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FA9295
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Delta adds RDU-ORD

Fri Jul 13, 2018 4:55 am

3x daily (2x daily on weekends), Embraer E175. Begins April 2, 2019
https://www.routesonline.com/news/38/ai ... pril-2019/
Last edited by FA9295 on Fri Jul 13, 2018 5:21 am, edited 1 time in total.
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SFOtoORD
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Re: Delta adds RDU-ORD

Fri Jul 13, 2018 5:22 am

Interesting as we’ve always heard DL has gate space issues at ORD. Surprising this came before SEA-ORD although I suspect those yields aren’t great.
 
panamair
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Re: Delta adds RDU-ORD

Fri Jul 13, 2018 5:35 am

SFOtoORD wrote:
Surprising this came before SEA-ORD although I suspect those yields aren’t great.


DL already serves SEA-ORD, up to 3x a day on the A319 during summer peak.
 
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Amwest2United
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Re: Delta adds RDU-ORD

Fri Jul 13, 2018 5:38 am

SFOtoORD wrote:
Interesting as we’ve always heard DL has gate space issues at ORD. Surprising this came before SEA-ORD although I suspect those yields aren’t great.


DL flies 3x daily ORD-SEA already..
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ILS28ORD
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Re: Delta adds RDU-ORD

Fri Jul 13, 2018 6:06 am

Nice. I'm surprised this happened before LAX-ORD though.
 
TWA1985
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Re: Delta adds RDU-ORD

Fri Jul 13, 2018 6:18 am

Cue the Delta is making ORD a hub and/or focus city posts now ... :lol:
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TWA1985
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Re: Delta adds RDU-ORD

Fri Jul 13, 2018 6:20 am

And I wonder if / how American will respond ...
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rajincajun01
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Re: Delta adds RDU-ORD

Fri Jul 13, 2018 6:22 am

DL continues to eat into AA at RDU. They've added LAX, PHL, MIA (seasonal), DCA, CDG (competes with LHR), and now ORD in their build up at RDU. Also begin mainline on LGA this fall. Wouldn't be surprised if DFW is next.
 
77H
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Re: Delta adds RDU-ORD

Fri Jul 13, 2018 6:39 am

How many markets now does DL consider focus cities?

AA and UA may want to consider their hub only approach while there’s still markets that can support a viable focus city. At some point WN, the ULCCs and DL will have market penetration too strong for AA and UA to get a foothold. WN, the ULCCs and DL are all quite profitable while AA and UA underperform relative to peers and potential.

77H
 
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usdcaguy
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Re: Delta adds RDU-ORD

Fri Jul 13, 2018 6:59 am

77H wrote:
How many markets now does DL consider focus cities?

AA and UA may want to consider their hub only approach while there’s still markets that can support a viable focus city. At some point WN, the ULCCs and DL will have market penetration too strong for AA and UA to get a foothold. WN, the ULCCs and DL are all quite profitable while AA and UA underperform relative to peers and potential.

77H


The difference here being that DL lacks the footprint in PHL, ORD, EWR (LGA/JFK is for others), DCA and SFO that AA/UA have. Their big hubs at ATL/DTW/MSP simply do not have the same O&D demand. They also have no Texas hub. As a result, DL has had to fill in with nonstops where possible if it wants business in major tech cities like RDU or AUS.
 
compensateme
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Re: Delta adds RDU-ORD

Fri Jul 13, 2018 7:10 am

usdcaguy wrote:
The difference here being that DL lacks the footprint in PHL, ORD, EWR (LGA/JFK is for others), DCA and SFO that AA/UA have. Their big hubs at ATL/DTW/MSP simply do not have the same O&D demand. They also have no Texas hub. As a result, DL has had to fill in with nonstops where possible if it wants business in major tech cities like RDU or AUS.


Another manufactured a.net myth (“fake news”) that’s repeated endlessly. DL carries significantly more local passengers at ATL as AA at DFW and similar number at DTW and SLC as AA at ORD and CLT, respectively. ATL, DTW and MSP are also higher-yielding than DFW or ORD. Sometimes it’s good to be #1, rather than competing and splitting a market...
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phluser
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Re: Delta adds RDU-ORD

Fri Jul 13, 2018 7:28 am

rajincajun01 wrote:
DL continues to eat into AA at RDU. They've added LAX, PHL, MIA (seasonal), DCA, CDG (competes with LHR), and now ORD in their build up at RDU. Also begin mainline on LGA this fall. Wouldn't be surprised if DFW is next.


DL's RDU-ORD is also a challenge to UA and WN also that have n/s to ORD and MDW respectively. UA should be a preferred carrier on the Chicago side, and WN has decent service with 4 nonstops.

AA has the LHR flight, but after the US merger, it never really took that much interest to defend or grow RDU.

And, prior to the AirTran acquisition, WN used to be a popular choice for RDU business passengers. Then WN got consumed with ATL. Meanwhile RDU got all this west coast service from other carriers and DL added a focus city at RDU.

I'm somewhat skeptical on DL's RDU-ORD. DL has gotten into high fare/ limited competition markets just against one carrier in markets like DCA, BWI, PHL and EWR, and it seems to do fine. But Chicago is up against all three hub carriers. Maybe comparable is CVG-ORD, but RDU-ORD is about 200-300 miles longer than those RDU-WAS/PHL/EWR and CVG-CHI, and I wouldn't be surprised if there is a fare war.
Last edited by phluser on Fri Jul 13, 2018 7:57 am, edited 2 times in total.
 
Sydscott
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Re: Delta adds RDU-ORD

Fri Jul 13, 2018 7:29 am

compensateme wrote:
usdcaguy wrote:
The difference here being that DL lacks the footprint in PHL, ORD, EWR (LGA/JFK is for others), DCA and SFO that AA/UA have. Their big hubs at ATL/DTW/MSP simply do not have the same O&D demand. They also have no Texas hub. As a result, DL has had to fill in with nonstops where possible if it wants business in major tech cities like RDU or AUS.


Another manufactured a.net myth (“fake news”) that’s repeated endlessly. DL carries significantly more local passengers at ATL as AA at DFW and similar number at DTW and SLC as AA at ORD and CLT, respectively. ATL, DTW and MSP are also higher-yielding than DFW or ORD. Sometimes it’s good to be #1, rather than competing and splitting a market...


The fact is that AA and DL have totally different strategies which both are executing.

For DL, as a more mature merged carrier they are looking for additional cities which can support expanded services like RDU because they have already done the work at their hubs to get them in order.

For AA, they have had substantially more opportunity in the merger to continue their cornerstone hub strategy. So between LAX/PHX/DFW/ORD/MIA/CLT/PHL/DCA they are still building out connections and international routes and aren't interested in non hub P2P.

So I don't see where DL's hubs, or lack of hubs, comes into what is clearly a strategy of DL to build out their network in different cities. RDU-ORD is an essential RDU route if, for the long term, DL's business proposition was going to continue to expand so it's not surprising they would add to it.
 
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usdcaguy
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Re: Delta adds RDU-ORD

Fri Jul 13, 2018 7:40 am

compensateme wrote:
usdcaguy wrote:
The difference here being that DL lacks the footprint in PHL, ORD, EWR (LGA/JFK is for others), DCA and SFO that AA/UA have. Their big hubs at ATL/DTW/MSP simply do not have the same O&D demand. They also have no Texas hub. As a result, DL has had to fill in with nonstops where possible if it wants business in major tech cities like RDU or AUS.


Another manufactured a.net myth (“fake news”) that’s repeated endlessly. DL carries significantly more local passengers at ATL as AA at DFW and similar number at DTW and SLC as AA at ORD and CLT, respectively. ATL, DTW and MSP are also higher-yielding than DFW or ORD. Sometimes it’s good to be #1, rather than competing and splitting a market...


My point was less about pure hub O&D and more about tech and consulting business O&D that touches ATL/DTW/MSP less than the other cities. Places like RDU/CMH/AUS and even BOS needed more attention from DL given their smaller PTP footprint in those cities compared to the others, who already had a lot of nonstops available to their hubs and even LAX/SFO.
 
compensateme
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Re: Delta adds RDU-ORD

Fri Jul 13, 2018 7:58 am

usdcaguy wrote:
My point was less about pure hub O&D and more about tech and consulting business O&D that touches ATL/DTW/MSP less than the other cities. Places like RDU/CMH/AUS and even BOS needed more attention from DL given their smaller PTP footprint in those cities compared to the others, who already had a lot of nonstops available to their hubs and even LAX/SFO.


It’s a faux argument. You’re arguing that DL is handicap because DTW generates fewer local passengers than ORD, therefore DL is seeking P2P routes to compensate for the lesser O/D. Yet you’re completely ignoring the fact that because AA’s hubs are more competitive, ORD generates similar local enplanements for it as DTW does for DL. Given that’s unlikely to change, it’s faux to argue that DL is somehow handicap.

Reality is, DL’s dominate performance at its core hubs — ATL, DTW, MSP and SLC — puts it in position of developing additional markets. DL doesn’t make money in NYC, LAX or SEA status quo, but is planting seeds to succeed tomorrow. Meanwhile, AA needs to play a defensive position at its hubs in DFW, ORD, PHX and MIA, so as not to erode market share to competition.
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Bobloblaw
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Re: Delta adds RDU-ORD

Fri Jul 13, 2018 9:01 am

I don't think AA is playing defense at DFW and PHL or MIA. If you will notice, AA is doing more hub growth than is Delta. Delta's hubs are more tapped out when it comes to new opportunities versus CLT or even MIA domestic. When was the last new Delta domestic market from ATL? Seems like there is a new AA market from CLT and PHL almost monthly.
 
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Re: Delta adds RDU-ORD

Fri Jul 13, 2018 9:15 am

panamair wrote:
SFOtoORD wrote:
Surprising this came before SEA-ORD although I suspect those yields aren’t great.


DL already serves SEA-ORD, up to 3x a day on the A319 during summer peak.


DL has started to use the 738 on this route as well.
 
compensateme
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Re: Delta adds RDU-ORD

Fri Jul 13, 2018 11:09 am

Bobloblaw wrote:
I don't think AA is playing defense at DFW and PHL or MIA. If you will notice, AA is doing more hub growth than is Delta. Delta's hubs are more tapped out when it comes to new opportunities versus CLT or even MIA domestic. When was the last new Delta domestic market from ATL? Seems like there is a new AA market from CLT and PHL almost monthly.


AA isn’t growing its hubs any faster than DL. While ATL may not be receiving new destinations, ASM are scheduled to grow by nearly 4% this year, which is faster than the pacing AA is growing CLT. Part of CLT, PHL, etc. receiving new destinations is simply AA synergizing its network - something DL did awhile ago. Many of the new markets to ORD, CLT, PHL, etc. lack a local market and are simply designed to feed the hubs. When the next downturn hits, CLT- which is one the largest hubs despite having the smallest local market - is going to get hit hard (historically, feeding markets get hit the hardest).
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MIflyer12
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Re: Delta adds RDU-ORD

Fri Jul 13, 2018 11:11 am

TWA1985 wrote:
And I wonder if / how American will respond ...


AA has 5x RDU-ORD.
 
MIflyer12
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Re: Delta adds RDU-ORD

Fri Jul 13, 2018 11:15 am

rajincajun01 wrote:
DL continues to eat into AA at RDU. They've added LAX, PHL, MIA (seasonal), DCA, CDG (competes with LHR), and now ORD in their build up at RDU. Also begin mainline on LGA this fall. Wouldn't be surprised if DFW is next.


DL may take on AA on its own RDU-xxx routes, but DL already beats AA handily in total RDU enplanements, and has since 2015.

http://www.rdu.com/wp-content/uploads/2 ... Report.pdf
 
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Midwestindy
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Re: Delta adds RDU-ORD

Fri Jul 13, 2018 11:30 am

I wouldn't be surprised if DL cuts or trims some routes to feed this flight, CVG-ORD can't be performing that well.
2018: AMS, ATL, BOS, BWI, CDG, CLT, CMN, DCA, DFW, DTW, EWR, FLL, FRA, HPN, JFK, IAD, IAH, IND, LAX, LGA, LHR, LOS, MAD, MIA, MSP, ORD, PHL, PVD, SAN, SEA, SJD, SLC, SFO, TPA, TXL, ZRH....Loading....
 
Bobloblaw
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Re: Delta adds RDU-ORD

Fri Jul 13, 2018 11:46 am

compensateme wrote:
Bobloblaw wrote:
I don't think AA is playing defense at DFW and PHL or MIA. If you will notice, AA is doing more hub growth than is Delta. Delta's hubs are more tapped out when it comes to new opportunities versus CLT or even MIA domestic. When was the last new Delta domestic market from ATL? Seems like there is a new AA market from CLT and PHL almost monthly.


AA isn’t growing its hubs any faster than DL. While ATL may not be receiving new destinations, ASM are scheduled to grow by nearly 4% this year, which is faster than the pacing AA is growing CLT. Part of CLT, PHL, etc. receiving new destinations is simply AA synergizing its network - something DL did awhile ago. Many of the new markets to ORD, CLT, PHL, etc. lack a local market and are simply designed to feed the hubs. When the next downturn hits, CLT- which is one the largest hubs despite having the smallest local market - is going to get hit hard (historically, feeding markets get hit the hardest).


Incorrect. ATL domestic is only growing 2% for 2018 while PHL is growing 10%. In past downturns CLT actually did well and their percent connect is only slightly higher than ATL. Once CLT adds more gates growth there will exceed ATL. There are far more unrealized domestic opportunities from CLT than ATL and CLT is starting to negatively impact DL in ATL in a way that US never did in CLT.
 
Planeboy17
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Re: Delta adds RDU-ORD

Fri Jul 13, 2018 11:50 am

panamair wrote:
SFOtoORD wrote:
Surprising this came before SEA-ORD although I suspect those yields aren’t great.


DL already serves SEA-ORD, up to 3x a day on the A319 during summer peak.

2 319 and 1 738 this summer.
 
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jfklganyc
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Re: Delta adds RDU-ORD

Fri Jul 13, 2018 11:52 am

This is an interesting add. Delta is certainly on top of their game and spreading out to cover new terrain.

How much is NYC shrinking to fund PHL growth for AA?
 
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ERJ170
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Re: Delta adds RDU-ORD

Fri Jul 13, 2018 12:08 pm

Finally! Hit another top 20 business market. I don’t know if y’all remember, but DL has stated they want to serve RDU top 25. This was definitely a gap and desperately need for DL to get business share and contracts. Awesome news. Hopefully more to come..
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kavok
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Re: Delta adds RDU-ORD

Fri Jul 13, 2018 12:40 pm

Bobloblaw wrote:
compensateme wrote:
Bobloblaw wrote:
I don't think AA is playing defense at DFW and PHL or MIA. If you will notice, AA is doing more hub growth than is Delta. Delta's hubs are more tapped out when it comes to new opportunities versus CLT or even MIA domestic. When was the last new Delta domestic market from ATL? Seems like there is a new AA market from CLT and PHL almost monthly.


AA isn’t growing its hubs any faster than DL. While ATL may not be receiving new destinations, ASM are scheduled to grow by nearly 4% this year, which is faster than the pacing AA is growing CLT. Part of CLT, PHL, etc. receiving new destinations is simply AA synergizing its network - something DL did awhile ago. Many of the new markets to ORD, CLT, PHL, etc. lack a local market and are simply designed to feed the hubs. When the next downturn hits, CLT- which is one the largest hubs despite having the smallest local market - is going to get hit hard (historically, feeding markets get hit the hardest).


Incorrect. ATL domestic is only growing 2% for 2018 while PHL is growing 10%. In past downturns CLT actually did well and their percent connect is only slightly higher than ATL. Once CLT adds more gates growth there will exceed ATL. There are far more unrealized domestic opportunities from CLT than ATL and CLT is starting to negatively impact DL in ATL in a way that US never did in CLT.



I agree that DL is not really adding many new destinations to ATL. They are also not adding many new destinations to their other fortress hubs at DTW/MSP/SLC. And if you think about it, why should they?

As pointed out earlier in the thread, there is really no competition for DL in terms of the local traffic at ATL/DTW/MSP/SLC. Thus if a DL direct flight is not offered to a given market from ATL/DTW/MSP/SLC, the passenger will still fly DL and make a connection somewhere... because connecting on DL is not any worse than flying on UA/AA/etc. where you’d also have to make a connection.

So from a competitive standpoint, DL doesn’t really need to offer new direct flights to ATL/DTW/MSP/SLC to compete with UA/AA/etc.
 
kavok
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Re: Delta adds RDU-ORD

Fri Jul 13, 2018 12:44 pm

77H wrote:
How many markets now does DL consider focus cities?
77H


Officially RDU and BOS are focus cities. Depending on which publication you read, it is unclear if CVG is officially considered a hub, or focus city.
 
77H
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Re: Delta adds RDU-ORD

Fri Jul 13, 2018 1:03 pm

compensateme wrote:
usdcaguy wrote:
The difference here being that DL lacks the footprint in PHL, ORD, EWR (LGA/JFK is for others), DCA and SFO that AA/UA have. Their big hubs at ATL/DTW/MSP simply do not have the same O&D demand. They also have no Texas hub. As a result, DL has had to fill in with nonstops where possible if it wants business in major tech cities like RDU or AUS.


Another manufactured a.net myth (“fake news”) that’s repeated endlessly. DL carries significantly more local passengers at ATL as AA at DFW and similar number at DTW and SLC as AA at ORD and CLT, respectively. ATL, DTW and MSP are also higher-yielding than DFW or ORD. Sometimes it’s good to be #1, rather than competing and splitting a market...


Not entirely sure what you’re calling a myth or fake news as usdc is right to an extent. AA and UA have hubs in the largest metro areas both in terms of population and economic strength. At face value it is logical to conclude that DL utilizes focus cities more because their hub markets are not as large in terms of populace and economic strength relative to AA/UA.

That being said, the largest markets in the country, where AA/UA hub face intense competition to a much greater extent than DL’s hub markets. This in a sense forces AA/UA to divert their attention and resources to defending their marketshare at their hubs. DL doesn’t face the same level of competition at their largest hubs allowing them to divert attention and resources to growing total network marketshare by way of focus cities.

It is no secret this strategy has paid off for DL as well as WN and the ULCCs. The beauty of the focus city strategy is DL gets to tap into these secondary markets and can charge a premium for offering service to in-demand markets often without having to connect over a hub.

The point of my original post was simply to say that if AA/UA plan on making use of the focus city strategy they need to consider getting the ball rolling as the number of viable candidates able to sustain a focus city are dwindling.

77H
 
B752OS
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Re: Delta adds RDU-ORD

Fri Jul 13, 2018 1:07 pm

It's a logical add for DL as they firm up their position in the RDU and Northeast North Carolina market. If it leads to lower fares that a nice win for consumers.
 
evank516
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Re: Delta adds RDU-ORD

Fri Jul 13, 2018 1:15 pm

This is interesting. How much of an AA FF Base still exists from the RDU hub days? I can't imagine it's lacking still. DL just started an Old AA Hub to Current AA Hub route basically.
 
SFOtoORD
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Re: Delta adds RDU-ORD

Fri Jul 13, 2018 1:18 pm

panamair wrote:
SFOtoORD wrote:
Surprising this came before SEA-ORD although I suspect those yields aren’t great.


DL already serves SEA-ORD, up to 3x a day on the A319 during summer peak.


Got it was not aware. I wonder how DL is finding the gate space given that we’ve heard before that they are capped out at ORD.
 
jplatts
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Re: Delta adds RDU-ORD

Fri Jul 13, 2018 1:35 pm

evank516 wrote:
This is interesting. How much of an AA FF Base still exists from the RDU hub days? I can't imagine it's lacking still. DL just started an Old AA Hub to Current AA Hub route basically.


Both DL and AA already serve LAX, LGA, JFK, PHL, DCA, and MIA, all of which are hubs for AA, nonstop from RDU. DL also already has nonstop service from RDU to other destinations in the eastern half of the Midwest, including IND, DTW, CVG, CMH, and CLE. It isn't unusual for DL to be adding RDU-ORD nonstop service as DL already goes head-to-head with AA on nonstops from RDU to other AA hub airports and since DL already serves other Midwestern markets nonstop from RDU.
 
evank516
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Re: Delta adds RDU-ORD

Fri Jul 13, 2018 1:37 pm

jplatts wrote:
evank516 wrote:
This is interesting. How much of an AA FF Base still exists from the RDU hub days? I can't imagine it's lacking still. DL just started an Old AA Hub to Current AA Hub route basically.


Both DL and AA already serve LAX, LGA, JFK, PHL, DCA, and MIA, all of which are hubs for AA, nonstop from RDU. DL also already has nonstop service from RDU to other destinations in the eastern half of the Midwest, including IND, DTW, CVG, CMH, and CLE. It isn't unusual for DL to be adding RDU-ORD nonstop service as DL already goes head-to-head with AA on nonstops from RDU to other AA hub airports and since DL already serves other Midwestern markets nonstop from RDU.


Not unusual, just interesting.
 
jbs2886
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Re: Delta adds RDU-ORD

Fri Jul 13, 2018 1:55 pm

77H wrote:
compensateme wrote:
usdcaguy wrote:
The difference here being that DL lacks the footprint in PHL, ORD, EWR (LGA/JFK is for others), DCA and SFO that AA/UA have. Their big hubs at ATL/DTW/MSP simply do not have the same O&D demand. They also have no Texas hub. As a result, DL has had to fill in with nonstops where possible if it wants business in major tech cities like RDU or AUS.


Another manufactured a.net myth (“fake news”) that’s repeated endlessly. DL carries significantly more local passengers at ATL as AA at DFW and similar number at DTW and SLC as AA at ORD and CLT, respectively. ATL, DTW and MSP are also higher-yielding than DFW or ORD. Sometimes it’s good to be #1, rather than competing and splitting a market...


Not entirely sure what you’re calling a myth or fake news as usdc is right to an extent. AA and UA have hubs in the largest metro areas both in terms of population and economic strength. At face value it is logical to conclude that DL utilizes focus cities more because their hub markets are not as large in terms of populace and economic strength relative to AA/UA.

That being said, the largest markets in the country, where AA/UA hub face intense competition to a much greater extent than DL’s hub markets. This in a sense forces AA/UA to divert their attention and resources to defending their marketshare at their hubs. DL doesn’t face the same level of competition at their largest hubs allowing them to divert attention and resources to growing total network marketshare by way of focus cities.

It is no secret this strategy has paid off for DL as well as WN and the ULCCs. The beauty of the focus city strategy is DL gets to tap into these secondary markets and can charge a premium for offering service to in-demand markets often without having to connect over a hub.

The point of my original post was simply to say that if AA/UA plan on making use of the focus city strategy they need to consider getting the ball rolling as the number of viable candidates able to sustain a focus city are dwindling.

77H


I have to disagree. Looking at population in isolation is flawed. Let me make an example: City A has 150 population and City B has 100 population. Two carriers are hubbed in City A and split the market equally (75 people flying if we assume population equals passengers). City B has only 1 hub carrier with 100% market share (that carrier flies 100 people). So City A is larger, but the two carriers are smaller than the carrier hubbed in City B because of market share.

DL (and NW) did focus cities because they were either large in the market already and wanted to serve O&D there and/or they strategically needed a larger presence. I don't really get how competition requires UA/AA to "divert" their attention. We aren't seeing some massive competitive build ups between the two - sure there is definitely some, but its not 100% of each. The carriers simply have different strategies, its not driven entirely by city population and competition.

Finally, someone mentioned PHL - for YEARS AA had drawn down in Philly, this has changed. So it is an outlier in the system.
 
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AirportRival
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Re: Delta adds RDU-ORD

Fri Jul 13, 2018 2:08 pm

Midwestindy wrote:
I wouldn't be surprised if DL cuts or trims some routes to feed this flight, CVG-ORD can't be performing that well.


I'm not sure the new add will have any impact on current flights out of ORD. DL's current offering on CVG-ORD is all CRJ with the new RDU-ORD being E-175. Though I will admit that it wouldn't totally surprise me to see DL cut back some at CVG after what was said in their recent earnings report.
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fsafsx
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Re: Delta adds RDU-ORD

Fri Jul 13, 2018 2:57 pm

This is a big step for Delta and Chicawgo, I think theres some more potential to turn Ohare into a hub for Delta. They need to add routes to Tampa and Fort Lauderdale and Fort Meyers next in Florida. Los Angeles and San Diego in California. And Vegas. Also Austin. Hopefully this draws traffic away from DTW
 
TWFlyGuy
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Re: Delta adds RDU-ORD

Fri Jul 13, 2018 2:57 pm

jbs2886 wrote:
77H wrote:
compensateme wrote:

Another manufactured a.net myth (“fake news”) that’s repeated endlessly. DL carries significantly more local passengers at ATL as AA at DFW and similar number at DTW and SLC as AA at ORD and CLT, respectively. ATL, DTW and MSP are also higher-yielding than DFW or ORD. Sometimes it’s good to be #1, rather than competing and splitting a market...


Not entirely sure what you’re calling a myth or fake news as usdc is right to an extent. AA and UA have hubs in the largest metro areas both in terms of population and economic strength. At face value it is logical to conclude that DL utilizes focus cities more because their hub markets are not as large in terms of populace and economic strength relative to AA/UA.

That being said, the largest markets in the country, where AA/UA hub face intense competition to a much greater extent than DL’s hub markets. This in a sense forces AA/UA to divert their attention and resources to defending their marketshare at their hubs. DL doesn’t face the same level of competition at their largest hubs allowing them to divert attention and resources to growing total network marketshare by way of focus cities.

It is no secret this strategy has paid off for DL as well as WN and the ULCCs. The beauty of the focus city strategy is DL gets to tap into these secondary markets and can charge a premium for offering service to in-demand markets often without having to connect over a hub.

The point of my original post was simply to say that if AA/UA plan on making use of the focus city strategy they need to consider getting the ball rolling as the number of viable candidates able to sustain a focus city are dwindling.

77H




I have to disagree. Looking at population in isolation is flawed. Let me make an example: City A has 150 population and City B has 100 population. Two carriers are hubbed in City A and split the market equally (75 people flying if we assume population equals passengers). City B has only 1 hub carrier with 100% market share (that carrier flies 100 people). So City A is larger, but the two carriers are smaller than the carrier hubbed in City B because of market share.

DL (and NW) did focus cities because they were either large in the market already and wanted to serve O&D there and/or they strategically needed a larger presence. I don't really get how competition requires UA/AA to "divert" their attention. We aren't seeing some massive competitive build ups between the two - sure there is definitely some, but its not 100% of each. The carriers simply have different strategies, its not driven entirely by city population and competition.

Finally, someone mentioned PHL - for YEARS AA had drawn down in Philly, this has changed. So it is an outlier in the system.



To be fair, AA has done focus cities in the past. They've moved away from it, at least for now. I think a lot of their issue is that they still have a lot of hub opportunities created by the merger. CLT ORD & PHL mostly because they can now serve customers a lot more than before. Add in the need to have the MD80's replaced, they were dealing with fleet issues as well. I could see AA returning to the focus city concept in the next couple of years. UA never has been big on focus cities, nor was CO for that matter so it's not been part of their DNA. To the points made though, as the hubs get tapped out, focus cities will need to be part of the strategy.
 
jbs2886
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Re: Delta adds RDU-ORD

Fri Jul 13, 2018 3:16 pm

TWFlyGuy wrote:
jbs2886 wrote:
77H wrote:

Not entirely sure what you’re calling a myth or fake news as usdc is right to an extent. AA and UA have hubs in the largest metro areas both in terms of population and economic strength. At face value it is logical to conclude that DL utilizes focus cities more because their hub markets are not as large in terms of populace and economic strength relative to AA/UA.

That being said, the largest markets in the country, where AA/UA hub face intense competition to a much greater extent than DL’s hub markets. This in a sense forces AA/UA to divert their attention and resources to defending their marketshare at their hubs. DL doesn’t face the same level of competition at their largest hubs allowing them to divert attention and resources to growing total network marketshare by way of focus cities.

It is no secret this strategy has paid off for DL as well as WN and the ULCCs. The beauty of the focus city strategy is DL gets to tap into these secondary markets and can charge a premium for offering service to in-demand markets often without having to connect over a hub.

The point of my original post was simply to say that if AA/UA plan on making use of the focus city strategy they need to consider getting the ball rolling as the number of viable candidates able to sustain a focus city are dwindling.

77H




I have to disagree. Looking at population in isolation is flawed. Let me make an example: City A has 150 population and City B has 100 population. Two carriers are hubbed in City A and split the market equally (75 people flying if we assume population equals passengers). City B has only 1 hub carrier with 100% market share (that carrier flies 100 people). So City A is larger, but the two carriers are smaller than the carrier hubbed in City B because of market share.

DL (and NW) did focus cities because they were either large in the market already and wanted to serve O&D there and/or they strategically needed a larger presence. I don't really get how competition requires UA/AA to "divert" their attention. We aren't seeing some massive competitive build ups between the two - sure there is definitely some, but its not 100% of each. The carriers simply have different strategies, its not driven entirely by city population and competition.

Finally, someone mentioned PHL - for YEARS AA had drawn down in Philly, this has changed. So it is an outlier in the system.



To be fair, AA has done focus cities in the past. They've moved away from it, at least for now. I think a lot of their issue is that they still have a lot of hub opportunities created by the merger. CLT ORD & PHL mostly because they can now serve customers a lot more than before. Add in the need to have the MD80's replaced, they were dealing with fleet issues as well. I could see AA returning to the focus city concept in the next couple of years. UA never has been big on focus cities, nor was CO for that matter so it's not been part of their DNA. To the points made though, as the hubs get tapped out, focus cities will need to be part of the strategy.


Very good points. They all have unique positions. But AA definitely has had unique opportunities with CLT and now PHL (haven't seen too much with PHX and DCA).

I just am not sure when a hub gets "tapped out" - DL can still add destinations and/or frequencies from ATL. I think the bigger point is when DL has grown so much in a market that it is sending a lot of capacity through its hub versus non-stop.
 
kavok
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Re: Delta adds RDU-ORD

Fri Jul 13, 2018 3:33 pm

DL is also taking advantage of the fact that AA is not really wanting to “defend its turf” in RDU.

Between PHL, DCA, and CLT, that is a lot of AA hub action on the middle of the east coast. With those three hubs that close together, AA is not going to want route any connecting pax through RDU. Further, expanded flight offerings by AA from RDU canabalizies their CLT and DCA hubs.

Thus it creates an opening for DL to move in. RDU is a fast growing area, and may become an even bigger player in DL network with 20 more years of continued population growth. And since AA can’t really defend RDU, DL is getting their foot in the door before UA realizes there is an opening.
 
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Midwestindy
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Re: Delta adds RDU-ORD

Fri Jul 13, 2018 3:44 pm

AirportRival wrote:
Midwestindy wrote:
I wouldn't be surprised if DL cuts or trims some routes to feed this flight, CVG-ORD can't be performing that well.


I'm not sure the new add will have any impact on current flights out of ORD. DL's current offering on CVG-ORD is all CRJ with the new RDU-ORD being E-175. Though I will admit that it wouldn't totally surprise me to see DL cut back some at CVG after what was said in their recent earnings report.


It’s more about gate space, rather than equipment. DL doesn’t have much gate space for flights at ORD. Plus DL said they would be cutting flights from routes that couldn’t sustain higher fares, and yields have gone down the drain since WN added CVG-MDW
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727LOVER
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Re: Delta adds RDU-ORD

Fri Jul 13, 2018 4:02 pm

Can we have a list of destinations from RDU on both AA and DL?

# of flights for both
market share for both
gates for both

THANK YOU
"We must accept finite disappointment, but never lose infinite hope." - Martin Luther King, Jr.
 
tphuang
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Re: Delta adds RDU-ORD

Fri Jul 13, 2018 4:16 pm

fsafsx wrote:
This is a big step for Delta and Chicawgo, I think theres some more potential to turn Ohare into a hub for Delta. They need to add routes to Tampa and Fort Lauderdale and Fort Meyers next in Florida. Los Angeles and San Diego in California. And Vegas. Also Austin. Hopefully this draws traffic away from DTW

This is the kind of comment that just ignores any sense of reality.
 
MIflyer12
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Re: Delta adds RDU-ORD

Fri Jul 13, 2018 4:20 pm

727LOVER wrote:
Can we have a list of destinations from RDU on both AA and DL?

# of flights for both
market share for both
gates for both

THANK YOU


Market share, in the link I provided upthread:

Delta carried 1801K of 5851K enplanements for 2017, 30.8%.

AA carried 1541K, or 26.3%.
 
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FA9295
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Re: Delta adds RDU-ORD

Fri Jul 13, 2018 4:33 pm

tphuang wrote:
fsafsx wrote:
This is a big step for Delta and Chicawgo, I think theres some more potential to turn Ohare into a hub for Delta. They need to add routes to Tampa and Fort Lauderdale and Fort Meyers next in Florida. Los Angeles and San Diego in California. And Vegas. Also Austin. Hopefully this draws traffic away from DTW

This is the kind of comment that just ignores any sense of reality.

:checkmark: Yep. I seriously doubt that O'Hare/ORD will become a serious focus city for Delta. It would be absolutely pointless to enter in a market that both UA and AA already thrive in.
Next flights:
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Cointrin330
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Re: Delta adds RDU-ORD

Fri Jul 13, 2018 4:49 pm

kavok wrote:
DL is also taking advantage of the fact that AA is not really wanting to “defend its turf” in RDU.

Between PHL, DCA, and CLT, that is a lot of AA hub action on the middle of the east coast. With those three hubs that close together, AA is not going to want route any connecting pax through RDU. Further, expanded flight offerings by AA from RDU canabalizies their CLT and DCA hubs.

Thus it creates an opening for DL to move in. RDU is a fast growing area, and may become an even bigger player in DL network with 20 more years of continued population growth. And since AA can’t really defend RDU, DL is getting their foot in the door before UA realizes there is an opening.


I'm not sure there is much AA has to defend or that it wants to, in RDU. Pre-merger, RDU was already a much smaller station for AA and the hub there was a flop. With CLT close by, which is said to be one of the most profitable hubs in the country, AA does not really need to invest a lot in RDU. The LHR flight is subsidized and long has been. DL smartly moved into RDU at the right time, with the Triangle economy growing substantially. It' s a really nice airport.
 
B752OS
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Re: Delta adds RDU-ORD

Fri Jul 13, 2018 4:56 pm

How many gates does DL control at RDU?

How long before they continue to expand the network and add STL/MCI/DFW/IAH/MSY/SFO/SAN/LAS/PHX/DEN?
 
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FA9295
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Re: Delta adds RDU-ORD

Fri Jul 13, 2018 4:57 pm

I don't want to get too off topic here, but on the subject of RDU and Delta, does anyone know how Delta is doing with their RDU-SEA flight? Obviously, this route is in clear retaliation of Alaska in hopes of taking any sort of lingering passenger traffic away from them, but I'm not exactly sure if there's demand for two daily flights between RDU and SEA.

On the other hand, though, let's say hypothetically that Delta is performing very well on RDU-SEA (which I sort of doubt), what are the chances that we may see future flights Delta flights to/from RDU and some of the mid-sized west coast airports, such as SAN, SJC, and PDX...? I'd LOVE to see RDU-PDX, although I'm clearly biased there :D .
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AVLAirlineFreq
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Re: Delta adds RDU-ORD

Fri Jul 13, 2018 5:13 pm

FA9295 wrote:
I don't want to get too off topic here, but on the subject of RDU and Delta, does anyone know how Delta is doing with their RDU-SEA flight? Obviously, this route is in clear retaliation of Alaska in hopes of taking any sort of lingering passenger traffic away from them, but I'm not exactly sure if there's demand for two daily flights between RDU and SEA.

On the other hand, though, let's say hypothetically that Delta is performing very well on RDU-SEA (which I sort of doubt), what are the chances that we may see future flights Delta flights to/from RDU and some of the mid-sized west coast airports, such as SAN, SJC, and PDX...? I'd LOVE to see RDU-PDX, although I'm clearly biased there :D .


DL on RDU-SEA offers connectivity to Asia, which is critical for the Triangle.
 
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casinterest
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Re: Delta adds RDU-ORD

Fri Jul 13, 2018 5:26 pm

727LOVER wrote:
Can we have a list of destinations from RDU on both AA and DL?

# of flights for both
market share for both
gates for both

THANK YOU

https://www.rdu.com/airline-information ... tinations/ This will show you the non stops. Number of flights will have to come from elsewhere
https://www.rdu.com/airline-information/rdu-airlines/ this will show you the gates


Market share is here for the airport.
American is currently 25.x% of traffic
Delta is 31.x% of traffic


http://www.rdu.com/wp-content/uploads/2 ... h-CYTD.pdf


Delta continues to add more destination from RDU, and if AA(for some weird reason of the CLT/PHL/JFK closeness) dropped the LHR flight, I am rather confident Delta would start it.
Older than I just was ,and younger than I will soo be.
 
tphuang
Posts: 1444
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Re: Delta adds RDU-ORD

Fri Jul 13, 2018 5:28 pm

FA9295 wrote:
I don't want to get too off topic here, but on the subject of RDU and Delta, does anyone know how Delta is doing with their RDU-SEA flight? Obviously, this route is in clear retaliation of Alaska in hopes of taking any sort of lingering passenger traffic away from them, but I'm not exactly sure if there's demand for two daily flights between RDU and SEA.

On the other hand, though, let's say hypothetically that Delta is performing very well on RDU-SEA (which I sort of doubt), what are the chances that we may see future flights Delta flights to/from RDU and some of the mid-sized west coast airports, such as SAN, SJC, and PDX...? I'd LOVE to see RDU-PDX, although I'm clearly biased there :D .


Posting here just to Give a sense of how well they do on that on Q1
CityPair Dist CarrierBoard AvgFare NSFare ConnFare % NS LoadF AvgAsm PRASM
RDUSEA 2354 DL 17393 248.4 230.57 331.84 82.39% 73.69% 169.91 0.0722
RDUSEA 2354 AS 24485 207.12 206.89 287.86 99.72% 79.88% 165.26 0.0702
Their yields are slightly higher than AS, but $230 fares on non-stop itinerary + 74% LF is really not good. Maybe it will be better in summer season. Just as a comparison, ATLSEA, which is slightly shorter, generated average N/S fare of $365 along with 92% LF.

ORDSEA 1721 AA 64069 242.92 237.52 401.98 96.72% 77.73% 184.62 0.1073
ORDSEA 1721 DL 31557 215.81 213.83 300.28 97.70% 69.50% 148.61 0.0864
ORDSEA 1721 AS 91472 206.06 205.46 333.24 99.53% 81.34% 167.11 0.0971
ORDSEA 1721 UA 91016 269.45 266.00 333.02 94.85% 86.06% 228.92 0.133
And this just to give an idea of how DL might do on a route between ORD and another airport that they don't dominate. Yes, UA yield was 54% higher and AA was 24% higher.

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