then that passenger should be sued and punished for filing a false claim, etc.
Of course it’s ridiculous and terrible that the victim had to go through this but, until we know all the facts, I don’t think we can blanket blame Southwest. It may be the other passenger that was bigoted and caused the alarm.
Again, I’m not at all saying there wasn’t bigotry here, I’m simply saying that it may not have been on the part of the crew and we shouldn’t be so quick to judge them.
zrs70 wrote:Help me here. I read the linked article. It sounds like it has less to do with the language spoken and more to do with the substance of the conversation.
There were buzz words that can make people nervous.
If an English speaking person says the word “bomb” - the same result would likely occur.
chicawgo wrote:I read another article on this which mentions that it was another passenger that alerted the flight crew that he spoke Arabic and noticed some concerning language the man was using. If that’s the case, that completely changes the story in my view.
CRJ900 wrote:scbriml wrote:JRL3289 wrote:A lot of people have difficulty distinguishing between the various English-speaking accents of the world.
My wife and I (both English) have had issues making ourselves understood multiple times in the last three weeks in Florida.
Are you chavs and sound like Vicky Pollard?
mariner wrote:chicawgo wrote:I read another article on this which mentions that it was another passenger that alerted the flight crew that he spoke Arabic and noticed some concerning language the man was using. If that’s the case, that completely changes the story in my view. I wouldn’t blame the WN crew for at least reporting it to authorities and having him removed from the plane. If it turns out that he said nothing wrong then that passenger should be sued and punished for filing a false claim, etc.
Of course it’s ridiculous and terrible that the victim had to go through this but, until we know all the facts, I don’t think we can blanket blame Southwest. It may be the other passenger that was bigoted and caused the alarm.
Again, I’m not at all saying there wasn’t bigotry here, I’m simply saying that it may not have been on the part of the crew and we shouldn’t be so quick to judge them.
Your apologia for Southwest is very nice, but it misses out on one detail. Even after the man was cleared by police and the FBI, Southwest refused to fly him. They gave him his money back but wouldn't allow him on their aircraft.
http://sanfrancisco.cbslocal.com/2018/0 ... profiling/
"After both the police and the FBI cleared Makhzoomi, Southwest refunded his ticket but refused to book him on another Southwest flight. Makhzoomi found a flight on a different airline and arrived in Oakland eight hours later than planned."
He flew Delta instead.
mariner
SheikhDjibouti wrote:chicawgo wrote:I read another article on this which mentions that it was another passenger that alerted the flight crew that he spoke Arabic and noticed some concerning language the man was using. If that’s the case, that completely changes the story in my view.
Good point.
And you read this.......where?
C'mon, you know how this goes. Or at least come up with a token apology for why you are unable to find this single piece of information that is critical to your whole post. For a start I would expect the law enforcement agents to demand a statement from this mystery witness. Or is he already buried so deep in a witness protection program that his very existence is a state secret?
mariner wrote:chicawgo wrote:I read another article on this which mentions that it was another passenger that alerted the flight crew that he spoke Arabic and noticed some concerning language the man was using. If that’s the case, that completely changes the story in my view. I wouldn’t blame the WN crew for at least reporting it to authorities and having him removed from the plane. If it turns out that he said nothing wrong then that passenger should be sued and punished for filing a false claim, etc.
Of course it’s ridiculous and terrible that the victim had to go through this but, until we know all the facts, I don’t think we can blanket blame Southwest. It may be the other passenger that was bigoted and caused the alarm.
Again, I’m not at all saying there wasn’t bigotry here, I’m simply saying that it may not have been on the part of the crew and we shouldn’t be so quick to judge them.
Your apologia for Southwest is very nice, but it misses out on one detail. Even after the man was cleared by police and the FBI, Southwest refused to fly him. They gave him his money back but wouldn't allow him on their aircraft.
http://sanfrancisco.cbslocal.com/2018/0 ... profiling/
"After both the police and the FBI cleared Makhzoomi, Southwest refunded his ticket but refused to book him on another Southwest flight. Makhzoomi found a flight on a different airline and arrived in Oakland eight hours later than planned."
He flew Delta instead.
mariner
SheikhDjibouti wrote:Good point.
And you read this.......where?
C'mon, you know how this goes. Or at least come up with a token apology for why you are unable to find this single piece of information that is critical to your whole post. For a start I would expect the law enforcement agents to demand a statement from this mystery witness. Or is he already buried so deep in a witness protection program that his very existence is a state secret?
jubguy3 wrote:mariner wrote:Not that he should have been chucked off the plane for it, but how did they know he was speaking Arabic?
mariner
Arabic has a certain set of linguistic features that make it easy to distinguish from other languages. Examples of this are frequent glottal stops and the preposition "al-", which is visible in English words like algebra and alcohol.