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scbriml
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Re: Airbus rebrands C-Series to A220

Wed Jul 11, 2018 10:01 am

Slug71 wrote:
Not that it wasn't already dead, but the A220-300 just sealed the A319NEO's fate.


It has actually garnered some recent orders and conversions. So maybe on life support, but certainly not dead.

However, Airbus has now clearly redefined their offerings. The A319 fills the niche for long-range and high-performance markets while retaining A32X family commonality. It is also offered for the larger executive jet market.
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mjoelnir
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Re: Airbus rebrands C-Series to A220

Wed Jul 11, 2018 12:15 pm

Concorde2904 wrote:
Somebody should start an A220 orders thread, ifther eisn't one yet.


It will fit in the Boeing and Airbus orders thread.
 
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JetBuddy
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Re: Airbus rebrands C-Series to A220

Wed Jul 11, 2018 1:14 pm

N415XJ wrote:
How many times has an aircraft (airliner or otherwise) been developed/manufactured by one company, flew for a while under its original name, then had the name/brand completely changed without any kind of modifications being made? The only one I can think of is the MD-95->717, but IIRC the first plane in airline service was under Boeing branding as the 717. The DC-10 was changed to the MD-10, but revived an updated cockpit.


The DC-9-80 (Super 80) models that became the MD-80. MD-81/82/83 were all DC-9-81/82/83, but marketed as MD-80. The MD-87 and MD-88 were the first MD-80s without the DC-9 nomenclature I believe?
 
juliuswong
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Re: Airbus rebrands C-Series to A220

Thu Jul 12, 2018 1:30 am

There is another potential A220 customer Bangkok Airways. They have mentioned they do not need A320neo extra powerful engines and range. Most of their flight is less than 4-5hours. A220-300 can now fit in nicely with what they want. However, they have also mentioned they are not in hurry to replace their current fleet, it will be sometime before we see A220 in Bangkok Airways colour. Btw, they took delivery of another used A319ceo yesterday. HS-PPT, ex-Royal Jordanian JY-AYL.

If Moxy Airways can get their 60 pcs order firmed up this year, A220/CSeries will be highlight for the year! What a win-win situation for both Airbus and Bombardier!
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PlanesNTrains
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Re: Airbus rebrands C-Series to A220

Thu Jul 12, 2018 3:26 am

Super80Fan wrote:
Great going Boeing. The only one who deserves praise here is Airbus for saving it.


Who cares who saved it? It’s saved. It could have easily just whithered on the vine. Airbus was the best fit anyhow. I’d say that this is a win for everyone except Boeing, and it’s hardly clear that it’s a loss for Boeing.
-Dave
 
PlanesNTrains
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Re: Airbus rebrands C-Series to A220

Thu Jul 12, 2018 3:32 am

N766UA wrote:
Am I the only one who thinks “A220-300” and “A320-200” is REALLY confusing?


I liked A219/A220/A221 for consistency with the A320 series rather than follow the wide body pattern.
-Dave
 
TW870
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Re: Airbus rebrands C-Series to A220

Thu Jul 12, 2018 4:10 am

Slash787 wrote:
crimsonchin wrote:
I hope someone asks Airbus if they're even thinking about the CS500.


I would love to see a CS500 or well now A220-500


God I hope they are thinking about the 220-500. At least in the U.S. market, there is still so much ambiguity in what is going to happen to the 150 seat category. Except for the 100 American Max 8s, none of the big 3 are buying in that category now, and none seem remotely interested in buying anything in the Max7/8 category or the 319N/320N category. My question is whether Airbus thinks the A220-300 and A321N is a good enough offering, or if they are willing to sacrifice the 320N future orders in an effort to sell what I think would be a much more competitive A220-500. I am still depressed that the duopoly got to suck up Bombi's totally innovative but hot mess program, but I hope the airplane gets a full chance to mature.
 
mjoelnir
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Re: Airbus rebrands C-Series to A220

Thu Jul 12, 2018 9:16 am

TW870 wrote:
Slash787 wrote:
crimsonchin wrote:
I hope someone asks Airbus if they're even thinking about the CS500.


I would love to see a CS500 or well now A220-500


God I hope they are thinking about the 220-500. At least in the U.S. market, there is still so much ambiguity in what is going to happen to the 150 seat category. Except for the 100 American Max 8s, none of the big 3 are buying in that category now, and none seem remotely interested in buying anything in the Max7/8 category or the 319N/320N category. My question is whether Airbus thinks the A220-300 and A321N is a good enough offering, or if they are willing to sacrifice the 320N future orders in an effort to sell what I think would be a much more competitive A220-500. I am still depressed that the duopoly got to suck up Bombi's totally innovative but hot mess program, but I hope the airplane gets a full chance to mature.


Once again, what is so fascinating with the about the CS500/A220-500?

Possibility one, the A220-500 as a simple stretch of the A220-300. Same wing, same engines same MTOW. A frame for similar passenger numbers as the A320neo, but less capable. A good short haul frame, not capable for transcontinental and even less for TATL. A choice for airlines having the A220-100 or A220-300 in the fleet and needing a frame taking more passengers on rather short trips.

Possibility two. A stretch, new wing, bigger engines more MTOW than the A220-300. Are people really sure that that will be a better frame than the A320neo?

It would only pay off if it would be possible to show a significant advantage in fuel burn compared to the A320neo.

The A220-300 is already longer than the A320. 38.7 m compared to 37.57 m. To add 7 rows of 5 across, one would need to add at least 5 m, bringing a possible A220-500 to nearly the length of a A321. Is in this area a 5 across cabin perhaps inferior to a 6 across cabin? Would the bigger wing, bigger engines and added strength needed, bring an hypothetical A220-500 to a similar empty weight as an A320neo?

I think that a A220-500 would be a better choice than a A320neo is less than obvious. Perhaps version one would make some sense.
 
morrisond
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Re: Airbus rebrands C-Series to A220

Thu Jul 12, 2018 11:53 am

As Many have pointed out - most Short haul trips are less than 1,500 NM. A A220-500 with same MTOW as the -300 should be able to cover this more than amply given the C-series already pretty impressive range(for it's size). You can still get an A320 - but for large parts of route networks the A220-500 should be very efficient.
 
brindabella
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Re: Airbus rebrands C-Series to A220

Thu Jul 12, 2018 11:55 am

PlanesNTrains wrote:
Super80Fan wrote:
Great going Boeing. The only one who deserves praise here is Airbus for saving it.


Who cares who saved it? It’s saved. It could have easily just whithered on the vine. Airbus was the best fit anyhow. I’d say that this is a win for everyone except Boeing, and it’s hardly clear that it’s a loss for Boeing.


:checkmark:

Nice summary.

cheers
Billy
 
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Erebus
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Re: Airbus rebrands C-Series to A220

Thu Jul 12, 2018 12:43 pm

PlanesNTrains wrote:
I liked A219/A220/A221 for consistency with the A320 series rather than follow the wide body pattern.


Actually, by naming it A220-100/300, Airbus avoids getting stuck with another inconsistently named aircraft. At some point in the future, it will no longer offer the A318/A320/A321 for sale while the A220s will likely continue to be on offer upgraded or not. Any aircraft that replaces the A320 space can then be named using the same pattern as everything else. I think it would be fitting for Airbus to stick to A2XX as the pattern for short haul/ narrowbody aircraft while the A3XX is to be used for its higher capacity widebody lineup.
 
CS500
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Re: Airbus rebrands C-Series to A220

Thu Jul 12, 2018 12:45 pm

mjoelnir wrote:
TW870 wrote:
Slash787 wrote:

I would love to see a CS500 or well now A220-500


God I hope they are thinking about the 220-500. At least in the U.S. market, there is still so much ambiguity in what is going to happen to the 150 seat category. Except for the 100 American Max 8s, none of the big 3 are buying in that category now, and none seem remotely interested in buying anything in the Max7/8 category or the 319N/320N category. My question is whether Airbus thinks the A220-300 and A321N is a good enough offering, or if they are willing to sacrifice the 320N future orders in an effort to sell what I think would be a much more competitive A220-500. I am still depressed that the duopoly got to suck up Bombi's totally innovative but hot mess program, but I hope the airplane gets a full chance to mature.


Once again, what is so fascinating with the about the CS500/A220-500?

Possibility one, the A220-500 as a simple stretch of the A220-300. Same wing, same engines same MTOW. A frame for similar passenger numbers as the A320neo, but less capable. A good short haul frame, not capable for transcontinental and even less for TATL. A choice for airlines having the A220-100 or A220-300 in the fleet and needing a frame taking more passengers on rather short trips.

Possibility two. A stretch, new wing, bigger engines more MTOW than the A220-300. Are people really sure that that will be a better frame than the A320neo?

It would only pay off if it would be possible to show a significant advantage in fuel burn compared to the A320neo.

The A220-300 is already longer than the A320. 38.7 m compared to 37.57 m. To add 7 rows of 5 across, one would need to add at least 5 m, bringing a possible A220-500 to nearly the length of a A321. Is in this area a 5 across cabin perhaps inferior to a 6 across cabin? Would the bigger wing, bigger engines and added strength needed, bring an hypothetical A220-500 to a similar empty weight as an A320neo?

I think that a A220-500 would be a better choice than a A320neo is less than obvious. Perhaps version one would make some sense.


The A220-300 has the same (or very similar) CASM as the A320NEO with 15-20% fewer seats - so the trip cost of the A220-300 is likely 15% less. A stretch at the same MTOW would have virtually the same trip cost as the A220-300 while now having the same number of seats as the A320NEO, thus providing something like a 15% CASM advantage (and not to mention better passenger comfort to boot). While not as capable as the A320NEO, it will be able to do most missions (like it can probably cover all of the US from say Atlanta for Delta) for way cheaper. That is a very, very compelling plane.
 
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JetBuddy
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Re: Airbus rebrands C-Series to A220

Thu Jul 12, 2018 12:48 pm

Have the ICAO and IATA codes been updated for the A220 yet? Wiki still lists them as BCS1/CS1 and BCS3/CS3.
 
gilesdavies
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Re: Airbus rebrands C-Series to A220

Thu Jul 12, 2018 12:51 pm

WIll Airbus be making any changes to the C-Series like cockpit/maintenance commonality?

This is a major selling point for Airbus and operators who currently have large Airbus fleets?
 
ZaphodHarkonnen
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Re: Airbus rebrands C-Series to A220

Thu Jul 12, 2018 1:03 pm

JetBuddy wrote:
Have the ICAO and IATA codes been updated for the A220 yet? Wiki still lists them as BCS1/CS1 and BCS3/CS3.


Why would the need updating? I'd put that on the nice to have list but hardly resembling anything like a requirement.

Especially as there are a bunch out there flying already and all the existing documentation that refers to the existing code.
 
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JetBuddy
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Re: Airbus rebrands C-Series to A220

Thu Jul 12, 2018 1:12 pm

ZaphodHarkonnen wrote:
JetBuddy wrote:
Have the ICAO and IATA codes been updated for the A220 yet? Wiki still lists them as BCS1/CS1 and BCS3/CS3.


Why would the need updating? I'd put that on the nice to have list but hardly resembling anything like a requirement.

Especially as there are a bunch out there flying already and all the existing documentation that refers to the existing code.


Because changing it only requires a bit of paperwork. And the labor involved pales in comparison to everything else that needs to be updated regarding the name change. And there aren't that many flying.
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: Airbus rebrands C-Series to A220

Thu Jul 12, 2018 2:05 pm

Why bother; its designation is BD-500 and that’s how it will show on flight plans, etc.

GF
 
AvObserver
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Re: Airbus rebrands C-Series to A220

Fri Jul 13, 2018 5:34 am

Well, Airbus took over the program so they can brand it any way they want. But at the end of the day, it's still not an Airbus design, just like the 717 wasn't a Boeing design. Though Airbus likely saved the program, the Bombardier designers must be feeling a bit wistful that their name and the name they chose for the plane have been wiped clean off of it. To them, it will surely always be their CSeries.

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