Thibault973
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DY to serve Cayenne (French Guiana)

Thu May 17, 2018 11:10 am

Hi !

According to local newscast, Norwegian is to serve Cayenne, French Guiana.

According to them, DY as been in talk with local authorities to launch flights for about 2 years now. The article even says that tickets were supposed to go on sale this month but the launch has been delayed due to a shortage of traffic controllers which unable flights after 9pm, which is when DY plans to operate its flights.

https://la1ere.francetvinfo.fr/guyane/norwegian-obtiendra-t-elle-autorisations-necessaires-desservir-guyane-589693.html (french only sorry)

No destination is mentioned but the most obvious ones are either Paris or the French Caribbean.

What surprises me is that contrary to the French Caribbean which receives tons of tourism, CAY is a really small market that relies solely on VFR and Guiana Space Centre related traffic (hence why AF uses rather premium heavy aircrafts on its route to Guiana).

Currently CAY receives up to 2 daily flights to ORY, 10w to FDF(flight continues to PTP, PAP and MIA), 4w to BEL, 3w to PBM (one flight continues to GEO and MIA) et 1w to FOR plus a couple dailies interior flights.

What do you guys think ? Wishful thinking from the local authorities or thinking outside the box from DY ?
 
dredgy
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Re: DY to serve Cayenne (French Guiana)

Thu May 17, 2018 11:45 am

Hmm, the Guyana’s are a very isolated part of the world aviation-wise, but are well connected to the colonial powers. I don’t see why Cayenne would need another flight from Paris or even the French Caribbean, though that seems more likely.

The Guyana’s are so isolated from the rest of South America (it took me 30 hours or so to get from PBM to EZE, would’ve probably been quicker going via Amsterdam). A direct service to a major hub (GRU, BOG) would be cool, but there’s no business case to be made there. Obviously with Norwegian Argentina they see opportunity in the South American market though
 
AirInterCRV
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Re: DY to serve Cayenne (French Guiana)

Thu May 17, 2018 1:25 pm

These people have so many 787s that they're going to try their luck on every route for which they don't need bilateral rights...
 
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787Driver
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Re: DY to serve Cayenne (French Guiana)

Thu May 17, 2018 1:43 pm

Never checked the prices to PBM, but I'd imagine they are very expensive since only very few carriers fly there from Europe (Suriname, KLM(?), AF(?)) So maybe the idea isn't that bad? They could slash the prices by a lot I would think and still be profitable.
 
MalevTU134
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Re: DY to serve Cayenne (French Guiana)

Thu May 17, 2018 2:03 pm

787Driver wrote:
Never checked the prices to PBM, but I'd imagine they are very expensive since only very few carriers fly there from Europe (Suriname, KLM(?), AF(?)) So maybe the idea isn't that bad? They could slash the prices by a lot I would think and still be profitable.

PBM is Paramaribo, in Surinam. Only PY (Surinam Airways) flies there from Europe. DY would need traffic rights for that.
CAY is a town in France, in the DOM (Département d'Outre-Mer) of Guyane Française, so is within the EU, and DY can freely fly there from any other point within the EU.
 
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787Driver
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Re: DY to serve Cayenne (French Guiana)

Thu May 17, 2018 2:10 pm

MalevTU134 wrote:
787Driver wrote:
Never checked the prices to PBM, but I'd imagine they are very expensive since only very few carriers fly there from Europe (Suriname, KLM(?), AF(?)) So maybe the idea isn't that bad? They could slash the prices by a lot I would think and still be profitable.

PBM is Paramaribo, in Surinam. Only PY (Surinam Airways) flies there from Europe. DY would need traffic rights for that.
CAY is a town in France, in the DOM (Département d'Outre-Mer) of Guyane Française, so is within the EU, and DY can freely fly there from any other point within the EU.


Apologies. I suppose that my point is still valid
 
factsonly
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Re: DY to serve Cayenne (French Guiana)

Thu May 17, 2018 2:15 pm

MalevTU134 wrote:
PBM is Paramaribo, in Surinam. Only PY (Surinam Airways) flies there from Europe.


Sorry, but AMS-PBM is operated by 3x carriers:

- PY 4x weekly A340
- KL 4x weekly B744
- OR 1x weekly B788

PAR-CAY is operated by 2x carriers:

- TX 5x weekly A332
- AF 7x weekly B772
 
MalevTU134
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Re: DY to serve Cayenne (French Guiana)

Thu May 17, 2018 2:46 pm

factsonly wrote:
MalevTU134 wrote:
PBM is Paramaribo, in Surinam. Only PY (Surinam Airways) flies there from Europe.


Sorry, but AMS-PBM is operated by 3x carriers:

- PY 4x weekly A340
- KL 4x weekly B744
- OR 1x weekly B788

PAR-CAY is operated by 2x carriers:

- TX 5x weekly A332
- AF 7x weekly B772

Thanks for clarifying this!
 
guyanam
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Re: DY to serve Cayenne (French Guiana)

Thu May 17, 2018 2:49 pm

dredgy wrote:
Hmm, the Guyana’s are a very isolated part of the world aviation-wise, but are well connected to the colonial powers.



GEO is isolated from the UK with no direct service. Its connections are to North America (JFK, YYZ and MIA) and to the Caribbean and PTY. PTY allows connections to points in deeper South America. PBM/CAY both have 4x weekly to BEL, which should offer connections into deeper South America.
 
dredgy
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Re: DY to serve Cayenne (French Guiana)

Thu May 17, 2018 3:03 pm

guyanam wrote:
dredgy wrote:
Hmm, the Guyana’s are a very isolated part of the world aviation-wise, but are well connected to the colonial powers.



GEO is isolated from the UK with no direct service. Its connections are to North America (JFK, YYZ and MIA) and to the Caribbean and PTY. PTY allows connections to points in deeper South America. PBM/CAY both have 4x weekly to BEL, which should offer connections into deeper South America.


I’m familiar with all of that as I’ve travelled extensively in the area and it’s very difficult with intra-South America connections - you find an itinerary that works and then you realise it’s on the wrong day and that day doesn’t have flights. To get to Buenos Aires I flew PBM-CAY-BEL-GRU-EZE- was possible the most draining day of travel I’ve ever had and there were business class flights in the mix! The stop in Cayenne is painful as French customs are thorough in searching the plane. We stopped for an hour and a half at 2AM and the very annoying bit was nobody embarked or disembarked in Cayenne!

Another option I think was via Trinidad and Tobago and Colombia. Panama, while a bit out of the way for South American connections, would be a welcome addition to CAY and/or PBM. Belem is quite a nice airport but it is not ideal for connections as limited destinations and frequencies.
 
Thibault973
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Re: DY to serve Cayenne (French Guiana)

Thu May 17, 2018 3:24 pm

787Driver wrote:
Never checked the prices to PBM, but I'd imagine they are very expensive since only very few carriers fly there from Europe (Suriname, KLM(?), AF(?)) So maybe the idea isn't that bad? They could slash the prices by a lot I would think and still be profitable.


I don't know about PBM but the problem we have in CAY is that demand is extremely seasonal. Virtually all flights are full to the roof during the holidays while airlines are flying empty planes the rest of the year (but flights are still profitable due to J being most often than not full thanks to the Guiana Space Centre).

Last summer, the Paris route saw one daily 468 seater AF 77W + one daily 354 seats TX 333 while its down to 1D AF 77E (280 seats) + 4W TX 333 at the moment. Same for the Belem route which was flown 9 weekly (5 PY + 4 AD) and is now down to 4W (3 PY + 1 AD).

This results in very low prices in winter (you can get tickets to Paris for as low as 450$ return, a 9h flight) and really expensive ones in summer (you'd be lucky if you found anything under 1 300$ in july-august). The Caribbean AF hoper flight is always really expensive, around 600$ for non refundable ticket on a 2 hours ride to FDF, around 1000$ to MIA. Many people actually drive to PBM (7 hours drive + 40$ visa) to catch PY's flight to MIA (via POS, GEO or CUR) or MCO (via GEO) which are always way cheaper.
 
chrisp390
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Re: DY to serve Cayenne (French Guiana)

Thu May 17, 2018 3:30 pm

Surprised AA would not launch this route from MIA.
 
Thibault973
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Re: DY to serve Cayenne (French Guiana)

Thu May 17, 2018 3:48 pm

dredgy wrote:
guyanam wrote:
dredgy wrote:
Hmm, the Guyana’s are a very isolated part of the world aviation-wise, but are well connected to the colonial powers.


I’m familiar with all of that as I’ve travelled extensively in the area and it’s very difficult with intra-South America connections - you find an itinerary that works and then you realise it’s on the wrong day and that day doesn’t have flights. To get to Buenos Aires I flew PBM-CAY-BEL-GRU-EZE- was possible the most draining day of travel I’ve ever had and there were business class flights in the mix! The stop in Cayenne is painful as French customs are thorough in searching the plane. We stopped for an hour and a half at 2AM and the very annoying bit was nobody embarked or disembarked in Cayenne!

Another option I think was via Trinidad and Tobago and Colombia. Panama, while a bit out of the way for South American connections, would be a welcome addition to CAY and/or PBM. Belem is quite a nice airport but it is not ideal for connections as limited destinations and frequencies.


G3 runs a 2 weekly PBM-BEL flight which connects to their BEL-GRU flights. From CAY the easiest option is CAY-FOR with AD then FOR-EZE with G3. Both flights are sat. only. The CAY flight arrives at 7:45pm and the EZE flight departs at 11:55pm. I know many people who've done it as it is quiet "cheap" (around 700$ for the whole trip)
 
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spinkid
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Re: DY to serve Cayenne (French Guiana)

Thu May 17, 2018 4:41 pm

DY might offer service from FLL or JFK like it does to FDF and PTP.
 
dredgy
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Re: DY to serve Cayenne (French Guiana)

Thu May 17, 2018 4:51 pm

Thibault973 wrote:
G3 runs a 2 weekly PBM-BEL flight which connects to their BEL-GRU flights. From CAY the easiest option is CAY-FOR with AD then FOR-EZE with G3. Both flights are sat. only. The CAY flight arrives at 7:45pm and the EZE flight departs at 11:55pm. I know many people who've done it as it is quiet "cheap" (around 700$ for the whole trip)


Yeah I flew Gol the other way BEL-PBM, but didn’t line up for the day I needed to depart.
 
guyanam
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Re: DY to serve Cayenne (French Guiana)

Fri May 18, 2018 3:09 am

dredgy wrote:
Thibault973 wrote:
G3 runs a 2 weekly PBM-BEL flight which connects to their BEL-GRU flights. From CAY the easiest option is CAY-FOR with AD then FOR-EZE with G3. Both flights are sat. only. The CAY flight arrives at 7:45pm and the EZE flight departs at 11:55pm. I know many people who've done it as it is quiet "cheap" (around 700$ for the whole trip)


Yeah I flew Gol the other way BEL-PBM, but didn’t line up for the day I needed to depart.



The issue with the French territories of the Americas is that they are outposts of Europe and not really part of the Americas. Even PTP and FDF are mainly connected to each other, to St Martin (French), CAY and to France itself. Flights to other places outside of the winter season are limited with none of these destinations even having daily service. CAY is even more isolated from places other than France (inclusive of the Antilles), aside from less than daily flights to BEL, FOR (low frequency) and PBM.

To go to PTP, FDF and CAY one is really in Europe, strange as it might seem to most.
 
A380MSN004
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Re: DY to serve Cayenne (French Guiana)

Fri May 18, 2018 4:03 am

spinkid wrote:
DY might offer service from FLL or JFK like it does to FDF and PTP.


They will loose money if they do that. CAY is not as much interesting as FDF and PTP
 
A380MSN004
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Re: DY to serve Cayenne (French Guiana)

Fri May 18, 2018 4:11 am

2016 traffic PAR - CAY 295 037 pax

There's already AF and TX on this route.

The Guy at DY Who is thinking about this route must be High on something. There's No demand for adding extra capacity on this route
 
continental004
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Re: DY to serve Cayenne (French Guiana)

Fri May 18, 2018 4:49 am

Well that came out of left field. Will those flights go to NA? There is barely even a market for PTP/FDF from NA, much less to CAY.
 
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ro1960
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Re: DY to serve Cayenne (French Guiana)

Fri May 18, 2018 6:13 am

A380MSN004 wrote:
2016 traffic PAR - CAY 295 037 pax

There's already AF and TX on this route.

The Guy at DY Who is thinking about this route must be High on something. There's No demand for adding extra capacity on this route


"The Guy at DY Who is High on something" thinks he can steal pax from the other two because he'll offer a better product at a better price. The capacity is not the issue.
 
WHYIOUEL
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Re: DY to serve Cayenne (French Guiana)

Fri May 18, 2018 6:41 am

PTP/FDF to FLL/JFK/YUL/CAY. It’s a seasonal assignment for the winter 2018/2019.
 
WHYIOUEL
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Re: DY to serve Cayenne (French Guiana)

Fri May 18, 2018 6:56 am

A380MSN004 wrote:
spinkid wrote:
DY might offer service from FLL or JFK like it does to FDF and PTP.


They will loose money if they do that. CAY is not as much interesting as FDF and PTP


PTP/FDF to CAY and YUL on the 738
 
LJ
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Re: DY to serve Cayenne (French Guiana)

Fri May 18, 2018 9:28 am

ro1960 wrote:
A380MSN004 wrote:
2016 traffic PAR - CAY 295 037 pax

There's already AF and TX on this route.

The Guy at DY Who is thinking about this route must be High on something. There's No demand for adding extra capacity on this route


"The Guy at DY Who is High on something" thinks he can steal pax from the other two because he'll offer a better product at a better price. The capacity is not the issue.


You still need to fill the aircraft and when you have a highly seasonal market when the profits are to be made in just a few months of the year, one can wonder if you cannot deploy your asset somewhere else more profitable. Especially if one of your competitors (in this case AF) gets all the premium traffic as it guarantees a yearround service.
 
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ro1960
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Re: DY to serve Cayenne (French Guiana)

Fri May 18, 2018 10:52 am

LJ wrote:
ro1960 wrote:
A380MSN004 wrote:
2016 traffic PAR - CAY 295 037 pax

There's already AF and TX on this route.

The Guy at DY Who is thinking about this route must be High on something. There's No demand for adding extra capacity on this route


"The Guy at DY Who is High on something" thinks he can steal pax from the other two because he'll offer a better product at a better price. The capacity is not the issue.


You still need to fill the aircraft and when you have a highly seasonal market when the profits are to be made in just a few months of the year, one can wonder if you cannot deploy your asset somewhere else more profitable. Especially if one of your competitors (in this case AF) gets all the premium traffic as it guarantees a yearround service.


The competitors are two but there was a time when they were one (AF). So if TX managed to find their niche, DY can probably find theirs, too. However they're in the process of obtaining traffic rights not sending their planes there yet. They have applied for many traffic rights elsewhere, this doesn't necessarily mean they will operate the routes.
Last edited by ro1960 on Fri May 18, 2018 10:57 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
MalevTU134
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Re: DY to serve Cayenne (French Guiana)

Fri May 18, 2018 10:54 am

ro1960 wrote:
LJ wrote:
ro1960 wrote:

"The Guy at DY Who is High on something" thinks he can steal pax from the other two because he'll offer a better product at a better price. The capacity is not the issue.


You still need to fill the aircraft and when you have a highly seasonal market when the profits are to be made in just a few months of the year, one can wonder if you cannot deploy your asset somewhere else more profitable. Especially if one of your competitors (in this case AF) gets all the premium traffic as it guarantees a yearround service.


The competitors are two but there was a time when they were one (AF). So if TX managed to find their niche, DY can probably find theirs, too. I'm somehow confident that DY know what they're doing.

It seems they will operate CAY-FDF/PTP, not Paris...
 
NozPerry
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Re: DY to serve Cayenne (French Guiana)

Fri May 18, 2018 11:16 am

For what it’s worth I think they’ll fly there from their winter (EU) bases in the Caribbean in PTP and FDF.
I love the feel of a Go Around in the morning
 
Thibault973
Topic Author
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Re: DY to serve Cayenne (French Guiana)

Fri May 18, 2018 2:05 pm

ro1960 wrote:
LJ wrote:
ro1960 wrote:

"The Guy at DY Who is High on something" thinks he can steal pax from the other two because he'll offer a better product at a better price. The capacity is not the issue.


You still need to fill the aircraft and when you have a highly seasonal market when the profits are to be made in just a few months of the year, one can wonder if you cannot deploy your asset somewhere else more profitable. Especially if one of your competitors (in this case AF) gets all the premium traffic as it guarantees a yearround service.


The competitors are two but there was a time when they were one (AF). So if TX managed to find their niche, DY can probably find theirs, too. However they're in the process of obtaining traffic rights not sending their planes there yet. They have applied for many traffic rights elsewhere, this doesn't necessarily mean they will operate the routes.


At one point they were even three AF (from CDG) SS and IW (from ORY). When AF was the only operator, they flew 2 dailies 747 in the summer, one to ORY and one to CDG.
 
DominoxX
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Re: DY to serve Cayenne (French Guiana)

Fri May 18, 2018 2:54 pm

This may sound dreamy
What about LATAM launch a 2/3x weekly flight to CAY from GRU (or BOG) and advertise the new destination as an alternative to, say, Punta Cana or instead as something completely new? And in Guyana as the only option to reach the rest of the continent and connections to Miami from Bogota, and snag it before Copa does? LATAM brand awareness in Guyana could only bring good. I would rather loose money on this route for a few years to then efficiently own the market, than instead have Copa or Avianca take it sooner or later. It's a small market so I guess there's room for one.

If done by an A319 that's 144 seats to fill..

Just a thought..
All I need in life is a QF/LA biz seat for me and my malinois doggo, edibles and the 2000's best diva hits
 
Thibault973
Topic Author
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Re: DY to serve Cayenne (French Guiana)

Fri May 18, 2018 3:07 pm

DominoxX wrote:
This may sound dreamy
What about LATAM launch a 2/3x weekly flight to CAY from GRU (or BOG) and advertise the new destination as an alternative to, say, Punta Cana or instead as something completely new? And in Guyana as the only option to reach the rest of the continent and connections to Miami from Bogota, and snag it before Copa does? LATAM brand awareness in Guyana could only bring good. I would rather loose money on this route for a few years to then efficiently own the market, than instead have Copa or Avianca take it sooner or later. It's a small market so I guess there's room for one.

If done by an A319 that's 144 seats to fill..

Just a thought..


CAY is in French Guiana, GEO is in Guyana. I don't know about Guyana, but in French Guyana LATAM brand recognition is next to 0 atm. Going through BOG to get to MIA would be backtracking a whole lot when you already have a direct AF flight (albeit with 3 stops) or you can go via PBM or BEL. At one point there were talks about AD launching a BEL-CAY-FLL but they opted to launch BEL-FLL direct instead.
 
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Aesma
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Re: DY to serve Cayenne (French Guiana)

Fri May 18, 2018 3:09 pm

Punta Cana, the easternmost tip of the Dominican Republic, abuts the Caribbean Sea and the Atlantic Ocean. It's a region known for its 32km stretch of beaches and clear waters.

Cayenne is not known for clear waters...
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
A380MSN004
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Re: DY to serve Cayenne (French Guiana)

Fri May 18, 2018 3:59 pm

ro1960 wrote:
A380MSN004 wrote:
2016 traffic PAR - CAY 295 037 pax

There's already AF and TX on this route.

The Guy at DY Who is thinking about this route must be High on something. There's No demand for adding extra capacity on this route


"The Guy at DY Who is High on something" thinks he can steal pax from the other two because he'll offer a better product at a better price. The capacity is not the issue.


Stealing passengers is a thing, making profit by Stealing passengers to competitors with a Low yield is another story.
Especially against TX
 
guyanam
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Re: DY to serve Cayenne (French Guiana)

Fri May 18, 2018 6:03 pm

Thibault973 wrote:
CAY is in French Guiana, GEO is in Guyana. I don't know about Guyana, but in French Guyana LATAM brand recognition is next to 0 atm. Going through BOG to get to MIA would be backtracking a whole lot when you already have a direct AF flight (albeit with 3 stops) or you can go via PBM or BEL. At one point there were talks about AD launching a BEL-CAY-FLL but they opted to launch BEL-FLL direct instead.



LATAM doesn't have brand recognition in GEO but then COPA didn't either before it began. But yes none of the Guyanas are really integrated into the rest of South America so LATAM isn't going to consider any of them any time soon. COPA will be all that there will be. And NOT to CAY, which is a South American outpost of Europe. Maybe PBM one day.
 
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ro1960
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Re: DY to serve Cayenne (French Guiana)

Fri May 18, 2018 6:32 pm

A380MSN004 wrote:
ro1960 wrote:
A380MSN004 wrote:
2016 traffic PAR - CAY 295 037 pax

There's already AF and TX on this route.

The Guy at DY Who is thinking about this route must be High on something. There's No demand for adding extra capacity on this route


"The Guy at DY Who is High on something" thinks he can steal pax from the other two because he'll offer a better product at a better price. The capacity is not the issue.


Stealing passengers is a thing, making profit by Stealing passengers to competitors with a Low yield is another story.
Especially against TX


Like any commercial airline, if they don't make a profit or enough profit, they'll adjust or close.
 
A380MSN004
Posts: 319
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Re: DY to serve Cayenne (French Guiana)

Fri May 18, 2018 10:15 pm

ro1960 wrote:
A380MSN004 wrote:
ro1960 wrote:

"The Guy at DY Who is High on something" thinks he can steal pax from the other two because he'll offer a better product at a better price. The capacity is not the issue.


Stealing passengers is a thing, making profit by Stealing passengers to competitors with a Low yield is another story.
Especially against TX


Like any commercial airline, if they don't make a profit or enough profit, they'll adjust or close.


Btw, does DY have cabin or fly crew based in Paris already?

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