Bhoy
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Re: Is A220 still a regional jet?

Thu Jul 12, 2018 9:25 pm

0newair0 wrote:
CRJ = regional jet
ERJ = regional jet
E-Jet E1 = regional jet
E-Jet E2 = regional jet

C Series = Narrowbody
717 = Narrowbody
A318 = Narrowbody

Fuselage width also plays a role in aircraft class.

So how do you define the 5 (at times 6) abreast Avro Regional Jet (née BAe146)? :scratchchin:
 
JoeCanuck
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Re: Is A220 still a regional jet?

Thu Jul 12, 2018 9:43 pm

It depends on the definition of regional. If it's based on distance, Asia has long been using twin aisles for what would be considered regional length routes in N.America. They famously had 747RJ's.

If you're talking aircraft size, I'd say the CSeries has never been regional. The DC-9 and 732 were mainline aircraft, and the smallest CSeries can carry as many passengers...maybe more.

If we're looking around for an across the board definition, under 100 seats and less than 1500nm range, is pretty much my definition.
What the...?
 
0newair0
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Re: Is A220 still a regional jet?

Thu Jul 12, 2018 9:53 pm

Bhoy wrote:
0newair0 wrote:
CRJ = regional jet
ERJ = regional jet
E-Jet E1 = regional jet
E-Jet E2 = regional jet

C Series = Narrowbody
717 = Narrowbody
A318 = Narrowbody

Fuselage width also plays a role in aircraft class.

So how do you define the 5 (at times 6) abreast Avro Regional Jet (née BAe146)? :scratchchin:


It is a regional jet.
That's not how this works! That's not how any of this works!
 
Bhoy
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Re: Is A220 still a regional jet?

Thu Jul 12, 2018 10:01 pm

0newair0 wrote:
Bhoy wrote:
0newair0 wrote:
CRJ = regional jet
ERJ = regional jet
E-Jet E1 = regional jet
E-Jet E2 = regional jet

C Series = Narrowbody
717 = Narrowbody
A318 = Narrowbody

Fuselage width also plays a role in aircraft class.

So how do you define the 5 (at times 6) abreast Avro Regional Jet (née BAe146)? :scratchchin:


It is a regional jet.

I get that, but if you're talking about fuselage width, the Avro is 3.4m wide, and therefore wider than the DC-9/MD-80/717 at 3.1m, which in your words makes it a Narrowbody rather than an RJ.
 
0newair0
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Re: Is A220 still a regional jet?

Thu Jul 12, 2018 10:20 pm

Bhoy wrote:
0newair0 wrote:
Bhoy wrote:
So how do you define the 5 (at times 6) abreast Avro Regional Jet (née BAe146)? :scratchchin:


It is a regional jet.

I get that, but if you're talking about fuselage width, the Avro is 3.4m wide, and therefore wider than the DC-9/MD-80/717 at 3.1m, which in your words makes it a Narrowbody rather than an RJ.


My words say it plays a role in aircraft class. They do not say it determines aircraft class.
That's not how this works! That's not how any of this works!
 
AYVN
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Re: Is A220 still a regional jet?

Thu Jul 12, 2018 10:52 pm

A300B4 would also fit in as regional jet, not much range to be anything else.
 
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XAM2175
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Re: Is A220 still a regional jet?

Thu Jul 12, 2018 11:14 pm

JoeCanuck wrote:
It depends on the definition of regional. If it's based on distance, Asia has long been using twin aisles for what would be considered regional length routes in N.America. They famously had 747RJ's.


No "they" didn't. Certain Asian airlines did however have 747SRs, and latterly 747-400Ds - both models that traded unnecessary range for additional capacity.

Head down the globe a bit too and you'll find Qantas used to bounce 763ERs about on sub-500 mile turns.
 
Pepper456
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Re: Is A220 still a regional jet?

Thu Jul 12, 2018 11:22 pm

No the A220 from LX flies several times to Portugal from ZRH...
Its the same about E190 TP uses this plane to do routes from LIS to some smaller airports in Germany...
For me that planes are narrowbodies...
 
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OA940
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Re: Is A220 still a regional jet?

Thu Jul 12, 2018 11:59 pm

For the last time. The CSeries isn't a regional jet. It's a narrowbody, much like the 717, 737 and A320 families. You can barely consider the E190 and 195 E2 RJs tbh
A350/CSeries = bae
 
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aemoreira1981
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Re: Is A220 still a regional jet?

Fri Jul 13, 2018 12:11 am

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
WPvsMW wrote:
Except by implication of the "C" prefix.


What? C is for Canada.

GF


Actually Canadair, a former Canadian crown corporation that developed aircraft until it was privatized and then sold to Bombardier (whose specialty until then was in snow equipment and mass transit equipment). Bombardier acquired Canadair's major competitor, de Havilland Canada (also ending its run as a crown corporation), later on.

OA940 wrote:
For the last time. The CSeries isn't a regional jet. It's a narrowbody, much like the 717, 737 and A320 families. You can barely consider the E190 and 195 E2 RJs tbh


Both are considered mainline in the USA and Canada. The CSeries is replacing them in Canada, and there isn't much of a secondary market for them (Air Canada upon retirement has sold them to lessors, but a number have been scrapped - AC was the second E190 customer after B6).

As for the A220 - the A220-100 is basically equivalent to an A318/B735/B736, while the A220-300 is equivalent (and a bit higher capacity) to an A319/B733/B3737. The A221 and A223 should be tested for capabilities out of LCY.
Last edited by aemoreira1981 on Fri Jul 13, 2018 12:38 am, edited 3 times in total.
 
axiom
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Re: Is A220 still a regional jet?

Fri Jul 13, 2018 12:22 am

mikejepp wrote:
"Regional Jet" only exists in the minds of management when trying to outsource jobs. Its a marketing term to try to trick pilots into thinking these jobs aren't worth negotiating for.

So what you should be asking is "Is the A220 too big to be outsourced?"... same question, more defined meaning. And the answer is: Yes.



We have an answer, folks!
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: Is A220 still a regional jet?

Fri Jul 13, 2018 1:34 am

It might have been “C” for Canadair when the CRJ was designed, but 27 years on, I doubt Pierre and Friends were thinking “C” for Canadair for this design.

GF
 
Lufthansa
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Re: Is A220 still a regional jet?

Fri Jul 13, 2018 5:20 am

The A220-100 will definitely fly into regional ports. Something we do in Australia is make very cheap stairs that are unadjustable and fixed to a specific aircraft type (though if slightly lower than the door can be used by others). They're manually pushed by foot by a single person rolled up to the door. usually just aluminium with safety gates at the top made of the same material security doors in buildings are made out of. we use them up to A320 sized airframes without an issue. In smaller ports, the a220-100 would be ideal. its performance will get off short runways, yet its got the ability to travel hours, and ground support will be minimal because you will simply double cater it. So a 2 hour flight to a small town... especially an isolated on that air service is essential.... this machine could be put to good use. F100's currently used in the west get weight restricted at times... this wouldn't have that problem. I'd imagine some of northern Sweden and Canada would also have similar challenges, not to mention parts of South Africa. I can see it's performance selling it alone, provided the price is right.
 
vegas005
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Re: Is A220 still a regional jet?

Fri Jul 13, 2018 5:29 am

C Series was purchased by Lufthansa Group to replace the Avro RJ100 and smaller RJ85 which were the prime aircraft in the Swiss regional fleet since the company was founded in 2002.
 
WPvsMW
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Re: Is A220 still a regional jet?

Fri Jul 13, 2018 6:05 am

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
It might have been “C” for Canadair when the CRJ was designed, but 27 years on, I doubt Pierre and Friends were thinking “C” for Canadair for this design.

GF


Here's my logic. Canadair Regional Jet scaled up to CR7 and CR9 (Canadair Regional by implication... for marketing, derived from CRJ-200) scaled up to CSeries. I've never heard anyone refer to a "Canada Regional" 7 or 9. The CR7 was built to meet US scope clauses, and by implication a regional jet, and the CR9 was built for mainline.

Pierre, Sr., like Jr., probably would like the letter C to stand for Canada. Alpha, Bravo, Canada, Delta, ... :cloudnine:
 
BREECH
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Re: Is A220 still a regional jet?

Fri Jul 13, 2018 9:11 am

Metjetceo wrote:
Philosophical Question:
If you have more than 100 seats and you are branded as Airbus, are you still an RJ?

It depends how you define the "region". Say, Yakitia is a region of Russia. It's twice the size of Alaska, has three time zones, and if it was a country, it'd be eigth largest. Crossing it from North to South would make A330 a regional jet. And some people say Siberia is one region...
No friendship, love or respect unite people as much as shared hatred.
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Amiga500
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Re: Is A220 still a regional jet?

Fri Jul 13, 2018 9:18 am

Lufthansa wrote:
The A220-100 will definitely fly into regional ports. Something we do in Australia is make very cheap stairs that are unadjustable and fixed to a specific aircraft type



Oooh - just had a thought - does anyone know if the CSeries has airstairs (or whatever naming equivalent) as an option?

Would be extremely handy for turnaround times.
 
BREECH
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Re: Is A220 still a regional jet?

Fri Jul 13, 2018 12:49 pm

Lufthansa wrote:
The A220-100 will definitely fly into regional ports. Something we do in Australia is make very cheap stairs that are unadjustable and fixed to a specific aircraft type (though if slightly lower than the door can be used by others). They're manually pushed by foot by a single person rolled up to the door.

Gosh, Aussies are so spoiled! Why not go the Ryanair route and just put a blanket on the tarmac! It's not that high!
No friendship, love or respect unite people as much as shared hatred.
Sergey Dovlatov
 
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jfklganyc
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Re: Is A220 still a regional jet?

Fri Jul 13, 2018 1:12 pm

The 717 really was/is a regional jet.

Moreso than the 190 is.

Check out the range on that thing...little wonder it was a dud
 
Pepper456
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Re: Is A220 still a regional jet?

Fri Jul 13, 2018 1:19 pm

Pepper456 wrote:
No the A220 from LX flies several times to Portugal from ZRH...
Its the same about E190 TP uses this plane to do routes from LIS to some smaller airports in Germany...
For me that planes are narrowbodies...

Regional jets are ATR72, ATR42, Q200, Q400 and so on...
 
bmacleod
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Re: Is A220 still a regional jet?

Fri Jul 13, 2018 1:44 pm

Somewhat confused here...I thought Bombardier still owned 50% of C-Series.

Airbus re-branding it as the A220 so did Bombardier give up their name on the aircraft? :confused:
"What good are wings without the courage to fly?" - Atticus
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: Is A220 still a regional jet?

Fri Jul 13, 2018 1:52 pm

No, Pierre Sr, , a Laurent. The CRJ was designed by Canadair, the C-Series by BBD. You might remember the BRJ-X, the original C-Series which was pretty close to the E-175.

GF
Last edited by GalaxyFlyer on Fri Jul 13, 2018 2:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
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Erebus
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Re: Is A220 still a regional jet?

Fri Jul 13, 2018 1:55 pm

bmacleod wrote:
Somewhat confused here...I thought Bombardier still owned 50% of C-Series.

Airbus re-branding it as the A220 so did Bombardier give up their name on the aircraft? :confused:


Bombardier has a 31% stake in the programme. As for the naming, it is a bit like the GE90 being a GE engine despite Snecma having a 24% stake in the programme.
 
Amiga500
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Re: Is A220 still a regional jet?

Fri Jul 13, 2018 2:00 pm

bmacleod wrote:
Somewhat confused here...I thought Bombardier still owned 50% of C-Series.

Airbus re-branding it as the A220 so did Bombardier give up their name on the aircraft? :confused:


Airbus 50.01%
Bombardier ~31%
Quebec ~19%
 
bmacleod
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Re: Is A220 still a regional jet?

Fri Jul 13, 2018 5:07 pm

Erebus wrote:
bmacleod wrote:
Somewhat confused here...I thought Bombardier still owned 50% of C-Series.

Airbus re-branding it as the A220 so did Bombardier give up their name on the aircraft? :confused:


Bombardier has a 31% stake in the programme. As for the naming, it is a bit like the GE90 being a GE engine despite Snecma having a 24% stake in the programme.


Thanks for the info/correction.

Still it's sad to see BBD to basically "throw in the towel" on their most ambitious project/achievement but I fully understand the future of the company/corporation was at stake and difficult decisions had to be made. :white:
"What good are wings without the courage to fly?" - Atticus
 
WPvsMW
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Re: Is A220 still a regional jet?

Fri Jul 13, 2018 5:18 pm

BBD did not throw in the towel. Boeing's power play forced BBD into survival mode and into the arms of Airbus. Now Boeing's problem went up by a power of 10. Boeing is probably out of the small NB mainline market for a decade just as that market booms in less developed countries and in P2P in advanced countries. E-jets aren't winning orders compared to the A-220.
 
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seabosdca
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Re: Is A220 still a regional jet?

Fri Jul 13, 2018 5:21 pm

I think the term is silly and meaningless outside of the US, with its scope clauses.

In the US, it's anything that can be flown by a regional operator, generally with a maximum of 76 seats, and so the A220 is way too big to be a RJ.
 
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RayChuang
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Re: Is A220 still a regional jet?

Fri Jul 13, 2018 5:28 pm

No I do not consider the A220 (CSeries) as a true regional jet. A true regional jet normally has less than 100 seats, and even the A220-100 (CS100) can seat over 100 in normal seating configuration. It will likely fill a niche of longer, "thin" routes of up to 2,700 nautical miles.
 
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FlightLevel360
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Re: Is A220 still a regional jet?

Fri Jul 13, 2018 6:24 pm

flyingclrs727 wrote:
An RJ that can do transcons?


United uses its ERJ-175s on unacceptably long routes
 
danj555
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Re: Is A220 still a regional jet?

Fri Jul 13, 2018 6:45 pm

jplatts wrote:
The A220-300 is clearly considered to be a mainline aircraft since it is similar in seating capacity to the 737-700, A319, and 737 MAX 7. The A220-100 also has a greater seating capacity than the E-175 and CRJ 900 regional jets, and the A220-100 jets are considered to be small mainline jets like DC-9's and 717's are.


I don't think anyone can say that. It was officially shot down in international court that the MAX 7 and cs300 are not close competition aircraft.
 
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DL717
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Re: Is A220 still a regional jet?

Fri Jul 13, 2018 6:50 pm

Its appropriate to call it what it is. A DC-9 replacement. It is not a regional jet. Regional jets when they came into service were aircraft below 100 seats optimized for destinations within a 1 1/2 hour flight time radius. The target was turboprop replacement with better range, comfort was hardly a concern. It was only after the larger variants were introduced with better range that they started killing us with these things (CRJs) on long thin routes. The E-Jet, while being in the regional jet class from a capacity perspective, is more a sub 100 seat capacity mainline aircraft optimized for long thin routes, it is in fact a hybrid between an RJ and a mainline aircraft. Its mainline comfort set it aside from the CRJs by leaps and bounds. Its only real competitor was the Dornier 728 program which died an early death.
Everything is chits and giggles until you get old enough to giggle and then you chit.
 
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DL717
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Re: Is A220 still a regional jet?

Fri Jul 13, 2018 6:54 pm

jfklganyc wrote:
The 717 really was/is a regional jet.

Moreso than the 190 is.

Check out the range on that thing...little wonder it was a dud


They offered a longer range variant, but it was too late to help the program.

danj555 wrote:
jplatts wrote:
The A220-300 is clearly considered to be a mainline aircraft since it is similar in seating capacity to the 737-700, A319, and 737 MAX 7. The A220-100 also has a greater seating capacity than the E-175 and CRJ 900 regional jets, and the A220-100 jets are considered to be small mainline jets like DC-9's and 717's are.


I don't think anyone can say that. It was officially shot down in international court that the MAX 7 and cs300 are not close competition aircraft.


LOL.
Everything is chits and giggles until you get old enough to giggle and then you chit.
 
JoeCanuck
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Re: Is A220 still a regional jet?

Fri Jul 13, 2018 6:57 pm

seabosdca wrote:
I think the term is silly and meaningless outside of the US, with its scope clauses.

In the US, it's anything that can be flown by a regional operator, generally with a maximum of 76 seats, and so the A220 is way too big to be a RJ.


I think you summed it up pretty well. I'm not even sure the term is used outside of the N.America.

danj555 wrote:

I don't think anyone can say that. It was officially shot down in international court that the MAX 7 and cs300 are not close competition aircraft.


Actually, they decided that the CS100, not the 300, wasn't in competition with the MAX7.
What the...?
 
bzcat
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Re: Is A220 still a regional jet?

Fri Jul 13, 2018 7:09 pm

Pepper456 wrote:
Pepper456 wrote:
No the A220 from LX flies several times to Portugal from ZRH...
Its the same about E190 TP uses this plane to do routes from LIS to some smaller airports in Germany...
For me that planes are narrowbodies...

Regional jets are ATR72, ATR42, Q200, Q400 and so on...


Have you seen an ATR? Or Q-400? They are not jets.
 
MRYapproach
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Re: Is A220 still a regional jet?

Fri Jul 13, 2018 7:56 pm

0newair0 wrote:
CRJ = regional jet
ERJ = regional jet
E-Jet E1 = regional jet
E-Jet E2 = regional jet

C Series = Narrowbody
717 = Narrowbody
A318 = Narrowbody

Fuselage width also plays a role in aircraft class.


Works for me!

IMO, RJs have their engines on the fuselage. Mainline airfreight carry their engines under the wings. (Yes, I know the MDs are not RJs, but they're quickly becoming irrelevant)

Also, it's personal since I live under the approach to MRY. United just up-gauged from CRJs to E-175s on some SFO-MRY flights. Great seeing real 2-hole jets passing overhead.
 
DarthLobster
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Re: Is A220 still a regional jet?

Fri Jul 13, 2018 7:56 pm

ytz wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:
WPvsMW wrote:
Except by implication of the "C" prefix.


What? C is for Canada.

GF


C is for "Commercial". It was Bombardier's first commercial/mainline jet.


C is for delicious chicken. Mmmmmmm.......

Also, hard to differentiate with the C as their previous jets, the CRJ, also started with C (for Canadair).
 
JoeCanuck
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Re: Is A220 still a regional jet?

Fri Jul 13, 2018 8:20 pm

bzcat wrote:
Pepper456 wrote:
Pepper456 wrote:
No the A220 from LX flies several times to Portugal from ZRH...
Its the same about E190 TP uses this plane to do routes from LIS to some smaller airports in Germany...
For me that planes are narrowbodies...

Regional jets are ATR72, ATR42, Q200, Q400 and so on...


Have you seen an ATR? Or Q-400? They are not jets.


Technically...they are jets. A turboprop is essentially an open rotor, ultra high bypass, jet engine.
What the...?
 
danj555
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Re: Is A220 still a regional jet?

Fri Jul 13, 2018 8:23 pm

JoeCanuck wrote:
seabosdca wrote:
I think the term is silly and meaningless outside of the US, with its scope clauses.

In the US, it's anything that can be flown by a regional operator, generally with a maximum of 76 seats, and so the A220 is way too big to be a RJ.


I think you summed it up pretty well. I'm not even sure the term is used outside of the N.America.

danj555 wrote:

I don't think anyone can say that. It was officially shot down in international court that the MAX 7 and cs300 are not close competition aircraft.


Actually, they decided that the CS100, not the 300, wasn't in competition with the MAX7.



The OP refers to the 300 and the 7 in the same sentence. but I see what youre saying
 
reltney
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Re: Is A220 still a regional jet?

Fri Jul 13, 2018 9:32 pm

a
FATFlyer wrote:
When Boeing changed the MD95 to the 717 designation, they referred to it as a regional jet.
http://boeing.mediaroom.com/1998-01-08-Boeing-Introduces-717-200-Airplane-as-New-Regional-Jet



Well, the DC-8 -61/63 was called a jumbo jet (Flying Tigers had it painted in the fuselage) and the DC-10 started out as the airbus...
The CANABUS will recapture lots of regional jet flying for Delta as the ops department says in our bulitens and news flashes. Call it regional or mainline, as long as it is flown by Delta employees, it doesn't matter.

Cheers
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OUTLAW KNIVES.

I am a pilot, therefore I envy no one...
 
strfyr51
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Re: Is A220 still a regional jet?

Fri Jul 13, 2018 10:17 pm

StTim wrote:
What is a regional jet. There is no such defined term.

The regional Jet Moniker was to differentiate whether it was flown by the Regional airlines ir the Mainline Carriers and it was marketed that way.
No jet flown in mainline service is considered a Regional Jet. Which is why regionals do not fly coast to coast either..
 
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XAM2175
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Re: Is A220 still a regional jet?

Fri Jul 13, 2018 10:28 pm

MRYapproach wrote:
IMO, RJs have their engines on the fuselage. Mainline airfreight carry their engines under the wings. (Yes, I know the MDs are not RJs, but they're quickly becoming irrelevant)

Also, it's personal since I live under the approach to MRY. United just up-gauged from CRJs to E-175s on some SFO-MRY flights. Great seeing real 2-hole jets passing overhead.


BAe 146, latterly the Avro Regional Jet:


Fairchild Dornier 328-300:


Embraer Regional Jet 190, operated on behalf of Lufthansa Regional:

(though granted the Embraer have dropped the regional name, they're still operated in that role)

Mitsubishi Regional Jet:


etc etc etc
 
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flyingclrs727
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Re: Is A220 still a regional jet?

Fri Jul 13, 2018 10:48 pm

jfklganyc wrote:
The 717 really was/is a regional jet.

Moreso than the 190 is.

Check out the range on that thing...little wonder it was a dud


Plus it was heavy compared to th C-Series and other planes that were and are available now to fill its role.
 
WPvsMW
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Re: Is A220 still a regional jet?

Sat Jul 14, 2018 12:44 am

The B712 is a dud? Hardly. It's easier to find a used A380 than a used B712.
 
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seabosdca
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Re: Is A220 still a regional jet?

Sat Jul 14, 2018 5:21 am

FlightLevel360 wrote:
United uses its ERJ-175s on unacceptably long routes


"Unacceptable?" I recently flew a Skywest E75 SEA-DAL and it was perfectly acceptable. Had I not been traveling with family (in which the 2x2 layout forced us to separate), I would have found it just as comfortable as a 737, except that Skywest's FAs don't quite have the polish of Alaska's.
 
Heinkel
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Re: Is A220 still a regional jet?

Sat Jul 14, 2018 7:53 am

StTim wrote:
What is a regional jet. There is no such defined term.


When I was a young boy in 1967, the Boeing 737 was introduced. Lufthansa was launch customer. They called it "City Jet".

So is the B737 a regional jet? At least the B737-100?
 
StTim
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Re: Is A220 still a regional jet?

Sat Jul 14, 2018 8:44 am

I am old enough to remember them being called city jets!
 
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DLHAM
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Re: Is A220 still a regional jet?

Sat Jul 14, 2018 9:34 am

Is a plane with dimensions like an A320 and seating up to 160 a regional jet? (CS300). IMO not!
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Slash787
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Re: Is A220 still a regional jet?

Sat Jul 14, 2018 9:44 am

DLHAM wrote:
Is a plane with dimensions like an A320 and seating up to 160 a regional jet? (CS300). IMO not!


CS100 is a regional jet
CS300 is NOT
 
workhorse
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Re: Is A220 still a regional jet?

Sat Jul 14, 2018 10:13 am

drgmobile wrote:
817Dreamliiner wrote:
Was it ever referred as a regional jet? It's bigger than an Embraer 190/195 And it's often debated whether or not they are Regional jets.


No. Bombardier never called it a regional jet.


Am I the only one here old enough to remember the time when it was called BRJ-X (Bombardier Regional Jet eXpansion)?

https://www.globalsecurity.org/military ... /brj-x.htm

:old:
 
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FlightLevel360
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Re: Is A220 still a regional jet?

Sat Jul 14, 2018 1:26 pm

seabosdca wrote:
FlightLevel360 wrote:
United uses its ERJ-175s on unacceptably long routes


"Unacceptable?" I recently flew a Skywest E75 SEA-DAL and it was perfectly acceptable. Had I not been traveling with family (in which the 2x2 layout forced us to separate), I would have found it just as comfortable as a 737, except that Skywest's FAs don't quite have the polish of Alaska's.


I understand your opinion. However, based on my personal experiences, I do not like the ERJ-170/175 series of aircraft at all. I feel the entire aircraft to be quite cramped (narrow) and the seat pitch to be generally more horrible than mainline aircraft. Furthermore, the seats are supposed to be 18 inches wide, but I felt that it was pretty much the same as United's 737s. In addition, the misaligned windows on 95% of the seats also don't help either.

I do know many people who would go out of their way to fly United's ERJ-175s out of their way over other aircraft, but personally I prefer United mainline.

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