flyyul
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Air Canada Will Not Operate YVR-MIA

Thu Mar 07, 2002 3:19 am

Air Canada wont be flying YVR-mIA this summer... the flights have been put on "R" status. In other words, the flight is cut.. not sure if it will be back for winter 03'

This again, baffles me! The flight was always full, and MIA is such a lucrative destination. But Uncle Milty will have you believe that his A319's are better on YYZ-DFW or YYZ-IAH than YVR-MIA... go figure..

Sorry MAH4546  Sad

Mark
 
donder10
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RE: Air Canada Will Not Operate YVR-MIA

Thu Mar 07, 2002 3:28 am

I thought that YVR-MIA was quite profitable for them last summer!??!
 
flyyul
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RE: Air Canada Will Not Operate YVR-MIA

Thu Mar 07, 2002 3:38 am

Donder10,

I never heard otherwise.... if you cant make YVR-MIA route work, I wonder what can then work???

MIA is such a high-demand destination from centres all over the world.....

To YYZ717, what do you make of this? Im interested as to what you will say  Smile

Rgds,
Mark
 
donder10
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RE: Air Canada Will Not Operate YVR-MIA

Thu Mar 07, 2002 3:39 am

Seems that AC is more content on market share than making a profit most of the time!
 
sunbird
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RE: Air Canada Will Not Operate YVR-MIA

Thu Mar 07, 2002 3:39 am

Welcome to The New Air Canada
personaly I think there new title should be

"We'll screw you every time!"

Just this morning I was listening to CBC Radio 1 and A lady sent in an e mail saying that she had called and resivered a seat for her 12 yo daughter to fly, AC even asked if she would be flying alone and the lady had said yes. About 4 hours before the flight as the day before the lady called to make shure everything was still ok (like most people do) everything was fine. Her daughter got to the airport got a boarding pass @ the ticket counter after her mother left the little girl went to the boarding area waited an extra 2 hours due to a delay and was then booted. AC left this young girl in an airport by herself, ofering no help at all.
What the hell does that say about OUR national airline? Thank god for Westjet or canada would be in a bigger mess than it is now..........just my 2 cents worth
 
redraider
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RE: Air Canada Will Not Operate YVR-MIA

Thu Mar 07, 2002 3:41 am

It's all the French judge's fault.
My wife can't wrestle, but you should see her box.
 
Guest

RE: Air Canada Will Not Operate YVR-MIA

Thu Mar 07, 2002 4:05 am

Seems to this casual observer (who happens to be in Houston) that you deploy your assets (A319s) where you have the opportunity sell the highest priced tickets. Both DFW and IAH have the business market to justify their service (or types of a/c used on the service) over a thin routing to a predominantly leisure destination.

I know, I know Mah4546, Miami has x population, x Fortune 500 companies, etc, etc...

 
donder10
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RE: Air Canada Will Not Operate YVR-MIA

Thu Mar 07, 2002 4:08 am

Maybe AC should become Air Toronto?
 
spyderz
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RE: Air Canada Will Not Operate YVR-MIA

Thu Mar 07, 2002 5:13 am

Being a Westerner, it's sad to see this happen, but since this was a leisure route for cruise passengers, planes would have to be quite full in order for a profit to be made. This probably was quite difficult with Air Canada screwing around with the schedule and flying on Fri and Sat only, for everybody likes a bit of flexibily. Also, this could do with AA re-starting Miami-Seattle service which was no-existent when the Vancouver route started. Like many AC decisions it sounds crazy, trying to shed some light on the reason (maybe?).
 
slawko
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RE: Air Canada Will Not Operate YVR-MIA

Thu Mar 07, 2002 5:19 am

GIVE IT UP ALREADY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Air Canada is loosing a Billion dollars a year, and you will sit there and tell me that Milton, and his people will drop a western route because it does not originate in Toronto even if it makes more money then a possible YYZ route??? You must be on crack!, Stop bitching about how your city is underserved, THERE IS NO SUCH THING!!!!!!!!! They are served according to the market predictions, and demographics that companies spend millions of dollars on each year. I still dont understand how you people think that airlines avoid your city because you are not YYZ, that is simply insane! The airlines serve the cities that they can make money in, and thats IT!!!!! If they do not see a summer time market for a route then they will drop it, and use the airplane and crews on a route that will make money.....
"Clive Beddoe says he favours competition, but his actions do not support that idea." Robert Milton - CEO Air Canada
 
MAH4546
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RE: Air Canada Will Not Operate YVR-MIA

Thu Mar 07, 2002 5:22 am

Oh well. I hope it comes back in the future. We'll see what happens. This baffles me though, especially because first class was always going out full from the loads I saw. Miami-Vancouver is a big leisure market, but also connected two Star Alliance hubs.
a.
 
donder10
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RE: Air Canada Will Not Operate YVR-MIA

Thu Mar 07, 2002 5:24 am

! The airlines serve the cities that they can make money in, and thats IT!!!!!
And AC cant make money!
 
MAH4546
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RE: Air Canada Will Not Operate YVR-MIA

Thu Mar 07, 2002 5:40 am

FLYYUL, the flight is no longer bookable at aircanada.com for the summer, but is bookable for winter 2002 (the date I put in was 30Nov02). I don't know how far they update thier schedule or how AC updates thier schedules, but if they were ending the flight completely, wouldn't they have wiped it out of the schedule completely (that's how American Airlines does it)? So can this be considered, for now, a suspension?

Spyderz, where did you read AA is bring back MIA-SEA? There were some articles in the Herald that said the flights may be back this fall. Tomorrow or Friday AA will probably realese the summer changes at Miami (most of which I've already seen; 19 new dailies; three new destinations), and, so far, SEA is not in the cards for the summer.
a.
 
flyyul
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RE: Air Canada Will Not Operate YVR-MIA

Thu Mar 07, 2002 5:54 am

Hmmmm ok....

Look at this stat, YYZ-DFW load factor for november 01' was 43%, and 44% in 00' ...... you need to sell 80% high-yield of those 44% load factor achieved....

There are MANY markets that AC can exploit that are underserved, and we should stop being all naive, and thinking that AC knows more than us, it must know whats its doing. Tell me this much, how does a MONOPOLY carrier lose 1.25 billipon a year, then have the balls to tell investors that they are in better shape than American carriers. American Carriers are all beating each other up for market share, while AC's has got the whole country in a holding pattern.......

I, for one second, dont give them an inch of credibility. You know what, YVR-MIA is leisure, but its all business. Miami is still a huge business centre, with TOP-DOllar tourists.... Dont tell me Houston or Dallas will attract higher-yield, I dont believe it for a second... Miami is an international destination...

Mark
 
MAH4546
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RE: Air Canada Will Not Operate YVR-MIA

Thu Mar 07, 2002 5:58 am

FLYYUL is right. Also, from what I heard, a large amount of MIA-YVR traffic was Miami-originating going on towards Asian destinations, which is why the flight downgraded to weekend service for the winter. And trade between Miami and Canada is huge, probably just as big, if not bigger, than trade between all of Texas and Canada. Air Canada sends 767s on the Miami-Toronto route and has no problem filling up all classes. And it's not just MIA-YVR. AC does this all the time.
a.
 
slawko
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RE: Air Canada Will Not Operate YVR-MIA

Thu Mar 07, 2002 7:08 am

"Tell me this much, how does a MONOPOLY carrier lose 1.25 billipon a year, "
I'll tell you why they are a monopoly and are still loosing money like you say, its because they are strong armed by the government, and blowhards who cry and bitch about how their town with a population of 50 000 people doesnt have enough heavy jet service. If this were the US, and AC was a US airline they would be serving half the cities that they do now on domestic routes. If you know so much more then air canada execs then why dont you have their job? Go take over from uncle mitly and see how long you lst flying routes out of places that have no need for thos routes, just because you want to see a 747-400 in Montreal, or Winnipeg.

"I, for one second, dont give them an inch of credibility. You know what, YVR-MIA is leisure, but its all business. Miami is still a huge business centre, with TOP-DOllar tourists.... Dont tell me Houston or Dallas will attract higher-yield, I dont believe it for a second... Miami is an international destination... "

Oh yeah that right, the home base of American Airlines is not a major international destination....and neither Houston or Dallas have anthing worth doing business with, its not like they have oil companies down there or anhything...I'm sure a little old couple going on a cruise will make more money for AC, then a few oil execs.

The reason Air Canada is in the STAR Alliance is because they want to maximize the use and earning potential of all their planes and all their routes, If that means that you have to make a stop in ORD on your way to MIA from YVR then thats your problem, AC is still getting a share of the money you paid for the ticket, and they didnt need to use their own plane on the route.....
"Clive Beddoe says he favours competition, but his actions do not support that idea." Robert Milton - CEO Air Canada
 
BA
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RE: Air Canada Will Not Operate YVR-MIA

Thu Mar 07, 2002 7:19 am

Houston is most DEFINATELY a bigger business destination than Miami. As for Dallas, it's questionable. I'd say its a tie.

Houston is one of the top business destinations of the world. Not only does it have the most Fortune 500 companies in the US (21 I think), but it is of course the heart of Oil business in the US which is the #1 import in the US.

Miami is a big business destination, but not nearly as big as Houston. I don't think any city in the US can compare with Houston in terms of business..........

Anyways, it's a shame that Air Canada is dropping YVR-MIA. I'm not surprised though, Air Canada always does some strange decisions by dropping routes....

However, it's not a huge loss. Passengers can connect in Dallas (DFW) if they want to go to Vancouver (YVR).

Regards
"Generosity is giving more than you can, and pride is taking less than you need." - Khalil Gibran
 
MAH4546
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RE: Air Canada Will Not Operate YVR-MIA

Thu Mar 07, 2002 7:39 am

There is no doubting Houston is a bigger business destination than Miami, but not from Canada. As for Miami, few people know that the biggest industry in Miami is banking and finance, not tourism.
a.
 
BA
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RE: Air Canada Will Not Operate YVR-MIA

Thu Mar 07, 2002 7:42 am

Mah4546,

Houston is a larger international destination from nearly every part of the world except for South America and the Caribbean which of course Miami is the leader of.

Houston is a city smaller than Dallas, yet they have so much more international service. Emirates has mentioned that they plan to serve IAH in the near future.

Houston is a big destination from just about anywhere.

I am sure MIA-YVR did great, but when you are saying MIA-YVR is more important than IAH, well that is just wrong.

Regards
"Generosity is giving more than you can, and pride is taking less than you need." - Khalil Gibran
 
flyyul
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RE: Air Canada Will Not Operate YVR-MIA

Thu Mar 07, 2002 8:55 am

Ha ok!....

I mentionned the fact that AC ran a 45% load factor to DFW and a 43% to IAH in nov 00'.... so you tell me exactly how important to destinationsare to AC's nucleus... YYZ-IAH is a business route, with virtually no possible feed beyond IAH with AC..

Meanwhile, you've got two star alliance hubs YVR and MIA, important connections to HUGE latin american destinations can be made with AC/UA only.... we are not talking about YVR-IAH with AC, im speaking about moving the A319 from an ailing destination like IAH or DFW, or moving it out of Air Toronto, I mean AIr Canada..

Slawko, your reason why AC is losing 1.25 billion is pure BS. These little towns are now WestJet towns in the west, and soon to be in the East. They can pull out of tere if they want, they've done it in Quebec. Im sure that 1 B1900 going from Montreal to Sept-Iles is the reason why AC is losing money (BTW, that flight is always full, so at least they should break-even with an efficient aircraft like that)...

If MIA was a sucgh a low-yield place, why would it now be the No.1 International traffic city in the USA and North America. Major European airlines, Latin American, Carribean, African and North American airlines all conglomerate into this huge area, which is a WORLD-CLASS city.... im not saying IAH or DFW are not HUGe buesiness centres, they are, but they arent WORLD-CLASS cities, and some of the most succesful people on this earth, reside in the South Florida area....

If your Air Canada, and you want to expand your 3 main hubs; YYZ, YVR and YUL, and you cant make what seems to be BASIC routes like YVR-MIA or YUL-DEN, then whats the point? But I believe that they were working, they achieved high-load factors (cant confirm the yields), but its inconceivable to me these flights are worth to be suspended...... it makes me angry that despite market trends (there are many underserved LARGE O&D combinations from YVR, YYC and YUL), AC has the balls to chop these routes, ever so quietly....... with the public not noticing..

YVR-MIA is a lucrative route: two star alliance hubs, two business centres, two huge tourist centres, cruise hubs, and world-class cities... I, for one, dont believe that this route wasnt profitable for AC.... its too hard to imagine it being...

Mark



 
MAH4546
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RE: Air Canada Will Not Operate YVR-MIA

Thu Mar 07, 2002 9:05 am

BA, myth #1: Miami's international community is exclusively from Latin American and the Caribbean. That is a huge misconception. Miami's links with Europe (and Miami has one of America's largest European national populations, much larger than Houston's; #4 in the US I believe) are huge, much bigger than Houston's links with Europe. Miami also has very strong links to Africa (notably South Africa; and Air Namibia's proposed Houston route would go via MIA), the Middle East (namely Saudi Arabia and Israel, and MIA has been mentioned as an EK destination as well), and Asia (namely Japan, Taiwan, and Thailand). I'm not going to go into a whole spiel, but Miami's international links go far beyond Latin America. International banking dominates the City of Miami's economy.
a.
 
flyyul
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RE: Air Canada Will Not Operate YVR-MIA

Thu Mar 07, 2002 9:11 am

Coming from international communities we experience in Montreal and Toronto, I would definitely agree that of the many major US urban areas, New York, LA, Miami and Boston are the most multicultured!

mark
 
MAH4546
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RE: Air Canada Will Not Operate YVR-MIA

Thu Mar 07, 2002 9:22 am

And BA, what do you mean by so much more international service at IAH than DFW?


Long-Haul international services:

IAH:
CO to LGW 12x a week (soon 14x)
BA to LGW 7x a week
BA to LHR via IAD 7x a week (end of Apr)
LH to FRA 5x a week (soon 7x)
CO to FRA 7x a week
CO to CDG 7x a week
AF to CDG 7x a week
KL to AMS 7x a week
CO to AMS 7x a week (soon)
CO to NRT 7x a week (that flight actually orginates at MIA)
+GRU, LIM, GIG, UIO
+World Airways 1x a week to Angola

DFW:
AA to LGW 14x a week
AA to CDG 7x a week
AA to FRA 7x a week
AA to zRH 7x a week
BA to LGW 7x a week
LH to FRA 5x a week (soon 7x)
KE to ICN 3x a week
AA to NRT 11x a week
+GRU, SCL, LIM
(before 9.11 Sabena to BRU, Air France to CDG, JAL to NRT, AA to KIX)

IAH does have more long-haul flights, but it's not a big difference. IAH wins thanks to the effects of 9.11. Both have pretty weak compeitition on trans-Atlantic/Pacific flights. DFW with only 2 European carriers and one Asian carrier (it was 4/2 before 9.11) and IAH with only 4 European and no Asian carriers.
a.
 
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yyz717
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RE: Air Canada Will Not Operate YVR-MIA

Thu Mar 07, 2002 9:46 am

Slawko & JonPaulGeoRingo are correct.

There are many factors that go into a route profitability. ONLY the AC insiders know route profitability though, not us. High load factors do not imply profitability. Traffic feed from MIA to Asia thru YVR (even business traffic) is not necessarily high yielding on the MIA-YVR leg since the fare is usually based on the entire trip. YYZ-DFW/IAH routings are usually point-to-point with no feed so I can see them as very high yielding and profitable with only 45% loads. MIA is a mixed business/leisure destination in general....but from YVR, it may have been more leisure (and hence less business)...who knows? Not us.

An A319 committed to YVR-MIA would be a 12-13 hour vv operation...in other words, an ENTIRE day's A319 flying...perhaps that A319 was better deployed on 4 daily YVR-YYC vv or 3 daily YYZ-BOS flights.

AC would have fairly sophisticated revenue mgmt and route profitability modeling...perhaps the YVR-MIA just didn't make money on a fully-allocated basis. Perhaps there were crewing or scheduling issues. We'll never know.





I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
MAH4546
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RE: Air Canada Will Not Operate YVR-MIA

Thu Mar 07, 2002 9:55 am

We'll never know why MIA-YVR was suspended, though it is my understanding that A LOT of the Miami-originating passengers went on to Asia from an article that apperaed in Miami New Today. None the less, it is bookable at aircanada.com for the fall. I don't know if this is an error or not, however.
a.
 
crj-900
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RE: Air Canada Will Not Operate YVR-MIA

Thu Mar 07, 2002 10:45 am

I never thought I would see the day. I could not agree more with what Slawko and yyz717 have said.
All Air Canada’s financial information is not available over the Internet, nor is it available when you watch departing aircraft loads the odd time. So lets not sit hear and pretend that you can piece together what is profitable and what is not. If AC is dropping a route because it is not making money, it doesn’t mean that they hate westerners,or small towns; it simply means that it is not making money.
Crj-900
 
lymanm
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Flyyul

Thu Mar 07, 2002 11:08 am

"I, for one, dont believe that this route wasnt profitable for AC.... its too hard to imagine it being... "

Why must you insist that AC has a dark and sinister plot to aggravate all Canucks outside of Toronto? Your logic makes NO sense, whatsoever. Plain and simply, hub and spoke costs LESS and right now, AC is in cost reducing mode, as is any business in the current economic climate. I find it actually amusing that you think you are smarter than AC's front office accountants who make these decisions.

Yet again, you're using those stats from the DFW website, which probably isn't all that reliable....
buhh bye
 
flyyul
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RE: Flyyul

Thu Mar 07, 2002 11:39 am

So if it isnt reliable, then tis off by +- 5% ...... that gives either 40% or 50% load factor.. who are you kidding?

Lymanm, if AC is in cost cutting mode, what's all this trans-atlantic expansion to lower yield markets....

But in principle, if Air Canada cannot find success on a Vancouver-Miami flight, dont you think that would be most dissapointing to YVR hub status, and AC, as this is a lucrative international destination that is served by most major centres in the world, and YVR is becoming a major centre...

FYI, hubbing is not always more profitable than point-to-point flights, but its does save costs. But hey, isnt YVR no.2 for AC????

(If this was Air Canada cutting YVR-IAD, or YVR-Anchorage, I wouldnt be ranting, but because ive sorta live 1/3 of the year in Miami, its hard to watch this route go down. Its such an international jewel, a realbooming centre... its hard to even consider that an A319 flight cant be succesful, I just dont believe it,and most people that have seen this market, would tend to agree as well)..

Mark
 
MAH4546
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RE: Air Canada Will Not Operate YVR-MIA

Thu Mar 07, 2002 11:52 am

Well, there might be a silver lining, because just very, very recently I was able to speak to a friend that works for AA as an MIA-based FA and today they were told of new possible routes for the fall, and YVR was mentioned (along with MSP, PIT, SEA, and MCI and the already given the go-ahead VLN). We'll see what happens, but I won't truly believe it until I see it. AA is adding 130 daily jet (not regional jet) flights at MIA between now and 2006. Hopefully YVR will fit into the equation. Hopefully.
a.
 
slawko
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RE: Air Canada Will Not Operate YVR-MIA

Thu Mar 07, 2002 12:12 pm

"Lymanm, if AC is in cost cutting mode, what's all this trans-atlantic expansion to lower yield markets.... "

Because they have seen a need, or demand for more transatlantic services seeing as how most of those cities were served by C3 in the summer....DONT WORRY THEY WILL BE GONE IN THE WINTER, and thne you can cry about how those full flights have all been cut, even though they "were full"

"its hard to even consider that an A319 flight cant be succesful, I just dont believe it,and most people that have seen this market, would tend to agree as well).. "

Its not that they probably cant make money on it, and if you had been reading anything any of us were really saying you would see that, Its just that
"Clive Beddoe says he favours competition, but his actions do not support that idea." Robert Milton - CEO Air Canada
 
MAH4546
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RE: Air Canada Will Not Operate YVR-MIA

Thu Mar 07, 2002 12:20 pm

Nobody knows if MIA-YVR made money or not. I'm not saying it did, I am not saying it didn't, but profitable flights are dropped. Maybe the A319 was better used elsewhere, maybe they could make more money sending people through Toronto or Montreal. Who knows, but the fact that MIA-YVR is being suspended for at least the summer, and possibly longer, does not mean it did not make money. It's a possibility, but not a given. Only the execs at AC know the real answer, but what we do know is that loads were excellent in back and in front (of course, that says nothing about yield).
a.
 
MAH4546
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US Resuming PIT-LGW/CDG This Month

Thu Mar 07, 2002 12:22 pm

USAirways is resuming non-stop service between Pittsburgh and Paris (767) and Pittsburgh and London Gatwick at the end of this month. Good news for PIT. Still no word on the return of CLT-CDG, but CLT-FRA is coming back in May, I believe.
a.
 
MAH4546
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RE: Air Canada Will Not Operate YVR-MIA

Thu Mar 07, 2002 12:23 pm

Sorry, ignore the above post.
a.
 
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yyz717
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RE: Air Canada Will Not Operate YVR-MIA

Thu Mar 07, 2002 2:10 pm

CRJ-900: "I never thought I would see the day. I could not agree more with what Slawko and yyz717 have said."

Thanks! I think.


I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.

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