blrsea
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Re: Jet Airways: reports cash running out

Sat Jan 26, 2019 2:03 am

edealinfo wrote:
blrsea wrote:
edealinfo wrote:


I disagree. Foreign companies operating in India (IBM, Microsoft, etc) don't have a legal requirement to demonstrate effective control as do airlines, and "effective control" goes beyond a rubber stamp. That's why the phrase is "effective" control and not just control. Effective control refers to the person (s) that are pulling the strings. For instance, Sonia had effective control even though Manmohan was actually the PM. Likewise, Moody may now be the PM but effective control is with the RSS.


Effective control is not required for all companies. Its sector by sector. Airlines, and I believe telecom also has that requirement. The CEO and board have to be Indian nationals. Not just India, but many other countries have that requirement for various sectors.
 
edealinfo
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Re: Jet Airways: reports cash running out

Sat Jan 26, 2019 2:08 am

blrsea wrote:
edealinfo wrote:
blrsea wrote:


I disagree. Foreign companies operating in India (IBM, Microsoft, etc) don't have a legal requirement to demonstrate effective control as do airlines, and "effective control" goes beyond a rubber stamp. That's why the phrase is "effective" control and not just control. Effective control refers to the person (s) that are pulling the strings. For instance, Sonia had effective control even though Manmohan was actually the PM. Likewise, Moody may now be the PM but effective control is with the RSS.


Effective control is not required for all companies. Its sector by sector. Airlines, and I believe telecom also has that requirement. The CEO and board have to be Indian nationals. Not just India, but many other countries have that requirement for various sectors.


Just because a Board has Indian nationals and the CEO is Indian, it doesn't mean "effective" control is with Indians. The word "effective" is loaded....it means who has true control not who is optically in control. Here again is the analogy I provided so you understand the distinction

Effective control refers to the person (s) that are pulling the strings. For instance, Sonia had effective control even though Manmohan was actually the PM. Likewise, Moody may now be the PM but effective control is with the RSS.
 
blrsea
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Re: Jet Airways: reports cash running out

Sat Jan 26, 2019 2:11 am

edealinfo wrote:
blrsea wrote:
edealinfo wrote:

I disagree. Foreign companies operating in India (IBM, Microsoft, etc) don't have a legal requirement to demonstrate effective control as do airlines, and "effective control" goes beyond a rubber stamp. That's why the phrase is "effective" control and not just control. Effective control refers to the person (s) that are pulling the strings. For instance, Sonia had effective control even though Manmohan was actually the PM. Likewise, Moody may now be the PM but effective control is with the RSS.


Effective control is not required for all companies. Its sector by sector. Airlines, and I believe telecom also has that requirement. The CEO and board have to be Indian nationals. Not just India, but many other countries have that requirement for various sectors.


Just because a Board has Indian nationals and the CEO is Indian, it doesn't mean "effective" control is with Indians. The word "effective" is loaded....it means who has true control not who is optically in control. Here again is the analogy I provided so you understand the distinction

Effective control refers to the person (s) that are pulling the strings. For instance, Sonia had effective control even though Manmohan was actually the PM. Likewise, Moody may now be the PM but effective control is with the RSS.


Ok, you are right, the bureaucrats who formed the policy are stupid and have no clue because an internet keyboard warrior decided on his own interpretation based on brief news reports feels it is so.
 
edealinfo
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Re: Jet Airways: reports cash running out

Sat Jan 26, 2019 2:17 am

blrsea wrote:
edealinfo wrote:
blrsea wrote:

Effective control is not required for all companies. Its sector by sector. Airlines, and I believe telecom also has that requirement. The CEO and board have to be Indian nationals. Not just India, but many other countries have that requirement for various sectors.


Just because a Board has Indian nationals and the CEO is Indian, it doesn't mean "effective" control is with Indians. The word "effective" is loaded....it means who has true control not who is optically in control. Here again is the analogy I provided so you understand the distinction

Effective control refers to the person (s) that are pulling the strings. For instance, Sonia had effective control even though Manmohan was actually the PM. Likewise, Moody may now be the PM but effective control is with the RSS.


Ok, you are right, the bureaucrats who formed the policy are stupid and have no clue because an internet keyboard warrior decided on his own interpretation based on brief news reports feels it is so.


I think you should read this article:
https://www.ndtv.com/business/qatar-air ... es-1911329
 
Antarius
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Re: Jet Airways: reports cash running out

Sat Jan 26, 2019 2:17 am

edealinfo wrote:
blrsea wrote:
edealinfo wrote:

I disagree. Foreign companies operating in India (IBM, Microsoft, etc) don't have a legal requirement to demonstrate effective control as do airlines, and "effective control" goes beyond a rubber stamp. That's why the phrase is "effective" control and not just control. Effective control refers to the person (s) that are pulling the strings. For instance, Sonia had effective control even though Manmohan was actually the PM. Likewise, Moody may now be the PM but effective control is with the RSS.


Effective control is not required for all companies. Its sector by sector. Airlines, and I believe telecom also has that requirement. The CEO and board have to be Indian nationals. Not just India, but many other countries have that requirement for various sectors.


Just because a Board has Indian nationals and the CEO is Indian, it doesn't mean "effective" control is with Indians. The word "effective" is loaded....it means who has true control not who is optically in control. Here again is the analogy I provided so you understand the distinction

Effective control refers to the person (s) that are pulling the strings. For instance, Sonia had effective control even though Manmohan was actually the PM. Likewise, Moody may now be the PM but effective control is with the RSS.


Moody? :?
2018: AUA CLT IAH HOU DFW COS DEN CLL ORD PEK PVG PHX SFO SJC OAK PHL YYC STL DTW HNL OGG JFK LGA EWR GIG GRU IGU CWB SDU MDW BOS IAD DCA PBI FLL MIA
 
edealinfo
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Re: Jet Airways: reports cash running out

Sat Jan 26, 2019 2:18 am

blrsea wrote:
Ok, you are right, the bureaucrats who formed the policy are stupid and have no clue because an internet keyboard warrior decided on his own interpretation based on brief news reports feels it is so.


I think you should read this article. See, even the head of Qatar Airways thinks it makes no sense and I don't think he is an internet keyboard warrior.

https://www.ndtv.com/business/qatar-air ... es-1911329
Last edited by edealinfo on Sat Jan 26, 2019 2:23 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
blrsea
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Re: Jet Airways: reports cash running out

Sat Jan 26, 2019 2:21 am

edealinfo wrote:
blrsea wrote:
edealinfo wrote:

Just because a Board has Indian nationals and the CEO is Indian, it doesn't mean "effective" control is with Indians. The word "effective" is loaded....it means who has true control not who is optically in control. Here again is the analogy I provided so you understand the distinction

Effective control refers to the person (s) that are pulling the strings. For instance, Sonia had effective control even though Manmohan was actually the PM. Likewise, Moody may now be the PM but effective control is with the RSS.


Ok, you are right, the bureaucrats who formed the policy are stupid and have no clue because an internet keyboard warrior decided on his own interpretation based on brief news reports feels it is so.


I think you should read this article:
https://www.ndtv.com/business/qatar-air ... es-1911329


I have read those earlier. The difference between foreign airlines and foreign PEs/funds etc has been clarified. And he isn't arguing about effective control, he is talking about foreign investment rules & distinction between foreign airlines ownership & non-airlines. The issue is that you need to understand difference between who is legally responsible and who isn't. Whether the Gandhis or RSS control someone is totally irrelevant. If things go down, the people prosecuted is the ones under whose authority illegal acts occured, not against who whispered in their ears.
 
edealinfo
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Re: Jet Airways: reports cash running out

Sat Jan 26, 2019 2:30 am

blrsea wrote:
I have read those earlier. The difference between foreign airlines and foreign PEs/funds etc has been clarified. And he isn't arguing about effective control, he is talking about foreign investment rules & distinction between foreign airlines ownership & non-airlines. The issue is that you need to understand difference between who is legally responsible and who isn't. Whether the Gandhis or RSS control someone is totally irrelevant. If things go down, the people prosecuted is the ones under whose authority illegal acts occured, not against who whispered in their ears.


So, if the explanation is clear to you, why do you think it is not clear to Qatar Airways' expensive Indian lawyers? It makes no sense to me either.

The analogy/example was to demonstrate "effective" control, the meaning of which you still don't get.

The Indian government is not going to be convinced that Appu Nahasapekapetulan, Chairman and CEO of Qatar Airways India is in effective control when Qatar owns 100%.
 
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unrave
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Re: Jet Airways: reports cash running out

Sat Jan 26, 2019 2:31 am

There is no requirement for the CEO to be Indian. Vistara CEO is Singaporean
India: World's fastest growing major economy. World's fastest growing aviation market.
 
VTORD
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Re: Jet Airways: reports cash running out

Sat Jan 26, 2019 5:38 am

edealinfo wrote:
I think you should read this article. See, even the head of Qatar Airways thinks it makes no sense and I don't think he is an internet keyboard warrior.

https://www.ndtv.com/business/qatar-air ... es-1911329


Personally I think this is just AAB trying blow smoke up people's backside! In Sept 2018 he won't invest because the FDI rules are not clear but not 4 months later he will invest if Etihad is out of the picture?
I think AAB was just feeling left out of the conversation.
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sabby
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Re: Jet Airways: reports cash running out

Sat Jan 26, 2019 8:01 am

dtw2hyd wrote:
After QR's hypothetical takeover, problems will start because they cannot bring working capital, again hypothetical QR owned 9W has to go to an Indian PSB.

This is a vicious cycle and no way to get out.


Well, technically, there are ways to do that. For example, they do SLB for all 9W owned aircrafts to QR with peanuts as leases but with large sale value. Return all leased frames and then dry lease via QR where QR pay the actual lease and then they charge peanuts to 9W as lease rates etc. There's a reason good lawyers and accountants are always in demand and make a killing ;) . I do not think it will happen nor that I think it is a good idea though.
 
edealinfo
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Re: Jet Airways: reports cash running out

Sun Jan 27, 2019 12:05 am

Jet Airways woes: Rs 32,809 crore of taxpayers money to Air India may have sealed the fate of Naresh Goyal-led airline

https://www.financialexpress.com/opinio ... s/1454343/
 
blrsea
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Re: Jet Airways: reports cash running out

Mon Jan 28, 2019 11:56 am

Jet airways seeks to convert debt to equity. Wonder what rates it will done at, also dilution of the stock value This is from stock exchange filing by the company, not shills running down company with fake news.

Jet Airways seeks shareholder approval for converting debt into shares

Jet Airways said on Monday it would seek shareholder approval to issue new equity and convert existing debt into equity among other things at a special meeting on Feb. 21, as the beleaguered airline attempts to stay afloat.

The company will also seek approval to allow its lenders to nominate directors to its board, the airline said in a regulatory filing.
...
At the extraordinary shareholder meeting, the company proposes that share capital be increased 11-fold to 22 billion rupees from 2 billion rupees, by creating an additional 500 million shares and 1.50 billion preference shares.
...
 
edealinfo
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Re: Jet Airways: reports cash running out

Mon Jan 28, 2019 5:20 pm

blrsea wrote:


Ok, you are right, the bureaucrats who formed the policy are stupid and have no clue because an internet keyboard warrior decided on his own interpretation based on brief news reports feels it is so.[/quote]
Because you are so skeptical here is another example of effective control and lack of it.
Let’s say you 100 percent own a buitiful 5 bedroom house in India but you like in Dubai. So you hire your wife’s sisters brother in law to be the CEO/Manger of the property will you are away. Do you think that person can paint your house pink, replace the all glass windows windows with an alternative, etc. who do you think has true “effective control” to make decisions that have significance. You or that other person. Do you get the point or do you need another analogy?
 
edealinfo
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Re: Jet Airways: reports cash running out

Mon Jan 28, 2019 5:21 pm

blrsea wrote:

Ok, you are right, the bureaucrats who formed the policy are stupid and have no clue because an internet keyboard warrior decided on his own interpretation based on brief news reports feels it is so.





Because you are so skeptical here is another example of effective control and lack of it.
Let’s say you 100 percent own a buitiful 5 bedroom house in India but you like in Dubai. So you hire your wife’s sisters brother in law to be the CEO/Manger of the property will you are away. Do you think that person can paint your house pink, replace the all glass windows windows with an alternative, etc. who do you think has true “effective control” to make decisions that have significance. You or that other person. Do you get the point or do you need another analogy?[/quote]
 
dtw2hyd
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Re: Jet Airways: reports cash running out

Mon Jan 28, 2019 5:53 pm

Most private airline management in India are foreigners, Indian origins or Indians with undeclared dual-citizenships. Leslie Thng(Singapore), Vinay Dube(US), Sanjiv Kapoor(US), and Ronojoy Dutta(US??) are foreigners. Dutta has to be a US Citizen if he was president of United Airlines at one point.
Most private airlines are unofficially majority owned by foreigners. No need to name the names.
100% FDI was a midnight panic announcement because foreign investors started pulling out their investments, not much thought process.
So 100% FDI and effective control issue need to be litigated, my guess effective control rule will not stand.
 
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unrave
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Re: Jet Airways: reports cash running out

Mon Jan 28, 2019 8:14 pm

dtw2hyd wrote:
Most private airline management in India are foreigners, Indian origins or Indians with undeclared dual-citizenships. Leslie Thng(Singapore), Vinay Dube(US), Sanjiv Kapoor(US), and Ronojoy Dutta(US??) are foreigners. Dutta has to be a US Citizen if he was president of United Airlines at one point.
Most private airlines are unofficially majority owned by foreigners. No need to name the names.
100% FDI was a midnight panic announcement because foreign investors started pulling out their investments, not much thought process.
So 100% FDI and effective control issue need to be litigated, my guess effective control rule will not stand.

Saar, pliss to explain how can an airline be unofficially majority owned by foreigners?
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Antarius
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Re: Jet Airways: reports cash running out

Mon Jan 28, 2019 8:47 pm

dtw2hyd wrote:
Most private airlines are unofficially majority owned by foreigners. No need to name the names.


Please do. Otherwise, this is speculation or theorizing.
2018: AUA CLT IAH HOU DFW COS DEN CLL ORD PEK PVG PHX SFO SJC OAK PHL YYC STL DTW HNL OGG JFK LGA EWR GIG GRU IGU CWB SDU MDW BOS IAD DCA PBI FLL MIA
 
edealinfo
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Re: Jet Airways: reports cash running out

Tue Jan 29, 2019 1:26 am

More news coming out on Jet.......

To summarize:
1. Banks to convert some debt to equity which will bring down the existing stakes of both Etihad (24%) and Naresh Goyal (51%).
2. Post debt to equity conversion, Jet and Etihad to reinvest to increase their now reduced stakes. Etihad to invest so it continues to maintain its 24% stake thereby not triggering a requirement for an open offer for an additional 26%. It is unclear how much Jet would invest and how much equity it would hold. My guess is Naresh Goyal would opt to get to 25%, which will allow him to block special resolutions thereby allowing him to retain some level of power. He had promised that he would invest Rs 700 crore if he is allowed to keep 25% and pledge all his shares to the bank.
3. If #1 and #2 happen, Naresh Goyal is a true jadugar/magician having outwitted everyone yet again. Truly a wily old person!

“Naresh Goyal’s stake in Jet Airways could fall to 25% or lower, from existing 51%, after lenders convert debt into equity," said a person with direct knowledge of the matter, requesting anonymity. “Etihad, which is waiting to infuse capital into the Indian airline, provided their conditions are met, could restart talks about fund infusion once the debt to equity conversion is completed."

“As it is, Tata Sons is still interested to invest in Jet Airways, provided Naresh Goyal cedes control in the airline. However, Etihad is in a position to invest in Jet Airways without triggering an open offer as the lenders debt to equity conversion will also bring down Etihad’s stake in the airline," the person said, adding that Etihad might infuse capital and refinance debt without triggering an open offer by not exceeding the shareholding of 25%.

https://www.livemint.com/companies/news ... 08096.html
 
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unrave
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Re: Jet Airways: reports cash running out

Tue Jan 29, 2019 1:28 am

dtw2hyd wrote:

So 100% FDI and effective control issue need to be litigated, my guess effective control rule will not stand.

Saar, what INDIAN law does this rule contravene? Which part of the INDIAN constitution does this fall foul of ?
India: World's fastest growing major economy. World's fastest growing aviation market.
 
blrsea
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Re: Jet Airways: reports cash running out

Tue Jan 29, 2019 1:32 am

edealinfo wrote:
blrsea wrote:

Ok, you are right, the bureaucrats who formed the policy are stupid and have no clue because an internet keyboard warrior decided on his own interpretation based on brief news reports feels it is so.





Because you are so skeptical here is another example of effective control and lack of it.
Let’s say you 100 percent own a buitiful 5 bedroom house in India but you like in Dubai. So you hire your wife’s sisters brother in law to be the CEO/Manger of the property will you are away. Do you think that person can paint your house pink, replace the all glass windows windows with an alternative, etc. who do you think has true “effective control” to make decisions that have significance. You or that other person. Do you get the point or do you need another analogy?
[/quote]

Please learn difference between who is legally responsible and who is not. And please stop these analogies, its getting tiring. Just stop this right here, I won't be responding anymore to your childish analogies.
 
edealinfo
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Re: Jet Airways: reports cash running out

Tue Jan 29, 2019 1:43 am

blrsea wrote:
It just means that the CEO and board should have majority Indian citizens in control, who are subject to Indian laws.


You are wrong. Vistara's CEO is not Indian. Why do you keep feeding false information on this forum?
 
edealinfo
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Re: Jet Airways: reports cash running out

Tue Jan 29, 2019 1:48 am

blrsea wrote:
Ok, you are right, the bureaucrats who formed the policy are stupid and have no clue because an internet keyboard warrior decided on his own interpretation based on brief news reports feels it is so.


Ofcourse I am right! Bureucrats who frame a policy that states that foreigners can own 100% of an airline but an Indian has to have effective control are indeed stupid and those that actually think that the policy makes any sense should take a case in Logic 101 (i.e., Basic logic)
 
blrsea
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Re: Jet Airways: reports cash running out

Tue Jan 29, 2019 1:48 am

edealinfo wrote:
blrsea wrote:
It just means that the CEO and board should have majority Indian citizens in control, who are subject to Indian laws.


You are wrong. Vistara's CEO is not Indian. Why do you keep feeding false information on this forum?


Yes, I was wrong about the CEO part, I admit it.
 
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unrave
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Re: Jet Airways: reports cash running out

Tue Jan 29, 2019 6:55 am

Social media is abuzz with stories of 9W flights being cancelled without proper intimation today. Looks like the temporary liquidity crunch is taking its toll
Edit: The issue seems to be lessors not letting Jet operate 3 aircraft. There is only so long an airline can avoid paying its lessors
India: World's fastest growing major economy. World's fastest growing aviation market.
 
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unrave
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Re: Jet Airways: reports cash running out

Tue Jan 29, 2019 8:33 am

We have more details about the Jet rescue plan

    SBI to own 15% Of Jet Airways
    Lenders led by SBI will hold nearly 30%
    Etihad Airways’ stake may go above 40% from current 24% as they infuse more equity.
    Naresh Goyal’s stake may go below 20% from the current 51% after fresh shares
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bennett123
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Re: Jet Airways: reports cash running out

Tue Jan 29, 2019 9:01 am

Just looked at Wikipedia.

From 2010, made profits in only two of those years.

If he is so wily, how can Jet not make money.
 
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unrave
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Re: Jet Airways: reports cash running out

Tue Jan 29, 2019 9:11 am

The airline has been living on borrowed time for years now. Throwing NG out is the best thing to have happened to Jet. I just hope it is not too late to save the airline
India: World's fastest growing major economy. World's fastest growing aviation market.
 
blrsea
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Re: Jet Airways: reports cash running out

Tue Jan 29, 2019 9:48 am

unrave wrote:
Social media is abuzz with stories of 9W flights being cancelled without proper intimation today. Looks like the temporary liquidity crunch is taking its toll
Edit: The issue seems to be lessors not letting Jet operate 3 aircraft. There is only so long an airline can avoid paying its lessors


You are right, Economic Times now reporting that five aircraft are grounded due to lessors initiating repossession.

Jet Airways' cash crunch worsens, 5 Boeing 737 MAX planes grounded by lessor

The financial turmoil at Jet AirwaysNSE -1.10 % has impacted the operations of the airline, which has seen about five of their Boeing 737 MAX aircraft being grounded since Monday night, as lessors want to repossess these aircraft.

The groundings have led to cancellation of about 19 flights today that is set to cause inconvenience to passengers booked on these flights.

Source said that one aircraft each were grounded Delhi, Mumbai, Bengaluru and Chennai were grounded since Monday night.
...
 
blrsea
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Re: Jet Airways: reports cash running out

Tue Jan 29, 2019 9:54 am

unrave wrote:
We have more details about the Jet rescue plan

    SBI to own 15% Of Jet Airways
    Lenders led by SBI will hold nearly 30%
    Etihad Airways’ stake may go above 40% from current 24% as they infuse more equity.
    Naresh Goyal’s stake may go below 20% from the current 51% after fresh shares


Bloomberg reports just now saying the same

SBI is poised to control 15% of Jet Airways

India’s largest lender State Bank of India (SBI) is set to take an equity stake of at least 15 percent in Jet Airways India Ltd. as lenders to the carrier plan to convert part of their loans into equity, people with knowledge of the matter said.

Under a new rescue deal in the works, the nation’s biggest full-service airline’s founder Chairman Naresh Goyal’s stake will fall below 20 percent from the current 51 percent, the people said, asking not to be identified as the information is not public. Etihad Airways PJSC, the current equity partner with 24 percent stake, is expected to infuse additional funds to take its total holding to more than 40 percent, they said.
...
 
avier
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Re: Jet Airways: reports cash running out

Tue Jan 29, 2019 10:26 am

Seems like the confusion on here between foreign ownership and Indian ownership is on people of Indian origin overseas.

If an airline is owned 100% by a US Citizen (of Indian origin- NRI) , with say all NRI people running the airline, would that airline have it's effective control with a foreign entity/individual ? Or is the effective control rule just to keep out the control of firangs and is an exception to Indian origin people having any countries citizenship? I know there is the crap OCI, but that still doesn't make them an Indian citizen as OCI does not equate to dual citizenship.

And so going by the "true Indian citizen" logic, 9W's current owners - NG & family, EY and also their CEO Dube, are all not Indian citizens ( only holding OCI ). So what's with the effective control being where, here ?

Also then , why the fuss behind AirAsia India and it's owner?
 
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unrave
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Re: Jet Airways: reports cash running out

Tue Jan 29, 2019 1:15 pm

VT-JXC
VT-JGA
VT-JGF
VT-VFL
VT-JFG

These are the registrations of the aircraft that seem to have been grounded so far. JXC is a MAX and the others are 738.

Edit: PTI reports that 19 flights have been cancelled on account of this grounding
https://www.cnbctv18.com/aviation/jet-a ... 112871.htm
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edealinfo
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Re: Jet Airways: reports cash running out

Tue Jan 29, 2019 1:46 pm

Who is the lessor?
 
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unrave
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Re: Jet Airways: reports cash running out

Tue Jan 29, 2019 1:48 pm

edealinfo wrote:
Who is the lessor?

There are multiple lessors. BOC, GECAS, practically every major aircraft lessor
India: World's fastest growing major economy. World's fastest growing aviation market.
 
edealinfo
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Re: Jet Airways: reports cash running out

Tue Jan 29, 2019 1:55 pm

Jet needs $35 million immediately to resolve its needs through Feb 21. This can be achieved if JetPreviledge advances the money to the carrier. I predict this will happen quickly to prevent a meltdown at Jet. Too bad they didn’T anticipate what was coming or else they could have avoided the flight cancellations and damage to their reputation which could hurt advance sales. Unfortunately, the way things work in India, you need a major crisis for the butt kicking to start. That was the case with Spicejet also.
 
edealinfo
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Re: Jet Airways: reports cash running out

Tue Jan 29, 2019 1:57 pm

unrave wrote:
edealinfo wrote:
Who is the lessor?

There are multiple lessors. BOC, GECAS, practically every major aircraft lessor

So, 5 different lessors for each of the 5 aircraft and they jointly colluded to ground an aircraft each.
 
hohd
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Re: Jet Airways: reports cash running out

Tue Jan 29, 2019 2:10 pm

Effective control in my opinion is more than 50% of the company shares are held by Indian companies or entities and anyone can be a CEO. However in the case of AirAsia India, 49% is controlled by Air Asia and 51% is split by two Indian companies. Unless the representatives of the two Indian companies agree on everything and are able to make decisions regardless of what Air Asia says, de fact control is with AirAsia.
 
dtw2hyd
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Re: Jet Airways: reports cash running out

Tue Jan 29, 2019 2:14 pm

So one 16+ year old, one 14-year-old and one imaginary registration .are grounded, no big deal.

That leaves one MAX and one 5-year-old NG.

I think countries started looking into CTT overreach and are restricting the treaty to only post-treaty sign leases. Also, some Latin American countries have planning to extend local bankruptcy protections to finance and operating leases.

It appears CTT has outdone itself. If India applies this logic pre-2012 deliveries are not covered under CTT.

On a side note, other than GECAS, there are no major lessors in India with more than 9 frames in total. Because major western lessors are playing safe, the Indian lessor market is dominated by Chinese, Singaporean and Middle Eastern lessors.
 
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unrave
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Re: Jet Airways: reports cash running out

Tue Jan 29, 2019 2:19 pm

dtw2hyd wrote:
So one 16+ year old, one 14-year-old and one imaginary registration .are grounded, no big deal.

If a 3 month old frame being grounded for not paying leases is not a big deal, wonder what else will be...
And nearly all of the world's major aircraft lessors are Chinese/ME/Asian so I wonder what is the significance of the randomly chosen 9 aircraft threshold.
Last edited by unrave on Tue Jan 29, 2019 2:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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edealinfo
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Re: Jet Airways: reports cash running out

Tue Jan 29, 2019 2:30 pm

Naresh is still wily because he is not putting any more money at risk...: it is Etihad and SBI/banks! He isn’t throwing good money after bad. At this stage of the game, he has 20 percent of the gains of any upside to a potential recovery without having to invest a further dime. He may still have the last laugh.
 
blrsea
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Re: Jet Airways: reports cash running out

Tue Jan 29, 2019 4:08 pm

There have been news reports from last few days that EY might put in $35 million from Jet Privelage to address working cash issues. However,that doesn't appear to have happened yet. Mostly still negotiating with Goyal. Probably one of the reasons for these aircraft being grounded.

Passengers booked on Jet's flights today were pretty pissed and are all over twitter venting anger against 9W for misleading them and not giving them proper info on cancellations. Many are complaining on flights in Feb being cancelled and being put on alternate flights without informing them, causing issues with their schedules. Wonder why they couldnt have handled this more gracefully instead of ad-hoc manner.
 
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lightsaber
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Re: Jet Airways: reports cash running out

Tue Jan 29, 2019 4:15 pm

blrsea wrote:
There have been news reports from last few days that EY might put in $35 million from Jet Privelage to address working cash issues. However,that doesn't appear to have happened yet. Mostly still negotiating with Goyal. Probably one of the reasons for these aircraft being grounded.

Passengers booked on Jet's flights today were pretty pissed and are all over twitter venting anger against 9W for misleading them and not giving them proper info on cancellations. Many are complaining on flights in Feb being cancelled and being put on alternate flights without informing them, causing issues with their schedules. Wonder why they couldnt have handled this more gracefully instead of ad-hoc manner.


Goyal should have handled this years ago. Unless something changes, Jet is in dire shape.

Leasors might just have to reposses external to India...

Etihad should negotiate hard. How much worse can this become before Jet isn't salvageable?

Lightsaber
You only have the first amendment with the 2nd. If you're not going to offend someone with what you say, you don't have the 1st.
 
blrsea
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Re: Jet Airways: reports cash running out

Tue Jan 29, 2019 4:20 pm

lightsaber wrote:
blrsea wrote:
There have been news reports from last few days that EY might put in $35 million from Jet Privelage to address working cash issues. However,that doesn't appear to have happened yet. Mostly still negotiating with Goyal. Probably one of the reasons for these aircraft being grounded.

Passengers booked on Jet's flights today were pretty pissed and are all over twitter venting anger against 9W for misleading them and not giving them proper info on cancellations. Many are complaining on flights in Feb being cancelled and being put on alternate flights without informing them, causing issues with their schedules. Wonder why they couldnt have handled this more gracefully instead of ad-hoc manner.


Goyal should have handled this years ago. Unless something changes, Jet is in dire shape.

Leasors might just have to reposses external to India...

Etihad should negotiate hard. How much worse can this become before Jet isn't salvageable?

Lightsaber


The company has negative net worth. So if it gets liquidated, the banks will have to totally write off all the loans. If the airline survives under new management, the banks might still have some chance to recover a part of their loans at least. Banks will end up taking a haircut. If new management turns around the company and makes profits over the next 2-3 years, banks can still recover some of the loans. All depends on who ends up controlling 9W, and their strategy in a low-fare market where fares don't cover costs on many routes!

Everyone is praying the situation won't become unsalvageable, except NG probably, and he is using it as a leverage and playing a dangerous game of poker most likely! He is the only one with nothing much to lose. Banks, EY, operational creditors, employees will all lose if 9W goes under.
Last edited by blrsea on Tue Jan 29, 2019 4:26 pm, edited 2 times in total.
 
jbs2886
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Re: Jet Airways: reports cash running out

Tue Jan 29, 2019 4:21 pm

unrave wrote:
We have more details about the Jet rescue plan

    SBI to own 15% Of Jet Airways
    Lenders led by SBI will hold nearly 30%
    Etihad Airways’ stake may go above 40% from current 24% as they infuse more equity.
    Naresh Goyal’s stake may go below 20% from the current 51% after fresh shares


If I'm thinking about this right, can't SBI, the lenders and Etihad decide to sell to Tata or whomever else because they diluted NG's control via share ownership? Kind of a multi-step transaction.
 
blrsea
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Re: Jet Airways: reports cash running out

Tue Jan 29, 2019 4:22 pm

jbs2886 wrote:
unrave wrote:
We have more details about the Jet rescue plan

    SBI to own 15% Of Jet Airways
    Lenders led by SBI will hold nearly 30%
    Etihad Airways’ stake may go above 40% from current 24% as they infuse more equity.
    Naresh Goyal’s stake may go below 20% from the current 51% after fresh shares


If I'm thinking about this right, can't SBI, the lenders and Etihad decide to sell to Tata or whomever else because they diluted NG's control via share ownership? Kind of a multi-step transaction.


They can, but no buyer (including EY) wants NG or his cronies anywhere near the company. With 18-20% share, he will still have a place on the board. So no go for now :)
 
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lightsaber
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Re: Jet Airways: reports cash running out

Tue Jan 29, 2019 4:29 pm

blrsea wrote:
jbs2886 wrote:
unrave wrote:
We have more details about the Jet rescue plan

    SBI to own 15% Of Jet Airways
    Lenders led by SBI will hold nearly 30%
    Etihad Airways’ stake may go above 40% from current 24% as they infuse more equity.
    Naresh Goyal’s stake may go below 20% from the current 51% after fresh shares


If I'm thinking about this right, can't SBI, the lenders and Etihad decide to sell to Tata or whomever else because they diluted NG's control via share ownership? Kind of a multi-step transaction.


They can, but no buyer (including EY) wants NG or his cronies anywhere near the company. With 18-20% share, he will still have a place on the board. So no go for now :)

Concur. Goyal might receive some, but not much. Certainly not a board seat. The money has to come from somewhere. EY might or might not invest depending on terms. The fact they haven't says their minimum terms have not been met. There is no point investing unless Jet can be made viable (profitable) quickly.

I really wonder how much longer the standoff can last before any potential angel investor walks away.

Jet needs a fortune to keep opperating! How much are they losing per day? What is there total negative value?

This could be quite the election shock. I see no reason for EY to throw good money after bad on the current offered terms.

Could they just be trying to ensure Goyal takes the blame? It doesn't cost more than hotel and executive pay to keep talking.

Lightsaber
You only have the first amendment with the 2nd. If you're not going to offend someone with what you say, you don't have the 1st.
 
Exeiowa
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Re: Jet Airways: reports cash running out

Tue Jan 29, 2019 5:38 pm

If the above information is correct (5 leasers working together) that's a big deal and must be the wake up call none were heading sooner, presumably collectively they could have grounded more than five if they wanted too, but this was more about sending a message than recovering these aircraft at this time it would seem. The bad PR isn't going to be wiped out by some spin quickly. With the back log of narrow bodies on order, frames have value, and if you don't pay up we will find a home for them else where is the message. I just do not understand why they could not have accepted reality earlier it would have been less painful overall. But this stubborn refusal might cost them all in the end.
 
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lightsaber
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Re: Jet Airways: reports cash running out

Tue Jan 29, 2019 6:02 pm

Exeiowa wrote:
If the above information is correct (5 leasers working together) that's a big deal and must be the wake up call none were heading sooner, presumably collectively they could have grounded more than five if they wanted too, but this was more about sending a message than recovering these aircraft at this time it would seem. The bad PR isn't going to be wiped out by some spin quickly. With the back log of narrow bodies on order, frames have value, and if you don't pay up we will find a home for them else where is the message. I just do not understand why they could not have accepted reality earlier it would have been less painful overall. But this stubborn refusal might cost them all in the end.

There are six aircraft grounded:

https://www.indiatvnews.com/amp/busines ... und-501791

The unraveling has begun... Not paying MROs, leasors... Is insurance up to date?

Lightsaber
You only have the first amendment with the 2nd. If you're not going to offend someone with what you say, you don't have the 1st.
 
Exeiowa
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Re: Jet Airways: reports cash running out

Tue Jan 29, 2019 6:18 pm

"Decided to ground" might be a generous way to describe the person whose property it is refusing to let you use it for not paying them!
 
Antarius
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Re: Jet Airways: reports cash running out

Tue Jan 29, 2019 6:22 pm

edealinfo wrote:
Naresh is still wily because he is not putting any more money at risk...: it is Etihad and SBI/banks! He isn’t throwing good money after bad. At this stage of the game, he has 20 percent of the gains of any upside to a potential recovery without having to invest a further dime. He may still have the last laugh.


This. Eddie Lampert would be proud.
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