eamondzhang
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Re: Replacement of the Swiss Airbus A340-300

Mon Mar 19, 2018 9:47 am

columba wrote:
eamondzhang wrote:
The same could be said for A350 which has the commonality with A320neo series, especially if 77W is not staying for too long as suggested.

Michael


They would have a common pool of long haul pilots

If they do indeed retire the 77Ws early (as others mentioned), then I failed to see how, unless they indeed take up the 777-9X (which I doubt as it would be a really big bird to fill). They can always go A350-1000 to replace 77Ws if they wanted to, and provide commonality across the entire mainline fleet (saves CSeries for now), which would be an even bigger advantage.

Michael
 
columba
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Re: Replacement of the Swiss Airbus A340-300

Mon Mar 19, 2018 9:57 am

They have just taken delivery of their 10th 777 why would they retire it early ? LH and Swiss are both known to get the best of their aircraft and use them for a long time.
It will forever be a McDonnell Douglas MD 80 , Boeing MD 80 sounds so wrong
 
oldannyboy
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Re: Replacement of the Swiss Airbus A340-300

Mon Mar 19, 2018 10:12 am

PM wrote:
Purely from a passenger point of view, a switch from an A340 to a 777 is a retrograde step and I hope they don't do it.


Agree. Fully.
The A343 is so MUCH NICER to fly on than any 777. Period.
 
na
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Re: Replacement of the Swiss Airbus A340-300

Mon Mar 19, 2018 11:18 am

columba wrote:
They have just taken delivery of their 10th 777 why would they retire it early ? LH and Swiss are both known to get the best of their aircraft and use them for a long time.

Not every type - see the A346. When LH is receiving their first 779 in the early 2020s, the 77W suddenly has the role the A346 is in now, the more so as with the A350-1000 on top not just one, but two better planes have entered the 77W ballpark.
 
columba
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Re: Replacement of the Swiss Airbus A340-300

Mon Mar 19, 2018 11:42 am

na wrote:
columba wrote:
They have just taken delivery of their 10th 777 why would they retire it early ? LH and Swiss are both known to get the best of their aircraft and use them for a long time.

Not every type - see the A346. When LH is receiving their first 779 in the early 2020s, the 77W suddenly has the role the A346 is in now, the more so as with the A350-1000 on top not just one, but two better planes have entered the 77W ballpark.

First they have retired some A346s not all. Also the A346 is not as popular as the the 77W and it becomes more expensive to maintain especially the Rolls Roye engines.

LH/LH Group has options to change their A350-900s into -1000s but so far has not done so. Swiss 77Ws fleet is relatively young and paid for (youngest only a few days old). They are good for another 10-15 years. With Austrian, LH Cargo, Aero Logic and Swiss the LH Group owns a sizeable fleet of 777s.

LH Group still operates A340-300 and 747-400s even with the 787, A350 and 777W around that have entered the ballpark years ago. Eurowings is getting A343 while competioners like Norwegian are flying the 787s...why ? Because they are already in the fleet, they are paid for and LH can make them work even if competitioners flying shiny new planes.....
It will forever be a McDonnell Douglas MD 80 , Boeing MD 80 sounds so wrong
 
na
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Re: Replacement of the Swiss Airbus A340-300

Mon Mar 19, 2018 12:48 pm

columba wrote:
na wrote:
columba wrote:
LH/LH Group has options to change their A350-900s into -1000s but so far has not done so. Swiss 77Ws fleet is relatively young and paid for (youngest only a few days old). They are good for another 10-15 years.


Of course they are good for another 10-15 years. But that would still be ten years before the end of the life of a useful longhaul airliner, and thats what I meant: I expect that Swiss will not operate them til the end, that they will be replaced when they are 12-15 years old. Btw, what do you mean by "paid for"? Are they all owned?
 
columba
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Re: Replacement of the Swiss Airbus A340-300

Mon Mar 19, 2018 1:16 pm

na wrote:
columba wrote:
na wrote:

Btw, what do you mean by "paid for"? Are they all owned?


As far as I know yes, they are all owned by Swiss/LH
It will forever be a McDonnell Douglas MD 80 , Boeing MD 80 sounds so wrong
 
DALCE
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Re: Replacement of the Swiss Airbus A340-300

Mon Mar 19, 2018 3:08 pm

I find it very amusing that here on Airliners people are already replacing aircraft after 2 years of service. The last 77W has been delivered last week and is now already discarded as obsolete technology.
Please, we are not talking about a new bottle of whisky, or even a car....
Sure the A340's are getting of age, but with the new interiors they can easily soldier on for another couple of years and a choice will be made within the next few years or so. They too are only 14 years old... ( and paid for....)
The 77W's however will be part of the fleet for many years and will probably be replaced by something which is still on the drawing tables...if already.
flown: F50,F70,CR1,CR2,CR9,E75,143,AR8,AR1,733,735,736,73G,738,753,763,744,77W,788,319,320,321,333,AB6.
 
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NeBaNi
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Re: Replacement of the Swiss Airbus A340-300

Mon Mar 19, 2018 3:24 pm

Etheereal wrote:
NeBaNi wrote:
Etheereal wrote:
What about training costs, cert. rating and so?

Didn't seem to be an issue when switching to Boeing, why would it be an issue when switching back?

Afaik when you switch from one airframe to another as A/B, you have to be re-trained because the systems dont work the same, specially with the FBW technology.

1. It's not like they didn't all fly A320s before, all of them with FBW.
2. Like I said, they already made the switch once, which shows that Swiss thought the merits of the 77W were worthwhile to switch. If another aircraft comes along in the future like that (787, A350), I don't see why they wouldn't switch again.
 
RainerBoeing777
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Re: Replacement of the Swiss Airbus A340-300

Mon Mar 19, 2018 4:08 pm

DALCE wrote:
I find it very amusing that here on Airliners people are already replacing aircraft after 2 years of service. The last 77W has been delivered last week and is now already discarded as obsolete technology.
Please, we are not talking about a new bottle of whisky, or even a car....
Sure the A340's are getting of age, but with the new interiors they can easily soldier on for another couple of years and a choice will be made within the next few years or so. They too are only 14 years old... ( and paid for....)
The 77W's however will be part of the fleet for many years and will probably be replaced by something which is still on the drawing tables...if already.


But the demand in certain routes, it is necessary a bigger plane, the economy in China and India is growing rapidly the demand has increased considerably, Japan the economy is recovering even the most profitable routes of Swiss is Tokyo Narita due to the high demand for premium passengers and approaches the Tokyo2020 Olympics, the destinations that fly the A340 are currently Tokyo Narita, Shanghai PuDong, Beijing and Johannesburg I think the only route you need the A340 is Johannesburg
CX - JL - LH - KE - KL - SQ - QR - QF - TG
 
DALCE
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Re: Replacement of the Swiss Airbus A340-300

Mon Mar 19, 2018 4:27 pm

Whereas I agree on booming demand in the current economy it is more difficult to predict the average potential of bigger planes for a longer period.
Tokyo 2020 is to short notice for any new plane to arrive in the fleet. So shuffling around frames in the network might very well be the best option to meet demand on that specific route. But only if you can make more money there than elsewhere.
Longer term planning does not look to current economy as such. An investment of hundreds of millions CHF / $ will only be made if you can profit more in the longer term than with smaller equipment.
And for India....well to be honest filling seats is one, but at a decent yield is a whole different story. India is not exactly well known for high spenditure. And regardless of the type LX will have 8 F-seats in their layout, so the high end is covered anyways.
flown: F50,F70,CR1,CR2,CR9,E75,143,AR8,AR1,733,735,736,73G,738,753,763,744,77W,788,319,320,321,333,AB6.
 
mjoelnir
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Re: Replacement of the Swiss Airbus A340-300

Mon Mar 19, 2018 4:56 pm

columba wrote:
na wrote:
columba wrote:
They have just taken delivery of their 10th 777 why would they retire it early ? LH and Swiss are both known to get the best of their aircraft and use them for a long time.

Not every type - see the A346. When LH is receiving their first 779 in the early 2020s, the 77W suddenly has the role the A346 is in now, the more so as with the A350-1000 on top not just one, but two better planes have entered the 77W ballpark.

First they have retired some A346s not all. Also the A346 is not as popular as the the 77W and it becomes more expensive to maintain especially the Rolls Roye engines.

LH/LH Group has options to change their A350-900s into -1000s but so far has not done so. Swiss 77Ws fleet is relatively young and paid for (youngest only a few days old). They are good for another 10-15 years. With Austrian, LH Cargo, Aero Logic and Swiss the LH Group owns a sizeable fleet of 777s.

LH Group still operates A340-300 and 747-400s even with the 787, A350 and 777W around that have entered the ballpark years ago. Eurowings is getting A343 while competioners like Norwegian are flying the 787s...why ? Because they are already in the fleet, they are paid for and LH can make them work even if competitioners flying shiny new planes.....


Swiss has A340-300 with CFM engines. If I talk about the 777-300ER being an interim solution, I mean that, that fleet will most likely not expand.They were bought, because at the time of order, they were sold for a low price and fast available. Today there are several frames, that have a 15% or more advantage in fuel burn per seat over the 777-300ER. The 8% advantage that the 777-300ER has over the A340-600 killed that bird. When Swiss will have received the last ordered frame # 10, the whole 777 passenger fleet at the Lufthansa group amounts to 16 frames.
The Austrian 777-200ER are older, the oldest being over 20 years, than the current Swiss A340-300, have similar fuel burn, range and size. I would assume those being up for replacement next.
I would not count the cargo 777 with the passenger fleets, at LH the cargo fleets tend to be frames, that often have not been used for passenger transport at LH. Buying dedicated freighters is a different decision from buying passenger aircraft. Anyway does the Lufthansa group not to be afraid to have small purpose dedicated fleets.
 
columba
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Re: Replacement of the Swiss Airbus A340-300

Mon Mar 19, 2018 8:19 pm

In two years LH will get the first 777X so the 777 fleet with LH Group will grow even if they retire the Austrian fleet in a few years.
It will forever be a McDonnell Douglas MD 80 , Boeing MD 80 sounds so wrong
 
RainerBoeing777
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Re: Replacement of the Swiss Airbus A340-300

Wed May 16, 2018 8:12 pm

https://twitter.com/FlySWISS/status/993748663494209537
https://www.bizjournals.com/seattle/news/2018/05/07/boeing-777-lufthansa-cargo-swiss-air-freighters.html
Swiss ordered two more Boeing 777-300ER, are to be delivered in 2020 potentially to operate the route Zurich - Tokyo Narita, I think this is the possibility that the entire fleet of Airbus A340-300 is replaced by the family Boeing 777, destinations such as Johannesburg, Tokyo Narita, Shanghai and Beijing where even the A343s need larger airplanes, even routes like Delhi, Mumbai, Boston and New York will need bigger airplanes, maybe Lufthansa Group will transfer some Boeing 777-9X to Swiss for their routes in high demand such as Bangkok, Hong Kong, San Francisco and Singapore
CX - JL - LH - KE - KL - SQ - QR - QF - TG
 
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seabosdca
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Re: Replacement of the Swiss Airbus A340-300

Thu May 17, 2018 7:13 am

A Swiss 777-9 would be a magnificent beast, but I expect it's a bit too much. I wouldn't be surprised to see an A330neo order for the LH Group that would provide a few frames to Swiss at some point in the next few years. There might also be a further top-up of a couple more 777-300ER frames.
 
columba
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Re: Replacement of the Swiss Airbus A340-300

Thu May 17, 2018 7:46 am

seabosdca wrote:
A Swiss 777-9 would be a magnificent beast, but I expect it's a bit too much. I wouldn't be surprised to see an A330neo order for the LH Group that would provide a few frames to Swiss at some point in the next few years. There might also be a further top-up of a couple more 777-300ER frames.

787 is also a likely candidate especially with the 777 in both Swiss and Lufthansa´s fleet.
It will forever be a McDonnell Douglas MD 80 , Boeing MD 80 sounds so wrong
 
GRJGeorge
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Re: Replacement of the Swiss Airbus A340-300

Thu May 17, 2018 8:31 am

It seems they've been using A333s on ZRH-JNB a lot more the last few weeks...is it due to a problem with some A343?
 
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zkojq
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Re: Replacement of the Swiss Airbus A340-300

Thu May 17, 2018 8:34 am

columba wrote:
eamondzhang wrote:
The same could be said for A350 which has the commonality with A320neo series, especially if 77W is not staying for too long as suggested.

Michael


They would have a common pool of long haul pilots

Swiss has a pilot group that flies A319/320/321/330, no? Thus replacing A330s with 787-9s (as opposed to A330-900neos) would not allow this to continue.

oldannyboy wrote:
PM wrote:
Purely from a passenger point of view, a switch from an A340 to a 777 is a retrograde step and I hope they don't do it.


Agree. Fully.
The A343 is so MUCH NICER to fly on than any 777. Period.

:checkmark:

columba wrote:
seabosdca wrote:
A Swiss 777-9 would be a magnificent beast, but I expect it's a bit too much. I wouldn't be surprised to see an A330neo order for the LH Group that would provide a few frames to Swiss at some point in the next few years. There might also be a further top-up of a couple more 777-300ER frames.

787 is also a likely candidate especially with the 777 in both Swiss and Lufthansa´s fleet.


The Lufthansa Group has had nearly 15 years to order the 787, yet has avoided doing so for all that time. I don't see a 787 order as likelihood.
Most recent planes I've been in: A318 F-GUGQ, A319 F-GRHR, A320ceo D-AIZH, A320neo D-AINE, A330-300 VH-QPD, A350-900 B-LRA, A380-800 D-AIMH, B737-600 LN-RPA, B737-700 OY-JTY, B737-800 LN-NGA, B767-300 ZK-NCI, B777-300 ZK-OKN, B787-9 VH-ZNA, CS100 HB-JBG
 
columba
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Re: Replacement of the Swiss Airbus A340-300

Thu May 17, 2018 9:14 am

It would be easier for route planning to have a pool of pilots flying short haul routes and one for long haul pilots.Therefore a A32x and 777/787 pilots pool is more efficient than a A32x,A330 and 777 pool. Especially for a smaller airline like Swiss.
It will forever be a McDonnell Douglas MD 80 , Boeing MD 80 sounds so wrong
 
FatCat
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Re: Replacement of the Swiss Airbus A340-300

Thu May 17, 2018 9:53 am

zkojq wrote:
The Lufthansa Group has had nearly 15 years to order the 787, yet has avoided doing so for all that time. I don't see a 787 order as likelihood.


Agree
Why they should buy the 787?
LH has a nice schedule with the A359, they may save money on training, maintenance, and pilots.
A359 is the perfect candidate to replace the A343, for Swiss, Edelweiss and Lufthansa, imho
May my post not hurt your feelings
 
rbrunner
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Re: Replacement of the Swiss Airbus A340-300

Thu May 17, 2018 10:02 am

oldannyboy wrote:
PM wrote:
Purely from a passenger point of view, a switch from an A340 to a 777 is a retrograde step and I hope they don't do it.


Agree. Fully.
The A343 is so MUCH NICER to fly on than any 777. Period.


Absolutely. Flew LHR-BOS recently in a BA777. Awful. Very noisy cabin. Back on VS A346 - What a difference! Super silent cabin!!!
 
oldannyboy
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Re: Replacement of the Swiss Airbus A340-300

Thu May 17, 2018 10:54 am

rbrunner wrote:
oldannyboy wrote:
PM wrote:
Purely from a passenger point of view, a switch from an A340 to a 777 is a retrograde step and I hope they don't do it.


Agree. Fully.
The A343 is so MUCH NICER to fly on than any 777. Period.


Absolutely. Flew LHR-BOS recently in a BA777. Awful. Very noisy cabin. Back on VS A346 - What a difference! Super silent cabin!!!


Personally I would have loved to see LX go with LH's 'hand-me-down' 346s to complement the rest of the Airbus fleet, rather than going for the 773ER.... but I guess those bean-counters paying the fuel bills thought otherwise....
 
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zkojq
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Re: Replacement of the Swiss Airbus A340-300

Thu May 17, 2018 2:12 pm

columba wrote:
It would be easier for route planning to have a pool of pilots flying short haul routes and one for long haul pilots.Therefore a A32x and 777/787 pilots pool is more efficient than a A32x,A330 and 777 pool. Especially for a smaller airline like Swiss.


So you're saying it would be more efficient for the A319/320/321/330 pilot pool not to be able to fly the A330? You do realise that means less flexibility with regards to crewing? :scratchchin:

na wrote:
columba wrote:
na wrote:


Of course they are good for another 10-15 years. But that would still be ten years before the end of the life of a useful longhaul airliner, and thats what I meant: I expect that Swiss will not operate them til the end, that they will be replaced when they are 12-15 years old. Btw, what do you mean by "paid for"? Are they all owned?

Keep in mind that Lufthansa does have the ability to shuffle aircraft around the LH Group if needed. So if it was planned for Swiss to operate the 77Ws (or A330-300s for sake of argument) for a relatively short time-span (eg 10 years), the aircraft could be moved to Austrian (or Eurowings/Brussles) without the Lufthansa Group losing out in terms of capital costs.
Last edited by zkojq on Thu May 17, 2018 2:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Most recent planes I've been in: A318 F-GUGQ, A319 F-GRHR, A320ceo D-AIZH, A320neo D-AINE, A330-300 VH-QPD, A350-900 B-LRA, A380-800 D-AIMH, B737-600 LN-RPA, B737-700 OY-JTY, B737-800 LN-NGA, B767-300 ZK-NCI, B777-300 ZK-OKN, B787-9 VH-ZNA, CS100 HB-JBG
 
CX747
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Re: Replacement of the Swiss Airbus A340-300

Thu May 17, 2018 2:15 pm

It looks as if LH and LX are becoming very fond of the 777. More 777F orders and additional 77Ws. I really like LX’s 77Ws. They are extremely sharp and clean looking.
"History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or timid." D. Eisenhower
 
urbanflyer
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Re: Replacement of the Swiss Airbus A340-300

Thu May 17, 2018 3:11 pm

zkojq wrote:
columba wrote:
It would be easier for route planning to have a pool of pilots flying short haul routes and one for long haul pilots.Therefore a A32x and 777/787 pilots pool is more efficient than a A32x,A330 and 777 pool. Especially for a smaller airline like Swiss.


So you're saying it would be more efficient for the A319/320/321/330 pilot pool not to be able to fly the A330? You do realise that means less flexibility with regards to crewing? :scratchchin:



Swiss has 2 pilot pools for the Airbus fleet. A32X and A330/A340. There is no cross qualification anymore.
So it would make sense to add the B787 to have a B777/B787 pool but it would also make sense to add the A350 to have A330/A350.
 
Momo1435
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Re: Replacement of the Swiss Airbus A340-300

Thu May 17, 2018 3:49 pm

If they are only looking at replacing the A340 adding the new type would not make sense. Then they could just add some more 777s on top of the 2 just ordered or some A333ceo's. They could even look at adding some young used planes.

The real question will be what they are going to do when the A330's are (also) up for replacement. Then both the A359 and the 789 will be strong contenders. With their current mixed fleet I don't see a clear front runner.
 
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seabosdca
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Re: Replacement of the Swiss Airbus A340-300

Thu May 17, 2018 8:16 pm

zkojq wrote:
The Lufthansa Group has had nearly 15 years to order the 787, yet has avoided doing so for all that time. I don't see a 787 order as likelihood.


The group has had many A330s arriving during that period, so there hasn't been a need to make a decision about the next step in that size class. Now the A330 orders are all delivered, and within the next few years the group will need to decide whether to evolve to the A330neo, jump to the 787, or order both. I expect the A330neo has the inside track, but Boeing has been remarkably aggressive on price with the 787 of late, so there is a contest to be had.

Either way I expect Swiss will receive some part of the order.
 
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Polot
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Re: Replacement of the Swiss Airbus A340-300

Thu May 17, 2018 8:31 pm

It’s been about 8? years since the LH group has ordered any new A330s as far as I can tell, so the fact that they haven’t ordered the 787 despite the chance to for ~15 years does not mean as much as you would think.

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