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kanban
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HNA and A330 delivery problems.. no money

Wed Jul 11, 2018 5:31 pm

Per http://finance.yahoo.com/news/exclusive ... 41448.html There seems to be a problem brewing with late and delinquent payments to Airbus for some A330s

Not what Airbus needs.
 
Varsity1
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Re: HNA and A330 delivery problems.. no money

Wed Jul 11, 2018 5:52 pm

Are they 242T -300's? Engines? Delta could accelerate slots.
"PPRuNe will no longer allow discussions regarding Etihad Airlines, its employees, executives, agents, or other representatives. Such threads will be deleted." - ME3 thug airlines suing anyone who brings negative information public..
 
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aemoreira1981
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Re: HNA and A330 delivery problems.. no money

Wed Jul 11, 2018 5:56 pm

    Varsity1 wrote:
    Are they 242T -300's? Engines? Delta could accelerate slots.

    DL might be deferring to get the 251t version.
     
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    alex0easy
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    Re: HNA and A330 delivery problems.. no money

    Wed Jul 11, 2018 6:07 pm

    Varsity1 wrote:
    Are they 242T -300's? Engines? Delta could accelerate slots.


    I doubt DL needs more A330ceos.
     
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    Polot
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    Re: HNA and A330 delivery problems.. no money

    Wed Jul 11, 2018 6:16 pm

    Varsity1 wrote:
    Are they 242T -300's? Engines? Delta could accelerate slots.

    Delta doesn’t have any A333s on order. These planes are not going anywhere until the mess is completely sorted out.
     
    zakuivcustom
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    Re: HNA and A330 delivery problems.. no money

    Wed Jul 11, 2018 9:22 pm

    Quick glance over A333 order. There's Tianjin, Hainan, Capital Airlines that are on hold. HX (HK Airlines) still has 9 on order, but they're also part of HNA group (although not sure if the money problem extend to them or not). Other than that, seems like there's MU and Shenzhen Airlines, each still have a few A333 to be delivered.

    Not sure who else is there, though. Most A33x orders otherwise are for A339neo.
     
    moyangmm
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    Re: HNA and A330 delivery problems.. no money

    Wed Jul 11, 2018 9:29 pm

    aemoreira1981 wrote:
      Varsity1 wrote:
      Are they 242T -300's? Engines? Delta could accelerate slots.

      DL might be deferring to get the 251t version.


      There is no 251t version of A330ceo.
       
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      lightsaber
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      Re: HNA and A330 delivery problems.. no money

      Wed Jul 11, 2018 9:30 pm

      $1 billion held. I'm not shocked Airbus will not finance. But ouch... Not needed. But better to have the collateral parked on Airbus land (owned or rented) than in a far off bankruptcy.
      You only have the first amendment with the 2nd. If you're not going to offend someone with what you say, you don't have the 1st.
       
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      kanban
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      Re: HNA and A330 delivery problems.. no money

      Wed Jul 11, 2018 9:40 pm

      In a broader sense I see this as the beginning of a problem with airlines without financing ordering huge numbers of aircraft... hopefully the OEMs will catch most before they enter production or there will be fire sales and whitetails...
       
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      lightsaber
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      Re: HNA and A330 delivery problems.. no money

      Wed Jul 11, 2018 10:22 pm

      kanban wrote:
      In a broader sense I see this as the beginning of a problem with airlines without financing ordering huge numbers of aircraft... hopefully the OEMs will catch most before they enter production or there will be fire sales and whitetails...

      HNA is an outlier. However, you have a good point. Today's massive backlogs happened with both Airframerss and airlines taking the risk financing might be difficult.

      Anecdotal evidence points to leasing companies avoiding widebodies except with blue Chip airlines. I speculate that AirAsia is unable to arrange sale-leaseback deals on the A330NEO (I would be shocked if they could actually...). Thus breaking their low cash acquisition of aircraft. In general, leasing companies are demanding airlines pay far more of the early fees as far as I can tell. They are also estimating much lower end of lease residual values and longer periods of time to place an aircraft changing lease return rules.

      Firesale? Boeing cut production costs to initiate the current market compounded by high production rates. We are already there.

      White tails? That depends on the plane. Airbus cannot free up nearterm A350 production slots for sales campaigns. That aircraft is as immune as possible.

      Boeing is intentionally scheduling 787s whitetails to aid sales campaigns. It is working well for them so far, but in a rapid downturn, Boeing will have it tough, but we are not there yet. Let us see how Farnborough goes.

      Boeing is being conservative on the 777. Should mitigate risk unless EK or FedEx cannot finance; unlikely as they are blue Chip airlines.

      I ignore the A380 and 747 as there production is in the noise, but there will be much pain and cost involved in selling any whitetail. The 767Fs I also ignore, but little chance of a whitetail.

      Sadly, the A330 is the airframe, CEO or NEO, most difficult to place without further discount (easy to place if discounted to compete with used A330, there is a healthy secondary market, just a shrewed buyer's market). The finally elevated 787 production is I believe targeted squarely at the A330.

      Due to huge backlogs, the narrowbody has less risk, mostly with prior generation engines (now being sold a steep discount). E.g., Allegiant picking up more new A320CEOs as they can make the prepayment and rumors on pricing do not bode well for future used CEO and NG values.

      Lightsaber
      You only have the first amendment with the 2nd. If you're not going to offend someone with what you say, you don't have the 1st.
       
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      seabosdca
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      Re: HNA and A330 delivery problems.. no money

      Wed Jul 11, 2018 11:46 pm

      I think this is the beginning of something that will make the OEMs pay attention.

      lightsaber wrote:
      White tails? That depends on the plane. Airbus cannot free up nearterm A350 production slots for sales campaigns. That aircraft is as immune as possible.


      The A350 has several years of production secured with a very blue-chip buyer base. But it is less secure after, say, 2022-23. Lately the 787 is solidly outpacing it in the sales race and if Airbus can't turn that around in the next couple years there could be a cash flow crunch as both the A350 and the A330neo have to reduce production at the same time.

      Boeing is intentionally scheduling 787s whitetails to aid sales campaigns. It is working well for them so far, but in a rapid downturn, Boeing will have it tough, but we are not there yet. Let us see how Farnborough goes.


      They are going to be good for some time if they stay at 12/month, but if they go to 14 next year as planned... "do you feel lucky, punk?" Both Airbus and Boeing sales teams will be very, well, motivated.

      I ignore the A380 and 747 as there production is in the noise, but there will be much pain and cost involved in selling any whitetail.


      Boeing still has a 747-8 passenger white tail that they can't offload, after years of trying. I think it says something Not Good about the 747-8 that Lufthansa hasn't taken it for pennies on the dollar. But they seem to be doing OK selling cargo frames (both white tail and new build), at least in the current market.

      Airbus gave up on selling its A380 white tails, and so far the secondary market has given us a grand total of two sales. I think Airbus knows that it is eating the full cost of any white tail and won't build any.

      Due to huge backlogs, the narrowbody has less risk, mostly with prior generation engines (now being sold a steep discount). E.g., Allegiant picking up more new A320CEOs as they can make the prepayment and rumors on pricing do not bode well for future used CEO and NG values.


      We saw this movie before with the 737 Classic once there had been a few years of NG production. The end is coming for early production NGs and ceos, except maybe for those operated by airlines like Delta that keep them updated, amazingly soon.
       
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      lightsaber
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      Re: HNA and A330 delivery problems.. no money

      Thu Jul 12, 2018 12:10 am

      seabosdca wrote:
      I think this is the beginning of something that will make the OEMs pay attention.

      lightsaber wrote:
      White tails? That depends on the plane. Airbus cannot free up nearterm A350 production slots for sales campaigns. That aircraft is as immune as possible.


      The A350 has several years of production secured with a very blue-chip buyer base. But it is less secure after, say, 2022-23. Lately the 787 is solidly outpacing it in the sales race and if Airbus can't turn that around in the next couple years there could be a cash flow crunch as both the A350 and the A330neo have to reduce production at the same time.

      Boeing is intentionally scheduling 787s whitetails to aid sales campaigns. It is working well for them so far, but in a rapid downturn, Boeing will have it tough, but we are not there yet. Let us see how Farnborough goes.


      They are going to be good for some time if they stay at 12/month, but if they go to 14 next year as planned... "do you feel lucky, punk?" Both Airbus and Boeing sales teams will be very, well, motivated.

      I ignore the A380 and 747 as there production is in the noise, but there will be much pain and cost involved in selling any whitetail.


      Boeing still has a 747-8 passenger white tail that they can't offload, after years of trying. I think it says something Not Good about the 747-8 that Lufthansa hasn't taken it for pennies on the dollar. But they seem to be doing OK selling cargo frames (both white tail and new build), at least in the current market.

      Airbus gave up on selling its A380 white tails, and so far the secondary market has given us a grand total of two sales. I think Airbus knows that it is eating the full cost of any white tail and won't build any.

      Due to huge backlogs, the narrowbody has less risk, mostly with prior generation engines (now being sold a steep discount). E.g., Allegiant picking up more new A320CEOs as they can make the prepayment and rumors on pricing do not bode well for future used CEO and NG values.


      We saw this movie before with the 737 Classic once there had been a few years of NG production. The end is coming for early production NGs and ceos, except maybe for those operated by airlines like Delta that keep them updated, amazingly soon.

      First, well thought out post.

      I think Airbus will create slots (trade or increase production keeping the A350 backlog strong.

      It is too late for Boeing to slow the 14/month 787 production. They have rolled the dice. What I'm alluding to is they gambled, but I think will do OK.

      I'm surprised to see CEO and NG used and whitetail pricing as soft as indications so soon. It normally takes the market having 20% the new designs, yet we are nowhere close to having multi-thousands of NEO+MAX+A220+E2 yet. That tells me the OEMs have an oversupply situation in narrowbody aircraft, it just won't be obvious for 2+ years. However, new aircraft save enough in fuel and maintenance that we shall see the CEO and NEO take the value hit.

      Where is that popcorn smilie?

      The A330 just has it tough.. Not to mention the A321LR could do quite a few of the A330 routes. This is prior to any alleged 797 too...

      So add this to the IranAir whitetails... Not good for A330 leasing companies....

      Lightsaber
      You only have the first amendment with the 2nd. If you're not going to offend someone with what you say, you don't have the 1st.
       
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      aemoreira1981
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      Re: HNA and A330 delivery problems.. no money

      Thu Jul 12, 2018 12:14 am

      lightsaber wrote:
      $1 billion held. I'm not shocked Airbus will not finance. But ouch... Not needed. But better to have the collateral parked on Airbus land (owned or rented) than in a far off bankruptcy.


      Similar to the Kingfisher A345HGWs. Airbus canceled that order. Two were eventually sold to Hi Fly (one since abandoned), two to AJ Walter (leased to Azerbaijan), and one to Tunisia (later to Turkey).

      As for Delta, do they have any A330ceos on order, or are they interested in any 242t A330ceos beyond what they have now? Another interesting scheme might be to transfer this order to Avolon Aerospace (which HNA owns), instead of the HNA airlines themselves. That's how HNA airlines got some of their Dreamliners - the leases were originally with CIT Aerospace, but once HNA bought the lessor, they became the property of the group. They seem a lot like SAirGroup back in the day.
      Last edited by aemoreira1981 on Thu Jul 12, 2018 12:28 am, edited 1 time in total.
       
      juliuswong
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      Re: HNA and A330 delivery problems.. no money

      Thu Jul 12, 2018 1:25 am

      The matter will get even more complicated now with the chairman passing. Hope HNA Group can hold together, a lot of families depends on them for livelihood.
      - Life is a journey, travel it well -
       
      Lufthansa
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      Re: HNA and A330 delivery problems.. no money

      Thu Jul 12, 2018 1:48 am

      I've always held my doubts about this airline. The Combination of competing with China Southern, Air China and Cathay Pacific all on their home turf is pretty tough, especially considering two of those carriers will not be allowed to fail at any price... and as much as capitalist HKG doesn't agree with such moves I doubt they'd want to lose cathay. That's not really a level playing field. Couple that with the HNA group airlines don't have much brand recognition in foreign markets.
       
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      kanban
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      Re: HNA and A330 delivery problems.. no money

      Thu Jul 12, 2018 3:11 am

      And yet with HNA's problems, they signed for 200 C919 and 100 ARJ21's --- bravado will only get them so far before the payment is due.. I sometimes wonder if some of the large orders we see are merely placeholders to block competitors expansion.. looking at the 737 rates and backlogs I remain skeptical that all will be delivered with out both production hiccups or cancellations and deferrals stretching out 10 or more years.
       
      zakuivcustom
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      Re: HNA and A330 delivery problems.. no money

      Thu Jul 12, 2018 3:16 am

      Lufthansa wrote:
      I've always held my doubts about this airline. The Combination of competing with China Southern, Air China and Cathay Pacific all on their home turf is pretty tough, especially considering two of those carriers will not be allowed to fail at any price... and as much as capitalist HKG doesn't agree with such moves I doubt they'd want to lose cathay. That's not really a level playing field. Couple that with the HNA group airlines don't have much brand recognition in foreign markets.


      If HNA Group simply stayed in aviation business only, they would not be in as big of a hole as they are in right now. HU itself actually make money IIRC.
       
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      lightsaber
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      Re: HNA and A330 delivery problems.. no money

      Thu Jul 12, 2018 3:21 am

      aemoreira1981 wrote:
      [
      Similar to the Kingfisher A345HGWs. Airbus canceled that order. Two were eventually sold to Hi Fly (one since abandoned), two to AJ Walter (leased to Azerbaijan), and one to Tunisia (later to Turkey).


      Good analogy. Now, while Airbus will have to discount any surplus A330CEOs, they will sell.

      Lightsaber
      You only have the first amendment with the 2nd. If you're not going to offend someone with what you say, you don't have the 1st.
       
      juliuswong
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      Re: HNA and A330 delivery problems.. no money

      Thu Jul 12, 2018 4:21 am

      Based on production list, they have 14 A330-343E due for delivery. That's a lot of financial commitment to meet over next few months. Starting with MSN 1840 which took its first flight on 20th Dec 2017. It should have been delivered by now.

      1840 Airbus A330-343 B-1045 Tianjin Airlines On Order F-WWYD
      1843 Airbus A330-343 B-1004 Lucky Air On Order F-WWCI
      1847 Airbus A330-243 B-1043 Capital Airlines On Order F-WWKU
      1849 Airbus A330-343 B- Tianjin Airlines On Order F-WWYE
      1851 Airbus A330-343 B-1014 Lucky Air On Order F-WWYY
      1860 Airbus A330-343 B-1097 Hainan Airlines On Order F-WWYH
      1862 Airbus A330-343 B-1042 Capital Airlines On Order F-WWKY
      1863 Airbus A330-343 B-LHF Hong Kong Airlines On Order F-WWKI
      1855 Airbus A330-343 B-1048 Hainan Airlines On Order F-WWCK
      1865 Airbus A330-343 B-LHG Hong Kong Airlines On Order F-WWCY
      1871 Airbus A330-343 B- Hainan Airlines On Order F-WWKV
      1874 Airbus A330-343 B- Hong Kong Airlines On Order F-WWYI
      1875 Airbus A330-343 B-1098 Hainan Airlines On Order F-WWCH
      1880 Airbus A330-343 B- Capital Airlines On Order F-WWYJ
      - Life is a journey, travel it well -
       
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      seabosdca
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      Re: HNA and A330 delivery problems.. no money

      Thu Jul 12, 2018 5:28 am

      Boeing may need to perk its ears up too. There are eight 787-9s due for delivery directly to Hainan in the remainder of 2018, with another two headed to BOC for lease to Hainan. There are also at least three further 787-9s due for delivery in early 2019.
       
      MD80MKE
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      Re: HNA and A330 delivery problems.. no money

      Thu Jul 12, 2018 5:48 am

      seabosdca wrote:
      Boeing may need to perk its ears up too. There are eight 787-9s due for delivery directly to Hainan in the remainder of 2018, with another two headed to BOC for lease to Hainan. There are also at least three further 787-9s due for delivery in early 2019.


      Fair point. But interesting enough, Hainan Airlines’ 737 (NG and MAX) deliveires were not affected. They took delivery of 8 737s in the first half of 2018. Do we know why they still take Boeing’s but can’t take a single A330 or A320neo?
       
      Planesmart
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      Re: HNA and A330 delivery problems.. no money

      Thu Jul 12, 2018 9:42 am

      Orders placed years in advance of the model flying, or even years before production is scheduled, should be prefaced by the word 'qualified'.

      For example, all 777X and many A330NEO orders are qualified. Orders are subject to finance (in fine print, 'on terms acceptable to the customer') and performance.

      Boeing is negotiating to have some X orders go unqualified, but when the WB market is soft, customers say, make it worth my while. Performance claims, and more importantly penalties for missing, become more ambitious and expensive respectively.

      The OEM's can offer finance as lender of last resort, but the Catch 22, is still on terms acceptable to the customer. A customer that wants or has to defer or cancel, can set the bar so low, the OEM is better off not to build.

      In a soft market, customers demand more generous terms and conditions when switching from qualified to unqualified, which is right where A & B find themselves today, with a model each.

      Move the bar down on one model, and it creates expectations on all the others.
       
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      RobK
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      Re: HNA and A330 delivery problems.. no money

      Thu Jul 12, 2018 11:24 am

      seabosdca wrote:
      Boeing may need to perk its ears up too. There are eight 787-9s due for delivery directly to Hainan in the remainder of 2018, with another two headed to BOC for lease to Hainan. There are also at least three further 787-9s due for delivery in early 2019.


      HNA Group also has a huge number of 737NGs and Maxes due before the end of the year for Hainan and Suparna. A sizeable amount of the remaining NGs are destined for them. 14 A330s awaiting payment at TLS is a bit concerning..
       
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      Polot
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      Re: HNA and A330 delivery problems.. no money

      Thu Jul 12, 2018 1:16 pm

      Interestingly HNA is strongly thought to be behind the UFO 15 A350 order placed a few months back (they do have a known and announced “preliminary agreement” for 15). How many 787s and A320neos has HNA taken delivery of this year, if any? They may be choosing to prioritize new generation jets over older gen ones. There is of course a difference between having no money and not enough money to afford everything you bought.
       
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      lightsaber
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      Re: HNA and A330 delivery problems.. no money

      Thu Jul 12, 2018 1:33 pm

      Planesmart wrote:
      Move the bar down on one model, and it creates expectations on all the others.


      It does create a slippery slope and could trigger most favored clauses.

      For prior generation aircraft, it is a tough market. We might see more carpet failing inspection. :duck:

      I believe we are in an overproduction phase of the market. On one hand it is good to replace old models, even if old moves up to end of a 12 year lease. The bad is airlines unable to accept delivery. HNA is an extreamely example, but I believe the Chinese air travel market is slowing growth.

      The A330 is in a bind. So is the 777, and prior generation narrowbody aircraft. I wish the lease/value threads would continue. :)

      Lightsaber
      You only have the first amendment with the 2nd. If you're not going to offend someone with what you say, you don't have the 1st.
       
      mffoda
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      Re: HNA and A330 delivery problems.. no money

      Thu Jul 12, 2018 1:39 pm

      here is a piece from reuters on the HNA Group.

      https://ca.reuters.com/article/business ... 12GU-OCABS

      It doesn't look pretty for the group.

      Maybe Wang's fall in southern France wasn't an accident... :scratchchin: :lol:
      harder than woodpecker lips...
       
      NZ321
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      Re: HNA and A330 delivery problems.. no money

      Thu Jul 12, 2018 2:28 pm

      It's starting to look like a real possibility that HNA group and / or some of its subsidiaries could fail. What with EY in the turmoil it is in this could have quite an impact on orders and deliveries across both manufacturers. Will be interesting to see quite how this unfolds.
      Plane mad!
       
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      RobK
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      Re: HNA and A330 delivery problems.. no money

      Thu Jul 12, 2018 3:48 pm

      Polot wrote:
      Interestingly HNA is strongly thought to be behind the UFO 15 A350 order placed a few months back (they do have a known and announced “preliminary agreement” for 15). How many 787s and A320neos has HNA taken delivery of this year, if any? They may be choosing to prioritize new generation jets over older gen ones. There is of course a difference between having no money and not enough money to afford everything you bought.


      Polot : I can't speak for the A320s, but they've not taken any 787s yet this year, although one is not far off being ready for delivery at PAE as I write.

      737s incl Max YTD :

      8 to HU (2 direct, 6 through Bank of Communications Leasing)

      In the next 4 months (to ln # 7250) they are expecting a further 21 frames split between HU, UQ, 9H and Y8, most of which are through lessors with Everbright Financial Leasing having the bulk of them.
       
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      lightsaber
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      Re: HNA and A330 delivery problems.. no money

      Thu Jul 12, 2018 4:16 pm

      RobK wrote:
      Polot wrote:
      Interestingly HNA is strongly thought to be behind the UFO 15 A350 order placed a few months back (they do have a known and announced “preliminary agreement” for 15). How many 787s and A320neos has HNA taken delivery of this year, if any? They may be choosing to prioritize new generation jets over older gen ones. There is of course a difference between having no money and not enough money to afford everything you bought.


      Polot : I can't speak for the A320s, but they've not taken any 787s yet this year, although one is not far off being ready for delivery at PAE as I write.

      737s incl Max YTD :

      8 to HU (2 direct, 6 through Bank of Communications Leasing)

      In the next 4 months (to ln # 7250) they are expecting a further 21 frames split between HU, UQ, 9H and Y8, most of which are through lessors with Everbright Financial Leasing having the bulk of them.

      Everbright is state owned and doesn't seem to have any profit mandate. So I speculate those orders are safe.

      Lightsaber
      You only have the first amendment with the 2nd. If you're not going to offend someone with what you say, you don't have the 1st.
       
      ScottB
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      Re: HNA and A330 delivery problems.. no money

      Thu Jul 12, 2018 5:43 pm

      kanban wrote:
      And yet with HNA's problems, they signed for 200 C919 and 100 ARJ21's


      That order for C919 and ARJ21 is precisely due to the financial problems of HNA Group. The government agreed to have state-controlled enterprises (i.e. banks, fuel suppliers, airports, etc.) ease up on past-due payments from HNA in exchange for a high-profile order for two troubled state-controlled aircraft programs. I don't exactly see the point given that anyone with half a brain can see the quid pro quo associated with those orders but in China maintaining appearances is everything.
       
      Planesmart
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      Re: HNA and A330 delivery problems.. no money

      Thu Jul 12, 2018 10:48 pm

      lightsaber wrote:
      Planesmart wrote:
      Move the bar down on one model, and it creates expectations on all the others.


      It does create a slippery slope and could trigger most favored clauses.

      For prior generation aircraft, it is a tough market. We might see more carpet failing inspection. :duck:

      I believe we are in an overproduction phase of the market. On one hand it is good to replace old models, even if old moves up to end of a 12 year lease. The bad is airlines unable to accept delivery. HNA is an extreamely example, but I believe the Chinese air travel market is slowing growth.

      The A330 is in a bind. So is the 777, and prior generation narrowbody aircraft. I wish the lease/value threads would continue. :)

      Lightsaber

      The air frame and engine OEM's are in a bind. In one respect, they are keen for the replacement cycle to accelerate, as sales will increase (providing they can supply in a timely manner). However, the financial bar is rising, so the number of customers capable / able to afford to stay the distance diminishes, resulting in a concentration of power amongst fewer customers and leasors.

      We have five power bases in the industry - customers (some have increasing power - many decreasing), air frame and engine OEM's (power decrease compared to 2-3 decades ago), finance including leasors (increasing - margins and credit assessments determine which airlines will prosper / survive), alliances (the smallest has the biggest plans, like information and capacity sharing, carbon credit trading, etc) and JV's (everyone wants to play with EK, despite what CEO's say in public).

      Massive industry rationalisation approaches, which today we would argue is impossible due to anti-competitive legislation. But watch this space.

      Back to the subject.

      China is a powerful wild card, with a long memory, and politically stable for the forseeable future. What does / doesn't happen to major Chinese businesses, is ultimately determined by political will.
       
      juliuswong
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      Re: HNA and A330 delivery problems.. no money

      Fri Jul 13, 2018 1:13 am

      Sorry guys, I missed out MSN 1866 destined for Lucky Air. Amended the list below. That makes a total of 15 A330ceo waiting to financial arrangement.

      Kind of worried the 15 A350 order might not come through. HNA Group have been selling off assets accumulated over the past five years to pare down debt however it is being outpaced with short, mid and long term financial obligation.

      In a hindsight, aren't we glad that the heavily rumoured 60 A330ceo order by China Central Government two or three years back didn't materialised?

      juliuswong wrote:
      Based on production list, they have 14 A330-343E due for delivery. That's a lot of financial commitment to meet over next few months. Starting with MSN 1840 which took its first flight on 20th Dec 2017. It should have been delivered by now.

      1840 Airbus A330-343 B-1045 Tianjin Airlines On Order F-WWYD
      1843 Airbus A330-343 B-1004 Lucky Air On Order F-WWCI
      1847 Airbus A330-243 B-1043 Capital Airlines On Order F-WWKU
      1849 Airbus A330-343 B- Tianjin Airlines On Order F-WWYE
      1851 Airbus A330-343 B-1014 Lucky Air On Order F-WWYY
      1855 Airbus A330-343 B-1048 Hainan Airlines On Order F-WWCK
      1860 Airbus A330-343 B-1097 Hainan Airlines On Order F-WWYH
      1862 Airbus A330-343 B-1042 Capital Airlines On Order F-WWKY
      1863 Airbus A330-343 B-LHF Hong Kong Airlines On Order F-WWKI
      1865 Airbus A330-343 B-LHG Hong Kong Airlines On Order F-WWCY
      1866 Airbus A330-343 B- Lucky Air On Order F-WWYM
      1871 Airbus A330-343 B- Hainan Airlines On Order F-WWKV
      1874 Airbus A330-343 B- Hong Kong Airlines On Order F-WWYI
      1875 Airbus A330-343 B-1098 Hainan Airlines On Order F-WWCH
      1880 Airbus A330-343 B- Capital Airlines On Order F-WWYJ
      - Life is a journey, travel it well -
       
      lutfi
      Posts: 762
      Joined: Wed Sep 27, 2000 6:33 pm

      Re: HNA and A330 delivery problems.. no money

      Fri Jul 13, 2018 3:45 am

      Engine OEMs have seen a large power increase vs 20-30 years ago. Growth of single source for engine choices, and it is now rare for a new engine not to be PBTH, and controlled by the OEM for the entire lifecycle.
       
      Sean-SAN-
      Posts: 786
      Joined: Tue Aug 13, 2002 4:02 pm

      Re: HNA and A330 delivery problems.. no money

      Fri Jul 13, 2018 5:44 am

      HNA is just like any other deadbeat who uses one credit card to pay off another and eventually can't get approved for another card, so the whole thing crashes and you end up taking your belongings to the pawn shop for quick cash.
       
      Planesmart
      Posts: 2891
      Joined: Sun Dec 05, 2004 3:18 am

      Re: HNA and A330 delivery problems.. no money

      Fri Jul 13, 2018 5:54 am

      lutfi wrote:
      Engine OEMs have seen a large power increase vs 20-30 years ago. Growth of single source for engine choices, and it is now rare for a new engine not to be PBTH, and controlled by the OEM for the entire lifecycle.

      They experienced a power blip, but not now.

      Major customers are insisting on 'cradle to grave' pricing for engine, PBTH, PiP's, etc.

      Engine exclusivity used to mean more pricing freedom (= wider margin) for air frame and engine OEM's, even to the point of playing bad and good guy, sharing margins and pain.

      Airlines and leasors will never permit an A340 repetition.
       
      c933103
      Posts: 2895
      Joined: Wed May 18, 2016 7:23 pm

      Re: HNA and A330 delivery problems.. no money

      Tue Jul 17, 2018 4:20 pm

      kanban wrote:
      And yet with HNA's problems, they signed for 200 C919 and 100 ARJ21's --- bravado will only get them so far before the payment is due.. I sometimes wonder if some of the large orders we see are merely placeholders to block competitors expansion.. looking at the 737 rates and backlogs I remain skeptical that all will be delivered with out both production hiccups or cancellations and deferrals stretching out 10 or more years.

      C919/ARJ21 orders requires no upfront payment "because price haven't been fixed yet". They're ordered to politically help gain loan and support from other Chinese governmental entities
       
      juliuswong
      Posts: 1105
      Joined: Wed Dec 14, 2016 3:22 am

      Re: HNA and A330 delivery problems.. no money

      Tue Jul 24, 2018 4:34 am

      juliuswong wrote:
      Sorry guys, I missed out MSN 1866 destined for Lucky Air. Amended the list below. That makes a total of 15 A330ceo waiting to financial arrangement.

      Kind of worried the 15 A350 order might not come through. HNA Group have been selling off assets accumulated over the past five years to pare down debt however it is being outpaced with short, mid and long term financial obligation.

      In a hindsight, aren't we glad that the heavily rumoured 60 A330ceo order by China Central Government two or three years back didn't materialised?

      juliuswong wrote:
      Based on production list, they have 14 A330-343E due for delivery. That's a lot of financial commitment to meet over next few months. Starting with MSN 1840 which took its first flight on 20th Dec 2017. It should have been delivered by now.

      1840 Airbus A330-343 B-1045 Tianjin Airlines On Order F-WWYD
      1843 Airbus A330-343 B-1004 Lucky Air On Order F-WWCI
      1847 Airbus A330-243 B-1043 Capital Airlines On Order F-WWKU
      1849 Airbus A330-343 B- Tianjin Airlines On Order F-WWYE
      1851 Airbus A330-343 B-1014 Lucky Air On Order F-WWYY
      1855 Airbus A330-343 B-1048 Hainan Airlines On Order F-WWCK
      1860 Airbus A330-343 B-1097 Hainan Airlines On Order F-WWYH
      1862 Airbus A330-343 B-1042 Capital Airlines On Order F-WWKY
      1863 Airbus A330-343 B-LHF Hong Kong Airlines On Order F-WWKI
      1865 Airbus A330-343 B-LHG Hong Kong Airlines On Order F-WWCY
      1866 Airbus A330-343 B- Lucky Air On Order F-WWYM
      1871 Airbus A330-343 B- Hainan Airlines On Order F-WWKV
      1874 Airbus A330-343 B- Hong Kong Airlines On Order F-WWYI
      1875 Airbus A330-343 B-1098 Hainan Airlines On Order F-WWCH
      1880 Airbus A330-343 B- Capital Airlines On Order F-WWYJ


      Update: MSN 1840 Airbus A330-343 B-1045 Tianjin Airlines is delivered last week to Tianjin, balance 14 A330 to be cleared.

      Some of them are currently stored at Lourdes:
      1843 Airbus A330-343 B-1004 Lucky Air On Order F-WWCI
      Image

      1847 Airbus A330-243 B-1043 Capital Airlines On Order F-WWKU
      Image
      - Life is a journey, travel it well -
       
      juliuswong
      Posts: 1105
      Joined: Wed Dec 14, 2016 3:22 am

      Re: HNA and A330 delivery problems.. no money

      Mon Aug 13, 2018 1:22 am

      Update: MSN 1843 Airbus A330-343 B-1004 Lucky Air On Order F-WWCI has been delivered, ferried TLS-KMG 10. - 11. Aug 2018 on delivery
      - Life is a journey, travel it well -
       
      EBT
      Posts: 46
      Joined: Tue Mar 27, 2018 1:04 am

      Re: HNA and A330 delivery problems.. no money

      Mon Aug 13, 2018 1:43 am

      One way or another, these aircraft will be delivered. A number of them were originally ordered by Avolon and a couple of others of those are going onto Avolon's books through sale and leasebacks. HNA has become notorious for taking their time to pay, but pay they do, the aircraft gets delivered and it's no longer a problem for Airbus.

      It's a non-sequitur, but worth saying that for the last 10 years the best thing to have happened to the A330 in keeping it alive is all the problems with the 787. Now, it's the Trent 1000 issue that is once giving their lease rates and values a temporary bump.
       
      User avatar
      hongkongflyer
      Posts: 551
      Joined: Tue Oct 28, 2014 8:23 am

      Re: HNA and A330 delivery problems.. no money

      Mon Aug 13, 2018 2:52 am

      Sean-SAN- wrote:
      HNA is just like any other deadbeat who uses one credit card to pay off another and eventually can't get approved for another card, so the whole thing crashes and you end up taking your belongings to the pawn shop for quick cash.


      No, their financial difficulties is mainly due to the request of PRC Government to banks in China not to provide financing to their overseas acquisition projects as they want to slow down HNA Group's growth rate to a more health rate and concentrate on aviation related businesses.
      That's why HNA Group has ceased many overseas acquisitions and selling some of them to others.

      In addition, PRC Government has expressed that they will (or request banks) to provide financial suppport to their aviation businesses.

      So those who don't understand HNA's situation and think they will collapse soon is completely wrong.
       
      juliuswong
      Posts: 1105
      Joined: Wed Dec 14, 2016 3:22 am

      Re: HNA and A330 delivery problems.. no money

      Wed Aug 15, 2018 3:26 am

      Update:
      MSN 1849 Airbus A330-343 Tianjin Airlines On Order F-WWYE is now delivered as B-302D First in service 2 Aug 2018 TSN-KMG-TSN after cabin config & paint ex B-005E

      12 more A330 to clear.

      1847 Airbus A330-243 B-1043 Capital Airlines On Order F-WWKU
      1851 Airbus A330-343 B-1014 Lucky Air On Order F-WWYY
      1855 Airbus A330-343 B-1048 Hainan Airlines On Order F-WWCK
      1860 Airbus A330-343 B-1097 Hainan Airlines On Order F-WWYH
      1862 Airbus A330-343 B-1042 Capital Airlines On Order F-WWKY
      1863 Airbus A330-343 B-LHF Hong Kong Airlines On Order F-WWKI
      1865 Airbus A330-343 B-LHG Hong Kong Airlines On Order F-WWCY
      1866 Airbus A330-343 B- Lucky Air On Order F-WWYM
      1871 Airbus A330-343 B- Hainan Airlines On Order F-WWKV
      1874 Airbus A330-343 B- Hong Kong Airlines On Order F-WWYI
      1875 Airbus A330-343 B-1098 Hainan Airlines On Order F-WWCH
      1880 Airbus A330-343 B- Capital Airlines On Order F-WWYJ
      - Life is a journey, travel it well -
       
      MD80MKE
      Posts: 168
      Joined: Thu Sep 29, 2016 2:26 am

      Re: HNA and A330 delivery problems.. no money

      Wed Aug 15, 2018 6:31 am

      juliuswong wrote:
      Update:
      MSN 1849 Airbus A330-343 Tianjin Airlines On Order F-WWYE is now delivered as B-302D First in service 2 Aug 2018 TSN-KMG-TSN after cabin config & paint ex B-005E

      12 more A330 to clear.

      1847 Airbus A330-243 B-1043 Capital Airlines On Order F-WWKU
      1851 Airbus A330-343 B-1014 Lucky Air On Order F-WWYY
      1855 Airbus A330-343 B-1048 Hainan Airlines On Order F-WWCK
      1860 Airbus A330-343 B-1097 Hainan Airlines On Order F-WWYH
      1862 Airbus A330-343 B-1042 Capital Airlines On Order F-WWKY
      1863 Airbus A330-343 B-LHF Hong Kong Airlines On Order F-WWKI
      1865 Airbus A330-343 B-LHG Hong Kong Airlines On Order F-WWCY
      1866 Airbus A330-343 B- Lucky Air On Order F-WWYM
      1871 Airbus A330-343 B- Hainan Airlines On Order F-WWKV
      1874 Airbus A330-343 B- Hong Kong Airlines On Order F-WWYI
      1875 Airbus A330-343 B-1098 Hainan Airlines On Order F-WWCH
      1880 Airbus A330-343 B- Capital Airlines On Order F-WWYJ

      MSN 1855 has obviously been delivered last month. It's been in service since Aug 3.
      https://www.flightradar24.com/data/aircraft/b-1048
       
      juliuswong
      Posts: 1105
      Joined: Wed Dec 14, 2016 3:22 am

      Re: HNA and A330 delivery problems.. no money

      Wed Aug 15, 2018 6:39 am

      MD80MKE wrote:
      juliuswong wrote:
      Update:
      MSN 1849 Airbus A330-343 Tianjin Airlines On Order F-WWYE is now delivered as B-302D First in service 2 Aug 2018 TSN-KMG-TSN after cabin config & paint ex B-005E

      12 more A330 to clear.

      1847 Airbus A330-243 B-1043 Capital Airlines On Order F-WWKU
      1851 Airbus A330-343 B-1014 Lucky Air On Order F-WWYY
      1860 Airbus A330-343 B-1097 Hainan Airlines On Order F-WWYH
      1862 Airbus A330-343 B-1042 Capital Airlines On Order F-WWKY
      1863 Airbus A330-343 B-LHF Hong Kong Airlines On Order F-WWKI
      1865 Airbus A330-343 B-LHG Hong Kong Airlines On Order F-WWCY
      1866 Airbus A330-343 B- Lucky Air On Order F-WWYM
      1871 Airbus A330-343 B- Hainan Airlines On Order F-WWKV
      1874 Airbus A330-343 B- Hong Kong Airlines On Order F-WWYI
      1875 Airbus A330-343 B-1098 Hainan Airlines On Order F-WWCH
      1880 Airbus A330-343 B- Capital Airlines On Order F-WWYJ

      MSN 1855 has obviously been delivered last month. It's been in service since Aug 3.
      https://www.flightradar24.com/data/aircraft/b-1048

      Thanks MD80MKE for the update. Sorry, I didn't cross check with my list. Yes, 1855 has been delivered, leaving 11 A330 are waiting to be cleared.

      MSN 1855 Airbus A330-343 B-1048 Hainan Airlines Ferried TLS-HAK 27. - 28. Jul 2018 on delivery.

      The system loaded another A330-343E in production line:
      1896 Airbus A330-343 B- Hainan Airlines On Order F-WWCR
      - Life is a journey, travel it well -
       
      Waterbomber
      Posts: 785
      Joined: Sat Jul 09, 2016 11:51 am

      Re: HNA and A330 delivery problems.. no money

      Wed Aug 15, 2018 6:41 am

      juliuswong wrote:


      1847 Airbus A330-243 B-1043 Capital Airlines On Order F-WWKU
      1855 Airbus A330-343 B-1048 Hainan Airlines On Order F-WWCK


      These regs probably reflect Airbus sentiment very nicely. It's no fun to have their cash flow restricted.
       
      juliuswong
      Posts: 1105
      Joined: Wed Dec 14, 2016 3:22 am

      Re: HNA and A330 delivery problems.. no money

      Wed Aug 15, 2018 6:46 am

      Waterbomber wrote:
      juliuswong wrote:


      1847 Airbus A330-243 B-1043 Capital Airlines On Order F-WWKU
      1855 Airbus A330-343 B-1048 Hainan Airlines On Order F-WWCK


      These regs probably reflect Airbus sentiment very nicely. It's no fun to have their cash flow restricted.

      Hahaha, I am wondering how many more A330 is due for HNA Group?! Seems like no ending....
      - Life is a journey, travel it well -
       
      mjoelnir
      Posts: 7765
      Joined: Sun Feb 03, 2013 11:06 pm

      Re: HNA and A330 delivery problems.. no money

      Wed Aug 15, 2018 10:11 am

      juliuswong wrote:
      Waterbomber wrote:
      juliuswong wrote:


      1847 Airbus A330-243 B-1043 Capital Airlines On Order F-WWKU
      1855 Airbus A330-343 B-1048 Hainan Airlines On Order F-WWCK


      These regs probably reflect Airbus sentiment very nicely. It's no fun to have their cash flow restricted.

      Hahaha, I am wondering how many more A330 is due for HNA Group?! Seems like no ending....


      I think that you can add one for Hainan MSN1896 and that is it. It is also debatable how many frames off this list of 11 frames are delayed. The highest MSN number delivered is MSN1882 for Level. Some are obvious delayed, but we do not know the delivery plan and frames outfitted in TSN need extra time compared to their MSN.

      The highest delivered MSN for China Eastern is MSN1869 and MSN1873 is undelivered. Shenzhen has 1879 and 1889 undelivered.

      Two A330 for airlines in the Hainan group have been delivered this month, MSN1849 for Tianjin and MSN1843 for Lucky.
       
      juliuswong
      Posts: 1105
      Joined: Wed Dec 14, 2016 3:22 am

      Re: HNA and A330 delivery problems.. no money

      Thu Aug 16, 2018 12:40 am

      mjoelnir wrote:
      juliuswong wrote:
      Waterbomber wrote:

      These regs probably reflect Airbus sentiment very nicely. It's no fun to have their cash flow restricted.

      Hahaha, I am wondering how many more A330 is due for HNA Group?! Seems like no ending....


      I think that you can add one for Hainan MSN1896 and that is it. It is also debatable how many frames off this list of 11 frames are delayed. The highest MSN number delivered is MSN1882 for Level. Some are obvious delayed, but we do not know the delivery plan and frames outfitted in TSN need extra time compared to their MSN.

      The highest delivered MSN for China Eastern is MSN1869 and MSN1873 is undelivered. Shenzhen has 1879 and 1889 undelivered.

      Two A330 for airlines in the Hainan group have been delivered this month, MSN1849 for Tianjin and MSN1843 for Lucky.

      The first six MSN were the ones hold up by Airbus due to financial crunch at HNA Group. Those are already built and were spotted at TLS during a ceremony to present Airbus’s smallest new jet A220. The later MSN should be delivered sequentially without problem, provided financial arrangement has been put in place.

      According to this article dated last month, HNA Group has another 10 A333 due for Hong Kong Airlines.
      - Life is a journey, travel it well -
       
      juliuswong
      Posts: 1105
      Joined: Wed Dec 14, 2016 3:22 am

      Re: HNA and A330 delivery problems.. no money

      Thu Oct 25, 2018 7:40 am

      An update 25th Oct 2018:

      1847 Airbus A330-243 B-1043 Capital Airlines On Order F-WWKU-> delivered 28 September 2018
      1851 Airbus A330-343 B-1014 Lucky Air On Order F-WWYY-> delivered 24 October 2018
      1855 Airbus A330-343 B-1048 Hainan Airlines On Order F-WWCK-> delivered 26 July 2018
      1860 Airbus A330-343 B-1097 Hainan Airlines On Order F-WWYH -> delivered to TSN 09 April 2018 for cabin outfitting
      1862 Airbus A330-343 B-1042 Capital Airlines On Order F-WWKY
      1863 Airbus A330-343 B-LHF Hong Kong Airlines On Order F-WWKI
      1865 Airbus A330-343 B-LHG Hong Kong Airlines On Order F-WWCY
      1866 Airbus A330-343 B- Lucky Air On Order F-WWYM
      1871 Airbus A330-343 B-1096 Hainan Airlines On Order F-WWKV
      1874 Airbus A330-343 B-LHH Hong Kong Airlines On Order F-WWYI
      1875 Airbus A330-343 B-1098 Hainan Airlines On Order F-WWCH
      1880 Airbus A330-343 B- Capital Airlines On Order F-WWYJ
      1893 Airbus A330-343 B-304L Hainan Airlines On Order F-WWCO
      1896 Airbus A330-343 B-303C Hainan Airlines On Order F-WWCR
      1898 Airbus A330-343 B-303Z Hainan Airlines On Order F-WWKD
      1899 Airbus A330-343 B-304K Hainan Airlines On Order F-WWCZ
      1902 Airbus A330-343 B- Hong Kong Airlines On Order F-WWKO
      1907 Airbus A330-343 B- Hong Kong Airlines On Order
      - Life is a journey, travel it well -
       
      User avatar
      seabosdca
      Posts: 5870
      Joined: Sat Sep 01, 2007 8:33 am

      Re: HNA and A330 delivery problems.. no money

      Thu Oct 25, 2018 5:28 pm

      Meanwhile, on the Boeing side, Hainan has taken delivery of 5 of the 8 787-9s scheduled for direct delivery this year. (BOC Leasing has taken delivery of 1 of 2 additional 787-9s for Hainan.)

      LN 723 B-1135 Delivered 28 Sep 2018
      LN 729 B-1133 Delivered 28 Sep 2018
      LN 734 B-1132 Delivered 28 Sep 2018
      LN 745 B-1138 Delivered 28 Sep 2018
      LN 746 B-1140 Delivered 28 Sep 2018
      LN 752 B-? has flown customer acceptance flight, scheduled delivery imminent
      LN 766 B-? scheduled delivery in November
      LN 779 B-? scheduled delivery in December

      There are also three additional 787-9s in the Boeing firing order for early 2019.
       
      tisr123
      Posts: 32
      Joined: Sun Mar 11, 2018 3:12 pm

      Re: HNA and A330 delivery problems.. no money

      Thu Oct 25, 2018 6:12 pm

      juliuswong wrote:
      An update 25th Oct 2018:

      1847 Airbus A330-243 B-1043 Capital Airlines On Order F-WWKU-> delivered 28 September 2018
      1851 Airbus A330-343 B-1014 Lucky Air On Order F-WWYY-> delivered 24 October 2018
      1855 Airbus A330-343 B-1048 Hainan Airlines On Order F-WWCK-> delivered 26 July 2018
      1860 Airbus A330-343 B-1097 Hainan Airlines On Order F-WWYH -> delivered to TSN 09 April 2018 for cabin outfitting
      1862 Airbus A330-343 B-1042 Capital Airlines On Order F-WWKY
      1863 Airbus A330-343 B-LHF Hong Kong Airlines On Order F-WWKI
      1865 Airbus A330-343 B-LHG Hong Kong Airlines On Order F-WWCY
      1866 Airbus A330-343 B- Lucky Air On Order F-WWYM
      1871 Airbus A330-343 B-1096 Hainan Airlines On Order F-WWKV
      1874 Airbus A330-343 B-LHH Hong Kong Airlines On Order F-WWYI
      1875 Airbus A330-343 B-1098 Hainan Airlines On Order F-WWCH
      1880 Airbus A330-343 B- Capital Airlines On Order F-WWYJ
      1893 Airbus A330-343 B-304L Hainan Airlines On Order F-WWCO
      1896 Airbus A330-343 B-303C Hainan Airlines On Order F-WWCR
      1898 Airbus A330-343 B-303Z Hainan Airlines On Order F-WWKD
      1899 Airbus A330-343 B-304K Hainan Airlines On Order F-WWCZ
      1902 Airbus A330-343 B- Hong Kong Airlines On Order F-WWKO
      1907 Airbus A330-343 B- Hong Kong Airlines On Order


      1880 Airbus A330-343 B- Capital Airlines On Order F-WWYJ -> delivered to TSN 21 June 2018 for cabin outfitting
      1893 Airbus A330-343 B-304L Hainan Airlines On Order F-WWCO -> delivered to TSN 10 September 2018 for cabin outfitting

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