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SomebodyInTLS
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Re: What is the aviation impact of a no-deal Brexit?

Tue Aug 28, 2018 12:25 pm

Arion640 wrote:
Again you see, it’s not a case of those “pesky foreigners” it’s the fact we can’t control who is coming here and doing what they want. I think it’s great having migrants coming here and contributing through high paid jobs. In the future, lets choose the workers and skills we want.


So you don't want all those lower-paid EU migrants who on average made vastly higher contributions to UK social systems than the average British Citizen?

This whole thing was based on completely incorrect "facts" insinuated and propagated by certain parties for their own political gain.
"As with most things related to aircraft design, it's all about the trade-offs and much more nuanced than A.net likes to make out."
 
Arion640
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Re: What is the aviation impact of a no-deal Brexit?

Tue Aug 28, 2018 12:31 pm

SomebodyInTLS wrote:
Arion640 wrote:
Again you see, it’s not a case of those “pesky foreigners” it’s the fact we can’t control who is coming here and doing what they want. I think it’s great having migrants coming here and contributing through high paid jobs. In the future, lets choose the workers and skills we want.


So you don't want all those lower-paid EU migrants who on average made vastly higher contributions to UK social systems than the average British Citizen?

This whole thing was based on completely incorrect "facts" insinuated and propagated by certain parties for their own political gain.


Nope.

My local area has been taken over by mass immigration, while there’s a huge housing shortage hugely inflating prices. It’s unsustainable and cannot go on.

The population is way too high and this country is only a certain size. It’s not the united states with miles upon miles of open priory
to be built on in the coming hundreds of years.
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SomebodyInTLS
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Re: What is the aviation impact of a no-deal Brexit?

Tue Aug 28, 2018 12:39 pm

RobK wrote:
reidar76 wrote:
Norway has had two referendums concerning EU membership and both times the majority (52% against 48%) said 'no' to joining the EU. The main reason is that we want tariffs and customs borders. Norway has high tariffs in order to protect a higher average standard of living and a significantly higher salary level than the EU. Without tariffs it would be impossible to stay competitive in sectors like agriculture.

But, there is a huge majority in Norway that supports the four freedoms, the implementation of EU law and its agencies, including oversight by the EU court. Having a common aviation market and letting the EU agency (EASA) handle certification and safely regulations, is unproblematic for Norwegians.


48% of the voting population is not a "huge majority" no matter how you try to spin it.


Reading comprehension not your strong suit then... his whole point was about the difference between full membership and a trade deal including the four freedoms.
"As with most things related to aircraft design, it's all about the trade-offs and much more nuanced than A.net likes to make out."
 
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SomebodyInTLS
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Re: What is the aviation impact of a no-deal Brexit?

Tue Aug 28, 2018 12:42 pm

Arion640 wrote:
We tried re-negotiating the free movement of people, it didn’t happen. Britian is prepared to take the risk.


This is the lack of respect for the (at least) other half of the country that so irks me.

Britain is FAR from unified on this issue and you do NOT speak for the country!
"As with most things related to aircraft design, it's all about the trade-offs and much more nuanced than A.net likes to make out."
 
Arion640
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Re: What is the aviation impact of a no-deal Brexit?

Tue Aug 28, 2018 1:11 pm

SomebodyInTLS wrote:
Arion640 wrote:
We tried re-negotiating the free movement of people, it didn’t happen. Britian is prepared to take the risk.


This is the lack of respect for the (at least) other half of the country that so irks me.

Britain is FAR from unified on this issue and you do NOT speak for the country!


Again, I just vote on my concerns.

Brexit won, so clearly the country wants out. It’s great for you to shout from the other side of the channel (presumably Toulouse) and tell me i’m wrong?

Britain is not a free for all and cannot continue to be flooded with people. Yes i’m aware of the Economic contributions before someone points that out.
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Dutchy
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Re: What is the aviation impact of a no-deal Brexit?

Tue Aug 28, 2018 2:08 pm

Boeing74741R wrote:
For the record, I voted to remain and would be quite happy if Brexit was called off before we officially leave. It would probably mean the end of Theresa May's political career, but sometimes the greater good of the country is more important and, as an elected politician who holds the highest office on the land, she should be aware of this in particular. The same goes for Jeremy Corbyn who, despite leading a generally pro-EU party and supposedly backed to remain 2 years ago despite his eurosceptic history, seems quite happy to go along with Brexit and I suspect is hoping this will bring down the government in order to become PM regardless of the wider ramifications of a bad/no deal Brexit. However I digress...


I think, whatever the outcome, we can effectively say the political carrier of both Theresa May and Jeremy Corbyn will be over. Theresa May hasn't been an effective leader, but I think she still limps around because nobody feels they have anything to gain if they took over the leadership right now. The same with Jeremy Corbyn, but to lesser extend.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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PPVLC
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Re: What is the aviation impact of a no-deal Brexit?

Tue Aug 28, 2018 2:45 pm

Arion640 wrote:
LTU330 wrote:
Arion640 wrote:

The experiment over 17 million people want to happen. More than the population of the Netherlands.

Bye bye EU. It’s not been fun.


You make it sound like most of the Country wants out. 52% of those who voted wanted out. that means that infact 48% of them didn't want out, and independant polls like the one two weeks ago now show that more than 100 constituancies that voted out have had a swing of opinion in the opposite direction now. Then if you factor in the ex-pats who are British Citizens and can vote in an election but were for some reason excluded from being allowed to vote in the one thing that actually affects them we wouldn't even be having this discussion now. By the way, good luck thinking you will get British people working in the fields or cleaning toilets etc without wanting to be paid 20 quid an hour (for some reason the minimum wage is beneath what some British people want, despite it being higher than in most of Europe already). A lot of British people don't seem to understand that the UK Government can in fact set its own rules about people coming from the EU. They just chose not to do it, but everyone still blames the EU. Here in Germany if you come from another EU State you can't simply start claiming benefits (which seems to be what most British people are moaning about) and unlike the UK, Germany did not permit people from the new EU States freedom of movement in the first two years of their entry in the Union (IIRC). Despite my username, I am British, but reading some of the venom and outright lies spread about the EU and Europeans (especially the hatred towards a lot of the former Eastern Bloc Countries people) really does make me ashamed to be British at the moment.

However, back on topic, there is no way that flights will simply have to stop or RR Engines suddenly become unusable. The UK will still be part of EASA. You don't just get kicked out of an organization like that because of Brexit, just like British Airways won't just get kicked out of the IAG Group. What will be a problem is the chaos caused by the immigration system now with every non UK Citizen having to be screened coming in to the UK. The queues at most of the UK Airports are bad enough now, so I imagine a lot of potential tourists from Europe will be put off when they find out they are going to be queuing up at immigration for hours on end when they land.


It’s time to take back control :checkmark:


"take back control" and give it to whom? Stop and think about the two lads who think Brexit is a good thing, Wladimir Putin and Donald Trump...
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PPVLC
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Re: What is the aviation impact of a no-deal Brexit?

Tue Aug 28, 2018 2:46 pm

Arion640 wrote:
LTU330 wrote:
Arion640 wrote:

The experiment over 17 million people want to happen. More than the population of the Netherlands.

Bye bye EU. It’s not been fun.


You make it sound like most of the Country wants out. 52% of those who voted wanted out. that means that infact 48% of them didn't want out, and independant polls like the one two weeks ago now show that more than 100 constituancies that voted out have had a swing of opinion in the opposite direction now. Then if you factor in the ex-pats who are British Citizens and can vote in an election but were for some reason excluded from being allowed to vote in the one thing that actually affects them we wouldn't even be having this discussion now. By the way, good luck thinking you will get British people working in the fields or cleaning toilets etc without wanting to be paid 20 quid an hour (for some reason the minimum wage is beneath what some British people want, despite it being higher than in most of Europe already). A lot of British people don't seem to understand that the UK Government can in fact set its own rules about people coming from the EU. They just chose not to do it, but everyone still blames the EU. Here in Germany if you come from another EU State you can't simply start claiming benefits (which seems to be what most British people are moaning about) and unlike the UK, Germany did not permit people from the new EU States freedom of movement in the first two years of their entry in the Union (IIRC). Despite my username, I am British, but reading some of the venom and outright lies spread about the EU and Europeans (especially the hatred towards a lot of the former Eastern Bloc Countries people) really does make me ashamed to be British at the moment.

However, back on topic, there is no way that flights will simply have to stop or RR Engines suddenly become unusable. The UK will still be part of EASA. You don't just get kicked out of an organization like that because of Brexit, just like British Airways won't just get kicked out of the IAG Group. What will be a problem is the chaos caused by the immigration system now with every non UK Citizen having to be screened coming in to the UK. The queues at most of the UK Airports are bad enough now, so I imagine a lot of potential tourists from Europe will be put off when they find out they are going to be queuing up at immigration for hours on end when they land.


It’s time to take back control :checkmark:


"take back control" and give it to whom? Stop and think about those two lads who think Brexit is a good thing, Wladimir Putin and Donald Trump...
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par13del
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Re: What is the aviation impact of a no-deal Brexit?

Tue Aug 28, 2018 2:56 pm

JayBCNLON wrote:
I wonder how Britain can maintain a permanent seat in the UN Security Council. Theough Brexit the UK has lost credibility, has become an unreliable player without an basis of power.

Since you bought it up, the UK and France are permanent members of the UN Security Council because they were / are nuclear powers, they have multiple bombs.
What the rest of the world has to ask is why two members of the EU were allowed to remain as permanent members of the Security Council, with the EU being the negotiating power for all if not most things EU, one would have thought that they would have deferred their individual seats for a shared or rotating one....allowing someone else to be elevated.
It is just another one of the quirks of the EU and the world interaction.
 
Arion640
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Re: What is the aviation impact of a no-deal Brexit?

Tue Aug 28, 2018 3:18 pm

PPVLC wrote:
Arion640 wrote:
LTU330 wrote:

You make it sound like most of the Country wants out. 52% of those who voted wanted out. that means that infact 48% of them didn't want out, and independant polls like the one two weeks ago now show that more than 100 constituancies that voted out have had a swing of opinion in the opposite direction now. Then if you factor in the ex-pats who are British Citizens and can vote in an election but were for some reason excluded from being allowed to vote in the one thing that actually affects them we wouldn't even be having this discussion now. By the way, good luck thinking you will get British people working in the fields or cleaning toilets etc without wanting to be paid 20 quid an hour (for some reason the minimum wage is beneath what some British people want, despite it being higher than in most of Europe already). A lot of British people don't seem to understand that the UK Government can in fact set its own rules about people coming from the EU. They just chose not to do it, but everyone still blames the EU. Here in Germany if you come from another EU State you can't simply start claiming benefits (which seems to be what most British people are moaning about) and unlike the UK, Germany did not permit people from the new EU States freedom of movement in the first two years of their entry in the Union (IIRC). Despite my username, I am British, but reading some of the venom and outright lies spread about the EU and Europeans (especially the hatred towards a lot of the former Eastern Bloc Countries people) really does make me ashamed to be British at the moment.

However, back on topic, there is no way that flights will simply have to stop or RR Engines suddenly become unusable. The UK will still be part of EASA. You don't just get kicked out of an organization like that because of Brexit, just like British Airways won't just get kicked out of the IAG Group. What will be a problem is the chaos caused by the immigration system now with every non UK Citizen having to be screened coming in to the UK. The queues at most of the UK Airports are bad enough now, so I imagine a lot of potential tourists from Europe will be put off when they find out they are going to be queuing up at immigration for hours on end when they land.


It’s time to take back control :checkmark:


"take back control" and give it to whom? Stop and think about those two lads who think Brexit is a good thing, Wladimir Putin and Donald Trump...


The UK parliament.

And no, i have no love for Trump or putin.
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tommy1808
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Re: What is the aviation impact of a no-deal Brexit?

Tue Aug 28, 2018 3:56 pm

par13del wrote:
What the rest of the world has to ask is why two members of the EU were allowed to remain as permanent members of the Security Council


Because you can't make someone with a veto right go?

with the EU being the negotiating power for all if not most things EU,


aside of trade each EU member has its independent foreign policy.

Best regards
Thomas
This Singature is a safe space......
 
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par13del
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Re: What is the aviation impact of a no-deal Brexit?

Tue Aug 28, 2018 4:59 pm

tommy1808 wrote:
Because you can't make someone with a veto right go?
Best regards
Thomas

One would have thought that being developed countries with superior intellect they would have done so voluntarily to avoid a major imbalance in such a major world body, but....
we digress.
 
londonistan
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Re: What is the aviation impact of a no-deal Brexit?

Tue Aug 28, 2018 5:31 pm

par13del wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:
Because you can't make someone with a veto right go?
Best regards
Thomas

One would have thought that being developed countries with superior intellect they would have done so voluntarily to avoid a major imbalance in such a major world body, but....
we digress.

The old adage ' you couldn't organise a piss up in a brewery' springs to mind
 
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SomebodyInTLS
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Re: What is the aviation impact of a no-deal Brexit?

Tue Aug 28, 2018 6:05 pm

Arion640 wrote:
clearly the country wants out


I disavow your definition of "clearly"...

This is the very definition of not clear
"As with most things related to aircraft design, it's all about the trade-offs and much more nuanced than A.net likes to make out."
 
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neomax
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Re: What is the aviation impact of a no-deal Brexit?

Tue Aug 28, 2018 6:07 pm

Arion640 wrote:
Brexit won, so clearly the country wants out.


Brexit is a lot of things but a clear majority is not one of them.
 
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par13del
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Re: What is the aviation impact of a no-deal Brexit?

Tue Aug 28, 2018 6:22 pm

neomax wrote:

Brexit is a lot of things but a clear majority is not one of them.

How much of a majority on a single issue vote is acceptable, more that what is used to put a government in power for 5 years?
 
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Re: What is the aviation impact of a no-deal Brexit?

Tue Aug 28, 2018 9:09 pm

neomax wrote:
Arion640 wrote:
Brexit won, so clearly the country wants out.


Brexit is a lot of things but a clear majority is not one of them.


Leave won by a majority of over a million. More people voted to leave than the population of the Netherlands.

A win is a win.
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prebennorholm
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Re: What is the aviation impact of a no-deal Brexit?

Tue Aug 28, 2018 9:49 pm

This thread has drifted away from its topic, aviation impact of no-deal Brexit. The CAA mentions 11 major issues of a hard Brexit, some are changes to be made, others are things to build up from scratch, and then there are things which are lost. Let me mention 4 of those 11 issues:

The UK withdraws completely from the EASA system in March 2019, meaning that the CAA will need to make arrangements to fulfil regulatory functions without having EASA as a technical agent and without having access to EASA and EU-level capabilities.

The CAA will have to build up an office to cope with those things which EASA does today. Time is running. That office should function full speed by 30 March next year. Will they start making that office before they are 100% sure that Brexit will end with no deal?

The UK is no longer included in EU-level Bilateral Aviation Safety Agreements.

I don't know what impact that will have. Can somebody help?

There is no mutual recognition agreement between the EU and the UK for aviation licences, approvals and certificates.

This is what we have discussed to death. Huge impact on component manufacturers, maintenance companies, and on mobility of future flight crews if nothing is done, and done fast.

The EU treats UK airlines as Third Country Operators.

Airlines are already preparing for that by partially flagging out of the UK. Consequense will be reduced frexibility of fleet and crew planning, especially in cases of irregularities such as broken planes, crews falling ill, weather, etc.

Any further comments on those 4 issues defined by th CAA?
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bendewire
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Re: What is the aviation impact of a no-deal Brexit?

Tue Aug 28, 2018 9:50 pm

It's amazing scaremongers are on A-net. EU aviation is akin to the EU car industry, no deal would be catastrophic for EU jobs and economy as it would be for UK jobs and economy. For that reason there will be a deal but the EU are acting like spoiled kids who have had their candy has been taken away, the candy being £8.6 billion the EU will not receive.

As far as aviation is concerned not only bi-lateral rights but what about overfly's for both the EU and UK all parties concerned know a no deal would be a disaster and currently it's like a poker game as to who will give in first to whatever deal the other side proposes.

So as of April 1st 2019 you will not see any difference to March 31st 2019 as a deal will be done as both sides know the damage if it is not and none of the 27 EU leaders would want that to happen on their watch.
 
senatorflyer
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Re: What is the aviation impact of a no-deal Brexit?

Tue Aug 28, 2018 10:09 pm

LTU330 wrote:
Arion640 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:

We'll see how your little experiment will go.


The experiment over 17 million people want to happen. More than the population of the Netherlands.

Bye bye EU. It’s not been fun.


You make it sound like most of the Country wants out. 52% of those who voted wanted out. that means that infact 48% of them didn't want out, and independant polls like the one two weeks ago now show that more than 100 constituancies that voted out have had a swing of opinion in the opposite direction now. Then if you factor in the ex-pats who are British Citizens and can vote in an election but were for some reason excluded from being allowed to vote in the one thing that actually affects them we wouldn't even be having this discussion now. By the way, good luck thinking you will get British people working in the fields or cleaning toilets etc without wanting to be paid 20 quid an hour (for some reason the minimum wage is beneath what some British people want, despite it being higher than in most of Europe already). A lot of British people don't seem to understand that the UK Government can in fact set its own rules about people coming from the EU. They just chose not to do it, but everyone still blames the EU. Here in Germany if you come from another EU State you can't simply start claiming benefits (which seems to be what most British people are moaning about) and unlike the UK, Germany did not permit people from the new EU States freedom of movement in the first two years of their entry in the Union (IIRC). Despite my username, I am British, but reading some of the venom and outright lies spread about the EU and Europeans (especially the hatred towards a lot of the former Eastern Bloc Countries people) really does make me ashamed to be British at the moment.

However, back on topic, there is no way that flights will simply have to stop or RR Engines suddenly become unusable. The UK will still be part of EASA. You don't just get kicked out of an organization like that because of Brexit, just like British Airways won't just get kicked out of the IAG Group. What will be a problem is the chaos caused by the immigration system now with every non UK Citizen having to be screened coming in to the UK. The queues at most of the UK Airports are bad enough now, so I imagine a lot of potential tourists from Europe will be put off when they find out they are going to be queuing up at immigration for hours on end when they land.


You forgot the 17 million or so Brits who couldn’t be bothered to go to cast their vote.
 
senatorflyer
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Re: What is the aviation impact of a no-deal Brexit?

Tue Aug 28, 2018 10:10 pm

Arion640 wrote:
neomax wrote:
Arion640 wrote:
Brexit won, so clearly the country wants out.


Brexit is a lot of things but a clear majority is not one of them.


Leave won by a majority of over a million. More people voted to leave than the population of the Netherlands.

A win is a win.


See answer above. So no, it’s not that clear.
 
Arion640
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Re: What is the aviation impact of a no-deal Brexit?

Tue Aug 28, 2018 10:32 pm

senatorflyer wrote:
LTU330 wrote:
Arion640 wrote:

The experiment over 17 million people want to happen. More than the population of the Netherlands.

Bye bye EU. It’s not been fun.


You make it sound like most of the Country wants out. 52% of those who voted wanted out. that means that infact 48% of them didn't want out, and independant polls like the one two weeks ago now show that more than 100 constituancies that voted out have had a swing of opinion in the opposite direction now. Then if you factor in the ex-pats who are British Citizens and can vote in an election but were for some reason excluded from being allowed to vote in the one thing that actually affects them we wouldn't even be having this discussion now. By the way, good luck thinking you will get British people working in the fields or cleaning toilets etc without wanting to be paid 20 quid an hour (for some reason the minimum wage is beneath what some British people want, despite it being higher than in most of Europe already). A lot of British people don't seem to understand that the UK Government can in fact set its own rules about people coming from the EU. They just chose not to do it, but everyone still blames the EU. Here in Germany if you come from another EU State you can't simply start claiming benefits (which seems to be what most British people are moaning about) and unlike the UK, Germany did not permit people from the new EU States freedom of movement in the first two years of their entry in the Union (IIRC). Despite my username, I am British, but reading some of the venom and outright lies spread about the EU and Europeans (especially the hatred towards a lot of the former Eastern Bloc Countries people) really does make me ashamed to be British at the moment.

However, back on topic, there is no way that flights will simply have to stop or RR Engines suddenly become unusable. The UK will still be part of EASA. You don't just get kicked out of an organization like that because of Brexit, just like British Airways won't just get kicked out of the IAG Group. What will be a problem is the chaos caused by the immigration system now with every non UK Citizen having to be screened coming in to the UK. The queues at most of the UK Airports are bad enough now, so I imagine a lot of potential tourists from Europe will be put off when they find out they are going to be queuing up at immigration for hours on end when they land.


You forgot the 17 million or so Brits who couldn’t be bothered to go to cast their vote.


Sure.

But they clearly don’t care as they had the right to vote but didn’t choose to exercise that right. So Leave wins.

If all those who were eligible to vote came out and voted remain on that day and remain won, fair game.

So that argument is invalid.
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Samrnpage
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Re: What is the aviation impact of a no-deal Brexit?

Tue Aug 28, 2018 10:39 pm

Anyone who has based brexit on immigration and foreigners make my blood boil. Brexit is nothing to do with them and foreigners have every right to be in our country. In fact, 25% of the NHS workforce is foreign. The % of foreigners on benefits is less than 1%, the % of british people on benefits is over 11%, and guess what, those 11% blame the foreigners for them not having a job. Blaming others.

Its truly is a shame that some peoples votes count the same as others. Someone with a degree in economics vote is the sames as someone who never worked a day in their lives. Being "British" doesnt matter, its not even a thing. You are born on a piece of rock it doesnt matter which bit of rock you are born on, everyone is the same. Its the only major flaw of democracy.

Onto the thread. Its more than likely a deal will be made, its too much loss on all sides without one. However if there was No deal, the UK would be shot to pieces, we dont trade with the world currently, we trade through the EU so effectively everything will just stop, which wont happen, the government wont let it. The scary part is I know of people who are apart of the governments contingency plan, they are stockpiling food, medicine and the basics, as if there is no deal, overnight it becomes illegal for anyone to trade anything on UK soil as all laws, even as simple as buying a bottle of water, if its from somewhere else, like america, its illegal.
 
Samrnpage
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Re: What is the aviation impact of a no-deal Brexit?

Tue Aug 28, 2018 10:44 pm

Arion640 wrote:
senatorflyer wrote:
LTU330 wrote:

You make it sound like most of the Country wants out. 52% of those who voted wanted out. that means that infact 48% of them didn't want out, and independant polls like the one two weeks ago now show that more than 100 constituancies that voted out have had a swing of opinion in the opposite direction now. Then if you factor in the ex-pats who are British Citizens and can vote in an election but were for some reason excluded from being allowed to vote in the one thing that actually affects them we wouldn't even be having this discussion now. By the way, good luck thinking you will get British people working in the fields or cleaning toilets etc without wanting to be paid 20 quid an hour (for some reason the minimum wage is beneath what some British people want, despite it being higher than in most of Europe already). A lot of British people don't seem to understand that the UK Government can in fact set its own rules about people coming from the EU. They just chose not to do it, but everyone still blames the EU. Here in Germany if you come from another EU State you can't simply start claiming benefits (which seems to be what most British people are moaning about) and unlike the UK, Germany did not permit people from the new EU States freedom of movement in the first two years of their entry in the Union (IIRC). Despite my username, I am British, but reading some of the venom and outright lies spread about the EU and Europeans (especially the hatred towards a lot of the former Eastern Bloc Countries people) really does make me ashamed to be British at the moment.

However, back on topic, there is no way that flights will simply have to stop or RR Engines suddenly become unusable. The UK will still be part of EASA. You don't just get kicked out of an organization like that because of Brexit, just like British Airways won't just get kicked out of the IAG Group. What will be a problem is the chaos caused by the immigration system now with every non UK Citizen having to be screened coming in to the UK. The queues at most of the UK Airports are bad enough now, so I imagine a lot of potential tourists from Europe will be put off when they find out they are going to be queuing up at immigration for hours on end when they land.


You forgot the 17 million or so Brits who couldn’t be bothered to go to cast their vote.


Sure.

But they clearly don’t care as they had the right to vote but didn’t choose to exercise that right. So Leave wins.

If all those who were eligible to vote came out and voted remain on that day and remain won, fair game.

So that argument is invalid.


Just a game for you, "Leave wins". Childs mentality that.
 
Arion640
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Re: What is the aviation impact of a no-deal Brexit?

Tue Aug 28, 2018 10:46 pm

Samrnpage wrote:
Arion640 wrote:
senatorflyer wrote:

You forgot the 17 million or so Brits who couldn’t be bothered to go to cast their vote.


Sure.

But they clearly don’t care as they had the right to vote but didn’t choose to exercise that right. So Leave wins.

If all those who were eligible to vote came out and voted remain on that day and remain won, fair game.

So that argument is invalid.


Just a game for you, "Leave wins". Childs mentality that.


Really? Or perhaps just the truth?
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Samrnpage
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Re: What is the aviation impact of a no-deal Brexit?

Tue Aug 28, 2018 10:53 pm

Arion640 wrote:
Samrnpage wrote:
Arion640 wrote:

Sure.

But they clearly don’t care as they had the right to vote but didn’t choose to exercise that right. So Leave wins.

If all those who were eligible to vote came out and voted remain on that day and remain won, fair game.

So that argument is invalid.


Just a game for you, "Leave wins". Childs mentality that.


Really? Or perhaps just the truth?


Hilarious, you are like everyone else who voted to leave. You are happy that you are on the side that won, thats it. If remain won, youd be saying the same thing, just vise versa. Its a very common trait of humanity, look it up, its called belonging, its why football and sports is so popular, to feel like you belong to something. You completely ignore actual evidence and focus on the only things that back your argument up despite the facts being in your face. For you its "immigration, leave won" and other stupid idiotic arguments like that that you will come up with.

If I ask you where the 50% of the money that the Sheffield council get from the EU, and I ask where that is coming from? You wont answer. If I asked you who is going to make up the billions of pounds worth of rebates the EU gave us to fund our failing NHS, you wont be able to answer. These are the type of questions that matter. Nothing else.

IF you come back and say "the money we give the EU" ...... its a complete fad, we give 0.5% of our GDP away to the EU, same as every other country, its just that ours is massive in comparision. We were kings in the EU, we clicked our fingers. The EU laid the red carpet and gave us what we wanted.
 
JayBCNLON
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Re: What is the aviation impact of a no-deal Brexit?

Tue Aug 28, 2018 10:57 pm

SomebodyInTLS wrote:
Arion640 wrote:
Again you see, it’s not a case of those “pesky foreigners” it’s the fact we can’t control who is coming here and doing what they want. I think it’s great having migrants coming here and contributing through high paid jobs. In the future, lets choose the workers and skills we want.


So you don't want all those lower-paid EU migrants who on average made vastly higher contributions to UK social systems than the average British Citizen?

This whole thing was based on completely incorrect "facts" insinuated and propagated by certain parties for their own political gain.


I agree 100% - I love reading your posts they are always spot on and well written.
 
Samrnpage
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Re: What is the aviation impact of a no-deal Brexit?

Tue Aug 28, 2018 10:59 pm

JayBCNLON wrote:
SomebodyInTLS wrote:
Arion640 wrote:
Again you see, it’s not a case of those “pesky foreigners” it’s the fact we can’t control who is coming here and doing what they want. I think it’s great having migrants coming here and contributing through high paid jobs. In the future, lets choose the workers and skills we want.


So you don't want all those lower-paid EU migrants who on average made vastly higher contributions to UK social systems than the average British Citizen?

This whole thing was based on completely incorrect "facts" insinuated and propagated by certain parties for their own political gain.


I agree 100% - I love reading your posts they are always spot on and well written.


I second this - foreigners on benefits as a % is less than british people as a % on benefits. 25% of the NHS is run by foreigners as well.
 
JayBCNLON
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Re: What is the aviation impact of a no-deal Brexit?

Tue Aug 28, 2018 11:06 pm

par13del wrote:
JayBCNLON wrote:
I wonder how Britain can maintain a permanent seat in the UN Security Council. Theough Brexit the UK has lost credibility, has become an unreliable player without an basis of power.

Since you bought it up, the UK and France are permanent members of the UN Security Council because they were / are nuclear powers, they have multiple bombs.
What the rest of the world has to ask is why two members of the EU were allowed to remain as permanent members of the Security Council, with the EU being the negotiating power for all if not most things EU, one would have thought that they would have deferred their individual seats for ashared or rotating one....allowing someone else to be elevated.
It is just another one of the quirks of the EU and the world interaction.


On that basis North Korea should have a permanent seat. No one in their right mind can want that-and I believe that most of us would agree that that is no longer a criterion.

No, seriously, as a true European I wish the EU would be given a permanent seat. But as long as the UN is based on national states I believe India should be given a seat and in Europe Germany of course being by far the most populous (after Russia), most powerful economically and most reliable and responsible politically.

The UK’s political relevance and place on the world stage is nothing but nostalgic with Brexit - how it was induced and executed and the fact that it was (made) possible - IMO.
 
JayBCNLON
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Re: What is the aviation impact of a no-deal Brexit?

Tue Aug 28, 2018 11:33 pm

Arion640 wrote:
SomebodyInTLS wrote:
Arion640 wrote:
We tried re-negotiating the free movement of people, it didn’t happen. Britian is prepared to take the risk.


This is the lack of respect for the (at least) other half of the country that so irks me.

Britain is FAR from unified on this issue and you do NOT speak for the country!


Again, I just vote on my concerns.

Brexit won, so clearly the country wants out. It’s great for you to shout from the other side of the channel (presumably Toulouse) and tell me i’m wrong?

Britain is not a free for all and cannot continue to be flooded with people. Yes i’m aware of the Economic contributions before someone points that out.


Xenophobic posts like this frighten me.
 
Arion640
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Re: What is the aviation impact of a no-deal Brexit?

Tue Aug 28, 2018 11:37 pm

JayBCNLON wrote:
Arion640 wrote:
SomebodyInTLS wrote:

This is the lack of respect for the (at least) other half of the country that so irks me.

Britain is FAR from unified on this issue and you do NOT speak for the country!


Again, I just vote on my concerns.

Brexit won, so clearly the country wants out. It’s great for you to shout from the other side of the channel (presumably Toulouse) and tell me i’m wrong?

Britain is not a free for all and cannot continue to be flooded with people. Yes i’m aware of the Economic contributions before someone points that out.


Xenophobic posts like this frighten me.


Well this country is not getting any larger. Do you want one giant city then?

There’s nothing Xenophobic about wanting controlled immigration.

Do you call the Australians Xenophobic for using a points based entry system?
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Samrnpage
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Re: What is the aviation impact of a no-deal Brexit?

Tue Aug 28, 2018 11:39 pm

Arion640 wrote:
JayBCNLON wrote:
Arion640 wrote:

Again, I just vote on my concerns.

Brexit won, so clearly the country wants out. It’s great for you to shout from the other side of the channel (presumably Toulouse) and tell me i’m wrong?

Britain is not a free for all and cannot continue to be flooded with people. Yes i’m aware of the Economic contributions before someone points that out.


Xenophobic posts like this frighten me.


Well this country is not getting any larger. Do you want one giant city then?

There’s nothing Xenophobic about wanting controlled immigration.

Do you call the Australians Xenophobic for using a points based entry system?


Seriously, is your whole life based around immigration? Despite the fact that more people are leaving the UK than entering it?

You anger me so much, you ignored my post above as well because you know that you cannot have an answer to it.
 
JayBCNLON
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Re: What is the aviation impact of a no-deal Brexit?

Tue Aug 28, 2018 11:43 pm

Arion640 wrote:
JayBCNLON wrote:
Arion640 wrote:

Again, I just vote on my concerns.

Brexit won, so clearly the country wants out. It’s great for you to shout from the other side of the channel (presumably Toulouse) and tell me i’m wrong?

Britain is not a free for all and cannot continue to be flooded with people. Yes i’m aware of the Economic contributions before someone points that out.


Xenophobic posts like this frighten me.


Well this country is not getting any larger. Do you want one giant city then?

There’s nothing Xenophobic about wanting controlled immigration.

Do you call the Australians Xenophobic for using a points based entry system?


Speaking of a “flood” of people is clearly xenophobic. Speaking of it when it just isn’t there is also xenophobic. Not being aware of it is dangerous.
 
Arion640
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Re: What is the aviation impact of a no-deal Brexit?

Tue Aug 28, 2018 11:44 pm

Samrnpage wrote:
Arion640 wrote:
JayBCNLON wrote:

Xenophobic posts like this frighten me.


Well this country is not getting any larger. Do you want one giant city then?

There’s nothing Xenophobic about wanting controlled immigration.

Do you call the Australians Xenophobic for using a points based entry system?


Seriously, is your whole life based around immigration? Despite the fact that more people are leaving the UK than entering it?

You anger me so much, you ignored my post above as well because you know that you cannot have an answer to it.


Feel free to be angry.

I’m not quite sure what figures you’re looking at, but net migration is still way too high. I have many work colleagues who are migrants to this country, it’s not their fault as they’ve come here legally, it’s the fault of the EU.

Please re-submit your question as so many posts have been directed at me on this thread.
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Arion640
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Re: What is the aviation impact of a no-deal Brexit?

Tue Aug 28, 2018 11:45 pm

JayBCNLON wrote:
Arion640 wrote:
JayBCNLON wrote:

Xenophobic posts like this frighten me.


Well this country is not getting any larger. Do you want one giant city then?

There’s nothing Xenophobic about wanting controlled immigration.

Do you call the Australians Xenophobic for using a points based entry system?


Speaking of a “flood” of people is clearly xenophobic. Speaking of it when it just isn’t there is also xenophobic. Not being aware of it is dangerous.


So are the Australians Xenophobic then?
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JayBCNLON
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Re: What is the aviation impact of a no-deal Brexit?

Tue Aug 28, 2018 11:49 pm

Look at yourself before you look at others.
Last edited by JayBCNLON on Tue Aug 28, 2018 11:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
Arion640
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Re: What is the aviation impact of a no-deal Brexit?

Tue Aug 28, 2018 11:50 pm

JayBCNLON wrote:
Look at yourself before you look st others.


That’s ok - don’t provide solutions or answers, just carry on throwing insults.
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Samrnpage
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Re: What is the aviation impact of a no-deal Brexit?

Wed Aug 29, 2018 2:03 am

Arion640 wrote:
Samrnpage wrote:
Arion640 wrote:

Well this country is not getting any larger. Do you want one giant city then?

There’s nothing Xenophobic about wanting controlled immigration.

Do you call the Australians Xenophobic for using a points based entry system?


Seriously, is your whole life based around immigration? Despite the fact that more people are leaving the UK than entering it?

You anger me so much, you ignored my post above as well because you know that you cannot have an answer to it.


Feel free to be angry.

I’m not quite sure what figures you’re looking at, but net migration is still way too high. I have many work colleagues who are migrants to this country, it’s not their fault as they’ve come here legally, it’s the fault of the EU.

Please re-submit your question as so many posts have been directed at me on this thread.


Immigration DOESNT MATTER!!!!!!.

Its the least of our concerns, in fact.

My question is based of number #123, #126 posts.
 
tommy1808
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Re: What is the aviation impact of a no-deal Brexit?

Wed Aug 29, 2018 5:25 am

bendewire wrote:
It's amazing scaremongers are on A-net. EU aviation is akin to the EU car industry,


Volkswagen is currently parking a LOT of cars all over the place because they have reached the point where no one cared that they can´t be certified to the new 6D standard in time to ship them. There are limits, even for core industries.

no deal would be catastrophic for EU jobs and economy as it would be for UK jobs and economy.


The no-deal Brexit effects will be in the low single digits for all EU countries, RoI is looking at 4% GDP loss and that is the hardest hit EU country. Don´t be fooled by the trade deficit, there may be more exports from the EU into the UK than the other way round, but the Rest-EU is a vastly larger economy, so those exports are just a small part of their exports, but a vast chunk of the UKs exports.

The whole "They need us more than we need them, and hence getting the deal we want will be easy" got a firm "no" before, during and since the vote.

For that reason there will be a deal but the EU are acting like spoiled kids who have had their candy has been taken away, the candy being £8.6 billion the EU will not receive.


The EU is just correctly applying the single market rules and EU treaties. You know, those that the UK was one of the biggest driving forces behind and voted yes to each and every single provision.

The EU made very clear statements about what kind of deal can and can´t be done, from Norways style via basic free trade to no-deal WTO before, during and since the vote.
The UK drew up red line that are mutually exclusive with their hopes for a deal after the vote.
If the EU cared much for that money, the UK would have gotten a deal against access fee quite quickly. The "Have cake and eat it" philosophy is squarely on the UK side.

As far as aviation is concerned not only bi-lateral rights but what about overfly's for both the EU and UK all parties concerned know a no deal would be a disaster and currently it's like a poker game as to who will give in first to whatever deal the other side proposes.


I don´t think pure overflights will be a problem. In the unlikely event they do become a problem, the UK is easy to fly around, the rest of the EU... not so much.

So as of April 1st 2019 you will not see any difference to March 31st 2019 as a deal will be done as both sides know the damage if it is not and none of the 27 EU leaders would want that to happen on their watch.


Here is the thing: The EU has come to the conclusion that breaking the single markets integrity will do more harm to the EU´s economy than any Brexit, however chaotic it may be. There will be no "compromise" that breaks EU rules, the UK has to come up with a plan that works under EU law. The arbitrary UK red lines play no role in this. And the rest of the "you have to sort out our dealings with the EU before we can talk about trade deals first" world clearly took sides too.

best regards
Thomas
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Jomar777
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Re: What is the aviation impact of a no-deal Brexit?

Wed Aug 29, 2018 7:51 am

I could have written million of posts here about the BREXIT but... hey!!!... this site is about AVIATION! Let's keep to it only.
Rest is rest.

Having said that, please bear in mind that a transition period is as certain as the fact that immigrants that live actually in the UK and in the EU will be allowed to stay regardless of that governments say nowadays. In other words, a transition of some sort will happen for some time (I would say that 12 -18 months is the most likely scenario).

So we have until October 2018 (date of the key EU Summit), then 29th of March 2019 (date of the official exit) and, afterwards more one year or so for a deal to be reached (in which meanwhile, the EU guidelines will prevail).

That considering that extra dates and legal challenges/campaigns, extension of deadlines, etc. etc. etc., will not occur (which seems unlikely - some sort of extras will come up - just see the EU deal with Canada - which is apparently now dead in the water...).

All in all: Flights will NOT stop. Deals WILL be struck. Airports will NOT close even temporarily. People will NOT be stuck anywhere.

The only real effect of BREXIT (deal or no deal) will be on pricing which may shift depending on extra costs 9or not...) incurred by airlines which they might pass on to the passenger - unfortunatelly.

Anything else, for better or for worse, is pure panic.
 
JayBCNLON
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Re: What is the aviation impact of a no-deal Brexit?

Wed Aug 29, 2018 8:08 am

Amen.
Last edited by JayBCNLON on Wed Aug 29, 2018 8:12 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
JayBCNLON
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Re: What is the aviation impact of a no-deal Brexit?

Wed Aug 29, 2018 8:08 am

Amen.
 
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speedygonzales
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Re: What is the aviation impact of a no-deal Brexit?

Wed Aug 29, 2018 8:19 am

Please take any Brexit discussion that's not aviation related over to the active thread in the non-av forum:
viewtopic.php?f=11&t=1399389
Ignorance kills. :tombstone:
 
ZaphodHarkonnen
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Re: What is the aviation impact of a no-deal Brexit?

Wed Aug 29, 2018 8:20 am

As of this moment with no deals being made it will be a total mess on Brexit day. However if deals are made then it depends entirely on the content of the deals as to how much mess there will be.

The UK government has decided the best way to provide businesses with stability during this negotiation period is to say utterly nothing while waving the flag NO DEAL IS POSSIBLE. So no wonder people are planning for the worst when the government has shown no ability to show they've made anything even resembling progress.
 
Arion640
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Re: What is the aviation impact of a no-deal Brexit?

Wed Aug 29, 2018 9:31 am

Jomar777 wrote:
I could have written million of posts here about the BREXIT but... hey!!!... this site is about AVIATION! Let's keep to it only.
Rest is rest.

Having said that, please bear in mind that a transition period is as certain as the fact that immigrants that live actually in the UK and in the EU will be allowed to stay regardless of that governments say nowadays. In other words, a transition of some sort will happen for some time (I would say that 12 -18 months is the most likely scenario).

So we have until October 2018 (date of the key EU Summit), then 29th of March 2019 (date of the official exit) and, afterwards more one year or so for a deal to be reached (in which meanwhile, the EU guidelines will prevail).

That considering that extra dates and legal challenges/campaigns, extension of deadlines, etc. etc. etc., will not occur (which seems unlikely - some sort of extras will come up - just see the EU deal with Canada - which is apparently now dead in the water...).

All in all: Flights will NOT stop. Deals WILL be struck. Airports will NOT close even temporarily. People will NOT be stuck anywhere.

The only real effect of BREXIT (deal or no deal) will be on pricing which may shift depending on extra costs 9or not...) incurred by airlines which they might pass on to the passenger - unfortunatelly.

Anything else, for better or for worse, is pure panic.


This is bang on the money :checkmark: :checkmark:
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tommy1808
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Re: What is the aviation impact of a no-deal Brexit?

Wed Aug 29, 2018 9:56 am

Jomar777 wrote:
All in all: Flights will NOT stop. Deals WILL be struck. Airports will NOT close even temporarily. People will NOT be stuck anywhere..


Only this is the no-deal thread and not the last minute deal thread.
You may have noticed that their isn't much disagreement on a no deal exit being unlikely, but then again Brexit seems to go from one "oh.. who would have thought" to the next, so who knows. And if betting odds are anything to go by....

Best regards
Thomas
This Singature is a safe space......
 
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Loew
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Re: What is the aviation impact of a no-deal Brexit?

Wed Aug 29, 2018 10:35 am

Gemuser wrote:
prebennorholm wrote:
Gemuser wrote:
Dutchy: You are forgetting a very major point, for aviation technical areas, EASA/EU itself has no authority in international civil aviation, its authority is derived from the membership of ICAO by the various nation states of Europe, including the UK. The UK is still a member of ICAO and Brexit will/can not change that. They can simply use existing EASA rules/regulations by adopting them under UK law. As an ICAO member ALL other members HAVE to recognise them, under ICAO rules unless they are shown to be deficient. The EU is NOT a member of ICAO.
Undoubtedly there will be disruption but not the fall off a cliff you envisage.

Gemuser

No, Gemuser. That is totally wrong.
ICAO is a UN organisation which makes recommendations to UN member states about how civil aviation rules are made in individual countries or groups of countries. And they recommend as much harmonisation a possible.

There is of course no reason the EASA after Brexit cannot certify or license UK companies which are overseen by a future UK civil aviation agency. ... Until the UK has a working and capable agency like the FAA, or the TCCA in Canada etc, and the EU has a bilateral agreement with it, then there is a huge problem.

How, dear Gemuser, will you avoid the cliff with much less than 7 months to go? Dutchy is right. .


I have snipped the quote and will only address the points above.
ICAO IS NOT a UN Treaty Agency! It operates under its own treaty [the Chicago Convention & subsequent] and is NOT responsible to the General Assembly, It is only administratively part of the UN. A country can be a member of ICAO WITHOUT being a member of the UN. ICAO makes the rules not recommendations which are approved by a majority of the membership.. Individual members can opt out of individual parts of the rules if they wish.

The UK already has a working & presumably capable "national aviation authority", the CAA. As detailed above all existing EASA laws, regulations etc have ALREADY been adopted by the UK, effective on exit date. Given that, it would take very little to get it up and running, a little bit of recruitment, and the UK has a large aviation sector to draw on. I really doubt other countries [at least outside the EU] will have any problem with the CAA.

Nothing I have said applies to traffic rights [ASAs]. They are outside the convention. I have no real knowledge of these outside Australia, however given the amount of money involve IMHO there will NOT be any real, widespread problem with non EU countries, at least.

Gemuser


While ICAO is not a UN treaty agency, it is still a UN agency, or more specifically a specialized agency of the UN, and has been such since 1947. You see, ICAO was created before UN, by the so called Chicago convention in 1944, however with an UN type organization already in the mind of the signatory parties. That is why Article 64 of Chicago convention states: "The Organization may, with respect to air matters within its competence directly affecting world security, by vote of the Assembly, enter into appropriate arrangements with any general organization set up by the nations of the world to preserve peace."

UN was created later in 1945 and in 1947 at the first ICAO assembly, resolution A1-2 was adopted, approving the agreement of relationship between the UN and the ICAO. and authorized the President of the Council (ICAO council) to sign a protocol bringing into force the agreement concerning such a relationship between the UN and ICAO. By this agreement ICAO became a UN specialized agency.
 
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Loew
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Re: What is the aviation impact of a no-deal Brexit?

Wed Aug 29, 2018 10:36 am

Loew wrote:
Gemuser wrote:
prebennorholm wrote:
No, Gemuser. That is totally wrong.
ICAO is a UN organisation which makes recommendations to UN member states about how civil aviation rules are made in individual countries or groups of countries. And they recommend as much harmonisation a possible.

There is of course no reason the EASA after Brexit cannot certify or license UK companies which are overseen by a future UK civil aviation agency. ... Until the UK has a working and capable agency like the FAA, or the TCCA in Canada etc, and the EU has a bilateral agreement with it, then there is a huge problem.

How, dear Gemuser, will you avoid the cliff with much less than 7 months to go? Dutchy is right. .


I have snipped the quote and will only address the points above.
ICAO IS NOT a UN Treaty Agency! It operates under its own treaty [the Chicago Convention & subsequent] and is NOT responsible to the General Assembly, It is only administratively part of the UN. A country can be a member of ICAO WITHOUT being a member of the UN. ICAO makes the rules not recommendations which are approved by a majority of the membership.. Individual members can opt out of individual parts of the rules if they wish.

The UK already has a working & presumably capable "national aviation authority", the CAA. As detailed above all existing EASA laws, regulations etc have ALREADY been adopted by the UK, effective on exit date. Given that, it would take very little to get it up and running, a little bit of recruitment, and the UK has a large aviation sector to draw on. I really doubt other countries [at least outside the EU] will have any problem with the CAA.

Nothing I have said applies to traffic rights [ASAs]. They are outside the convention. I have no real knowledge of these outside Australia, however given the amount of money involve IMHO there will NOT be any real, widespread problem with non EU countries, at least.

Gemuser


While ICAO is not a UN treaty agency, it is still a UN agency, or more specifically a specialized agency of the UN, and has been such since 1947. You see, ICAO was created before UN, by the so called Chicago convention in 1944, however with an UN type organization already in the mind of the signatory parties. That is why Article 64 of Chicago convention states: "The Organization may, with respect to air matters within its competence directly affecting world security, by vote of the Assembly, enter into appropriate arrangements with any general organization set up by the nations of the world to preserve peace."

UN was created later in 1945 and in 1947 at the first ICAO assembly, resolution A1-2 was adopted, approving the agreement of relationship between the UN and the ICAO. and authorized the President of the Council (ICAO council) to sign a protocol bringing into force the agreement concerning such a relationship between the UN and ICAO. By this agreement ICAO became a UN specialized agency.
 
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SomebodyInTLS
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Re: What is the aviation impact of a no-deal Brexit?

Wed Aug 29, 2018 11:16 am

Arion640 wrote:
JayBCNLON wrote:
Arion640 wrote:

Well this country is not getting any larger. Do you want one giant city then?

There’s nothing Xenophobic about wanting controlled immigration.

Do you call the Australians Xenophobic for using a points based entry system?


Speaking of a “flood” of people is clearly xenophobic. Speaking of it when it just isn’t there is also xenophobic. Not being aware of it is dangerous.


So are the Australians Xenophobic then?


Actually, yes.

And by the way, just about every country in the world has a large number of people banging on about immigration (the French used to resent the British buying up all their old farmhouses...) - it's just a fear of change.

Edit: posted this before I got to the request to take it outside...
Last edited by SomebodyInTLS on Wed Aug 29, 2018 11:24 am, edited 1 time in total.
"As with most things related to aircraft design, it's all about the trade-offs and much more nuanced than A.net likes to make out."
 
londonistan
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Re: What is the aviation impact of a no-deal Brexit?

Wed Aug 29, 2018 11:21 am

Arion640 wrote:
JayBCNLON wrote:
Arion640 wrote:

Well this country is not getting any larger. Do you want one giant city then?

There’s nothing Xenophobic about wanting controlled immigration.

Do you call the Australians Xenophobic for using a points based entry system?


Speaking of a “flood” of people is clearly xenophobic. Speaking of it when it just isn’t there is also xenophobic. Not being aware of it is dangerous.


So are the Australians Xenophobic then?

Yes. And that also goes for the 'Australians' who decided that Aboriginal Peoples who had been there for 50,000 years were worthless. And the way that the 'Boat People' have been treated. The current Aussie administration is one of the most right-wing & xenophobic in it's history. And that's the way we're going if people like you ever get into power....which is looking increasingly likely after Brexit. Take Back Control...all 17 million out of 60 million? sounds like a coup to me...

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