Eurowingsa320
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Why no direct flights between Liverpool and London?

Thu Jun 14, 2018 4:44 pm

I would imagine there being demand for this route but there does not seem to be a single operator. The closes I could get was to MAN. I would of thought at least Ryanair, Wizz, Flybe or easyjet would operate this route to LGW, LTN or STN.
 
axiom
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Re: Why no direct flights between Liverpool and London?

Thu Jun 14, 2018 4:50 pm

There are over 60 trains a day from Liverpool Lime Street to London, many direct and taking around 2 hours. There's no market to fly this, beyond that for connecting traffic. Alas, BA finds more value in limiting regional connections to a handful of cities. MAN and LBA are of comparable distance to London, and with even better train connectivity, and maintain LHR flights only because they have significantly stronger business markets.
 
jde91
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Re: Why no direct flights between Liverpool and London?

Thu Jun 14, 2018 4:57 pm

I guess there is no demand. BA have like 7? Flights a day between MAN and LHR. You can get direct trains from Liverpool city center to Manchester airport in under an hour. Plus trains from Liverpool to London take just 2 hours.

Apparently we are getting a BA link once third runway opens, but with the recent cut backs at LBA and NCL I don’t see it happening.
 
hoons90
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Re: Why no direct flights between Liverpool and London?

Thu Jun 14, 2018 4:58 pm

VLM used to fly LCY-LPL in the late 2000s.
The biggest mistake made by most human beings: Listening to only half, understanding just a quarter and telling double.
 
Arion640
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Re: Why no direct flights between Liverpool and London?

Thu Jun 14, 2018 5:16 pm

jde91 wrote:
I guess there is no demand. BA have like 7? Flights a day between MAN and LHR. You can get direct trains from Liverpool city center to Manchester airport in under an hour. Plus trains from Liverpool to London take just 2 hours.

Apparently we are getting a BA link once third runway opens, but with the recent cut backs at LBA and NCL I don’t see it happening.


You know London-New York is a big market when BA send the same ammount of flights there each day as they do Manchester...
319 320 321 333 346 359 388 733 738 744 752 753 763 772 77E 773 77W 788 789 E145 E175 E195 RJ85 F70 DH8C DH8D AT75.

No CONC sadly.
 
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Jayafe
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Re: Why no direct flights between Liverpool and London?

Thu Jun 14, 2018 5:29 pm

Eurowingsa320 wrote:
I would imagine there being demand for this route...


Based on?
 
axiom
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Re: Why no direct flights between Liverpool and London?

Thu Jun 14, 2018 5:49 pm

Of course there is demand for travel between Liverpool and London. That's obvious. The question is about air travel demand, and I'd think the answer is obvious by now, too.
 
jde91
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Re: Why no direct flights between Liverpool and London?

Thu Jun 14, 2018 6:06 pm

Arion640 wrote:
jde91 wrote:
I guess there is no demand. BA have like 7? Flights a day between MAN and LHR. You can get direct trains from Liverpool city center to Manchester airport in under an hour. Plus trains from Liverpool to London take just 2 hours.

Apparently we are getting a BA link once third runway opens, but with the recent cut backs at LBA and NCL I don’t see it happening.


You know London-New York is a big market when BA send the same ammount of flights there each day as they do Manchester...


Ermm ok... what’s your point?
Last edited by jde91 on Thu Jun 14, 2018 6:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
David_itl
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Re: Why no direct flights between Liverpool and London?

Thu Jun 14, 2018 6:16 pm

MAN-LHR exists on the basis of transfer traffic (around 75% to 80%). Lots of BA frequent flyers in the area. U2 did do LTN-LPL years ago but its not cost effective to run domestics to London unless you can charge a premium or have a hub. It needs PSOs to be in place
 
IslandDweller
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Re: Why no direct flights between Liverpool and London?

Thu Jun 14, 2018 6:26 pm

VLM did operate from LCY to Liverpool (and Manchester) many years ago. But that was when the endless engineering works were underway on the West Coast Rail line, meaning rail journeys were longer - and frequently impossible at weekends due to engineering closures.
Once the rail works were complete and the rail service settled down, the market for VLM vanished and they pulled out.
 
Bobloblaw
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Re: Why no direct flights between Liverpool and London?

Thu Jun 14, 2018 6:40 pm

there is demand for connections...what there is not are slots, gates and runways for low revenue flights
 
TC957
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Re: Why no direct flights between Liverpool and London?

Thu Jun 14, 2018 6:45 pm

I'm sure most people that need to travel to/from Liverpool from the South -East would welcome an easyJet service than be stuck for over two hours on an expensive, unreliable and often overcrowded train. easyJet should give it a go from LGW.
 
leghorn
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Re: Why no direct flights between Liverpool and London?

Thu Jun 14, 2018 6:56 pm

air travel is at an immediate cost disadvantage due to airport departure tax
 
directorguy
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Re: Why no direct flights between Liverpool and London?

Thu Jun 14, 2018 7:04 pm

I seem to remember on the ITV series Airline (which began airing around 1999/2000) easyjet had flights between LTN and LPL? I'm assuming there was some demand not necessarily from (central) Londoners but from people living in northern London and surrounding towns like Milton Keynes or Stevenage. Also LPL isn't convenient just for Liverpool, but benefits from proximity to Manchester and North Wales.
 
mstx44
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Re: Why no direct flights between Liverpool and London?

Thu Jun 14, 2018 7:10 pm

Easyjet did operate a service from Luton to Liverpool which i travelled on quite often and there was always a good load on the flights, it was faster and way cheaper than a train.
 
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FabDiva
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Re: Why no direct flights between Liverpool and London?

Thu Jun 14, 2018 7:37 pm

directorguy wrote:
I seem to remember on the ITV series Airline (which began airing around 1999/2000) easyjet had flights between LTN and LPL? I'm assuming there was some demand not necessarily from (central) Londoners but from people living in northern London and surrounding towns like Milton Keynes or Stevenage. Also LPL isn't convenient just for Liverpool, but benefits from proximity to Manchester and North Wales.


That would have been before the West Coast Upgrade finished which knocked a considerable amount off the rail journey time.
 
ihmcallister
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Re: Why no direct flights between Liverpool and London?

Thu Jun 14, 2018 7:43 pm

There are no flights from LPL - LHR because British Midland gave up on the city and moved the route to Manchester, using the Liverpool flight numbers, pure and simple. It was a complete betrayal of a large and loyal following in the Merseyside catchment area. Michael Bishop was obsessed with competing with BA, and finally broke his airline doing it. You can be sure that nobody travelling from Liverpool to Manchester to connect to Heathrow ever chose BD.
BD had taken over the route from BA in the late 1970s. Bishop's grand idea was to succeed as a third player at Heathrow, and he cancelled LHR flights to Leeds, Teesside, Birmingham, and East Midlands so BD could introduce LHR flights to Paris, Frankfurt, and several other European cities in direct competition with BA and the reciprocal foreign airlines.
The inevitable takeover of BD by BA was a while coming, but when it did BA didn't use any of the released slot capacity to reinstate domestic routes beyond the shuttles (Glasgow, Edinburgh, Belfast, Manchester) and Newcastle.
Who connects through Heathrow these days anyway? You can fly anywhere in the world from Liverpool via Amsterdam, Dublin, Paris etc.
Last edited by ihmcallister on Thu Jun 14, 2018 7:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
leghorn
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Re: Why no direct flights between Liverpool and London?

Thu Jun 14, 2018 7:50 pm

Ahem. £26 sterling tax on a return ticket.
 
Andy33
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Re: Why no direct flights between Liverpool and London?

Thu Jun 14, 2018 7:55 pm

ihmcallister wrote:
There are no flights from LPL - LHR because British Midland gave up on the city and moved the route to Manchester, using the Liverpool flight numbers, pure and simple. It was a complete betrayal of a large and loyal following in the Merseyside catchment area. Michael Bishop was obsessed with competing with BA, and finally broke his airline doing it. You can be sure that nobody travelling from Liverpool to Manchester to connect to Heathrow ever chose BD.
BD had taken over the route from BA in the late 1970s. Bishop's grand idea was to succeed as a third player at Heathrow, and he cancelled LHR flights to Leeds, Teesside, Birmingham, and East Midlands so BD could introduce LHR flights to Paris, Frankfurt, and several other European cities in direct competition with BA and the reciprocal foreign airlines.
The inevitable takeover of BD by BA was a while coming, but when it did BA didn't use any of the released slot capacity to reinstate any domestic routes beyond the shuttles (Glasgow, Edinburgh, Belfast, Manchester) and Newcastle.

Leeds was reinstated by BA following the BD takeover, and is still operating.
To your list of continuing domestics you need to add Aberdeen (which BA and BD competed on), while BD had given up on Glasgow before the takeover and this was a purely BA route by then.
Belfast was latterly a BD route only (BA codeshared on EI) but has continued operating after the BA takeover up to today, and the EI codeshares continue too.
Finally Inverness has been added as a BA domestic destination relatively recently.
 
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adg737800
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Re: Why no direct flights between Liverpool and London?

Thu Jun 14, 2018 8:45 pm

ihmcallister wrote:
There are no flights from LPL - LHR because British Midland gave up on the city and moved the route to Manchester, using the Liverpool flight numbers, pure and simple. It was a complete betrayal of a large and loyal following in the Merseyside catchment area. Michael Bishop was obsessed with competing with BA, and finally broke his airline doing it. You can be sure that nobody travelling from Liverpool to Manchester to connect to Heathrow ever chose BD.


Nope. BD ended the LPL-LHR route in 1992 as a result of the recession at the time (which hit an already struggling Merseyside economy badly) with the slots shuffled to open up a LHR-BRU service. The BD MAN-LHR route came later, opening up in 1997. There was no betrayal at all!

BD also operated LPL-LHR from 1978 to 1986 with first DC9s, Viscounts and then F27s before passing it on to sister airline Manx Airlines who used a SAAB 340. BD took over again in 1988 with DC9-15s but it continued to struggle and load factors were routinely under 50% at the end.

U2 operated LPL-LTN from 1999 until 2000-ish. I remember them saying at the time the introduction of APD killed it. In 1999 the trains were utterly woeful from Lime Street to Euston.
 
gunnerman
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Re: Why no direct flights between Liverpool and London?

Thu Jun 14, 2018 8:50 pm

mstx44 wrote:
Easyjet did operate a service from Luton to Liverpool which i travelled on quite often and there was always a good load on the flights, it was faster and way cheaper than a train.

The LTN-LPL route started in the late 1990s but was terminated round about March 2001. LPL wasn't happy about it but was no doubt mollified as easyJet has made LPL into a hub.
 
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Crosswind
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Re: Why no direct flights between Liverpool and London?

Thu Jun 14, 2018 8:51 pm

ihmcallister wrote:
There are no flights from LPL - LHR because British Midland gave up on the city and moved the route to Manchester, using the Liverpool flight numbers, pure and simple. It was a complete betrayal of a large and loyal following in the Merseyside catchment area. Michael Bishop was obsessed with competing with BA, and finally broke his airline doing it. You can be sure that nobody travelling from Liverpool to Manchester to connect to Heathrow ever chose BD.
BD had taken over the route from BA in the late 1970s. Bishop's grand idea was to succeed as a third player at Heathrow, and he cancelled LHR flights to Leeds, Teesside, Birmingham, and East Midlands so BD could introduce LHR flights to Paris, Frankfurt, and several other European cities in direct competition with BA and the reciprocal foreign airlines.
The inevitable takeover of BD by BA was a while coming, but when it did BA didn't use any of the released slot capacity to reinstate domestic routes beyond the shuttles (Glasgow, Edinburgh, Belfast, Manchester) and Newcastle.
Who connects through Heathrow these days anyway? You can fly anywhere in the world from Liverpool via Amsterdam, Dublin, Paris etc.


If you’ll forgive me for saying, that’s a biased view. British Midland ended their LHR-LPL flights in 1992. They did not start LHR-MAN until 1998. Given the length and breadth of BM’s UK network at the time - far more regional destinations than BA - their complete absence at Manchester was always conspicuous. But I think with a 6 year gap between the ending of LPL and the start of MAN I wouldn’t read anything into the re-use of flight numbers. You make out they ended LPL and started flying to MAN the next day.

The BHX and EMA flights finished in the 1980s and I recall. Both a very short hop and they were mostly operated by ATP/SH360. The MME and LBA flights almost lasted to the end. I’ll grant that British Midland was a basket case by the time it was bought out, first by Lufthansa and later by BA. But I don’t think they had an anti Liverpool (or any other region) bias, they were just badly run in the landscape of a changing competitive environment and didn’t know what to do. The fact they bowed out of the LHR-GLA market says nothing about any other company apart from the indication of how badly British Midland had lost their way.

For all the stick BA gets about the UK regional destinations, they fly to far more destinations than they did 10 years ago from LHR. They retained their own network plus BHD which was inherited from bmi. In addition they restarted LBA (dropped by bmi) as well as INV, not operated from LHR since the Dan Air days. Sadly the U.K. APD hammers UK domestic air fares. It further hammers UK domestic connections as they pay the highest rated APD dependant on final destination. It’s sad that the U.K. government pursues this approach - it must have been a factor with Virgin Atlantic’s little red failure versus cheaper European connections.

Best Regards
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Slash787
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Re: Why no direct flights between Liverpool and London?

Thu Jun 14, 2018 9:17 pm

mstx44 wrote:
Easyjet did operate a service from Luton to Liverpool which i travelled on quite often and there was always a good load on the flights, it was faster and way cheaper than a train.


What was the flight time? 40 mins?
 
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Faro
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Re: Why no direct flights between Liverpool and London?

Thu Jun 14, 2018 9:34 pm

Perhaps a paucity of business class pax? Liverpool is not the bustling industrial hub it used to be...


Faro
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Samrnpage
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Re: Why no direct flights between Liverpool and London?

Thu Jun 14, 2018 9:46 pm

When analysing the opportunity cost of flying a route from London to Liverpool, you would have had to completely rule out about 100 other more obvious destinations in yield and profit to do so. The only airline that might consider it would be BA to connect pax at LHR but why would BA waste a slot at LHR for liverpool when they could fly other more popular destinations?
 
Wednesdayite
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Re: Why no direct flights between Liverpool and London?

Thu Jun 14, 2018 10:07 pm

leghorn wrote:
Ahem. £26 sterling tax on a return ticket.


A bargain compared with walk up rail fares.

Just googled tomorrow. Euston to Lime Street. Cheapest standard single in rush hour is £136.
A318/19/20/21/30/40. B717/27/37/47/57/67/77. CN235. CR2/7. ER145/190. FKR50. IL62. MD11/82/83/88. TU154.
AA AC AF AI AR AS AT AV AZ BA BW BY CO DA DL F9 FR JJ KL LH MA NW NZ OS RG SU TK U2 UA US VS WN
 
axiom
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Re: Why no direct flights between Liverpool and London?

Thu Jun 14, 2018 10:25 pm

Wednesdayite wrote:
leghorn wrote:
Ahem. £26 sterling tax on a return ticket.


A bargain compared with walk up rail fares.

Just googled tomorrow. Euston to Lime Street. Cheapest standard single in rush hour is £136.


The answer to this particular dilemma isn't to start air service, it's to nationalize the rail system ;-)
 
8herveg
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Re: Why no direct flights between Liverpool and London?

Thu Jun 14, 2018 10:32 pm

BA should operate LHR-LPL 2-3 times daily for connections and drop a few of the MAN flights to get the slots at LHR. MAN flights wouldn’t lose out as they cover LPL catchment area anyway
 
Samrnpage
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Re: Why no direct flights between Liverpool and London?

Thu Jun 14, 2018 11:04 pm

8herveg wrote:
BA should operate LHR-LPL 2-3 times daily for connections and drop a few of the MAN flights to get the slots at LHR. MAN flights wouldn’t lose out as they cover LPL catchment area anyway


If the MAN slots cover the LPL market, why would they when MAN has 4 or 5 x the catchment area + LPL?
 
DobboDobbo
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Re: Why no direct flights between Liverpool and London?

Thu Jun 14, 2018 11:07 pm

There is an extraordinary amount of ill-informed comments on this thread.

First, despite frequent moans to the contrary, the UK has a high quality and frequent rail system and good quality roads. The distances involved are relatively short and this means that most point to point journeys between major UK cities are dominated by road and rail. The exception is Scotland to southern England, and that might change with HS2.

Second, the UK regionals generally offer a range of one stop options to almost any point on earth through non-LHR hubs. In Liverpools case, MAN offers an ever increasing range of direct options.

Taken as a whole, there are very few UK regionals that can support a LHR flight in a commercial basis. LBA has struggled and the market at MAN has significantly declined due to increasing direct options. The likes of Liverpool, Doncaster, Exeter, Newquay, Blackpool who are anticipating a LHR service can forget it unless is is subsidised via a PSO (Public Service Obligation). Even then, they can expect existing hub services (e.g. To AMS) to be cut back if the LHR service is implemented by subsidy. At best, LHR to the regions would be robbing Peter to pay Paul. It achieves nothing.
 
MikeMidd2001
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Re: Why no direct flights between Liverpool and London?

Thu Jun 14, 2018 11:54 pm

Amused by the posters who seem to think a massive and hidden group of LPL international flyers will suddenly emerge with an LHR/LON link and drive high yields.

Easyjet and Ryanair cover almost all major European holiday and business destinations (including Paris, Amsterdam, Berlin, Milan, etc.). While there may be other travellers who want to connect to destinations beyond that, the question for BA is whether those travellers will go to Manchester and if they'll still take BA, and if the loss of travellers in absence of LPL is greater than the cost of moving a slot to LPL. Clearly the economics are guiding the decision, despite what people say BA "should" do.
 
davidjohnson6
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Re: Why no direct flights between Liverpool and London?

Fri Jun 15, 2018 12:01 am

If Easyjet or Ryanair get a *lot* more serious about connecting short haul flights, would they perhaps consider a route to Gatwick or Stansted respectively ? On a point-to-point basis these routes are hopeless but I wonder if they were heavily based on being feeder traffic they might be worthwhile - geography works in their favour.
 
Andy33
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Re: Why no direct flights between Liverpool and London?

Fri Jun 15, 2018 6:22 am

A quick check suggests that 69 different cities/resorts are served non stop from Liverpool Airport in high summer this year (and Belfast and Warsaw even manage flights to both their airports). That is way, way more than was ever the case last time Liverpool had London flights. If Ryanair or Easyjet decided to operate connecting flights from Liverpool to STN or LGW for onward services on their own networks, which places that don't have service from LPL now would gain it? And what would the demand be? Don't forget that you're not really going to be able to catch flights that leave STN or LGW in the first wave from 05:30 onwards without getting to Liverpool Airport at around 02:30 at best!
And given that LGW slots are traded and in short supply, which current LGW flights get the chop to provide the slots for Liverpool?
 
WPvsMW
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Re: Why no direct flights between Liverpool and London?

Fri Jun 15, 2018 6:33 am

jde91 wrote:
Arion640 wrote:

You know London-New York is a big market when BA send the same [amount] of flights there each day as they do Manchester...


Ermm ok... what’s your point?


I think the post was intended as ... humour, with 2 u's. (Ergo, suus faceta Britannia.)
 
BAeRJ100
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Re: Why no direct flights between Liverpool and London?

Fri Jun 15, 2018 6:56 am

Wednesdayite wrote:
leghorn wrote:
Ahem. £26 sterling tax on a return ticket.


A bargain compared with walk up rail fares.

Just googled tomorrow. Euston to Lime Street. Cheapest standard single in rush hour is £136.


And do the majority of pax book their flights the day before they travel? I caught the train between Lime St and Euston just two weeks ago, purchased around 6 weeks in advance, Virgin Trains first class for £28. Of course prices are probably going to be ridiculous the day prior, the same rule generally applies to airfares too.
B737/738/739/744ER/752/753/763/77L/77W/788/789
A320/321/332/333/346/388
MD82/MD88/717/F100/RJ85/RJ100/146-100/200/300
E175/190/CRJ700/900
 
Boeing74741R
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Re: Why no direct flights between Liverpool and London?

Fri Jun 15, 2018 7:55 am

TC957 wrote:
I'm sure most people that need to travel to/from Liverpool from the South -East would welcome an easyJet service than be stuck for over two hours on an expensive, unreliable and often overcrowded train. easyJet should give it a go from LGW.


I wouldn't say the Virgin Trains service along the WCML is unreliable, especially not these days. Don't forget that BA scrapped MAN-LGW a few years ago, so if they decided to pull that route and nobody else has stepped in, that would suggest demand is weak. From the Merseyside/South Lancashire/Greater Manchester/Cheshire region, London is around 2hrs away on the train and if you're going to central London in particular, the plane is a hard sell once you factor in waiting times and transfer times at either end.

ihmcallister wrote:
Who connects through Heathrow these days anyway? You can fly anywhere in the world from Liverpool via Amsterdam, Dublin, Paris etc.


The only problem is that (at this time) to fly from Liverpool to other world destinations via those cities involve changing planes and checking in again as Air France and KLM don't serve LPL and Aer Lingus have axed LPL again after returning a couple of years ago.

Don't get me wrong, it would be good to see more airlines running flights from LPL to their hubs, but given EI tried and pulled out, others aren't currently present and MAN only being down the road with more and more direct links to long-haul destinations in particular, it would need a serious upturn in passenger numbers.
 
leghorn
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Re: Why no direct flights between Liverpool and London?

Fri Jun 15, 2018 8:00 am

London City Airport is probably the most desirable for people travelling to London from Liverpool as a destination as you are connected to the tube. LHR is more expensive and that tube journey from LHR to city centre is very long. A Q400 is probably the right plane for that trip but the £26 taxes mean that the Government get more out of the passengers than the regional airline which would operate it.
Enough passengers will pay a small premium for a flight from Liverpool if it delivers savings of over an hour in the morning and leaves them back in Liverpool earlier in the evening than the train.
Why fly from Heathrow when you can fly to the majority of popular long distance destinations from Manchester around the corner.
 
jumpjets
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Re: Why no direct flights between Liverpool and London?

Fri Jun 15, 2018 8:28 am

Going back to the 1980s I flew LHR-LPL-IOM on a Manx Airlines Short S330(Skyvan).
 
axiom
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Re: Why no direct flights between Liverpool and London?

Fri Jun 15, 2018 1:16 pm

Yes, it's worth emphasizing how MAN's rise has surely had consequences on services across the north, with LPL perhaps losing the most. MAN is effectively the go-to airport for most people from Liverpool right over to Leeds and Sheffield, especially for long haul travel. I don't see that changing any time soon, much though these smaller airports are great to use.
 
hohd
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Re: Why no direct flights between Liverpool and London?

Fri Jun 15, 2018 1:27 pm

Rail tickets are expensive too (especially the fast trains) and are priced accordingly due to lack of air service. I had wished that someone served LPL-London market, may be some one like easyjet or Ryanair. To go to London, most who live around LPL will not go to MAN and board a flight to London.
 
MIflyer12
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Re: Why no direct flights between Liverpool and London?

Fri Jun 15, 2018 2:44 pm

hohd wrote:
Rail tickets are expensive too (especially the fast trains) and are priced accordingly due to lack of air service.



I don't know. Virgin (direct) 2:12 travel time and GBP 17 one way on a date a few weeks from now.
 
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BaconButty
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Re: Why no direct flights between Liverpool and London?

Fri Jun 15, 2018 3:11 pm

Faro wrote:
Perhaps a paucity of business class pax? Liverpool is not the bustling industrial hub it used to be...


Faro


It's actually a City on the up. The real issue is the proximity of Manchester Airport and the ease of access to it along the M56. For many of the surrounding areas (the Wirral, West Cheshire, Warrington, North East Wales etc) it's near as dammit as quick to get to Ringway as Speke. Take me - I live on the Wirral. If I want a beer I jump on Merseyrail into town - but as far as Airports go, it's 40 mins + a Toll to Liverpool, or 45 mins to Manchester, and there's public transport to Manchester. So you're left with the city itself and West Lancs - Crosby, Formby, Southport etc. where LPL really has an edge, and it just doesn't have the critical mass.

If MAN had been on the North East side of the city instead of the South West, things would be different, and LBA would face the same issues (inspite of that, LPL has 20-25% more pax). Of course, the Pennines are a tad bumpy for that :-)
Down with that sort of thing!
 
RvA
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Re: Why no direct flights between Liverpool and London?

Fri Jun 15, 2018 3:34 pm

Isn’t MAN airport quite easIily in reach from Liverpool by train? If you live north of the city centre and were to drive, I believe MAN airport is maybe 15-20 mins more is it not? I’d say MAN airport’s catchment area overlaps greatly with LPL’s meaning perhaps it makes sense to focus and use the crew, aircraft and slots only at the larger airport vs needing double the resources?
 
Arion640
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Re: Why no direct flights between Liverpool and London?

Fri Jun 15, 2018 4:15 pm

Duplicate
Last edited by Arion640 on Fri Jun 15, 2018 4:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.
319 320 321 333 346 359 388 733 738 744 752 753 763 772 77E 773 77W 788 789 E145 E175 E195 RJ85 F70 DH8C DH8D AT75.

No CONC sadly.
 
Arion640
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Re: Why no direct flights between Liverpool and London?

Fri Jun 15, 2018 4:16 pm

WPvsMW wrote:
jde91 wrote:
Arion640 wrote:

You know London-New York is a big market when BA send the same [amount] of flights there each day as they do Manchester...


Ermm ok... what’s your point?


I think the post was intended as ... humour, with 2 u's. (Ergo, suus faceta Britannia.)


Yes, it was intended as humour...
319 320 321 333 346 359 388 733 738 744 752 753 763 772 77E 773 77W 788 789 E145 E175 E195 RJ85 F70 DH8C DH8D AT75.

No CONC sadly.
 
Redwood839
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Re: Why no direct flights between Liverpool and London?

Fri Jun 15, 2018 5:03 pm

I used to live in Chester which is kind of the same distance between MAN-LPL but I worked in front of MAN. On any day (company paid) going down to London I would've much rather taken the train than flying. Sure flying is more exciting but the time you have to be at the airport before hand plus time to exit the airport was a total killer for me, often being longer than flying. With rail, it took you 30-45 seconds to be out in the street on the go. LPL has a nice terminal so a good airport to fly out, but MAN T1 is horrible.

Same thing going to EDI/GLA, I used to train it every fortnight and always preferred the train to get some sleep versus the noisy Q400 on FlyBE. Sure the UK has a good highway system, but getting stuck on the M6 for 3 hours because some crashed? No thanks, rather pay more to take the train.
 
DobboDobbo
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Re: Why no direct flights between Liverpool and London?

Fri Jun 15, 2018 6:17 pm

davidjohnson6 wrote:
If Easyjet or Ryanair get a *lot* more serious about connecting short haul flights, would they perhaps consider a route to Gatwick or Stansted respectively ? On a point-to-point basis these routes are hopeless but I wonder if they were heavily based on being feeder traffic they might be worthwhile - geography works in their favour.


I don't see what this would achieve when MAN is on Liverpools doorstep.

MAN offers more direct options that STN, and not far off the same number as LGW. In short, there is probably nothing that can be done from LPL one stop via LGW than can be done one stop via MAN. If that is so, what's the point?
 
Turnhouse1
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Re: Why no direct flights between Liverpool and London?

Fri Jun 15, 2018 6:57 pm

LPL has a market in non-stop LCC/Charters to Europe and Ireland. Transfer traffic for LHR/AMS/CDG/FRA etc is catered for by MAN and airlines have correctly identified that they're close enough together that a frequent service from MAN is better than a split infrequent service.

Within the UK, the only flights which are viable for O&D involve Scotland or Northern Ireland, excepting a few FlyBe routes to Newquay, Exeter and Norwich. Trains taking 2hours from Liverpool, Manchester, Sheffield and Leeds have taken the vast majority of the market, aside from a few people going to somewhere nearer Heathrow than Central London. There is a train with more seats than an A380 every hour from Liverpool to London, there are 3 trains the same size from Manchester.
 
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XAM2175
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Re: Why no direct flights between Liverpool and London?

Fri Jun 15, 2018 7:13 pm

TC957 wrote:
I'm sure most people that need to travel to/from Liverpool from the South -East would welcome an easyJet service than be stuck for over two hours on an expensive, unreliable and often overcrowded train. easyJet should give it a go from LGW.


Are you saying that because in your experience the trains are consistently expensive, consistently unreliable, and often overcrowded, or just because you like thinking of all trains that way?

I'm also struggling to see how being "stuck for over two hours on [a] train" is all that much different to being stuck in a slow-moving security queue, being stuck in a slow-moving boarding queue being exhorted to surrender your baggage, being stuck in a holding stack somewhere near LON, and then after all that being stuck on whatever means of transport you're using to get from whatever London airport you've arrived at to the part of London you actually want to be in.

Wednesdayite wrote:
leghorn wrote:
Ahem. £26 sterling tax on a return ticket.

A bargain compared with walk up rail fares.
Just googled tomorrow. Euston to Lime Street. Cheapest standard single in rush hour is £136.


You may be misunderstanding things here. £13 is the Air Passenger Duty alone for a one-way Y flight anywhere within about 2000 miles of London.

That is to say - an airline selling a ticket for anything less than about twenty quid a pop one-way isn't going to have tuppence left to scrape together after APD and other taxes and charges.

Besides, am I to understand that the most basic tenet of airline revenue management - price to what the market will bear - is suddenly unconscionable when rail operators do it?

So let's have a more reasonable comparison over a similar route served by both rail and air: MAN-LON. It's coming up on 8pm in the UK at the moment and the cheapest fares for tomorrow (Saturday) are:
Rail - trip time circa 2.25 hours to Euston - cheapest £33, and most middle-of-the-day services are between £40 and £60.
Air - cheapest one-stop shown by ITA Matrix is with FlyBe, 0825 MAN to SEN, £138 before any additions. Flight time 65 minutes. Or for the real budget-conscious traveller, £124 via AMS on KL :p

I don't even bother to fly between LON and GLA/EDI anymore because flying doesn't save all that much time and the time it does save doesn't offset the hassle.
 
SelseyBill
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Re: Why no direct flights between Liverpool and London?

Fri Jun 15, 2018 7:25 pm

axiom wrote:
Wednesdayite wrote:
leghorn wrote:
Ahem. £26 sterling tax on a return ticket.


A bargain compared with walk up rail fares.

Just googled tomorrow. Euston to Lime Street. Cheapest standard single in rush hour is £136.


The answer to this particular dilemma isn't to start air service, it's to nationalize the rail system ;-)


.......absolute cobblers.

I'm old enough to remember the nationalised days of BR. The central problem with the nationalised railway then; and will, (god forbid), if it happens in the future; is investment.

A nationalised railway will always come third in the bidding for investment behind schools and hospitals. Say what you will about the current franchising model, but it has stimulated mass investment in the railway. There is a good case to 'tweak' the existing railway operating model, but nationalisation aint it.

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