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Airbus Signals Job Cuts for A380 and A400M Projects

Mon Mar 05, 2018 9:48 pm

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... y-programs tells us:

Airbus’s management will meet with its European Works Council on Wednesday to explain reductions in the production rates of the A380 superjumbo and A400M military-transport programs and “discuss associated implications for the workforce,” it said in a statement Monday.

Some 3,600 jobs are likely to be affected, with four plants in Germany, one in Spain and one in the U.K. set to be hit, Challenges magazine said, citing people familiar with the matter. Bavaria’s Economy Minister Ilse Aigner suggested the cuts might be achieved without layoffs, Augsburger Allgemeine reported.

Toulouse, France-based Airbus called the reports “excessive,” while declining to comment further before sitting down with worker groups, as is required under national labor laws in some countries.

Hopefully everyone impacted can find another position quickly and painlessly.
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Aesma
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Re: Airbus Signals Job Cuts for A380 and A400M Projects

Tue Mar 06, 2018 6:47 am

If they're willing/able to relocate it shouldn't be a problem.
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seahawk
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Re: Airbus Signals Job Cuts for A380 and A400M Projects

Tue Mar 06, 2018 6:55 am

As it effects only the non-core factories outside France it is a good step to making the company leaner.
 
Peterwk146
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Re: Airbus Signals Job Cuts for A380 and A400M Projects

Tue Mar 06, 2018 1:32 pm

seahawk wrote:
As it effects only the non-core factories outside France it is a good step to making the company leaner.

Please advise what you mean by "non-core"?
 
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Re: Airbus Signals Job Cuts for A380 and A400M Projects

Tue Mar 06, 2018 1:38 pm

Revelation wrote:
Hopefully everyone impacted can find another position quickly and painlessly.


A320 production is planned to increase continuously in the next years.
Looks a bit like screaming wolf .... ?

last time the unions really got excited was when Airbus tried to get rid of paper shufflers. hmm Power8 or thereabouts?
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Noshow
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Re: Airbus Signals Job Cuts for A380 and A400M Projects

Tue Mar 06, 2018 2:06 pm

They have eliminated quite a few white collar jobs, both at group HQ which was put on top of their airplanes division, and within engineering and R and D.
Maybe this is just the usual "less staff = higher stocks" strategy? With overall production set to grow I don't see any real redundancies coming up.

Or: Could it somehow be related to neo engine troubles and lower deliveries than planned before?
 
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Re: Airbus Signals Job Cuts for A380 and A400M Projects

Tue Mar 06, 2018 2:12 pm

I feel for all those affected. For some higher A320neo and A350 production rates will create an opportunity but not for those in some factories in Spain, Germany and the U.K.
 
mjoelnir
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Re: Airbus Signals Job Cuts for A380 and A400M Projects

Tue Mar 06, 2018 2:49 pm

I think it is a storm in a tea cup, pushed by a Airbus unfriendly press in Germany. Some commentators have not yet accepted that the Airbus center has moved to Toulouse. Most of this 3,600 workers will not even face relocation but moving to a different job at the same site. Some will face the need to move to a different site, some will perhaps have to go or be pensioned off.
If we look at Bremen, less work for high lift devices for the A380 and A400M, more work for A350 and A320 families. Similar in XFW were work for the A380 has not be confined to outfitting, but also pre FAL production. But that is compensated by an increase of pre FAL work both for the A320 and A350 families and the fourth FAL for the A320 family is ramping up.
I do not know how the changes will hit Getafe in Spain, but there is also a lot of work not connected to A400M.
 
r2rho
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Re: Airbus Signals Job Cuts for A380 and A400M Projects

Wed Mar 07, 2018 8:39 am

Maybe this is just the usual "less staff = higher stocks" strategy? With overall production set to grow I don't see any real redundancies coming up.

I tend to agree, it could indeed be just aPR statement for investors. Plus, it had been said that the A320 ramp-up would absorb the A380 ramp-down (and in fact already is, the 4th FAL in XFW was established with facilities and workers coming from A380), and even more so if they go beyond 60/month, so something doesn't add up.
For A400M, there may indeed be positions that cannot be absorbed by other programs.

This may end up being less dramatic than it seems in the overall job count, but may be dramatic for some individual sites. It is telling that no jobs are being lost in France, and that this will even further centralize the company around TLS.
 
AirbusA6
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Re: Airbus Signals Job Cuts for A380 and A400M Projects

Wed Mar 07, 2018 11:02 am

Surely any company just moves people around different programmes, depending on which ones are contracting, and which ones are expanding?

If Airbus as a whole was contracting, this would be an issue, but it isn't
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mxaxai
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Re: Airbus Signals Job Cuts for A380 and A400M Projects

Wed Mar 07, 2018 5:04 pm

mjoelnir wrote:
I think it is a storm in a tea cup, pushed by a Airbus unfriendly press in Germany. Some commentators have not yet accepted that the Airbus center has moved to Toulouse. Most of this 3,600 workers will not even face relocation but moving to a different job at the same site. Some will face the need to move to a different site, some will perhaps have to go or be pensioned off.
If we look at Bremen, less work for high lift devices for the A380 and A400M, more work for A350 and A320 families. Similar in XFW were work for the A380 has not be confined to outfitting, but also pre FAL production. But that is compensated by an increase of pre FAL work both for the A320 and A350 families and the fourth FAL for the A320 family is ramping up.
I do not know how the changes will hit Getafe in Spain, but there is also a lot of work not connected to A400M.

I'm not sure if the press is generally unfriendly. They probably just saw the fact that Germany is seeing the largest changes whereas France will remain almost untouched. Particularly the workers in southern germany are likely to be relocated or laid off. (not much work for A320 and A350 done there)

Surely Airbus is not in a position to lose manpower when they are thinking of pushing the A320 to 70 frames per month? Also, laying off workers everywhere but the UK while proclaiming that they want to move wing production away from there due to Brexit? A reckless move imo...
 
estorilm
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Re: Airbus Signals Job Cuts for A380 and A400M Projects

Wed Mar 07, 2018 5:21 pm

mxaxai wrote:

Surely Airbus is not in a position to lose manpower when they are thinking of pushing the A320 to 70 frames per month? Also, laying off workers everywhere but the UK while proclaiming that they want to move wing production away from there due to Brexit? A reckless move imo...

Agreed - maybe they can ship half these people to the 32X FALs and half to P&W :duck:

In all seriousness, not much of a surprise at all. I don't think either program is dead, they just need to maintain an equilibrium for staff vs. demand.
 
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william
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Re: Airbus Signals Job Cuts for A380 and A400M Projects

Wed Mar 07, 2018 5:45 pm

Why are there a job losses regarding the A400? While the A400 was envisioned as a C130 replacement and sales have not been was hope for, the R&D has been written off. It has some orders.
 
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Re: Airbus Signals Job Cuts for A380 and A400M Projects

Wed Mar 07, 2018 5:48 pm

william wrote:
Why are there a job losses regarding the A400? While the A400 was envisioned as a C130 replacement and sales have not been was hope for, the R&D has been written off. It has some orders.

They are reducing production rate to keep the production line open longer in the hope of capturing future sales.
At least that's the spin we get for A400M as well as A380.
Another spin would be that they're pushing the cost of eventual shut down and related write offs to future management teams.
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Re: Airbus Signals Job Cuts for A380 and A400M Projects

Thu Mar 08, 2018 9:14 pm

mxaxai wrote:
mjoelnir wrote:
I think it is a storm in a tea cup, pushed by a Airbus unfriendly press in Germany. Some commentators have not yet accepted that the Airbus center has moved to Toulouse. Most of this 3,600 workers will not even face relocation but moving to a different job at the same site. Some will face the need to move to a different site, some will perhaps have to go or be pensioned off.
If we look at Bremen, less work for high lift devices for the A380 and A400M, more work for A350 and A320 families. Similar in XFW were work for the A380 has not be confined to outfitting, but also pre FAL production. But that is compensated by an increase of pre FAL work both for the A320 and A350 families and the fourth FAL for the A320 family is ramping up.
I do not know how the changes will hit Getafe in Spain, but there is also a lot of work not connected to A400M.

I'm not sure if the press is generally unfriendly. They probably just saw the fact that Germany is seeing the largest changes whereas France will remain almost untouched. Particularly the workers in southern germany are likely to be relocated or laid off. (not much work for A320 and A350 done there)

Some details from https://www.theguardian.com/business/20 ... istol-a380 :

However, trade unionists present at the works council meeting said Britain’s Filton site, as well as plants in Bremen and Augsburg in Germany, and a factory in Sevilla, Spain, would be the main ones affected.

Yvonnick Dreno, a senior Force Ouvrière unionist, said 1,925 jobs would be affected in Germany, 860 in Spain, 465 in Britain and 470 in France. He said redeployment to other programmes would be difficult in Spain and Britain.

It seems mjoelnir has it closest to right: the French workers will make out the best: lowest number impacted, best odds of finding more work. The German workers are impacted heavily but seems they have reasonable opportunities to find a different position. The statement about Spain and Britain is worrisome.

Best wishes to those impacted.
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Planeflyer
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Re: Airbus Signals Job Cuts for A380 and A400M Projects

Thu Mar 08, 2018 11:27 pm

Anyone have any idea if they will be cash flow positive in both programs?

How many RD staff gave benn cut back recently?
 
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Re: Airbus Signals Job Cuts for A380 and A400M Projects

Thu Mar 08, 2018 11:32 pm

Revelation wrote:
It seems mjoelnir has it closest to right: the French workers will make out the best: lowest number impacted, best odds of finding more work. The German workers are impacted heavily but seems they have reasonable opportunities to find a different position. The statement about Spain and Britain is worrisome.


Thing is, if management would even consider cutting jobs in France, they would literally lose their shirts.

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mxaxai
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Re: Airbus Signals Job Cuts for A380 and A400M Projects

Fri Mar 09, 2018 12:52 am

Revelation wrote:
mxaxai wrote:
Germany is seeing the largest changes whereas France will remain almost untouched. Particularly the workers in southern germany are likely to be relocated or laid off. (not much work for A320 and A350 done there)

Some details from https://www.theguardian.com/business/20 ... istol-a380 :

However, trade unionists present at the works council meeting said Britain’s Filton site, as well as plants in Bremen and Augsburg in Germany, and a factory in Sevilla, Spain, would be the main ones affected.

Yvonnick Dreno, a senior Force Ouvrière unionist, said 1,925 jobs would be affected in Germany, 860 in Spain, 465 in Britain and 470 in France. He said redeployment to other programmes would be difficult in Spain and Britain.

It seems mjoelnir has it closest to right: the French workers will make out the best: lowest number impacted, best odds of finding more work. The German workers are impacted heavily but seems they have reasonable opportunities to find a different position. The statement about Spain and Britain is worrisome.

It heavily depends on the city. If Bremen, yes, there should be ample opportunities. Augsburg, not so much. Unless of course the workers are willing to move someplace else.

https://www.augsburger-allgemeine.de/wi ... 29041.html
Wie bei der Betriebsversammlung am Mittwoch bekannt wurde, will die Geschäftsführung noch in diesem Jahr 300 Leiharbeiter-Stellen streichen. 2019 sollen dann weitere 150 bis 200 Leiharbeiter gehen. Die Zahlen verwundern den Augsburger IG-Metall-Chef Michael Leppek: „Das sind mehr Menschen, als in Augsburg am A380 und A400M arbeiten“ [...] Die Stammbelegschaft hat bis 2020 eine Beschäftigungsgarantie. Doch bei der Betriebsversammlung hieß es auch, dass nach 2020 eventuell Mitarbeiter aus der Stammbelegschaft das Werk verlassen müssen.

Leppek gibt allerdings auch zu bedenken, dass unter den Leiharbeitern Fachkräfte sind, die zum Teil schon seit zehn Jahren für Premium Aerotec arbeiten.

As annouced during a staff meeting last wednesday [in Augsburg], 300 temporary workers are to be laid off this year. Another 150 to 200 [temporary] positions will be cut 2019. Union boss Micheal Leppek is suprised: "There are more positions being cut than there are people working on the A380 and A400M in Augsburg." [...] The core [or permanent] workforce has guaranteed employment until 2020 but cuts are very much possible after that. Leppek notes that some of the "temporary" workers have been with Airbus / Premium Aerotec for over 10 years.


However, ...
Vonseiten der Gewerkschaften hieß es nach dem Treffen der Konzernspitze mit dem Europäischen Betriebsrat, rund 3.700 Stellen sollten gestrichen werden. Es seien aber keine betriebsbedingten Kündigungen geplant.

The unions proclaimed, having met with Airbus leaders, that 3700 positions will be made redundant. However, no terminations for operational reasons are planned.
http://www.zeit.de/wirtschaft/unternehm ... werkschaft
So they will not terminate any contracts but fixed-term contracts will not be extended and staff that retires or leaves on their own will not be replaced. Sound like not much but knowing how many employees are in fixed-term contracts, it could end up being rather easy to get to 1500.

Another IMO interesting tidbit:
Bremen ist nach Hamburg der zweitgrößte deutsche Airbus-Standort und zuständig für die Konstruktion, Fertigung, Integration und Erprobung der Hochauftriebssysteme für die Flügel aller Flugzeugprogramme bei Airbus. Die A380-Produktion umfasst nur 30 bis 40 Mitarbeiter. Im zivilen Bereich arbeiten in Bremen rund 3000 Beschäftigte, hinzu kommen rund 1000 beim A400M [...]

Bremen is Airbus' second largest site in Germany, where design, production and testing of the high-lift devices for all airbus models takes place. Only approximately 30 to 40 employees work in A380 production. Another 1000 employees work on the A400M, and some 3000 workers for other civilian models.
http://www.sueddeutsche.de/news/wirtsch ... -99-398245
 
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Re: Airbus Signals Job Cuts for A380 and A400M Projects

Fri Mar 09, 2018 1:02 am

Thanks for the translations of the detailed info, mxaxai.
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spacecookie
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Re: Airbus Signals Job Cuts for A380 and A400M Projects

Fri Mar 09, 2018 8:58 am

Well, not for the first time they do this, and they do lose some manpower
In the past they trade orders for contracting people from india
Maybee the press is unfriendly in germany ir maybee they are just right.


Pd: https://www.reuters.com/article/us-airb ... SKBN16O29L
 
mjoelnir
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Re: Airbus Signals Job Cuts for A380 and A400M Projects

Fri Mar 09, 2018 11:38 am

Revelation wrote:
william wrote:
Why are there a job losses regarding the A400? While the A400 was envisioned as a C130 replacement and sales have not been was hope for, the R&D has been written off. It has some orders.

They are reducing production rate to keep the production line open longer in the hope of capturing future sales.
At least that's the spin we get for A400M as well as A380.
Another spin would be that they're pushing the cost of eventual shut down and related write offs to future management teams.


It is not only Airbus that wants to stretch deliveries. Now that Airbus has ramped up and can deliver, the countries buying the birds, having formerly accused Airbus of late deliveries, do want to stretch deliveries, as they have realized that they have to pay when this birds are delivered. That has also enabled Airbus to put some pressure on the A400M customers, for the new agreements that have been concluded a short while ago.
 
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Re: Airbus Signals Job Cuts for A380 and A400M Projects

Fri Mar 09, 2018 1:11 pm

spacecookie wrote:
Well, not for the first time they do this, and they do lose some manpower

mjoelnir wrote:
It is not only Airbus that wants to stretch deliveries.

I was going to reply here, but after typing I decided it was more appropriate to follow up in our A400M thread in MilAv:

viewtopic.php?f=10&t=1027711&p=20235309#p20235309

Please join there if you like.
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wingman
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Re: Airbus Signals Job Cuts for A380 and A400M Projects

Fri Mar 09, 2018 4:58 pm

mjoelnir wrote:
Now that Airbus has ramped up and can deliver, the countries buying the birds, having formerly accused Airbus of late deliveries, do want to stretch deliveries, as they have realized that they have to pay when this birds are delivered.


Had the countries forgotten that payment in full was due upon delivery? Quite an oversight if so.
 
wingman
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Re: Airbus Signals Job Cuts for A380 and A400M Projects

Fri Mar 09, 2018 4:59 pm

mjoelnir wrote:
Now that Airbus has ramped up and can deliver, the countries buying the birds, having formerly accused Airbus of late deliveries, do want to stretch deliveries, as they have realized that they have to pay when this birds are delivered.


Had the countries forgotten that payment in full was due upon delivery? Quite an oversight if so.
 
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Re: Airbus Signals Job Cuts for A380 and A400M Projects

Fri Mar 09, 2018 5:39 pm

wingman wrote:
mjoelnir wrote:
Now that Airbus has ramped up and can deliver, the countries buying the birds, having formerly accused Airbus of late deliveries, do want to stretch deliveries, as they have realized that they have to pay when this birds are delivered.


Had the countries forgotten that payment in full was due upon delivery? Quite an oversight if so.

There was quite a squabble over the A400M back in 2010. Product was very late, program was very much over budget. Either party (governmental customers or Airbus) could have forced termination of the program, but neither wanted to be responsible for killing the largest military aerospace program in Europe. Customers agreed to pay more and wait more, Airbus agreed to write down some cost overruns. Germany formulated the plan to sell 13 of its frames, apparently counting on the income from those frames to make the budget whole. Since then things have not gotten better for the program (engine/gearbox issues, tragic flight test accident) or the customer (no takers for the 13 frames). Now we have a new "framework for an agreement" that allows for this much lowered production rate (original target was rate 30, now we see rate 8) and hopefully both parties can afford to deliver/accept the outstanding frames. However the lower production rate means less need for staff. Also "framework for agreement" allows deferral (in effect, cancellation) of some functionality which also means less need for staff.
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beenalongtime
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Re: Airbus Signals Job Cuts for A380 and A400M Projects

Sat Mar 10, 2018 4:53 pm

I understand that the A380 wing factory at Broughton has already re-located a great many people to other areas of the site, mainly to Single Aisle.
No-one will be made redundant. Too much work elsewhere for that.
Regards
b
 
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Re: Airbus Signals Job Cuts for A380 and A400M Projects

Sat Mar 10, 2018 5:37 pm

beenalongtime wrote:
I understand that the A380 wing factory at Broughton has already re-located a great many people to other areas of the site, mainly to Single Aisle.
No-one will be made redundant. Too much work elsewhere for that.
Regards
b

That's very welcome news.
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