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Someone83
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Re: JetBlue Orders 60 Airbus A220-300

Tue Jul 10, 2018 9:32 pm

Abeam79 wrote:
It will also open up possibilities in the already proven tatl routes. Heard rumors of Jfk-lcy which was already proven. Even Jfk-opo or any of the other Canary Islands as a possibility. And yes, small midwest markets and long thin transcon as well.
As far as syr/btv/pwm/roc. They used to be all Airbus before the E190’s came and did a good job filling the A320 up. The A220-100/300 is a perfect aircraft on those very mature markets.


They need an A220–100 to operate into LCY.....

So we can eliminate that rumour from the list ;)
 
ScottB
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Re: JetBlue Orders 60 Airbus A220-300

Tue Jul 10, 2018 9:32 pm

SurfandSnow wrote:
"The [A220] aircraft opens the door to new markets and routes that would have been unprofitable with JetBlue's existing fleet". Very interesting! This probably means SNA, and perhaps other operationally challenging yet extremely popular places like APF, ASE, EGE, EYW and JAC too! I can't wait to see what B6 decides to do with these planes...


What I think it really means is routes that have been too thin for the A320 but too long for the E190. I think it may also allow them to go year-round in certain seasonal markets (i.e BOS-SMF, SYR-FLL, JFK-MVY).

Momo1435 wrote:
Also mentioned in the press release is that they have converted their remaining 25 A320neo on order to the A321neo.


If I had to guess, I think this also means we may never see B6 take delivery of another new A320. I'd expect to see the A320s eventually replaced by A321neos and A220-300s. I think the economics of an A220-300 with ~140 seats will be incredibly compelling against a 162-seat A320.
 
tphuang
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Re: JetBlue Orders 60 Airbus A220-300

Tue Jul 10, 2018 9:34 pm

queb wrote:
delivery schedule. All a/c made in USA.

Image



This is the other interesting part I missed the first time looking at this. All the A320NEOs got converted to A321NEOs. Pretty large jump in capacity.

The old delivery schedule didn't make much sense with 20 aircraft in 2020 and 2021 and 13/14 in other years. New schedule delivers about 12 to 16 A321s every year until 2022.

I am surprised they still haven't picked up on any LR options.
 
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sunking737
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Re: JetBlue Orders 60 Airbus A220-300

Tue Jul 10, 2018 9:47 pm

I'm not suprised at this order at all. They will have an all airbus fleet now. The question is will Frontier, and Spirit go the same route??
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Flighty
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Re: JetBlue Orders 60 Airbus A220-300

Tue Jul 10, 2018 9:49 pm

ScottB wrote:
If I had to guess, I think this also means we may never see B6 take delivery of another new A320. I'd expect to see the A320s eventually replaced by A321neos and A220-300s. I think the economics of an A220-300 with ~140 seats will be incredibly compelling against a 162-seat A320.


Yes, agreed. That is the shakeout.

More airlines to do the same?
 
LH658
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Re: JetBlue Orders 60 Airbus A220-300

Tue Jul 10, 2018 9:51 pm

Is the A220 like a c300 combination of Airbus/bombardier? Since that whole fiasco of bombardier selling planes in the US etc.
 
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scbriml
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Re: JetBlue Orders 60 Airbus A220-300

Tue Jul 10, 2018 9:51 pm

globetrotter94 wrote:
I thought they were buying E2s...


So did a number of Brazilian posters. First the World Cup, now this.

Frankly, it’s a massive kick in the balls for Embraer.

Congrats to JetBlue and Airbus for the first of what I expect to be many new orders.
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ACCS300
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Re: JetBlue Orders 60 Airbus A220-300

Tue Jul 10, 2018 9:53 pm

Wow that was quick!! Airbus has cornered the NB market now and added so much clout to the CSeries, now that fantastic plane has the backing and stability it needed!
 
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lightsaber
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Re: JetBlue Orders 60 Airbus A220-300

Tue Jul 10, 2018 9:53 pm

Late edit:. Congrats B6, Airbus, Bombardier, and Pratt!

Why are people worried about shortfield. Pratt certified a thrust bump. A few flight tests and JetBlue could fly loaded. Also the routes discussed will be with moderate fuel loads. We are not approaching MTOW.




WkndWanderer wrote:
catiii wrote:
Fex180 wrote:
Wonder what this means for their smaller markets like BTV, PWM, SYR ect.


It means nothing.


What other examples are there where an airline replaced their smallest plane for a 30-40% increase in capacity without any smaller gauge replacement or regional flying in place? May be interesting to see to see how that affected smaller markets.

Cost per flight (at the prices I believe JetBlue paid) is less for the A220-300 per my math. The E1-190 is not a cost effective plane anymore.

Fly more empty seats? Meh, connecting opportunities. You do realize the A220-300 CASM is less than the A320NEO CASM? B6 will upgauge NEOs to the A321.
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william
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Re: JetBlue Orders 60 Airbus A220-300

Tue Jul 10, 2018 9:56 pm

We kind of knew the CS errr........the A220 had the advantage in this contest. A big congrats to Airbus and Jetblue, I expect orders from other airlines to follow at Farnborough.

Using the A220 to replace older A320s, hmmm, might be an idea that catches on like wild fire at other carriers. If it does Airbus will need every inch of those two assembly locations.
Last edited by william on Tue Jul 10, 2018 9:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
Arion640
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Re: JetBlue Orders 60 Airbus A220-300

Tue Jul 10, 2018 9:58 pm

Did this order appear as undisclosed? Or was that something else...
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kenns18
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Re: JetBlue Orders 60 Airbus A220-300

Tue Jul 10, 2018 10:04 pm

In the info-graphic detailing some of the features of the A220-300, they didn't mention in-seat tv's or entertainment options. I am pretty sure these will have the touch screen tv's that are on the A321's?

Also - was the 60 plane order strictly 220-300 or do the order include some 220-100 versions as well?
 
JoeCanuck
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Re: JetBlue Orders 60 Airbus A220-300

Tue Jul 10, 2018 10:04 pm

Revelation wrote:
Samrnpage wrote:
Massive blow to the E2 and Embraer. This was always in the bag for the Cser.....sorry A220.

Your statement (among many here) makes little sense -- how is it a massive blow for EMB if it was already in the bag for A/BBD?

Regardless, it's a great order for A/BBD, something many of us hoped for the program since the early days.

The long tail on the delivery dates suggests they aren't too optimistic on production rate rampup, though.


The plan might be to build these from the US line, to head Boeing off at the pass. BBD won trade dispute because Boeing didn't have a competitive product to the CS100. It's a different story with the CS300.
What the...?
 
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Revelation
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Re: JetBlue Orders 60 Airbus A220-300

Tue Jul 10, 2018 10:05 pm

Samrnpage wrote:
Massive blow to the E2 and Embraer. This was always in the bag for the Cser.....sorry A220.

Your statement (among many here) makes little sense -- how is it a massive blow for EMB if it was already in the bag for A/BBD?

Regardless, it's a great order for A/BBD, something many of us hoped for the program since the early days.

The long tail on the delivery dates suggests they aren't too optimistic on production rate rampup, though.
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cathay747
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Re: JetBlue Orders 60 Airbus A220-300

Tue Jul 10, 2018 10:06 pm

AA94 wrote:
Image


Oh...now that's just plain/plane sexy!
Try a Little VC-10derness
 
ScottB
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Re: JetBlue Orders 60 Airbus A220-300

Tue Jul 10, 2018 10:07 pm

lightsaber wrote:
Fly more empty seats? Meh, connecting opportunities. You do realize the A220-300 CASM is less than the A320NEO CASM? B6 will upgauge NEOs to the A321.


You have to wonder if a key reason why Airbus took a controlling stake in the C-Series was in order to prevent the CS500 from ever seeing the light of day. That variant would kill the A320neo apart from a few markets where the A320neo's range would be needed. It'd even be problematic for the A321neo in any application which didn't require the additional seats and/or range.
 
JoeCanuck
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Re: JetBlue Orders 60 Airbus A220-300

Tue Jul 10, 2018 10:08 pm

This will certainly be boost in confidence to prospective customers.

On a side note...why are replies appearing ahead of posts that they are quoting?

Weird.
Last edited by JoeCanuck on Tue Jul 10, 2018 10:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.
What the...?
 
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OA940
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Re: JetBlue Orders 60 Airbus A220-300

Tue Jul 10, 2018 10:08 pm

As bad as the name is, Airbus definitely will help with the orders...
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WeatherPilot
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Re: JetBlue Orders 60 Airbus A220-300

Tue Jul 10, 2018 10:09 pm

Although it is a larger airplane the increased efficiency overall should allow B6 to try smaller routes it otherwise wouldn't even think about before. Here's hoping SYR gets a few more routes!
 
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Revelation
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Re: JetBlue Orders 60 Airbus A220-300

Tue Jul 10, 2018 10:10 pm

FlyBTV wrote:
So it is not out of the question that BTV can support A220s instead of 190s. I'd imagine that SYR, PWM, etc are the same, particularly if the plane has significantly better operating economics.

Yes, and the big bang in A220 deliveries doesn't happen for another five years so E190 won't be gone tomorrow.

B6 will have time to decide which routes need A220-300 first, and if/when A220-100 would make sense.
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ikolkyo
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Re: JetBlue Orders 60 Airbus A220-300

Tue Jul 10, 2018 10:10 pm

scbriml wrote:
globetrotter94 wrote:
I thought they were buying E2s...


So did a number of Brazilian posters. First the World Cup, now this.

Frankly, it’s a massive kick in the balls for Embraer.

Congrats to JetBlue and Airbus for the first of what I expect to be many new orders.


Haha, too soon too soon.
 
WeatherPilot
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Re: JetBlue Orders 60 Airbus A220-300

Tue Jul 10, 2018 10:12 pm

Was just thinking the A220 would serve B6's BUF-LAX route really well.
 
JoeCanuck
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Re: JetBlue Orders 60 Airbus A220-300

Tue Jul 10, 2018 10:14 pm

ScottB wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
Fly more empty seats? Meh, connecting opportunities. You do realize the A220-300 CASM is less than the A320NEO CASM? B6 will upgauge NEOs to the A321.


You have to wonder if a key reason why Airbus took a controlling stake in the C-Series was in order to prevent the CS500 from ever seeing the light of day. That variant would kill the A320neo apart from a few markets where the A320neo's range would be needed. It'd even be problematic for the A321neo in any application which didn't require the additional seats and/or range.



My theory is that Airbus got the CSeries so that, down the line, the the 220-500 would replace the 320. The 220-300 beats the casm of the 320neo which is possibly why Jet Blue felt free to switch their order from 320's to 321's.
What the...?
 
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lightsaber
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Re: JetBlue Orders 60 Airbus A220-300

Tue Jul 10, 2018 10:14 pm

I'm personally excited for I hope for more long thin. That is my hope. I realize it is more likely JetBlue ordered a reduced MTOW, restrictions on allowed fuel load (same as Delta), and possibly reduced thrust engines (I doubt that, but I am going off opinion).

But even if range is reduced 15%, TCON is possible... (But not Hawaii).

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ScottB
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Re: JetBlue Orders 60 Airbus A220-300

Tue Jul 10, 2018 10:16 pm

Revelation wrote:
B6 will have time to decide which routes need A220-300 first, and if/when A220-100 would make sense.


So, one other development that I think will come over time, and which IMO is partly enabled by B6's choice of the A220, will be B6's further transformation into a legacy carrier. I'd expect to see the A220s, either at delivery or somewhat later, end up with a Mint product somewhat like the legacy carriers' domestic F. The A220 helps given that they can offer a 12-seat short-haul Mint cabin while effectively giving up only 3 Even More Space seats. That would be useful in defending BOS against DL's efforts to grow there.
 
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gatibosgru
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Re: JetBlue Orders 60 Airbus A220-300

Tue Jul 10, 2018 10:18 pm

I was hoping they'd go for the E2 family, but congrats to the JetBlue/Bombardier/Airbus!
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WeatherPilot
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Re: JetBlue Orders 60 Airbus A220-300

Tue Jul 10, 2018 10:18 pm

I wonder how much of their decision was influenced by DL's A220 order.
 
DDR
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Re: JetBlue Orders 60 Airbus A220-300

Tue Jul 10, 2018 10:21 pm

Congrats to JetBlue and Airbus! Exciting times.
 
kenns18
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Re: JetBlue Orders 60 Airbus A220-300

Tue Jul 10, 2018 10:26 pm

Will these planes have the same touch screen tv's as the A321's?
 
UPNYGuy
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Re: JetBlue Orders 60 Airbus A220-300

Tue Jul 10, 2018 10:26 pm

Not at ALL surprised to see the B6 order. This was long expected. B6 has made the lack of love for the E180 very public.
 
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Super80Fan
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Re: JetBlue Orders 60 Airbus A220-300

Tue Jul 10, 2018 10:27 pm

Didn't expect it to happen this soon. Congrats to Airbus and JetBlue! Can't wait to fly in one.
RIP McDonnell Douglas
 
tphuang
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Re: JetBlue Orders 60 Airbus A220-300

Tue Jul 10, 2018 10:27 pm

ScottB wrote:
Revelation wrote:
B6 will have time to decide which routes need A220-300 first, and if/when A220-100 would make sense.


So, one other development that I think will come over time, and which IMO is partly enabled by B6's choice of the A220, will be B6's further transformation into a legacy carrier. I'd expect to see the A220s, either at delivery or somewhat later, end up with a Mint product somewhat like the legacy carriers' domestic F. The A220 helps given that they can offer a 12-seat short-haul Mint cabin while effectively giving up only 3 Even More Space seats. That would be useful in defending BOS against DL's efforts to grow there.


Very good point there. I was more thinking of 2 rows instead of 3. And those seats would sell for a long thin transcon like jfk bur or bos sjc.

Also I think one strike against ordering 100 is that the cost of extra fa might reduce the benefits of 10 extra seats. Not an issue for 300.
 
tomcat
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Re: JetBlue Orders 60 Airbus A220-300

Tue Jul 10, 2018 10:27 pm

After this order for 60 A220-300, is it correct to still expect an order of 60 A220-300 from Moxy (with deliveries said to start in 2020)? I find it a bit intriguing that both JetBlue's order and Moxy potential order cover the same number of aircraft, the same type and the same initial delivery time frame.
 
Galwayman
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Re: JetBlue Orders 60 Airbus A220-300

Tue Jul 10, 2018 10:32 pm

Can A220 do BOS > DUB ?? That would be a game changer matched with A321LR for flexibility
 
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Re: JetBlue Orders 60 Airbus A220-300

Tue Jul 10, 2018 10:37 pm

Revelation wrote:
FlyBTV wrote:
So it is not out of the question that BTV can support A220s instead of 190s. I'd imagine that SYR, PWM, etc are the same, particularly if the plane has significantly better operating economics.

Yes, and the big bang in A220 deliveries doesn't happen for another five years so E190 won't be gone tomorrow.

B6 will have time to decide which routes need A220-300 first, and if/when A220-100 would make sense.

BTV has a 8,319ft runway per Wikipedia. Why is everyone concerned? Does anyone have a link to the CS300 airport planning manual?


Some routes might be of concern, but not many.

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MIflyer12
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Re: JetBlue Orders 60 Airbus A220-300

Tue Jul 10, 2018 10:39 pm

[quote="sunking737"]I'm not suprised at this order at all. They will have an all airbus fleet now./quote]

It's not like there's cockpit or parts commonality between a 321 and a 220. It means you're just dealing with one sales team.
 
SyracuseAvGeek
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Re: JetBlue Orders 60 Airbus A220-300

Tue Jul 10, 2018 10:40 pm

WkndWanderer wrote:
catiii wrote:
Fex180 wrote:
Wonder what this means for their smaller markets like BTV, PWM, SYR ect.


It means nothing.


What other examples are there where an airline replaced their smallest plane for a 30-40% increase in capacity without any smaller gauge replacement or regional flying in place? May be interesting to see to see how that affected smaller markets.


One example is Hilton Head, AA retired the Dash-8 and replaced it with E175
Last edited by SyracuseAvGeek on Tue Jul 10, 2018 10:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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lightsaber
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Re: JetBlue Orders 60 Airbus A220-300

Tue Jul 10, 2018 10:43 pm

tomcat wrote:
After this order for 60 A220-300, is it correct to still expect an order of 60 A220-300 from Moxy (with deliveries said to start in 2020)? I find it a bit intriguing that both JetBlue's order and Moxy potential order cover the same number of aircraft, the same type and the same initial delivery time frame.

Moxy is a competitor to JetBlue, so there orders are independent. However, this shows JetBlue is going after Moxie's business plan... :box:

I suspect that the number of aircraft matching was a statement to Moxy...

Timeframe is based on ramping up Mobile. For such small orders, not a big deal.

Lightsaber

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Flighty
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Re: JetBlue Orders 60 Airbus A220-300

Tue Jul 10, 2018 10:50 pm

ScottB wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
Fly more empty seats? Meh, connecting opportunities. You do realize the A220-300 CASM is less than the A320NEO CASM? B6 will upgauge NEOs to the A321.


You have to wonder if a key reason why Airbus took a controlling stake in the C-Series was in order to prevent the CS500 from ever seeing the light of day. That variant would kill the A320neo apart from a few markets where the A320neo's range would be needed. It'd even be problematic for the A321neo in any application which didn't require the additional seats and/or range.


It turns out to be even more sinister than that. Because of Airbus and Boeing’s financial power, it was impossible for bombardier to market the CS300, because of market trashing by 737 and A319. This was deemed a credible threat and the CSeries program financially died. Then Airbus suddenly sells the CS300 no problem and may even make big profit on the program. That’s sickening. It means we do not live in a competitive world. BBD innovated and AFAIK Airbus strongarmed them and took it away from them. Did BBD make a good profit? If not, who will make the mistake of innovating again? 737 Max simply underlines this point. It’s a disgrace.

As for the 500 - your point is likely correct that Airbus and Boeing needed to kill it - or own it. And who would blame Airbus for green lighting that product now and making beaucoup moneys?! How will the 738 Max fare against the A220-500? Uh-oh, Boeing!
Last edited by Flighty on Tue Jul 10, 2018 11:00 pm, edited 2 times in total.
 
maximairways
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Re: JetBlue Orders 60 Airbus A220-300

Tue Jul 10, 2018 11:03 pm

WeatherPilot wrote:
Was just thinking the A220 would serve B6's BUF-LAX route really well.


That route is actually doing pretty well now. The winter maybe when its cut down to 5x weekly.
 
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Jayafe
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Re: JetBlue Orders 60 Airbus A220-300

Tue Jul 10, 2018 11:16 pm

Flighty wrote:
Because of Airbus and Boeing’s financial power, it was impossible for bombardier to market the CS300, because of market trashing by 737 and A319. This was deemed a credible threat and the CSeries program financially died. Then Airbus suddenly sells the CS300 no problem and may even make big profit on the program. That’s sickening. It means we do not live in a competitive world. BBD innovated and AFAIK Airbus strongarmed them and took it away from them.


Wow, are you aware that you’ve completely twisted the argument and made up facts to somehow blame Airbus of the manufacturing problems of BBD, the lawsuit from Boeing, the reputation problems of the program because of delays and the lack of an efficient supply chain? You said AFAIK, I strongly suggest you get better sources.
 
gsg013
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Re: JetBlue Orders 60 Airbus A220-300

Tue Jul 10, 2018 11:26 pm

evank516 wrote:
tphuang wrote:
With A220-300, I could see
JFK/BOS/FLL-SNA/BUR
JFK/BOS-EYW
Would A220-100 work with HPN-LAX/SFO?

More importantly, they can finally do red-eyes flights with something other than A320s. A220-300 will be a boon in the secondary transcon market.


I don't think JFK/BOS-EYW will work on the -300. Don't know if the plane would be light enough to handle the short runway. The -100 variant would be no problem.


What is the A220-300 MTOW and Empty weight? How does it compare to the 737-700 I would assume the 737 is a heavier plane than the A220 will be? DL flys the 737-700 3-5 times a day into EYW from ATL.
 
sccutler
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Re: JetBlue Orders 60 Airbus A220-300

Tue Jul 10, 2018 11:27 pm

Nice deal for Bombardier. A shame they lacked the financial stability to stay the course independently, but the combination with Airbus makes good business sense all the way around, for all manner of reasons already cited.

Fact is, no Airbus partnership, and these kinds of commitments would never have happened.
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ytz
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Re: JetBlue Orders 60 Airbus A220-300

Tue Jul 10, 2018 11:28 pm

They need to get on the CS500...er...A220-500.

221/223, 225 and 321NEO is the perfect fleet for a lot of airlines. Allows Airbus to move a lot of sales up the 320 family value chain too.
 
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Revelation
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Re: JetBlue Orders 60 Airbus A220-300

Tue Jul 10, 2018 11:29 pm

Flighty wrote:
It turns out to be even more sinister than that. Because of Airbus and Boeing’s financial power, it was impossible for bombardier to market the CS300, because of market trashing by 737 and A319. This was deemed a credible threat and the CSeries program financially died. Then Airbus suddenly sells the CS300 no problem and may even make big profit on the program. That’s sickening. It means we do not live in a competitive world. BBD innovated and AFAIK Airbus strongarmed them and took it away from them. Did BBD make a good profit? If not, who will make the mistake of innovating again? 737 Max simply underlines this point. It’s a disgrace.

So, what are A and B supposed to do, sit around and let BBD/EMB grow to the point that they become a threat? A & B are building A32x/B737 at 50+/month each and heading to 60/month. Their costs are SO much cheaper than BBD/EMB. That gives them the room to flex their muscles. I don't see how you could "fix" that. It's not like EMB/BBD have some inalienable right to exist.

Flighty wrote:
As for the 500 - your point is likely correct that Airbus and Boeing needed to kill it - or own it. And who would blame Airbus for green lighting that product now and making beaucoup moneys?! How will the 738 Max fare against the A220-500? Uh-oh, Boeing!

I think B would love A to commit to a 5x A220-500 and then let NSA come along with the optimal 6x and give them a beat down. Then Airbus would need to invest in something to cover the A321/NMA market segment too since the 6x NSA and 7x NMA will have them bracketed. Then B would have similar tech from NSA to NMA to 787 and even some crew crossover to 77X. It'd be a great product lineup.
Last edited by Revelation on Tue Jul 10, 2018 11:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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seat38a
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Re: JetBlue Orders 60 Airbus A220-300

Tue Jul 10, 2018 11:29 pm

The A220-300 burns 40 percent less fuel per seat than the E190s

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... lion-order

Correct me if I'm wrong but with efficiency difference like that, you can operate the bigger planes into the current markets that the E190's fly and still make it work with empty seats.
 
WkndWanderer
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Re: JetBlue Orders 60 Airbus A220-300

Tue Jul 10, 2018 11:30 pm

Flighty wrote:

As for the 500 - your point is likely correct that Airbus and Boeing needed to kill it - or own it. And who would blame Airbus for green lighting that product now and making beaucoup moneys?! How will the 738 Max fare against the A220-500? Uh-oh, Boeing!


Airbus has about 4,000 outstanding A320NEO orders they could risk cannibalizing or undercutting with such a move, unlike the A319NEO which had an anemic order book and was not much of a loss to effectively replace. I think it's pretty clear from everything Airbus said today "The aircraft are fully optimized for the 100 to 150 seat market and perfectly complement Airbus’ existing best-selling A320neo family", even down to the new Airbus Jr. names they chose to give the planes clearly bracketing them below the A320 from a size and brand perspective, that they want the A220 to stay firmly in the <150 seat segment and out of the A320/1NEO's way or at least bundled with them.
Last edited by WkndWanderer on Tue Jul 10, 2018 11:34 pm, edited 4 times in total.
 
queb
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Re: JetBlue Orders 60 Airbus A220-300

Tue Jul 10, 2018 11:32 pm

gsg013 wrote:
evank516 wrote:
tphuang wrote:
With A220-300, I could see
JFK/BOS/FLL-SNA/BUR
JFK/BOS-EYW
Would A220-100 work with HPN-LAX/SFO?

More importantly, they can finally do red-eyes flights with something other than A320s. A220-300 will be a boon in the secondary transcon market.


I don't think JFK/BOS-EYW will work on the -300. Don't know if the plane would be light enough to handle the short runway. The -100 variant would be no problem.


What is the A220-300 MTOW and Empty weight? How does it compare to the 737-700 I would assume the 737 is a heavier plane than the A220 will be? DL flys the 737-700 3-5 times a day into EYW from ATL.


OWE 81'700 lbs
MTOW 149'000 lbs
 
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Re: JetBlue Orders 60 Airbus A220-300

Tue Jul 10, 2018 11:34 pm

Great news for the program - enough to offset the awkward new name imo.
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lightsaber
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Re: JetBlue Orders 60 Airbus A220-300

Tue Jul 10, 2018 11:38 pm

Revelation wrote:
Flighty wrote:
It turns out to be even more sinister than that. Because of Airbus and Boeing’s financial power, it was impossible for bombardier to market the CS300, because of market trashing by 737 and A319. This was deemed a credible threat and the CSeries program financially died. Then Airbus suddenly sells the CS300 no problem and may even make big profit on the program. That’s sickening. It means we do not live in a competitive world. BBD innovated and AFAIK Airbus strongarmed them and took it away from them. Did BBD make a good profit? If not, who will make the mistake of innovating again? 737 Max simply underlines this point. It’s a disgrace.

So, what are A and B supposed to do, sit around and let BBD/EMB grow to the point that they become a threat? A & B are building A32x/B737 at 50+/month each and heading to 60/month. Their costs are SO much cheaper than BBD/EMB. That gives them the room to flex their muscles. I don't see how you could "fix" that. It's not like EMB/BBD have some inalienable right to exist.

Flighty wrote:
As for the 500 - your point is likely correct that Airbus and Boeing needed to kill it - or own it. And who would blame Airbus for green lighting that product now and making beaucoup moneys?! How will the 738 Max fare against the A220-500? Uh-oh, Boeing!

I think B would love A to commit to a 5x A220-500 and then let NSA come along with the optimal 6x and give them a beat down. Then Airbus would need to invest in something to cover the A321/NMA market segment too since the 6x NSA and 7x NMA will have them bracketed. Then B would have similar tech from NSA to NMA to 787 and even some crew crossover to 77X. It'd be a great product lineup.

A 5X A220-500 would be sub-optimal for 4+ hour missions, but very cost effective for <3 hour missions. The cost is low enough that Airbus would recover in plenty of time.

CFRP wings change the economics. It is better for Airbus to sacrifice the A320NEO and focus on building A321NEOs. Someone will be more efficient. This an industry of leap frogging.

Airbus and Boeing were brutal competitors, but they had nothing to do with Bombardier's mismanagement of the supply chain. When Pratt had engines, Bombardier still wasn't ready. Can anyone say Zodiac (who has just hired someone awesome).

Lightsaber
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