winginit
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AA and QF re-file for Joint Venture

Mon Feb 26, 2018 8:46 pm

Dallas New Story Here

Should be interesting. There's a new administration sure but will that translate into a different ruling?

Summary below per AA

American Airlines and Qantas have filed an application with the U.S. Department of Transportation (DOT) seeking approval to form a joint business to better serve customers flying between North America and Australia and New Zealand.The proposed joint business will significantly improve service, stimulate demand and unlock more than $300 million annually in consumer benefits that are not achievable through any other form of cooperation, including:

Up to $221 million in value from expanding codesharing between American and Qantas - opening more connections to more destinations.

Up to $89 million in value by offering a wider range of fare classes across each other's networks, including lower fares and discounts.

In addition, by connecting American and Qantas' complementary international networks in a joint business, our customers will have more seamless connectivity throughout Australasia, and Qantas' customers will have improved connectivity in the U.S.

The joint business will also give American and Qantas the opportunity to launch additional routes between the U.S. and Australia and New Zealand, including new flights to city pairs currently not served by either carrier.

An expanded relationship will also encourage significant improvements in the overall customer experience, including additional frequent flyer benefits and investments in lounges, baggage systems and other infrastructure designed to better serve the carriers' joint customers.

All these benefits will stimulate significant demand for new travel - generating up to 180,000 new trips between the U.S. and Australia and New Zealand every year.

"This is our second DOT application seeking approval to establish a joint business with Qantas. We originally filed for approval in 2015 and DOT tentatively denied the application in November 2016. We were disappointed and viewed that decision as a departure from DOT precedent, but we have taken it as an opportunity to more fully demonstrate the significant consumer benefits associated with the joint business."

The DOT has previously approved 10 similar joint business agreements among international carriers operating around the world, including our own trans-Atlantic and trans-Pacific joint businesses and two between the U.S. and Australasia (United-Air New Zealand and Delta-Virgin Australia).

The DOT review of our new application will likely take several months. We don't expect to make any additional changes to the Qantas relationship during the review period. And while there is a chance we will have to further reduce our cooperation with Qantas and even reduce our own service to Australia and New Zealand if the joint business application is denied, we feel good about our case and optimistic the application will be approved by DOT.

American and Qantas look forward to working together to deliver new routes, a more seamless travel experience and greater access to lower fares under a joint business.
 
ahj2000
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Re: AA and QF re-file for Joint Venture

Mon Feb 26, 2018 10:53 pm

And while there is a chance we will have to further reduce our cooperation with Qantas and even reduce our own service to Australia and New Zealand if the joint business application is denied, we feel good about our case and optimistic the application will be approved by DOT....


Give us the JV or we will shut down routes!
Kidding aside, they do kind of deserve the JV. The other competitors are now combined, so they present a large and decent sized competitor to QAAntas.
-Andrés Juánez
 
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neomax
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Re: AA and QF re-file for Joint Venture

Mon Feb 26, 2018 11:02 pm

ahj2000 wrote:
Kidding aside, they do kind of deserve the JV. The other competitors are now combined, so they present a large and decent sized competitor to QAAntas.


What? AA/QF has no competition from any JV's between the US and Australia. NZ is pretty close, but the only one between the US and Australia is AA/QF.
 
deltal1011man
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Re: AA and QF re-file for Joint Venture

Mon Feb 26, 2018 11:04 pm

ahj2000 wrote:
And while there is a chance we will have to further reduce our cooperation with Qantas and even reduce our own service to Australia and New Zealand if the joint business application is denied, we feel good about our case and optimistic the application will be approved by DOT....


Give us the JV or we will shut down routes!
Kidding aside, they do kind of deserve the JV. The other competitors are now combined, so they present a large and decent sized competitor to QAAntas.

The problem is QF/AA is so much larger than DL/VA and UA/NZ. I think it would give them something like 70% of the market.....? (I can't remember the figure from the last time)

neomax wrote:
ahj2000 wrote:
Kidding aside, they do kind of deserve the JV. The other competitors are now combined, so they present a large and decent sized competitor to QAAntas.


What? AA/QF has no competition from any JV's between the US and Australia. NZ is pretty close, but the only one between the US and Australia is AA/QF.

not sure what you mean....?

Delta and Virgin have a joint venture. Size wise though DL/VA are a blip compared to QF/AA and even QF alone.
 
ShinyAndChrome
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Re: AA and QF re-file for Joint Venture

Mon Feb 26, 2018 11:34 pm

What are the odds of a DOT approval plus caveats like last time?
 
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EK413
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Re: AA and QF re-file for Joint Venture

Tue Feb 27, 2018 12:02 am

Hopefully gets over the line this time around. QF have also come out stating they’ll be pulling out of DFW if the JV is knocked back (I highly doubt will pull out!).

EK413
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getluv
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Re: AA and QF re-file for Joint Venture

Tue Feb 27, 2018 12:08 am

EK413 wrote:
Hopefully gets over the line this time around. QF have also come out stating they’ll be pulling out of DFW if the JV is knocked back (I highly doubt will pull out!).

EK413


In the application, AA said it would remove QF's code on all/most of its domestic services out of DFW and will reduce codeshare destinations by 50% out of LAX should the JV not be approved.
You meant lose, not loose.
 
sq256
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Re: AA and QF re-file for Joint Venture

Tue Feb 27, 2018 12:24 am

neomax wrote:
ahj2000 wrote:
Kidding aside, they do kind of deserve the JV. The other competitors are now combined, so they present a large and decent sized competitor to QAAntas.


What? AA/QF has no competition from any JV's between the US and Australia. NZ is pretty close, but the only one between the US and Australia is AA/QF.


DL/VA (defacto Skyteam) and NZ/UA (Star Alliance) are both in JVs. However, both JVs are small when compared with a QF/AA JV.
 
getluv
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Re: AA and QF re-file for Joint Venture

Tue Feb 27, 2018 12:35 am

sq256 wrote:
neomax wrote:
ahj2000 wrote:
Kidding aside, they do kind of deserve the JV. The other competitors are now combined, so they present a large and decent sized competitor to QAAntas.


What? AA/QF has no competition from any JV's between the US and Australia. NZ is pretty close, but the only one between the US and Australia is AA/QF.


DL/VA (defacto Skyteam) and NZ/UA (Star Alliance) are both in JVs. However, both JVs are small when compared with a QF/AA JV.


Not as much as NZ/UA control between NZ-USA.
You meant lose, not loose.
 
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LAX772LR
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Re: AA and QF re-file for Joint Venture

Tue Feb 27, 2018 12:39 am

neomax wrote:
What? AA/QF has no competition from any JV's between the US and Australia. NZ is pretty close, but the only one between the US and Australia is AA/QF.

Huh? DL/VA is a JV between the USA and Australia.
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
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Web500sjc
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Re: AA and QF re-file for Joint Venture

Tue Feb 27, 2018 12:59 am

LAX772LR wrote:
neomax wrote:
What? AA/QF has no competition from any JV's between the US and Australia. NZ is pretty close, but the only one between the US and Australia is AA/QF.

Huh? DL/VA is a JV between the USA and Australia.


QF on its own provides just as many seats between LAX and Australia as DL/VA provides between the US and Australia. QF has earned a very large share of the market, it’s doubtful QF could get a JV approved with anyone. When we talk about the transatlantic JVs, there are enough competitors that the JVs generally foster competition and more opportunities,alternatively- any South Pacific JV with QF would just lead to a much stronger QF rather than increased service. I am very interested to see how the ultimatum approach goes with the DOT, that’s an approach I don’t think I have seen before.

Contrasting with NZ-UA, I don’t believe anyone was serving NZ-US except NZ (maybe a token QF presence) so there the JV more or less made connections easier between UA and NZ allowing greater access to inland markets- but in no way was there going to be any competition on those routes.
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planemanofnz
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Re: AA and QF re-file for Joint Venture

Tue Feb 27, 2018 1:05 am

If this is approved, I can see the US DOT imposing route guarantees on AA / QF, including a year-round AKL - LAX service on AA, as well as service to more US ports (like BNE - SEA / DFW / ORD on QF).

Cheers,

C..
 
sq256
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Re: AA and QF re-file for Joint Venture

Tue Feb 27, 2018 1:10 am

BNE-SEA would be tricky as SEA are hubs for AS and DL. Can only see BNE-SEA working for QF and/or AA if there's some codeshare deal with AS for feed on the SEA end.
 
sagechan
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Re: AA and QF re-file for Joint Venture

Tue Feb 27, 2018 1:11 am

Basically approval allows AA to take over probably 1 daily between LAX and MEL/BNE, and resume closer to year round service to ALL which would free up aircraft for QF to add new routes. At the expense of going from 4 competitors on the nonstop US Australia/NZ routes (AA/QF/UA&NZ/DL&VA) to 3. But creates a huge size advantage for the 1 world paid as it would likely increase daily seats by about 800 or more (at least 2 additional routes for 4 daily flights)
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jfk777
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Re: AA and QF re-file for Joint Venture

Tue Feb 27, 2018 1:40 am

There is more competition on the Australia route then seems at first blush. Air New Zealand carries the equivalent of one 777 between the USA and Australia via ALK. On the LAX to Sydney route you have five airlines with at least one daily flight. Melbourne to LAX has only one United flight daily and none by Delta or AA plus Qantas. Brisbane to LAX is a Qantas enterprise only. Qantas is the king to Australia, they have A380, two from LAX and once daily from DFW. United now has Houston to Sydney flights along with its SFO & LAX to SYD and LAX to MEL services.

Qantas & AA having a closer relationship is not going to harm Delta, UA and Virgin Aussie. JV or not AA flies a 787 or 777 and QF flies their A380 plus 747 or 787 from LAX to Sydney. AA's market share is the least of all five airlines flying to Australia, if this gets thumbs down from the DOT of the USA Qantas and AA could always take the QF & Emirates route of AA not flying the route like QF will not be flying to Dubai soon.( its Sydney to LHR is via SIN). QF and EK still have a deal for flights to Europe. Whatever the outcome of the decision of the JV AA and Qantas will adapt and thrive.
 
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EK413
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Re: AA and QF re-file for Joint Venture

Tue Feb 27, 2018 2:42 am

getluv wrote:
EK413 wrote:
Hopefully gets over the line this time around. QF have also come out stating they’ll be pulling out of DFW if the JV is knocked back (I highly doubt will pull out!).

EK413


In the application, AA said it would remove QF's code on all/most of its domestic services out of DFW and will reduce codeshare destinations by 50% out of LAX should the JV not be approved.


Thanks for pointing this out I missed it. Certainly justifies QFs statement they ain’t bluffing.

EK413
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RollerRB211
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Re: AA and QF re-file for Joint Venture

Tue Feb 27, 2018 7:11 am

getluv wrote:
EK413 wrote:
Hopefully gets over the line this time around. QF have also come out stating they’ll be pulling out of DFW if the JV is knocked back (I highly doubt will pull out!).

EK413


In the application, AA said it would remove QF's code on all/most of its domestic services out of DFW and will reduce codeshare destinations by 50% out of LAX should the JV not be approved.


what does AA have to gain from this action?
 
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eta unknown
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Re: AA and QF re-file for Joint Venture

Tue Feb 27, 2018 7:34 am

jfk777 wrote:
There is more competition on the Australia route then seems at first blush. Air New Zealand carries the equivalent of one 777 between the USA and Australia via ALK. On the LAX to Sydney route you have five airlines with at least one daily flight. Melbourne to LAX has only one United flight daily and none by Delta or AA plus Qantas. Brisbane to LAX is a Qantas enterprise only. Qantas is the king to Australia, they have A380, two from LAX and once daily from DFW. United now has Houston to Sydney flights along with its SFO & LAX to SYD and LAX to MEL services.


There's also VA 777 BNE/MEL-LAX flights, although not daily. As I indicated in another post, as the QF A380 westbound is weight restricted by around 100 seats, is it any great loss if a 787 can fly DFW-BNE with full capacity instead?
 
smi0006
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Re: AA and QF re-file for Joint Venture

Tue Feb 27, 2018 8:20 am

I confess I don’t quite understand the DOT, obviously QF and AA have a large market share, and have made changes this time around. But NZ/UA seem to face far less competition, yet their JV was approved? UA/NZ fly 77W/772/789 AKL-LAX/SFO/IAH/HNL and only compete with HA and AA seasonally.

QF/AA fly 380s/744/332 to SFO/DFW/LAX/HNL/JFK but equally compete with UA 789 to LAX/SFO/IAH DL/VA 77W/772 to LAX/ALt (does DL still Carey on to ALT) and HA to HNL? Bigger market yet, but more competition?
 
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Re: AA and QF re-file for Joint Venture

Tue Feb 27, 2018 8:40 am

planemanofnz wrote:
If this is approved, I can see the US DOT imposing route guarantees on AA / QF, including a year-round AKL - LAX service on AA, as well as service to more US ports (like BNE - SEA / DFW / ORD on QF).


sq256 wrote:
BNE-SEA would be tricky as SEA are hubs for AS and DL. Can only see BNE-SEA working for QF and/or AA if there's some codeshare deal with AS for feed on the SEA end.


Whether AA or QF, AS would be involved with either a codeshare or just interlining. I have no doubt that AS would jump at the chance to serve as a feeder to another international carrier ex-SEA. It would give pax a reason to stay on AS metal instead of using DL.

For my own sneaky purposes, I would love to see AA being required to fly the BNE-SEA route, but I'm sure it would end up being QF. :stirthepot:
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EK413
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Re: AA and QF re-file for Joint Venture

Tue Feb 27, 2018 8:45 am

RollerRB211 wrote:
getluv wrote:
EK413 wrote:
Hopefully gets over the line this time around. QF have also come out stating they’ll be pulling out of DFW if the JV is knocked back (I highly doubt will pull out!).

EK413


In the application, AA said it would remove QF's code on all/most of its domestic services out of DFW and will reduce codeshare destinations by 50% out of LAX should the JV not be approved.


what does AA have to gain from this action?


Could elaborate as I’m not sure what action you referring?

EK413
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Phosphorus
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Re: AA and QF re-file for Joint Venture

Tue Feb 27, 2018 10:29 am

EK413 wrote:
RollerRB211 wrote:
getluv wrote:

In the application, AA said it would remove QF's code on all/most of its domestic services out of DFW and will reduce codeshare destinations by 50% out of LAX should the JV not be approved.


what does AA have to gain from this action?


Could elaborate as I’m not sure what action you referring?

EK413

I guess the question is -- if JV application is denied, and AA goes through with "remove QF's code on all/most of its domestic services out of DFW and will reduce codeshare destinations by 50% out of LAX should the JV not be approved" -- what's the point of this for AA? It's a threat to DOT -- reduced connectivity and all that. But besides self-harm, what's the purpose?
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Obzerva
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Re: AA and QF re-file for Joint Venture

Tue Feb 27, 2018 10:58 am

I recall they were suggesting last year they were going to re submit the application, did AA and QF deliberately wait until UA launched IAH, so they could argue that there was an extra flight from a competitor to point to as part of “we’re not going to be too big” argument?
 
getluv
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Re: AA and QF re-file for Joint Venture

Tue Feb 27, 2018 11:06 am

Phosphorus wrote:
EK413 wrote:
RollerRB211 wrote:

what does AA have to gain from this action?


Could elaborate as I’m not sure what action you referring?

EK413

I guess the question is -- if JV application is denied, and AA goes through with "remove QF's code on all/most of its domestic services out of DFW and will reduce codeshare destinations by 50% out of LAX should the JV not be approved" -- what's the point of this for AA? It's a threat to DOT -- reduced connectivity and all that. But besides self-harm, what's the purpose?


Actually I misspoke earlier, AA said they'd remove the QF code from 37 of 64 routes out of DFW, all of LAX and 8 from SFO.

The application spends 40-odd pages describing the differences between interlining, codesharing and a JV. Basically the issue is that QF and AA are in effect competitors, so there's no incentive for AA to help QF out of LAX when they have their own flight to fill and vice versa. By having a JV, they can pool all the revenue together and make it easier for their respective customers to connect whether travelling on a AA or QF code.

One of the main things they've changed is that they removed the veto power they had if either wanted to codeshare/interline with other airlines. Which is the issue HA and B6 had.

I don't think JVs are good or bad in the grand scheme of things. They've got a limited lifespan, and if they want it to be renewed they usually have to prove that the JV has been good for consumers. I think the status quo will remain if it didn't get approved, however I think the Trump administration will approve this despite the hollow threats. In saying that, QF have hedged their bets by deepening their relationship with AS.

planemanofnz wrote:
If this is approved, I can see the US DOT imposing route guarantees on AA / QF, including a year-round AKL - LAX service on AA, as well as service to more US ports (like BNE - SEA / DFW / ORD on QF).

If DOT had to impose a route guarantee (which would be unprecedented), it would be that both maintain their SYD-LAX services.
You meant lose, not loose.
 
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par13del
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Re: AA and QF re-file for Joint Venture

Tue Feb 27, 2018 12:31 pm

So this is a win win for the US DOT any which way they rule, if approved, they follow the AA/QF marketing line, if denied, they can claim increased competition on the route since other carriers already on the route will have to pick up the slack left when AA and QF reduce service and connectivity options.
Still don't understand why they would put government in a situation where they cannot make a bad decision for consumers.....
 
UpNAWAy
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Re: AA and QF re-file for Joint Venture

Tue Feb 27, 2018 2:50 pm

One thing seems obvious AA needs the JV to make AUK work year round.
 
evanb
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Re: AA and QF re-file for Joint Venture

Tue Feb 27, 2018 3:40 pm

I do love how the US3 work. They push hard against the ME3 open skies access to the US, but then get government protection to create cartels.
 
RollerRB211
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Re: AA and QF re-file for Joint Venture

Wed Feb 28, 2018 12:11 am

getluv wrote:
The application spends 40-odd pages describing the differences between interlining, codesharing and a JV. Basically the issue is that QF and AA are in effect competitors, so there's no incentive for AA to help QF out of LAX when they have their own flight to fill and vice versa. By having a JV, they can pool all the revenue together and make it easier for their respective customers to connect whether travelling on a AA or QF code.


So AA's point is that they need JV on all routes they where they and a partner operate flights? I see this being used against them in the future.
 
babastud
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Re: AA and QF re-file for Joint Venture

Sat Mar 03, 2018 4:36 am

Many are talking about a BNE-SEA? That's not gonna happen, their is really not much of a market. SEA is not a good connecting spot to or from Australia, and there is limited O+D. UA is better off starting out flights on 787's out of SFO to Mel and Bne. Their is a market! and good connections on the SFO side.
 
ZK-NBT
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Re: AA and QF re-file for Joint Venture

Sat Mar 03, 2018 5:38 am

babastud wrote:
Many are talking about a BNE-SEA? That's not gonna happen, their is really not much of a market. SEA is not a good connecting spot to or from Australia, and there is limited O+D. UA is better off starting out flights on 787's out of SFO to Mel and Bne. Their is a market! and good connections on the SFO side.


BNE-SEA in QF seems unlikely given SYD is well within range, ORD on the other hand with 789’s is more likely from BNE as SYD would be heavily restricted.
 
sq256
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Re: AA and QF re-file for Joint Venture

Sat Mar 03, 2018 6:21 am

BNE-SFO would be a good differentiator for UA when compared to daily BNE-LAX by QF/AA and the 6x weekly VA/DL. They do have the hub at the SFO end to facilitate connections, in addition to the third party agents selling QF or VA interlines at the Australian end with UA tickets.
 
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FlyCaledonian
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Re: AA and QF re-file for Joint Venture

Sat Mar 03, 2018 2:59 pm

I think the easiest way of summarising the JV application is that QF and AA want to go from effectively having hub to spoke flights to hub to hub flights where they can have feed at both ends (i.e. by being metal neutral across the Pacific all flights can be fed by QF in Australia and AA in the USA).

The UA/NZ and DL/VA joint ventures are effectively are doing that now, albeit with more limited feed on the Australasia end than QF could provide with a AA tie-up. Maybe the solution is some sort of guarantee that QF has to allow UA/DL to interline out of SYD/MEL/BNE if required. I think this caveat was put on BA as part of its takeover of BD so that airlines operating into LHR who had previously had BD codeshares didn't necessarily lose access to the wider UK and Ireland.
Let's Go British Caledonian!
 
sq256
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Re: AA and QF re-file for Joint Venture

Sun Mar 04, 2018 1:53 am

UA to some extent already sell limited QF interline tickets on their website. VA interlines on UA iirc is only available via Third Party agents.

DL being JV partners with VA normally sell VA interlines on their website (and vice-versa), although third party agents also sell QF interlines on behalf of DL.
 
IndianicWorld
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Re: AA and QF re-file for Joint Venture

Sun Mar 04, 2018 2:17 am

sq256 wrote:
BNE-SFO would be a good differentiator for UA when compared to daily BNE-LAX by QF/AA and the 6x weekly VA/DL. They do have the hub at the SFO end to facilitate connections, in addition to the third party agents selling QF or VA interlines at the Australian end with UA tickets.


UA have appeared fairly myopic in their decision making to focus on SYD in the Australian market, with 3 x daily, covering 3 of their hubs (LAX, SFO, IAH), with only a daily MEL-LAX outside of that.

UA was in a very strong position to launch MEL-SFO for instance, which would have been a good addition to add to their existing MEL-LAX flights, but instead QF are commencing the route. Given that UA already had the infrastructure set up at MEL, it would have been a logical add instead of a new destination.

BNE-SFO would appear to be outside the thinking of UA at this stage, so QF will likely look at that one before they do.
 
ADrum23
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Re: AA and QF re-file for Joint Venture

Sun Mar 04, 2018 2:56 am

They better approve this. It will be extremely disappointing if QF cuts DFW-SYD if they don't get the JV.
 
Planesmart
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Re: AA and QF re-file for Joint Venture

Sun Mar 04, 2018 3:52 am

The application appears so altruistic and beneficial for customers, but it's protection in another dress (or suit).

Could future JV approvals include a feature really of value to customers, like automatically granting fifth freedom rights on all routes subject to JV's. Then JV's really will be beneficial for customers.
 
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LAX772LR
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Re: AA and QF re-file for Joint Venture

Mon Mar 05, 2018 6:14 am

IndianicWorld wrote:
UA have appeared fairly myopic in their decision making to focus on SYD in the Australian market, with 3 x daily, covering 3 of their hubs (LAX, SFO, IAH), with only a daily MEL-LAX outside of that.

UA was in a very strong position to launch MEL-SFO for instance, which would have been a good addition to add to their existing MEL-LAX flights, but instead QF are commencing the route. Given that UA already had the infrastructure set up at MEL, it would have been a logical add instead of a new destination.

BNE-SFO would appear to be outside the thinking of UA at this stage, so QF will likely look at that one before they do.

...but do you honestly believe that they haven't considered all of the above?

If you're aware of the possibility, they are too.
They've clearly decided that the (opportunity) cost isn't worth the investment at the current time.

That the market from LA is farrrrr larger than from SFO also plays a part in that.
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
Obzerva
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Re: AA and QF re-file for Joint Venture

Mon Mar 05, 2018 8:43 am

ADrum23 wrote:
They better approve this. It will be extremely disappointing if QF cuts DFW-SYD if they don't get the JV.


If QF can't survive without a JV dumping all of their customers in to their partners hub, then that says more about QF than anything.
The fact they have done this for several years now, without a JV, suggests the route is fine, they don't need a JV, it's just advantageous for them to have one.
 
IndianicWorld
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Joined: Mon Jun 04, 2001 11:32 am

Re: AA and QF re-file for Joint Venture

Mon Mar 05, 2018 10:57 am

LAX772LR wrote:
IndianicWorld wrote:
UA have appeared fairly myopic in their decision making to focus on SYD in the Australian market, with 3 x daily, covering 3 of their hubs (LAX, SFO, IAH), with only a daily MEL-LAX outside of that.

UA was in a very strong position to launch MEL-SFO for instance, which would have been a good addition to add to their existing MEL-LAX flights, but instead QF are commencing the route. Given that UA already had the infrastructure set up at MEL, it would have been a logical add instead of a new destination.

BNE-SFO would appear to be outside the thinking of UA at this stage, so QF will likely look at that one before they do.

...but do you honestly believe that they haven't considered all of the above?

If you're aware of the possibility, they are too.
They've clearly decided that the (opportunity) cost isn't worth the investment at the current time.

That the market from LA is farrrrr larger than from SFO also plays a part in that.


I agree, but there’s also the NZ-UA partnership to consider in their decision making.

MEL and BNE are strong markets to feed NZ’s AKL hub, which needs to be considered before any new routes are added.

SYD has seemingly been made the focus for non-stop flight options, with MEL getting a flight to LAX, but the mainland US destinations from AKL (LAX, SFO, IAH) need the feed from Australia.

The interesting thing though will be if UA lose out on corporate contracts due to the commencement of new routes by QF, including the upcoming MEL-SFO. It may make them revisit their strategy if that occurs.
 
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EK413
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Re: AA and QF re-file for Joint Venture

Mon Mar 05, 2018 11:41 am

ADrum23 wrote:
They better approve this. It will be extremely disappointing if QF cuts DFW-SYD if they don't get the JV.


Let’s be clear QF hasn’t threaten to cut DFW. The route will be scaled back to a B789 worst case scenario.

EK413
Good evening, ladies and gentlemen. We are tonight’s entertainment!
 
qf002
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Re: AA and QF re-file for Joint Venture

Mon Mar 05, 2018 12:00 pm

EK413 wrote:
Let’s be clear QF hasn’t threaten to cut DFW. The route will be scaled back to a B789 worst case scenario.


Except for the part where they said "Qantas may be forced to reduce the frequency of, downgauge or potentially cancel its A380 service between Sydney and Dallas/Fort Worth".

It's all hot air of course, but the threat is quite clear.
 
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EK413
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Re: AA and QF re-file for Joint Venture

Mon Mar 05, 2018 12:45 pm

qf002 wrote:
EK413 wrote:
Let’s be clear QF hasn’t threaten to cut DFW. The route will be scaled back to a B789 worst case scenario.


Except for the part where they said "Qantas may be forced to reduce the frequency of, downgauge or potentially cancel its A380 service between Sydney and Dallas/Fort Worth".

It's all hot air of course, but the threat is quite clear.


Hot air trying get the deal over the line & we know QF had DFW on their radar well over a decade ago.

EK413
Good evening, ladies and gentlemen. We are tonight’s entertainment!
 
Kashmon
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Re: AA and QF re-file for Joint Venture

Mon Mar 05, 2018 12:59 pm

This should be blocked to much gain for the corporation not much added choice for the consumer
The government should request that QF/AA to
- Brisbane to SFO/LAX/DFW , and Mel to DFW,LAX,SFO,ORD and bring forward and launch direct MEL/SYD - JFK by 2019 not 2022 and PER-LAX
-start year round service to AKL from LAX and DFW, Seasonal service to CHC from LAX
All launched by end 2019
only then will consumers have more choice and force QF/AA to better connect AUS/NZ to USA

otherwise AA can happily cancel all its code shares ( are they stupid?!!)
 
Kashmon
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Re: AA and QF re-file for Joint Venture

Mon Mar 05, 2018 1:00 pm

EK413 wrote:
ADrum23 wrote:
They better approve this. It will be extremely disappointing if QF cuts DFW-SYD if they don't get the JV.


Let’s be clear QF hasn’t threaten to cut DFW. The route will be scaled back to a B789 worst case scenario.

EK413

good!
another A380 to Asia!
 
Kashmon
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Re: AA and QF re-file for Joint Venture

Mon Mar 05, 2018 1:01 pm

Obzerva wrote:
ADrum23 wrote:
They better approve this. It will be extremely disappointing if QF cuts DFW-SYD if they don't get the JV.


If QF can't survive without a JV dumping all of their customers in to their partners hub, then that says more about QF than anything.
The fact they have done this for several years now, without a JV, suggests the route is fine, they don't need a JV, it's just advantageous for them to have one.

exactly

QF needs to be forced to launch more routes and more connections if it wants a JV
 
Kashmon
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Re: AA and QF re-file for Joint Venture

Mon Mar 05, 2018 1:04 pm

UpNAWAy wrote:
One thing seems obvious AA needs the JV to make AUK work year round.

most people in NZ do not even know AA is an option
in fact most Kiwis think NZ is the only option to NA

AA has feed on both ends
it's marketing is terrible

compare that to Asia
most Kiwis know that SQ.CX,EK are all strong alternatives to NZ
in fact NZ is not the lead player on any Asian route with competition
 
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EK413
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Re: AA and QF re-file for Joint Venture

Mon Mar 05, 2018 1:25 pm

Kashmon wrote:
Obzerva wrote:
ADrum23 wrote:
They better approve this. It will be extremely disappointing if QF cuts DFW-SYD if they don't get the JV.


If QF can't survive without a JV dumping all of their customers in to their partners hub, then that says more about QF than anything.
The fact they have done this for several years now, without a JV, suggests the route is fine, they don't need a JV, it's just advantageous for them to have one.

exactly

QF needs to be forced to launch more routes and more connections if it wants a JV


That’s why QF/AA are pushing forward with the JV. By having a JV, they can pool all the revenue together allowing AA takeover 1 x LAX-MEL, 1 x LAX-BNE. This will free up aircraft for QF MEL-SFO daily, MEL-DFW, BNE-ORD, BNE-SFO, just to name a few.

EK413
Good evening, ladies and gentlemen. We are tonight’s entertainment!
 
rbavfan
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Re: AA and QF re-file for Joint Venture

Mon Mar 05, 2018 5:08 pm

winginit wrote:
Dallas New Story Here

Should be interesting. There's a new administration sure but will that translate into a different ruling?

Summary below per AA

American Airlines and Qantas have filed an application with the U.S. Department of Transportation (DOT) seeking approval to form a joint business to better serve customers flying between North America and Australia and New Zealand.The proposed joint business will significantly improve service, stimulate demand and unlock more than $300 million annually in consumer benefits that are not achievable through any other form of cooperation, including:

Up to $221 million in value from expanding codesharing between American and Qantas - opening more connections to more destinations.

Up to $89 million in value by offering a wider range of fare classes across each other's networks, including lower fares and discounts.

In addition, by connecting American and Qantas' complementary international networks in a joint business, our customers will have more seamless connectivity throughout Australasia, and Qantas' customers will have improved connectivity in the U.S.

The joint business will also give American and Qantas the opportunity to launch additional routes between the U.S. and Australia and New Zealand, including new flights to city pairs currently not served by either carrier.

An expanded relationship will also encourage significant improvements in the overall customer experience, including additional frequent flyer benefits and investments in lounges, baggage systems and other infrastructure designed to better serve the carriers' joint customers.

All these benefits will stimulate significant demand for new travel - generating up to 180,000 new trips between the U.S. and Australia and New Zealand every year.

"This is our second DOT application seeking approval to establish a joint business with Qantas. We originally filed for approval in 2015 and DOT tentatively denied the application in November 2016. We were disappointed and viewed that decision as a departure from DOT precedent, but we have taken it as an opportunity to more fully demonstrate the significant consumer benefits associated with the joint business."

The DOT has previously approved 10 similar joint business agreements among international carriers operating around the world, including our own trans-Atlantic and trans-Pacific joint businesses and two between the U.S. and Australasia (United-Air New Zealand and Delta-Virgin Australia).

The DOT review of our new application will likely take several months. We don't expect to make any additional changes to the Qantas relationship during the review period. And while there is a chance we will have to further reduce our cooperation with Qantas and even reduce our own service to Australia and New Zealand if the joint business application is denied, we feel good about our case and optimistic the application will be approved by DOT.

American and Qantas look forward to working together to deliver new routes, a more seamless travel experience and greater access to lower fares under a joint business.


Sorry but their savings for customers is a joke. What they are really after in the long run is a JV with Anti Trust Immunity. We have seen on the north atlantic that JV do nothing but keep the prices high and allow them to price fix against any new competition.
 
rbavfan
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Joined: Fri Apr 17, 2015 5:53 am

Re: AA and QF re-file for Joint Venture

Mon Mar 05, 2018 5:19 pm

EK413 wrote:
RollerRB211 wrote:
getluv wrote:

In the application, AA said it would remove QF's code on all/most of its domestic services out of DFW and will reduce codeshare destinations by 50% out of LAX should the JV not be approved.


what does AA have to gain from this action?


Could elaborate as I’m not sure what action you referring?

EK413


The filing of the JV would be considered an "Action" legally in many countries.
 
aa1818
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Re: AA and QF re-file for Joint Venture

Mon Mar 05, 2018 6:18 pm

I hope I've captured all the US to OZ/NZ but it seems to me that while an AA/QF JV would have more capacity, they're really not outstripping UA/NZ's JV by that wide a margin.

American-Qantas
LAX-SYD (AA, QF)
LAX-AKL (AA seasonal)
LAX-MEL (QF)
LAX-BNE (QF)
DFW-SYD (QF)
HNL-SYD (QF)
SFO-SYD (QF)

United-Air New Zealand
LAX-SYD (UA)
LAX-AKL (NZ)
LAX-MEL (UA)
IAH-SYD (UA)
IAH-AKL (NZ)
HNL-AKL (NZ)
SFO-AKL (NZ, UA seasonal)
SFO-SYD (UA)

Delta-Virgin
LAX-SYD (DL, VA)
LAX-MEL (VA)
LAX-BNE (VA)

Based on the above (assuming it is correct), DL/VA will be most disadvantaged by the QF/AA JV.
However, UA/NZ enjoy monopolies on IAH-SYD, IAH-AKL, SFO-AKL and HNL-AKL while QF operates two monopoly routes- DFW-SYD and HNL-SYD.
In addition to the above, all AA brings to the table capacity wise is SYD-LAX which every individual carrier except NZ is flying, and LAX-AKL seasonally which NZ flies year-round. So AA adds very little to QF's presence across the pacific.

I see no reason why AA/QF should be denied a JV.

Cheers,
AA1818
“The moment you doubt whether you can fly, you cease for ever to be able to do it.” J.M. Barrie (Peter Pan)

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