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cvgComair
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Re: OAG Changes 4/15/2018: WS Drops YYC-DFW/ORD, BOS-YUL; UA Adds IAD-PBG; AS Trims More Transcons

Sun Apr 15, 2018 8:32 pm

Aliqiout wrote:
cvgComair wrote:
klm617 wrote:

Yes but that fact remains Delta had them listed as daily and reduced them so they are showing less demand than Delta anticipated.

It was just a filler schedule, Delta didn't anticipate anything. These changes are 7-8 months out, current bookings are not going to indicate what the demand is eventually going to be. CVG-CDG hasn't been daily during Nov/Dec in years, but every year the filler schedule shows daily until the date gets closer. I am 100% confident that Delta did not anticipate such demand.

If they had no intention of flying these frequencies why were they selling them for months? I am not arguing with you. It just seems like a shady way of doing business.

It is just how they put together schedules, normally these changes take place far enough ahead of time that the OAG report doesn't cover them. The majority of pax don't book this far out, so the impact on passengers is very minimal. Oddly, most of these changes were made the Saturday before the OAG report last week, so I am not sure why they are just now showing up.
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EA CO AS
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Re: OAG Changes 4/15/2018: WS Drops YYC-DFW/ORD, BOS-YUL; UA Adds IAD-PBG; AS Trims More Transcons

Sun Apr 15, 2018 8:51 pm

chrisair wrote:
EA CO AS wrote:
Especially considering the one SFOJFK and one LAXJFK pulled are now funding a 3rd SEAJFK along with a SJCJFK with optimal timing, giving AS great Bay Area-JFK options, not just limited to SFO.


Curious how a third SEA-JFK flight gives "AS great Bay Area-JFK options..."

Unless they're going to funnel people through SEA?


Being pedantic, aren't we? I think it's pretty clear that the SJCJFK addition is what was specifically being referenced.
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Comments made here are my own and are not intended to represent the official position of Alaska Air Group
 
clrd4t8koff
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Re: OAG Changes 4/15/2018: WS Drops YYC-DFW/ORD, BOS-YUL; UA Adds IAD-PBG; AS Trims More Transcons

Sun Apr 15, 2018 9:07 pm

HVNandrew wrote:
enilria wrote:
BOS is kinda surprising
*WS BOS-YUL JUL 2>0 AUG 2>0 SEP 2>0 OCT 2.0>0 NOV 1.9>0 DEC 1.9>0
*WS DFW-YYC JUL 1.0>0 AUG 1.0>0 SEP 1.0>0 OCT 0.9>0
*WS ORD-YYC JUL 0.8>0 AUG 0.9>0 SEP 0.9>0 OCT 0.7>0

Very surprising. Back to AC being the only carrier on the route with CRJs/CR9s. Not sure why this is such a hard route to make work. Similar in distance as YUL-NYC, but that drive to BOS is still partially off-highway in southern Quebec (south of St. Jean sur Richelieu to the border...and it can be a slow ride). Obviously the demand is smaller than YUL-NYC...but 30x daily to NYC this summer on a mix of RJs and mainline versus 6x to BOS is a disproportionate difference given the markets.

DL flew this for years, I believe until their last big pulldown in BOS back around 2008. I wonder if they will bring it back now that they are in a rebuilding phase there.


Just a guess here - I think this might have less to do with demand and more to do with the fact DL needs to be able to use A1 for a few of their own flights. If I'm not mistaken this summer DL will be at its peak of the number of flights e.g BOS. With WS running BOS-YUL that put them at 7 flights per day and basically the sole user of the gate. People can drive to YUL much easier than they can to YTZ and YHZ, so YUL was cut.

Would be nice if DL added it.
 
ucdtim17
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Re: OAG Changes 4/15/2018: WS Drops YYC-DFW/ORD, BOS-YUL; UA Adds IAD-PBG; AS Trims More Transcons

Sun Apr 15, 2018 9:10 pm

EA CO AS wrote:
AirFiero wrote:
Thank God. I hope it is a trend that continues. It's about time for us south bay travelers.


AS looks at the Bay Area as a whole entity, not just at SFO. While SFO will continue to be the crown jewel for them in CA, building their presence and becoming an airline of choice to travelers throughout CA means serving multiple airports well, not just one.


Well not really as a whole - more like 2/3. They ignore the East Bay, which is where the largest share of the Bay Area population actually lives and where the 4th busiest airport in the state is located.
 
Aliqiout
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Re: OAG Changes 4/15/2018: WS Drops YYC-DFW/ORD, BOS-YUL; UA Adds IAD-PBG; AS Trims More Transcons

Sun Apr 15, 2018 10:04 pm

jbs2886 wrote:
Aliqiout wrote:
cvgComair wrote:
It was just a filler schedule, Delta didn't anticipate anything. These changes are 7-8 months out, current bookings are not going to indicate what the demand is eventually going to be. CVG-CDG hasn't been daily during Nov/Dec in years, but every year the filler schedule shows daily until the date gets closer. I am 100% confident that Delta did not anticipate such demand.

If they had no intention of flying these frequencies why were they selling them for months? I am not arguing with you. It just seems like a shady way of doing business.


Shady? Lol. Every airline has "filler" schedules that get adjusted. Booking a flight 8-9 months out, you are almost guaranteed a change.

People should read the caveats because this is how this thread gets misinterpreted. These are adjustments from schedules, including dummy schedules. They do not show what an airline anticipated or a year over year change.

There is no problem with adjustments as they are required. It would be impossible to accurently forecast demand almost a year out, but that is different than deliberately selling a "dummy schedule" that they know exceeds what the will fly, and repeating the same over sale year after year.
 
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Re: OAG Changes 4/15/2018: WS Drops YYC-DFW/ORD, BOS-YUL; UA Adds IAD-PBG; AS Trims More Transcons

Sun Apr 15, 2018 10:07 pm

Aliqiout wrote:
that is different than deliberately selling a "dummy schedule" that they know exceeds what the will fly, and repeating the same over sale year after year.

Well that is exactly what DL (and many other airlines) do. :?
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klm617
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Re: OAG Changes 4/15/2018: WS Drops YYC-DFW/ORD, BOS-YUL; UA Adds IAD-PBG; AS Trims More Transcons

Sun Apr 15, 2018 10:26 pm

jbs2886 wrote:
Aliqiout wrote:
cvgComair wrote:
It was just a filler schedule, Delta didn't anticipate anything. These changes are 7-8 months out, current bookings are not going to indicate what the demand is eventually going to be. CVG-CDG hasn't been daily during Nov/Dec in years, but every year the filler schedule shows daily until the date gets closer. I am 100% confident that Delta did not anticipate such demand.

If they had no intention of flying these frequencies why were they selling them for months? I am not arguing with you. It just seems like a shady way of doing business.


Shady? Lol. Every airline has "filler" schedules that get adjusted. Booking a flight 8-9 months out, you are almost guaranteed a change.

People should read the caveats because this is how this thread gets misinterpreted. These are adjustments from schedules, including dummy schedules. They do not show what an airline anticipated or a year over year change.



Shady in the fact that if I purchase a nonstop flight I expect to be on a nonstop not routed over some other airport because my flight was deleted and no not every airlines does this. It's deception pure and simple.
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
Aliqiout
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Re: OAG Changes 4/15/2018: WS Drops YYC-DFW/ORD, BOS-YUL; UA Adds IAD-PBG; AS Trims More Transcons

Sun Apr 15, 2018 10:28 pm

cvgComair wrote:
Aliqiout wrote:
that is different than deliberately selling a "dummy schedule" that they know exceeds what the will fly, and repeating the same over sale year after year.

Well that is exactly what DL (and many other airlines) do. :?

And that is exactly the problem.
 
klm617
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Re: OAG Changes 4/15/2018: WS Drops YYC-DFW/ORD, BOS-YUL; UA Adds IAD-PBG; AS Trims More Transcons

Sun Apr 15, 2018 10:30 pm

Midwestindy wrote:
Aliqiout wrote:
cvgComair wrote:
It was just a filler schedule, Delta didn't anticipate anything. These changes are 7-8 months out, current bookings are not going to indicate what the demand is eventually going to be. CVG-CDG hasn't been daily during Nov/Dec in years, but every year the filler schedule shows daily until the date gets closer. I am 100% confident that Delta did not anticipate such demand.

If they had no intention of flying these frequencies why were they selling them for months? I am not arguing with you. It just seems like a shady way of doing business.


This is the same thing with every airline schedule.... Airlines publish schedules and modify them later (i.e. the whole point of this thread)

And to be fair how many people do you know are booking flights for December, January, and February the April before?



A lot of people that are traveling for Thanksgiving and Christmas. I always book way early to get the seats and flights I want. O booked in September last year to fly in May of this year.
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
chrisair
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Re: OAG Changes 4/15/2018: WS Drops YYC-DFW/ORD, BOS-YUL; UA Adds IAD-PBG; AS Trims More Transcons

Sun Apr 15, 2018 10:41 pm

EA CO AS wrote:
Being pedantic, aren't we?


Someone's gotta do it. :biggrin:

Give me my SFO-PHX flight back and I'll buy you lunch.
Last edited by chrisair on Sun Apr 15, 2018 10:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
Aliqiout
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Re: OAG Changes 4/15/2018: WS Drops YYC-DFW/ORD, BOS-YUL; UA Adds IAD-PBG; AS Trims More Transcons

Sun Apr 15, 2018 10:49 pm

I occasionally book that far out too, for international travel to small expensive destinations between city pairs that require interlining. For these types of trips the cost is very stable, and once I establish the need for the trip I buy it, so I don't habe to think about it anymore. The expected schedule changes are not an issue, but a seasonal cut that was known to be coming by the airline is a way for them to secure my money without intending to supply the service I purchased.
 
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Re: OAG Changes 4/15/2018: WS Drops YYC-DFW/ORD, BOS-YUL; UA Adds IAD-PBG; AS Trims More Transcons

Sun Apr 15, 2018 11:04 pm

klm617 wrote:
MARSHAL1 wrote:
So does this mean that Westjet is gone from ORD & DFW? WS chose to end the AA code share and do a cross border deal with DL so I'm guessing these routes will be replaced with ATL, DTW, MSP & SLC.

*WS DFW-YYC JUL 1.0>0 AUG 1.0>0 SEP 1.0>0 OCT 0.9>0
*WS ORD-YYC JUL 0.8>0 AUG 0.9>0 SEP 0.9>0 OCT 0.7>0



Hopefully at the very least DTW and ATL. MSP and SLC is already connected to YYC


It's actually kinda surprising that even without an AA codeshare that WS wouldn't maintain these summer seasonally.

tphuang wrote:
HVNandrew wrote:
enilria wrote:
BOS is kinda surprising
*WS BOS-YUL JUL 2>0 AUG 2>0 SEP 2>0 OCT 2.0>0 NOV 1.9>0 DEC 1.9>0
*WS DFW-YYC JUL 1.0>0 AUG 1.0>0 SEP 1.0>0 OCT 0.9>0
*WS ORD-YYC JUL 0.8>0 AUG 0.9>0 SEP 0.9>0 OCT 0.7>0

Very surprising. Back to AC being the only carrier on the route with CRJs/CR9s. Not sure why this is such a hard route to make work. Similar in distance as YUL-NYC, but that drive to BOS is still partially off-highway in southern Quebec (south of St. Jean sur Richelieu to the border...and it can be a slow ride). Obviously the demand is smaller than YUL-NYC...but 30x daily to NYC this summer on a mix of RJs and mainline versus 6x to BOS is a disproportionate difference given the markets.

DL flew this for years, I believe until their last big pulldown in BOS back around 2008. I wonder if they will bring it back now that they are in a rebuilding phase there.


Here are the load factor on BOS-YUL from July to October according to T100.
WS 5148 60.35
QK 70065 79.61

Let's not pretend this is anything other than AC beating WS on a route that it should dominate. Canadian PoS typically dominates transborder routes.


You'd think WS would give it a few more months to mature. You can bet your top dollar that if Flair were on the route instead of AC, WS would be not just 2x but 4x, lol! Well unless DL jump back on YUL-BOS cue the massive fare increases by AC in 3,2,1...

EvanWSFO wrote:
knope2001 wrote:
adamblang wrote:
It's A.net wisdom that IAD is in imminent threat of UA de-hubbing. Separately, every few weeks there's an article with Scott Kirby extolling the virtues of timing your hub schedule for good connectivity and the virtues of being in small markets, especially being the only player in a small market.

If find it interesting and encouraging that nearly every week's OAG thread has some new IAD add to a market I'd never heard of.

For all the doom and gloom about IAD, it seems like UA is gradually building up the small market connectivity that would make the hub a lucrative part of the network.


For what it's worth PBG (Plattsburgh) is a subsidized EAS market which United bid for and won.


Why would PBG need EAS when they have scheduled ULCC service. Is this so they can have connection options?


That's exactly the reason why. All of PBG's other traffic is non-hub Florida flying. There are other EAS airports like this, such as Ogdensburg.
 
klm617
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Re: OAG Changes 4/15/2018: WS Drops YYC-DFW/ORD, BOS-YUL; UA Adds IAD-PBG; AS Trims More Transcons

Sun Apr 15, 2018 11:38 pm

Aliqiout wrote:
I occasionally book that far out too, for international travel to small expensive destinations between city pairs that require interlining. For these types of trips the cost is very stable, and once I establish the need for the trip I buy it, so I don't habe to think about it anymore. The expected schedule changes are not an issue, but a seasonal cut that was known to be coming by the airline is a way for them to secure my money without intending to supply the service I purchased.


Exactly it's deception how can anyone say that selling something that doesn't exist is acceptable. Why not sell the flight 5 times a week and the add capacity if you need to later. If I purchased a nonstop that what I expect.
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
seatback
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Re: OAG Changes 4/15/2018: WS Drops YYC-DFW/ORD, BOS-YUL; UA Adds IAD-PBG; AS Trims More Transcons

Sun Apr 15, 2018 11:48 pm

jbs2886 wrote:
seatback wrote:
DL JFK-ATL JUL 8>7
DL JFK-BCN NOV 1.0>0.9 DEC 1.0>0.9
DL JFK-DFW OCT 1.8>3
DL JFK-EDI NOV 1.0>0.7 DEC 1.0>0.7
DL JFK-FCO NOV 1.0>0.7 DEC 1.0>0.7
DL JFK-MAD NOV 1.0>0.7 DEC 1.0>0.7
DL JFK-PBI OCT 1.0>0
DL JFK-PUJ NOV 1.1>1.4 DEC 1.5>1.8
DL LGA-GSP JUL 1.3>3 AUG 1.7>3 SEP 1.7>3 OCT 1.7>3 NOV 1.7>3 DEC 1.7>3
DL LGA-MHT JUL 1.9>1.2 AUG 1.9>1.0 SEP 1.8>1.0 OCT 1.9>1.0 NOV 1.8>1.0 DEC 1.1>0.6

At the end of the day, how profitable is DL in NYC?


The Europe routes are regular seasonal reductions, I don’t see how that translate into your dramatic question.


Not sure I understand your thought that there's "drama" in the question, but simply put, I'm just wondering if their strategy in NY is paying off, or if they're getting the appropriate level of ROI.
 
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Re: OAG Changes 4/15/2018: WS Drops YYC-DFW/ORD, BOS-YUL; UA Adds IAD-PBG; AS Trims More Transcons

Sun Apr 15, 2018 11:56 pm

klm617 wrote:
Midwestindy wrote:
Aliqiout wrote:
If they had no intention of flying these frequencies why were they selling them for months? I am not arguing with you. It just seems like a shady way of doing business.


This is the same thing with every airline schedule.... Airlines publish schedules and modify them later (i.e. the whole point of this thread)

And to be fair how many people do you know are booking flights for December, January, and February the April before?


A lot of people that are traveling for Thanksgiving and Christmas. I always book way early to get the seats and flights I want. O booked in September last year to fly in May of this year.


That is some hyperbole, we aren't talking about a large portion of travelers, we are talking about 1-2% of pax who are booking 8-10 months in advance
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Re: OAG Changes 4/15/2018: WS Drops YYC-DFW/ORD, BOS-YUL; UA Adds IAD-PBG; AS Trims More Transcons

Mon Apr 16, 2018 12:13 am

seatback wrote:
jbs2886 wrote:
seatback wrote:
DL JFK-ATL JUL 8>7
DL JFK-BCN NOV 1.0>0.9 DEC 1.0>0.9
DL JFK-DFW OCT 1.8>3
DL JFK-EDI NOV 1.0>0.7 DEC 1.0>0.7
DL JFK-FCO NOV 1.0>0.7 DEC 1.0>0.7
DL JFK-MAD NOV 1.0>0.7 DEC 1.0>0.7
DL JFK-PBI OCT 1.0>0
DL JFK-PUJ NOV 1.1>1.4 DEC 1.5>1.8
DL LGA-GSP JUL 1.3>3 AUG 1.7>3 SEP 1.7>3 OCT 1.7>3 NOV 1.7>3 DEC 1.7>3
DL LGA-MHT JUL 1.9>1.2 AUG 1.9>1.0 SEP 1.8>1.0 OCT 1.9>1.0 NOV 1.8>1.0 DEC 1.1>0.6

At the end of the day, how profitable is DL in NYC?


The Europe routes are regular seasonal reductions, I don’t see how that translate into your dramatic question.


Not sure I understand your thought that there's "drama" in the question, but simply put, I'm just wondering if their strategy in NY is paying off, or if they're getting the appropriate level of ROI.


My apologies. There are a number of posters that make such comments on a consistent basis in an effort to just bash DL as opposed to an actual inquiry. Regardless, normal seasonal reductions don't mean DL is unprofitable. To the contrary, DL is probably maximizing its profit.
 
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Re: OAG Changes 4/15/2018: WS Drops YYC-DFW/ORD, BOS-YUL; UA Adds IAD-PBG; AS Trims More Transcons

Mon Apr 16, 2018 12:19 am

With this move by WS I wonder if AA will upgauge back to mainline on DFW-YYC.
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Re: OAG Changes 4/15/2018: WS Drops YYC-DFW/ORD, BOS-YUL; UA Adds IAD-PBG; AS Trims More Transcons

Mon Apr 16, 2018 12:51 am

klm617 wrote:
Aliqiout wrote:
I occasionally book that far out too, for international travel to small expensive destinations between city pairs that require interlining. For these types of trips the cost is very stable, and once I establish the need for the trip I buy it, so I don't habe to think about it anymore. The expected schedule changes are not an issue, but a seasonal cut that was known to be coming by the airline is a way for them to secure my money without intending to supply the service I purchased.


Exactly it's deception how can anyone say that selling something that doesn't exist is acceptable. Why not sell the flight 5 times a week and the add capacity if you need to later. If I purchased a nonstop that what I expect.


The same thing happened in an OAG thread last year in March but it wasn't as big of an issue as it is now, for whatever reason. OAG Changes 03/16/2017.
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enilria
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Re: OAG Changes 4/15/2018: WS Drops YYC-DFW/ORD, BOS-YUL; UA Adds IAD-PBG; AS Trims More Transcons

Mon Apr 16, 2018 2:05 am

cvgComair wrote:
It showed up last week as well, must be some sort of filing error by Delta or GoJet.

All the regionals publish a single flight to hold their IATA 2 letter code.
MIflyer12 wrote:
enilria wrote:

BOS is kinda surprising
*WS BOS-YUL JUL 2>0 AUG 2>0 SEP 2>0 OCT 2.0>0 NOV 1.9>0 DEC 1.9>0
*WS DFW-YYC JUL 1.0>0 AUG 1.0>0 SEP 1.0>0 OCT 0.9>0
*WS ORD-YYC JUL 0.8>0 AUG 0.9>0 SEP 0.9>0 OCT 0.7>0


Shall we look for DL to file BOS-YUL next week?

Probably!
tphuang wrote:
Here are the load factor on BOS-YUL from July to October according to T100.
WS 5148 60.35
QK 70065 79.61

Let's not pretend this is anything other than AC beating WS on a route that it should dominate. Canadian PoS typically dominates transborder routes.

AC doesn't have that much connectivity there, more than WS...
oosnowrat wrote:
OO bid for the contact, not UA. PenAir had it previously.

I'm betting OO is the biggest EAS operator now...or will be.
bfitzflyer wrote:
Looks like AS is trashing everything that Virgin had built at SFO. Was predictable. They can't compete with the big boys, so retrench to Seattle and secondary airports like SJC, PDX and SAN. I understand they are in this to make money, but just a shame that they have ruined what was a great product/carrier at SFO.

I thought they'd trash LAX and DAL. They had a much more sustainable #2 position in SFO.I hope they are doing this because of profitability and not because "LAX is worse, but has bigger value". If that's the case they are insane.
chrisnh wrote:
AA is going to Worcester not because it’s a great station, but to stroke Massport for some favorable treatment at Logan (which is the only reason B6 is there).

Yeah. How is that any different than the Port of NY/UA controversy?
Aliqiout wrote:
If they had no intention of flying these frequencies why were they selling them for months? I am not arguing with you. It just seems like a shady way of doing business.

So, I think DL has a long history of being "over optimistic" with capacity and then they reaccom everybody down onto fewer flights. NW pioneered the strategy. I personally consider it likely bait and switch, but they can argue it is just over-optimism.
 
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Re: OAG Changes 4/15/2018: WS Drops YYC-DFW/ORD, BOS-YUL; UA Adds IAD-PBG; AS Trims More Transcons

Mon Apr 16, 2018 2:33 am

chrisair wrote:
Give me my SFO-PHX flight back


Working on it! :cool2:
"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan

Comments made here are my own and are not intended to represent the official position of Alaska Air Group
 
n7371f
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Re: OAG Changes 4/15/2018: WS Drops YYC-DFW/ORD, BOS-YUL; UA Adds IAD-PBG; AS Trims More Transcons

Mon Apr 16, 2018 3:58 am

If AS can get higher yields pulling planes off LAX and SFO, then it's a smart move.

EA CO AS wrote:
commavia wrote:
enilria wrote:
Wow, close in transcon pullback...
*AS JFK-LAX JUL 6>5 AUG 6>5 SEP 6>5 OCT 6>5 NOV 6>5 DEC 6>5
*AS JFK-SFO AUG 5>4 SEP 5>4 OCT 5>4 NOV 5>4 DEC 5>4


As already discussed a week ago ...

The frequency in these markets, in absolute terms, aren't that bad, but the schedules are fairly rough for business travel competitiveness: last westbound JFK-SFO is before 1700, first eastbound SFO-JFK is after 0900, no westbound JFK-LAX between 1300 and 2000, and first eastbound LAX-JFK isn't until almost 1100.

That said, given the level of competition on JFK-LAX/SFO from four major rivals with significantly better premium offerings, it isn't at all surprising why Alaska would - just as many of us expected and predicted at the time of the merger - give up on seriously competing for premium traffic on these routes. With the economies of scale from standardizing cabins and configurations over a relatively smaller fleet, that likely is the profit-maximizing approach, particularly since those slots can be used on other routes where competition is less intense and/or Alaska is relatively stronger.


Especially considering the one SFOJFK and one LAXJFK pulled are now funding a 3rd SEAJFK along with a SJCJFK with optimal timing, giving AS great Bay Area-JFK options, not just limited to SFO.
 
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Re: OAG Changes 4/15/2018: WS Drops YYC-DFW/ORD, BOS-YUL; UA Adds IAD-PBG; AS Trims More Transcons

Mon Apr 16, 2018 5:16 am

EA CO AS wrote:
AirFiero wrote:
Thank God. I hope it is a trend that continues. It's about time for us south bay travelers.


AS looks at the Bay Area as a whole entity, not just at SFO. While SFO will continue to be the crown jewel for them in CA, building their presence and becoming an airline of choice to travelers throughout CA means serving multiple airports well, not just one.


Wouldn’t that be my point?
 
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Re: OAG Changes 4/15/2018: WS Drops YYC-DFW/ORD, BOS-YUL; UA Adds IAD-PBG; AS Trims More Transcons

Mon Apr 16, 2018 5:54 am

AirFiero wrote:
EA CO AS wrote:
AirFiero wrote:
Thank God. I hope it is a trend that continues. It's about time for us south bay travelers.


AS looks at the Bay Area as a whole entity, not just at SFO. While SFO will continue to be the crown jewel for them in CA, building their presence and becoming an airline of choice to travelers throughout CA means serving multiple airports well, not just one.


Wouldn’t that be my point?


Absolutely. I was just trying to explain that yes, the trend of looking at more than just SFO will continue.
"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan

Comments made here are my own and are not intended to represent the official position of Alaska Air Group
 
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Re: OAG Changes 4/15/2018: WS Drops YYC-DFW/ORD, BOS-YUL; UA Adds IAD-PBG; AS Trims More Transcons

Mon Apr 16, 2018 5:55 am

Duplicate post, please delete.
"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan

Comments made here are my own and are not intended to represent the official position of Alaska Air Group
 
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Re: OAG Changes 4/15/2018: WS Drops YYC-DFW/ORD, BOS-YUL; UA Adds IAD-PBG; AS Trims More Transcons

Mon Apr 16, 2018 11:31 am

So to clarify, is WS dropping ORD and DFW completely? Or is it just a seasonal adjustment?

Also, if the former is the case, why isn’t WS dropping IAH as well?
 
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Re: OAG Changes 4/15/2018: WS Drops YYC-DFW/ORD, BOS-YUL; UA Adds IAD-PBG; AS Trims More Transcons

Mon Apr 16, 2018 1:05 pm

n7371f wrote:
If AS can get higher yields pulling planes off LAX and SFO, then it's a smart move.

Yes in this moment, but if they bought VX to symie B6 and then cede the markets they were most afraid of B6 gaining control over then they just saved B6 a lot of money and cost themselves the same. If they bought VX to be significant in SFO that also seems at risk. Not sure why they bought them any more.
 
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Re: OAG Changes 4/15/2018: WS Drops YYC-DFW/ORD, BOS-YUL; UA Adds IAD-PBG; AS Trims More Transcons

Mon Apr 16, 2018 1:08 pm

ADrum23 wrote:
So to clarify, is WS dropping ORD and DFW completely? Or is it just a seasonal adjustment?

Also, if the former is the case, why isn’t WS dropping IAH as well?

So, as of now, they May-Oct in 2017 with one route from each city to YYX. This year the service still starts in May, but ends 3rd week of June. Clearly an earlier than planned exit unless they misfiled. Makes you wonder why they don't just abort the May opening at this point.
 
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Re: OAG Changes 4/15/2018: WS Drops YYC-DFW/ORD, BOS-YUL; UA Adds IAD-PBG; AS Trims More Transcons

Mon Apr 16, 2018 1:32 pm

EA CO AS wrote:
AirFiero wrote:
EA CO AS wrote:

AS looks at the Bay Area as a whole entity, not just at SFO. While SFO will continue to be the crown jewel for them in CA, building their presence and becoming an airline of choice to travelers throughout CA means serving multiple airports well, not just one.


Wouldn’t that be my point?


Absolutely. I was just trying to explain that yes, the trend of looking at more than just SFO will continue.


Understood, thanks.
 
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Re: OAG Changes 4/15/2018: WS Drops YYC-DFW/ORD, BOS-YUL; UA Adds IAD-PBG; AS Trims More Transcons

Mon Apr 16, 2018 1:36 pm

enilria wrote:
n7371f wrote:
If AS can get higher yields pulling planes off LAX and SFO, then it's a smart move.

Yes in this moment, but if they bought VX to symie B6 and then cede the markets they were most afraid of B6 gaining control over then they just saved B6 a lot of money and cost themselves the same. If they bought VX to be significant in SFO that also seems at risk. Not sure why they bought them any more.


I too question the purchase, and have since day one. Especially when I found out VX was carrying debt AND didn’t own their planes. But how much of the purchase was about SFO? From what’s been written on this forum, it was about west coast presence. Was it really mostly about SFO? And do you buy an airline with a pile of debt and few assets just to get market share at ONE airport?
 
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Re: OAG Changes 4/15/2018: WS Drops YYC-DFW/ORD, BOS-YUL; UA Adds IAD-PBG; AS Trims More Transcons

Mon Apr 16, 2018 1:46 pm

Aliqiout wrote:
I occasionally book that far out too, for international travel to small expensive destinations between city pairs that require interlining. For these types of trips the cost is very stable, and once I establish the need for the trip I buy it, so I don't habe to think about it anymore. The expected schedule changes are not an issue, but a seasonal cut that was known to be coming by the airline is a way for them to secure my money without intending to supply the service I purchased.

Is it really a big deal in the end though? My experience with DL after a change has been that if I have a problem with the rebooking, I just call and they basically allow me to choose any other flight options that day without charge. With an airline the size of DL, you're going to have several different options to re-accomodate you... I believe they'll also let you change to a different day that the non-stop is offered if you'd prefer. You might even be able to get a refund (?). If the latter is true, it seems like a no harm, no foul situation.
 
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Re: OAG Changes 4/15/2018: WS Drops YYC-DFW/ORD, BOS-YUL; UA Adds IAD-PBG; AS Trims More Transcons

Mon Apr 16, 2018 2:07 pm

enilria wrote:
cvgComair wrote:
It showed up last week as well, must be some sort of filing error by Delta or GoJet.

All the regionals publish a single flight to hold their IATA 2 letter code.
MIflyer12 wrote:
enilria wrote:

BOS is kinda surprising
*WS BOS-YUL JUL 2>0 AUG 2>0 SEP 2>0 OCT 2.0>0 NOV 1.9>0 DEC 1.9>0
*WS DFW-YYC JUL 1.0>0 AUG 1.0>0 SEP 1.0>0 OCT 0.9>0
*WS ORD-YYC JUL 0.8>0 AUG 0.9>0 SEP 0.9>0 OCT 0.7>0


Shall we look for DL to file BOS-YUL next week?

Probably!
tphuang wrote:
Here are the load factor on BOS-YUL from July to October according to T100.
WS 5148 60.35
QK 70065 79.61

Let's not pretend this is anything other than AC beating WS on a route that it should dominate. Canadian PoS typically dominates transborder routes.

AC doesn't have that much connectivity there, more than WS...
oosnowrat wrote:
OO bid for the contact, not UA. PenAir had it previously.

I'm betting OO is the biggest EAS operator now...or will be.
bfitzflyer wrote:
Looks like AS is trashing everything that Virgin had built at SFO. Was predictable. They can't compete with the big boys, so retrench to Seattle and secondary airports like SJC, PDX and SAN. I understand they are in this to make money, but just a shame that they have ruined what was a great product/carrier at SFO.

I thought they'd trash LAX and DAL. They had a much more sustainable #2 position in SFO.I hope they are doing this because of profitability and not because "LAX is worse, but has bigger value". If that's the case they are insane.
chrisnh wrote:
AA is going to Worcester not because it’s a great station, but to stroke Massport for some favorable treatment at Logan (which is the only reason B6 is there).

Yeah. How is that any different than the Port of NY/UA controversy?
Aliqiout wrote:
If they had no intention of flying these frequencies why were they selling them for months? I am not arguing with you. It just seems like a shady way of doing business.

So, I think DL has a long history of being "over optimistic" with capacity and then they reaccom everybody down onto fewer flights. NW pioneered the strategy. I personally consider it likely bait and switch, but they can argue it is just over-optimism.


I wholeheartedly agree with your bait-and-switch assertion.

ADrum23 wrote:
So to clarify, is WS dropping ORD and DFW completely? Or is it just a seasonal adjustment?

Also, if the former is the case, why isn’t WS dropping IAH as well?


WS must have landed enough oil company contracts to make IAH sefl-sustaining...and also due to the fact IAH does not feed a soon-to-be-ex codeshare partner.

enilria wrote:
ADrum23 wrote:
So to clarify, is WS dropping ORD and DFW completely? Or is it just a seasonal adjustment?

Also, if the former is the case, why isn’t WS dropping IAH as well?

So, as of now, they May-Oct in 2017 with one route from each city to YYX. This year the service still starts in May, but ends 3rd week of June. Clearly an earlier than planned exit unless they misfiled. Makes you wonder why they don't just abort the May opening at this point.


Looks like they're flying it until just before their announcement last week of 'limited addition' YQB-YYC and YXU-YVR. Perhaps these cuts are partially funding those additions?

However, a shift to DL hubs makes sense...but it's just puzzling that YUL-BOS got the axe as DL builds BOS back up to a hub.
 
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Re: OAG Changes 4/15/2018: WS Drops YYC-DFW/ORD, BOS-YUL; UA Adds IAD-PBG; AS Trims More Transcons

Mon Apr 16, 2018 2:17 pm

AirFiero wrote:
enilria wrote:
n7371f wrote:
If AS can get higher yields pulling planes off LAX and SFO, then it's a smart move.

Yes in this moment, but if they bought VX to symie B6 and then cede the markets they were most afraid of B6 gaining control over then they just saved B6 a lot of money and cost themselves the same. If they bought VX to be significant in SFO that also seems at risk. Not sure why they bought them any more.


I too question the purchase, and have since day one. Especially when I found out VX was carrying debt AND didn’t own their planes. But how much of the purchase was about SFO? From what’s been written on this forum, it was about west coast presence. Was it really mostly about SFO? And do you buy an airline with a pile of debt and few assets just to get market share at ONE airport?

Passenger loyalty is not something that exists across a State. People don't live across a State. You serve a City well to gain the loyalty of people in that City. That's how it works. Being the #3 or #4 airline in 9 cities in one State is much less powerful/valuable. They became the #2 carrier in SFO. That seemed like the most valuable part of the acquisition. Perhaps SFO loses money. I find it hard to believe LAX is significantly better and if you start pulling back in those markets you got nothing.

The aircraft financing thing means little. Few airlines carry any real equity in their fleet. They either have mortgage debt or lease them. That's moot. The only planes people own without debt are usually really old and have no residual value of consequence.
 
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Re: OAG Changes 4/15/2018: WS Drops YYC-DFW/ORD, BOS-YUL; UA Adds IAD-PBG; AS Trims More Transcons

Mon Apr 16, 2018 3:28 pm

Dominion301 wrote:
However, a shift to DL hubs makes sense...but it's just puzzling that YUL-BOS got the axe as DL builds BOS back up to a hub.

But WS is getting destroyed on this route by AC and they are very small in YUL compared to the AC or even TS. Western based airlines typically don't get too much traction in French Canada.

Passenger loyalty is not something that exists across a State. People don't live across a State. You serve a City well to gain the loyalty of people in that City. That's how it works. Being the #3 or #4 airline in 9 cities in one State is much less powerful/valuable. They became the #2 carrier in SFO. That seemed like the most valuable part of the acquisition. Perhaps SFO loses money. I find it hard to believe LAX is significantly better and if you start pulling back in those markets you got nothing.

Also SJC is not a high yielding station at all. It might be the lowest yielding station for AS.
 
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Re: OAG Changes 4/15/2018: WS Drops YYC-DFW/ORD, BOS-YUL; UA Adds IAD-PBG; AS Trims More Transcons

Mon Apr 16, 2018 3:42 pm

HVNandrew wrote:
Aliqiout wrote:
I occasionally book that far out too, for international travel to small expensive destinations between city pairs that require interlining. For these types of trips the cost is very stable, and once I establish the need for the trip I buy it, so I don't habe to think about it anymore. The expected schedule changes are not an issue, but a seasonal cut that was known to be coming by the airline is a way for them to secure my money without intending to supply the service I purchased.

Is it really a big deal in the end though? My experience with DL after a change has been that if I have a problem with the rebooking, I just call and they basically allow me to choose any other flight options that day without charge. With an airline the size of DL, you're going to have several different options to re-accomodate you... I believe they'll also let you change to a different day that the non-stop is offered if you'd prefer. You might even be able to get a refund (?). If the latter is true, it seems like a no harm, no foul situation.

Usually it is not a huge deal, although there are many destinations that have very few alternatives, even using DL.

The issue I have is not really the impact of any individual change, it's the dishonesty and cumulative profit DL is likely making from this practice. Tickets bought this far out are usually not cheap. Once they have your money they are likely to keep it, few people will demand a refund and rebook on their own, even if they would save money.
 
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Re: OAG Changes 4/15/2018: WS Drops YYC-DFW/ORD, BOS-YUL; UA Adds IAD-PBG; AS Trims More Transcons

Mon Apr 16, 2018 5:14 pm

tphuang wrote:
Dominion301 wrote:
However, a shift to DL hubs makes sense...but it's just puzzling that YUL-BOS got the axe as DL builds BOS back up to a hub.

But WS is getting destroyed on this route by AC and they are very small in YUL compared to the AC or even TS. Western based airlines typically don't get too much traction in French Canada.

Passenger loyalty is not something that exists across a State. People don't live across a State. You serve a City well to gain the loyalty of people in that City. That's how it works. Being the #3 or #4 airline in 9 cities in one State is much less powerful/valuable. They became the #2 carrier in SFO. That seemed like the most valuable part of the acquisition. Perhaps SFO loses money. I find it hard to believe LAX is significantly better and if you start pulling back in those markets you got nothing.

Also SJC is not a high yielding station at all. It might be the lowest yielding station for AS.


Do you have some numbers to back that up?

SJC isn’t a big tourist market, and my understanding is that airlines make most of their revenue on full-fare paying business passengers. Wouldn’t Silicon Valley be a good driver of revenue?
 
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Re: OAG Changes 4/15/2018: WS Drops YYC-DFW/ORD, BOS-YUL; UA Adds IAD-PBG; AS Trims More Transcons

Mon Apr 16, 2018 5:19 pm

enilria wrote:
AirFiero wrote:
enilria wrote:
Yes in this moment, but if they bought VX to symie B6 and then cede the markets they were most afraid of B6 gaining control over then they just saved B6 a lot of money and cost themselves the same. If they bought VX to be significant in SFO that also seems at risk. Not sure why they bought them any more.


I too question the purchase, and have since day one. Especially when I found out VX was carrying debt AND didn’t own their planes. But how much of the purchase was about SFO? From what’s been written on this forum, it was about west coast presence. Was it really mostly about SFO? And do you buy an airline with a pile of debt and few assets just to get market share at ONE airport?

Passenger loyalty is not something that exists across a State. People don't live across a State. You serve a City well to gain the loyalty of people in that City. That's how it works. Being the #3 or #4 airline in 9 cities in one State is much less powerful/valuable. They became the #2 carrier in SFO. That seemed like the most valuable part of the acquisition. Perhaps SFO loses money. I find it hard to believe LAX is significantly better and if you start pulling back in those markets you got nothing.

The aircraft financing thing means little. Few airlines carry any real equity in their fleet. They either have mortgage debt or lease them. That's moot. The only planes people own without debt are usually really old and have no residual value of consequence.


Points all considered.

Wouldn’t passenger loyalty be meaningful in a “state” market like California, with the HUGE volume of traffic between northern and Southern California? Think UA and WN, with their volume of flights and number of destinations just in state. VX had loyalty, but I’m sure UA and WN do as well.

I’m very surprised that VX by itself was the #2 carrier at SFO. Does anyone have some numbers on that?
 
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Re: OAG Changes 4/15/2018: WS Drops YYC-DFW/ORD, BOS-YUL; UA Adds IAD-PBG; AS Trims More Transcons

Mon Apr 16, 2018 5:28 pm

chrisair wrote:
EA CO AS wrote:
Especially considering the one SFOJFK and one LAXJFK pulled are now funding a 3rd SEAJFK along with a SJCJFK with optimal timing, giving AS great Bay Area-JFK options, not just limited to SFO.


Curious how a third SEA-JFK flight gives "AS great Bay Area-JFK options..."

Unless they're going to funnel people through SEA?


Perhaps you missed that one of the two new JFK flights was out of SJC.
 
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Re: OAG Changes 4/15/2018: WS Drops YYC-DFW/ORD, BOS-YUL; UA Adds IAD-PBG; AS Trims More Transcons

Mon Apr 16, 2018 5:41 pm

AirFiero wrote:
enilria wrote:
AirFiero wrote:

I too question the purchase, and have since day one. Especially when I found out VX was carrying debt AND didn’t own their planes. But how much of the purchase was about SFO? From what’s been written on this forum, it was about west coast presence. Was it really mostly about SFO? And do you buy an airline with a pile of debt and few assets just to get market share at ONE airport?

Passenger loyalty is not something that exists across a State. People don't live across a State. You serve a City well to gain the loyalty of people in that City. That's how it works. Being the #3 or #4 airline in 9 cities in one State is much less powerful/valuable. They became the #2 carrier in SFO. That seemed like the most valuable part of the acquisition. Perhaps SFO loses money. I find it hard to believe LAX is significantly better and if you start pulling back in those markets you got nothing.

The aircraft financing thing means little. Few airlines carry any real equity in their fleet. They either have mortgage debt or lease them. That's moot. The only planes people own without debt are usually really old and have no residual value of consequence.


Points all considered.

Wouldn’t passenger loyalty be meaningful in a “state” market like California, with the HUGE volume of traffic between northern and Southern California? Think UA and WN, with their volume of flights and number of destinations just in state. VX had loyalty, but I’m sure UA and WN do as well.

I’m very surprised that VX by itself was the #2 carrier at SFO. Does anyone have some numbers on that?

Depends on the metric you use, but I posted it before. Merged they are #2 on O&D which is the most important for local loyalty.
DB1BYE3Q17
#1 UA 6.7m
#2 AS/VX 2.8m
#3 AA 1.99m

OAG2017
Departures
#1 UA 102k
#2 AS/VX 30k
#3 AA 18k
 
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Re: OAG Changes 4/15/2018: WS Drops YYC-DFW/ORD, BOS-YUL; UA Adds IAD-PBG; AS Trims More Transcons

Mon Apr 16, 2018 6:44 pm

enilria wrote:
*AS JFK-LAX JUL 6>5 AUG 6>5 SEP 6>5 OCT 6>5 NOV 6>5 DEC 6>5
*AS JFK-SFO AUG 5>4 SEP 5>4 OCT 5>4 NOV 5>4 DEC 5>4
AS PDX-PSP JUN 0.2>0.1



Just curious, but why did you omit the SEAJFK and SJCJFK additions when composing this? That, coupled with the thread title about AS "trims more transcons" almost seems like there's an anti-AS bias at work. The reality is that there's no net change in the transcon market by AS with these schedule and market adjustments.
"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan

Comments made here are my own and are not intended to represent the official position of Alaska Air Group
 
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Re: OAG Changes 4/15/2018: WS Drops YYC-DFW/ORD, BOS-YUL; UA Adds IAD-PBG; AS Trims More Transcons

Mon Apr 16, 2018 8:36 pm

EA CO AS wrote:
enilria wrote:
*AS JFK-LAX JUL 6>5 AUG 6>5 SEP 6>5 OCT 6>5 NOV 6>5 DEC 6>5
*AS JFK-SFO AUG 5>4 SEP 5>4 OCT 5>4 NOV 5>4 DEC 5>4
AS PDX-PSP JUN 0.2>0.1



Just curious, but why did you omit the SEAJFK and SJCJFK additions when composing this? That, coupled with the thread title about AS "trims more transcons" almost seems like there's an anti-AS bias at work. The reality is that there's no net change in the transcon market by AS with these schedule and market adjustments.


Not only that but it’s a reduction from like 6 to 5 flights a day. Also didn’t address airplane size. Maybe some are going from an A319 to a 737-900ER.

Airlines make minor frequency adjustments and shuffling all the time.

When I read the title, I thought AS was doing some kind of wholesale cutback of transcon routes.
 
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Re: OAG Changes 4/15/2018: WS Drops YYC-DFW/ORD, BOS-YUL; UA Adds IAD-PBG; AS Trims More Transcons

Mon Apr 16, 2018 9:24 pm

AirFiero wrote:
tphuang wrote:
Dominion301 wrote:
However, a shift to DL hubs makes sense...but it's just puzzling that YUL-BOS got the axe as DL builds BOS back up to a hub.

But WS is getting destroyed on this route by AC and they are very small in YUL compared to the AC or even TS. Western based airlines typically don't get too much traction in French Canada.

Passenger loyalty is not something that exists across a State. People don't live across a State. You serve a City well to gain the loyalty of people in that City. That's how it works. Being the #3 or #4 airline in 9 cities in one State is much less powerful/valuable. They became the #2 carrier in SFO. That seemed like the most valuable part of the acquisition. Perhaps SFO loses money. I find it hard to believe LAX is significantly better and if you start pulling back in those markets you got nothing.

Also SJC is not a high yielding station at all. It might be the lowest yielding station for AS.


Do you have some numbers to back that up?

SJC isn’t a big tourist market, and my understanding is that airlines make most of their revenue on full-fare paying business passengers. Wouldn’t Silicon Valley be a good driver of revenue?

i just have some fare/lf numbers that's publicly available. I think my comment is probably unfair. ANC/SEA/PDX are obviously the highest yielding stations for AS. Amongst SFO/SJC/LAX/SAN, the numbers I've seen would indicate SJC is less high yielding Of course, it also depends on the route and the competition on that route.
 
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Re: OAG Changes 4/15/2018: WS Drops YYC-DFW/ORD, BOS-YUL; UA Adds IAD-PBG; AS Trims More Transcons

Mon Apr 16, 2018 11:20 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
enilria wrote:

BOS is kinda surprising
*WS BOS-YUL JUL 2>0 AUG 2>0 SEP 2>0 OCT 2.0>0 NOV 1.9>0 DEC 1.9>0
*WS DFW-YYC JUL 1.0>0 AUG 1.0>0 SEP 1.0>0 OCT 0.9>0
*WS ORD-YYC JUL 0.8>0 AUG 0.9>0 SEP 0.9>0 OCT 0.7>0


Shall we look for DL to file BOS-YUL next week?


Remember back in the 70s/80s, Delta flying L-1011s on it ?
 
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Re: OAG Changes 4/15/2018: WS Drops YYC-DFW/ORD, BOS-YUL; UA Adds IAD-PBG; AS Trims More Transcons

Mon Apr 16, 2018 11:23 pm

tphuang wrote:
AirFiero wrote:
tphuang wrote:
But WS is getting destroyed on this route by AC and they are very small in YUL compared to the AC or even TS. Western based airlines typically don't get too much traction in French Canada.


Also SJC is not a high yielding station at all. It might be the lowest yielding station for AS.


Do you have some numbers to back that up?

SJC isn’t a big tourist market, and my understanding is that airlines make most of their revenue on full-fare paying business passengers. Wouldn’t Silicon Valley be a good driver of revenue?

i just have some fare/lf numbers that's publicly available. I think my comment is probably unfair. ANC/SEA/PDX are obviously the highest yielding stations for AS. Amongst SFO/SJC/LAX/SAN, the numbers I've seen would indicate SJC is less high yielding Of course, it also depends on the route and the competition on that route.


Ok, fair enough. I hope AS does well on the SJC trans cons. It was too many years that SJC had few or zero nonstops.
 
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Re: OAG Changes 4/15/2018: WS Drops YYC-DFW/ORD, BOS-YUL; UA Adds IAD-PBG; AS Trims More Transcons

Mon Apr 16, 2018 11:25 pm

enilria wrote:
AirFiero wrote:
enilria wrote:
Passenger loyalty is not something that exists across a State. People don't live across a State. You serve a City well to gain the loyalty of people in that City. That's how it works. Being the #3 or #4 airline in 9 cities in one State is much less powerful/valuable. They became the #2 carrier in SFO. That seemed like the most valuable part of the acquisition. Perhaps SFO loses money. I find it hard to believe LAX is significantly better and if you start pulling back in those markets you got nothing.

The aircraft financing thing means little. Few airlines carry any real equity in their fleet. They either have mortgage debt or lease them. That's moot. The only planes people own without debt are usually really old and have no residual value of consequence.


Points all considered.

Wouldn’t passenger loyalty be meaningful in a “state” market like California, with the HUGE volume of traffic between northern and Southern California? Think UA and WN, with their volume of flights and number of destinations just in state. VX had loyalty, but I’m sure UA and WN do as well.

I’m very surprised that VX by itself was the #2 carrier at SFO. Does anyone have some numbers on that?

Depends on the metric you use, but I posted it before. Merged they are #2 on O&D which is the most important for local loyalty.
DB1BYE3Q17
#1 UA 6.7m
#2 AS/VX 2.8m
#3 AA 1.99m

OAG2017
Departures
#1 UA 102k
#2 AS/VX 30k
#3 AA 18k


Thanks. I was surprised. I would have thought one of the “big 3” would have more market share. Or even WN, but I don’t follow SFO very closely.
 
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Re: OAG Changes 4/15/2018: WS Drops YYC-DFW/ORD, BOS-YUL; UA Adds IAD-PBG; AS Trims More Transcons

Tue Apr 17, 2018 4:03 am

I don't disagree with you. If NYC-SJC was a big $ maker, others would have already jumped on it.

Remember...one of the motivations in buying Virgin America was to erase a competitor that was hindering yields in AS' core markets. And B6 buying Virgin America may not have changed much of the status-quo either.

enilria wrote:
n7371f wrote:
If AS can get higher yields pulling planes off LAX and SFO, then it's a smart move.

Yes in this moment, but if they bought VX to symie B6 and then cede the markets they were most afraid of B6 gaining control over then they just saved B6 a lot of money and cost themselves the same. If they bought VX to be significant in SFO that also seems at risk. Not sure why they bought them any more.
 
EvanWSFO
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Re: OAG Changes 4/15/2018: WS Drops YYC-DFW/ORD, BOS-YUL; UA Adds IAD-PBG; AS Trims More Transcons

Tue Apr 17, 2018 4:08 am

BoeingGuy wrote:
EA CO AS wrote:
enilria wrote:
*AS JFK-LAX JUL 6>5 AUG 6>5 SEP 6>5 OCT 6>5 NOV 6>5 DEC 6>5
*AS JFK-SFO AUG 5>4 SEP 5>4 OCT 5>4 NOV 5>4 DEC 5>4
AS PDX-PSP JUN 0.2>0.1



Just curious, but why did you omit the SEAJFK and SJCJFK additions when composing this? That, coupled with the thread title about AS "trims more transcons" almost seems like there's an anti-AS bias at work. The reality is that there's no net change in the transcon market by AS with these schedule and market adjustments.


Not only that but it’s a reduction from like 6 to 5 flights a day. Also didn’t address airplane size. Maybe some are going from an A319 to a 737-900ER.

Airlines make minor frequency adjustments and shuffling all the time.

When I read the title, I thought AS was doing some kind of wholesale cutback of transcon routes.


The AS haters are going to nit-pick every thing they do. Upgrading the a/c doesn't matter. People want to trash AS for cutting any transcon flight. Lets look at a year from now. I suspect AS will have a fairly robust transcon presence.
 
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EA CO AS
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Re: OAG Changes 4/15/2018: WS Drops YYC-DFW/ORD, BOS-YUL; UA Adds IAD-PBG; AS Trims More Transcons

Tue Apr 17, 2018 5:18 am

n7371f wrote:
Remember...one of the motivations in buying Virgin America was to erase a competitor that was hindering yields in AS' core markets.


Ugh, this again?

Do you want to know how many markets AS and VX overlapped in prior to the acquisition?

Six.

You'd be hard-pressed to find two more complementary route systems to put together. Fact of the matter is, AS wasn't interested in eliminating a competitor; they were interested in keeping a more competent, nimble competitor than VX - namely B6 - from coming in and getting critical mass on the west coast, where AS viewed their future expansion taking place. All B6 did was accelerate the process substantially.
"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan

Comments made here are my own and are not intended to represent the official position of Alaska Air Group
 
airliner371
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Re: OAG Changes 4/15/2018: WS Drops YYC-DFW/ORD, BOS-YUL; UA Adds IAD-PBG; AS Trims More Transcons

Tue Apr 17, 2018 5:31 am

EA CO AS wrote:
n7371f wrote:
Remember...one of the motivations in buying Virgin America was to erase a competitor that was hindering yields in AS' core markets.


Ugh, this again?

Do you want to know how many markets AS and VX overlapped in prior to the acquisition?

Six.

You'd be hard-pressed to find two more complementary route systems to put together. Fact of the matter is, AS wasn't interested in eliminating a competitor; they were interested in keeping a more competent, nimble competitor than VX - namely B6 - from coming in and getting critical mass on the west coast, where AS viewed their future expansion taking place. All B6 did was accelerate the process substantially.

I'm sorry, but how can you say VX and AS weren't competitors before the acquisition? They didn't compete directly on many routes but AS was connecting passengers on many of the same routes VX was operating. It's like saying the AirTran ATL hub didn't compete with Southwest because Southwest didn't serve ATL. They still competed on getting people places, primarily to Florida. AS competed strongly with VX through their massive SEA hub to get people to the east coast.

AA and US overlapped with what? Some twelve or so routes I believe (it was some small number). You're gonna tell me AA and US didn't compete aggressively with each other?

Keep in mind, n7371f didn't say it was the only motivation, but it was a motivation. They definitely got a significant boost in California, specifically on transcon routes, but they also eliminated a competitor in the process, not something to just brush off...

And that's not necessarily a bad thing. I'd argue a stronger Alaska provides more competition, broadly speaking, than a separate AS and VX could.
 
n7371f
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Re: OAG Changes 4/15/2018: WS Drops YYC-DFW/ORD, BOS-YUL; UA Adds IAD-PBG; AS Trims More Transcons

Tue Apr 17, 2018 6:46 am

Don't Stop Believing - Journey.

This took 5 seconds to search...since I'm totally full of it.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/danielreed ... 76e0ed3ff5

EA CO AS wrote:
n7371f wrote:
Remember...one of the motivations in buying Virgin America was to erase a competitor that was hindering yields in AS' core markets.


Ugh, this again?

Do you want to know how many markets AS and VX overlapped in prior to the acquisition?

Six.

You'd be hard-pressed to find two more complementary route systems to put together. Fact of the matter is, AS wasn't interested in eliminating a competitor; they were interested in keeping a more competent, nimble competitor than VX - namely B6 - from coming in and getting critical mass on the west coast, where AS viewed their future expansion taking place. All B6 did was accelerate the process substantially.
 
jordanh
Posts: 227
Joined: Fri Sep 08, 2017 11:56 pm

Re: OAG Changes 4/15/2018: WS Drops YYC-DFW/ORD, BOS-YUL; UA Adds IAD-PBG; AS Trims More Transcons

Tue Apr 17, 2018 7:18 am

SumChristianus wrote:
4x daily Moscow-New York, odd timing for an increase, especially being Russia
Have they ever been that high before?


Those are extra sections during World Cup in Russia... nothing more.

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