slawko
Posts: 3742
Joined: Tue May 25, 1999 7:40 am

A Bit Of Aviation History!

Wed Mar 13, 2002 12:23 pm

Just thought I would share a bit of Aviation History with all of you.....

The AVRO Jetliner - When we use the term Jetliner today we us it as a general term to describe virtually any commercial passenger aircraft. But in 1949, this term was a name rather then a description. The AVRO Jetliner was the trade mark name of North Americans FIRST, and the Worlds Second Jet passenger aircraft. On August 10th 1949 the AVRO Jetliner made it's first flight. It was developed out of a requirement for a 30 passenger 1,200NM range aircraft from Trans Canada Airlines. The airplane had to cruse at 400MPH and be able to operate from existing 4000 ft runways.

Initial plans called for the airplane to be powered by powered by two new powerful Rolls-Royce AJ65 Engines, but the British Authorities were not willing to release these new powerful engines to a civilian airliner, especially one built outside of England. The decision was made to replace the two engines with four less powerful engines. Unfortunately this decision was not approved of by TCA, and they pulled out of the program. Nevertheless AVRO continued on with its plan to build the jet. Two years after it's inception the airplane was making it's first taxi tests, and on August 10th the aircraft took to the skies for the first time. This was a full five years before the Boeing 707 was completed. At the time Canada was still under the British Empire, and as such the British authorities did not want one of their commonwealth nations beating them in aviation history, as such the AVRO plane was delayed by 14 days so that the DeHavilland Comet could be the worlds first passenger jet aircraft. The Jetliner would go on to make a few "Firsts", on April 18th 1950 the jetliner mad the worlds first ever "jetmail" service between Toronto, and New York, it also set a record for the shortest flight between the two cities, at a mere 58 minutes, as opposed to the usual 1 hour 45 mins. Even though TCA was not interested in the airplane, several American airlines, as well as the Canadian and American air forces were interested in this new plane. Howard Hughes had the airplane flown to his plant in California where he test flew the airplane, and indicated that he would like a few for his airlines, TWA and National. The increasing Korean war, and the threat of a Soviet Attack of North America meant that the project was scrapped, in favour of increased CF-100 production. IN 1953 the project was almost restarted, but in the end the aircraft met the fate of many of AVRO's aircraft and was cut up into pieces and sold for scrap. Today the only part that remains of the aircraft is a section of the nose, currently at the Canadian Aeronautical Collection in Ottawa.

This information and much more can be found at http://www.torontoaviation.com

Enjoy!

"Clive Beddoe says he favours competition, but his actions do not support that idea." Robert Milton - CEO Air Canada
 
fallingeese
Posts: 2031
Joined: Sat Apr 28, 2001 2:33 pm

RE: A Bit Of Aviation History!

Wed Mar 13, 2002 12:51 pm

It's a real shame how the Canadian government screwed over Avro on so many projects. They were so far ahead of their time, Arrow, Jetliner, they were even proposing a mach 3 Arrow. Some say the performance of the Arrow still isn't matched today.
Mark McWhirter...Contrails Photography
 
gmonney
Posts: 2076
Joined: Fri Jan 12, 2001 2:59 pm

RE: A Bit Of Aviation History!

Wed Mar 13, 2002 2:25 pm

It is a shame, That Avro was and could have been a landmark aircraft. I know that this informatiion is out there....but where did you get it.????? Some of this stuff I didn't know....Oh great site, i will have to read more about it!!!

Thanks,

Grant
Drive it like you stole it!
 
L-188
Posts: 29881
Joined: Wed Jul 07, 1999 11:27 am

RE: A Bit Of Aviation History!

Wed Mar 13, 2002 10:23 pm

Yeah...Fallingeese. You are absolutly correct about the Canadian governments ability to shoot it's aviation industry in the foot!

There isn't a damm reason why Canadian Airlines shouldn't be flying Canadian Aircraft. And I don't mean those dinky little things that Bombardier Group builds. I mean real heavy iron.
OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
 
FordLover
Posts: 189
Joined: Wed Sep 26, 2001 3:12 am

RE: A Bit Of Aviation History!

Wed Mar 13, 2002 10:34 pm

I believe we went through this a couple of months ago.
Though I still believe it's sad that governments hold back progress, when they stand to gain so much from it. Oh well, I guess that's life.

http://www.airliners.net/discussions/general_aviation/read.main/713525/6/
 
GDB
Posts: 12678
Joined: Wed May 23, 2001 6:25 pm

RE: A Bit Of Aviation History!

Thu Mar 14, 2002 12:24 am

Ironic that the UK goverment helped to screw a Canadian project, they usually just do that sort of thing to British industry.
The engine excuse is pure BS. A few years earlier the same goverment sold R/R Nene jet engines to the USSR.
Without the Nene, the Mig-15 would have been like the original P-51's, before they got the Merlin engine.
As soon as they allowed this sale in 1946, they went on to cancel the Miles M.52 research aircraft, then nearing completion.
This aircraft could have broken the sound barrier months before Yeager in the Bell X-1.
And the M.52 was a proper jet aircraft, not a rocket-vehicle carried by a B-29 bomber.
 
GDB
Posts: 12678
Joined: Wed May 23, 2001 6:25 pm

RE: A Bit Of Aviation History!

Thu Mar 14, 2002 4:12 am

Here's a pic of the Jetliner's nose;


Click for large version
Click here for full size photo!

Photo © Pierre Lacombe



And the CF-105;


Click for large version
Click here for full size photo!

Photo © Pierre Lacombe



Another potentially outstanding aircraft axed;


Click for large version
Click here for full size photo!

Photo © Steve Williams



And one which the UK goverment tried to cancel on at least two occasions;


Click for large version
Click here for full size photo!

Photo © John Kelly



A few of my colleauges in BA Concorde engineering started their working lives on the TSR2 project at Vickers, or in the RAF. Despite happily working on Concorde at BA for 25-35 years, they are still angry about the axeing of the TSR2 in 1965.
Some engineers from the Jetliner and later CF-105 programmes, joined NASA.
No pics of the M.52 in the photo index.
 
slawko
Posts: 3742
Joined: Tue May 25, 1999 7:40 am

RE: A Bit Of Aviation History!

Thu Mar 14, 2002 10:46 am

Dont you just wish you could go back in time and kick these people in the head!!!....Oh well it's all 20/20 now I guess.....
"Clive Beddoe says he favours competition, but his actions do not support that idea." Robert Milton - CEO Air Canada
 
L-188
Posts: 29881
Joined: Wed Jul 07, 1999 11:27 am

RE: A Bit Of Aviation History!

Thu Mar 14, 2002 8:58 pm

Actually you can partially count two British contributions to dead Canadian airplane projects.

The Arrow was originally going to be flown with Rolls Royce engines. But that engine project was cancelled. This forced Avro to design their own engine. The development of this engine pushed the Arrow project back.

Acutally the cancellation of the Arrow did help one country's aircraft engine program. The French government had orders for the Irqouis(spl?) engine from Canada. The engine project was cancelled with the Arrow and the French where forced to develop their highly successfull ATAR engine family, which was used in their Mirage fighters.
OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
 
CV990
Posts: 4224
Joined: Sat May 22, 1999 3:49 am

RE: A Bit Of Aviation History!

Thu Mar 14, 2002 9:37 pm


Hi!

Everytime someone talks about this I have a pain in my heart!!!! Politics it's the worth think we have in our world. The Jetliner and the Arrow ended because of pure politics, nothing else, and when these things happen we must always take a lesson! My aplause go to all the workers of Avro that one day had a dream and a bunch of politics ended that like a nightmare!
regards
CV990, the Maserati of the skies!
 
slawko
Posts: 3742
Joined: Tue May 25, 1999 7:40 am

RE: A Bit Of Aviation History!

Fri Mar 15, 2002 4:16 am

At least the industry in Canada has been able to come back and make great aircraft once again....Although can you imagine where our insudtry would be today had Avro been able to continue?? Hats off to all the people of Bombardier who keep Canada a vital player in the worlds aviation marketplace.!!

Click for large version
Click here for full size photo!

Photo © Craig Murray



Click for large version
Click here for full size photo!

Photo © Philipp Brumann



Click for large version
Click here for full size photo!

Photo © Staffan Hardie

"Clive Beddoe says he favours competition, but his actions do not support that idea." Robert Milton - CEO Air Canada
 
captaingomes
Posts: 6251
Joined: Tue Feb 13, 2001 1:33 am

RE: A Bit Of Aviation History!

Fri Mar 15, 2002 11:13 am

Canada trully has a wonderful industry, but unfortunately, much like everything else that is Canadian, there is a lot of modesty to go with it. We as Canadians just don't show the pride that other nations often show, and that's such a shame! We are trully capable of many wonderful things in this country, and Bombardier is just one example of what we can accomplish!

So let's hope that in the future, we can show the world even more of what we are capable of. The Canadian Aviation Museum in Ottawa is a great example of what we've done, and it shall grow as we do more in the future! The Toronto Aviation Enthusiasts website is a way for us to celebrate Canadian aviation and get like minded people together for some good times!
"it's kind of like an Airbus, it's an engineering marvel, but there's no sense of passion" -- J. Clarkson re: Coxster
 
L-188
Posts: 29881
Joined: Wed Jul 07, 1999 11:27 am

RE: A Bit Of Aviation History!

Fri Mar 15, 2002 7:02 pm

Yeah but wasn't DHC owned by Boeing when they developed the Dash7 and Dash8?
OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
 
slawko
Posts: 3742
Joined: Tue May 25, 1999 7:40 am

RE: A Bit Of Aviation History!

Fri Mar 15, 2002 11:59 pm

The Dash-7 was developed by DHC, then Boeing bought them and the Dash-8 was developed, the only thing is when beoing was in charge the program was a bit of a dud, and they could not make the regional airplane market move. It was after boeing sold DHC that the airplane line really took off, and all of the other variants of the 8 were built....not to mention the global express!
"Clive Beddoe says he favours competition, but his actions do not support that idea." Robert Milton - CEO Air Canada
 
gmonney
Posts: 2076
Joined: Fri Jan 12, 2001 2:59 pm

RE: A Bit Of Aviation History!

Sat Mar 16, 2002 12:32 am

I love reading into the history of Canadian Avaition....it seems like us Canadian have been a key part in the development of aircraft. Great to see that somepeople are keeping it alive!!!

Good Job guys,

Grant
Drive it like you stole it!

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