airplanetire
Posts: 1783
Joined: Sun May 13, 2001 11:59 pm

Would A Really Small Long Range Plane Be Good?

Thu Mar 14, 2002 9:08 am

Would it be good if there was a really small long range plane? Something like the A319 with range to fly LHR-SIN, except it could fly routes that not a lot of people would fly like Rochester, New York-BCN or something else. Would it be profitable to fly so few people on a long flight like that, or does it even matter the size of the plane as long as it can be filled enough?
 
777-200
Posts: 959
Joined: Wed Mar 08, 2000 11:11 pm

RE: Would A Really Small Long Range Plane Be Good?

Thu Mar 14, 2002 9:38 am

An A319 could easily Make a Hop from US east cost to Europe if i'm not mistaken
Another Day, Another Dollar.... Young Jeezy
 
Boeing Nut
Posts: 5078
Joined: Fri Feb 23, 2001 2:42 am

RE: Would A Really Small Long Range Plane Be Good?

Thu Mar 14, 2002 9:39 am

Sounds like BBJ/A319CJ territory to me.
I'm not a real aeronautical engineer, I just play one on Airliners.net.
 
Samurai 777
Posts: 2000
Joined: Thu Jan 27, 2000 2:56 pm

RE: Would A Really Small Long Range Plane Be Good?

Thu Mar 14, 2002 9:55 am

I doubt a fully loaded commercial A319 could really go from the US eastern seaboard to, say, LHR or CDG, unless it was fitted with extra fuel tanks. The airline might also have to impose severe payload restrictions, such as baggage size and number restrictions.

However, if I remember correctly, I thought Lufthansa and maybe a couple of other airlines were considering ordering some A319CJ's or converting existing A319's into an all J-class configuration.

Of course, this is not to say that narrowbodies don't fly on regular scheduled airline transatlantic routes anymore. Continental flies 757-200s out of CLE and EWR to LGW. I know Canada 3000 flew 757-200ERS on transatlantic routes, too.
 
drcv41
Posts: 28
Joined: Thu Nov 08, 2001 10:49 am

RE: Would A Really Small Long Range Plane Be Good?

Thu Mar 14, 2002 10:03 am

When United brings over new airbuses from France they have to stop in Iceland to refuel. I dont think an A319 can go non stop and be profitable...dr
 
n949wp
Posts: 1398
Joined: Thu Feb 03, 2000 3:45 pm

RE: Would A Really Small Long Range Plane Be Good?

Thu Mar 14, 2002 10:23 am

As a corporate jet, yes. As an airliner, no!

'949
 
woodsboy
Posts: 899
Joined: Sat Mar 18, 2000 5:59 am

RE: Would A Really Small Long Range Plane Be Good?

Thu Mar 14, 2002 10:30 am

This has been a question i have always asked myself! There are many factors involved in making money on long haul flights, not the least of which is -- how much cargo can be carried? I think most of us know that even when a BA 747-400 flies from LHR to JNB 1/2 or 2/3 full, the freight in the belly is what is paying the bills (I am useing the BA example randomly), not the pax. On smaller airplanes the passenger airfare has to cover more of the cost since there isnt as much room for freight and on many short hops, there isnt much demand for cargo space.

On an aircraft such as the A319 (or similar sized) when you have a full load of pax for a JFK-LHR run, assuming that is has the range, you will almost assuredly have a full belly of bags since international passengers tend to carry more than domestic pax do. okay, so, your flight is full with....100 (assuming an international config w/a more luxurious first class) pax and little or no room for revenue freight. You now have a flight crew of two in the cockpit and a cabin crew of at least 4 and depending on conditions, maybe a backup flight crew. Regulations would also require crew rest quarters which on a small plane like the A319 would cut into valuable pax space up above or belly space below. So, on a 747 you can carry easily 3.5x more pax with only a few more cabin crew members and no more flight crew. Flight crew costs alot and when you can accomplish the same thing with a feeder flight bringing pax to a larger hub from which a larger aircraft can carry more pax and more freight, I think you end up making a small airliner on long routes, not very economically attractive.

Another issue is, on long flights you need more catering, more fresh water, more waste water/lav waste storage and then you really start cutting into the space. When I worked at Alaska Airlines, we operated non-stop flights from Seattle to Fairbanks on MD-80s and 737-400s....this is not a terribly long flight, about 3 1/2 to 4 hours at the most but by the time they arrived from Seattle with a full load, the lavs were overflowing!! I can only imagine that on a flight twice as long, you would really have a problem dealing with that sort of thing on a smaller narrowbody (smaller than a 757).
 
777-200
Posts: 959
Joined: Wed Mar 08, 2000 11:11 pm

RE: Would A Really Small Long Range Plane Be Good?

Thu Mar 14, 2002 10:39 am

Wasn't SkyService going to Operate a A319 from East coast Canada to Europe?
Another Day, Another Dollar.... Young Jeezy
 
maiznblu_757
Posts: 4952
Joined: Fri Mar 01, 2002 12:05 pm

RE: Would A Really Small Long Range Plane Be Good?

Thu Mar 14, 2002 10:51 am

NO MORE CRJ'S OR ERJ's please!
 
fanofjets
Posts: 1979
Joined: Thu Apr 13, 2000 2:26 am

RE: Would A Really Small Long Range Plane Be Good?

Thu Mar 14, 2002 12:55 pm

Swiss World had plans to operate a 737 (either a -700 or a -800) from the US to Geneva. According the charts on the Boeing Web site, the plane can fly across the Atlantic nonstop eastbound, but the return flight would be dependent on prevailing headwinds and payload, reminiscent of the early 707-120s. Swiss World must have thought this was a profitable proposition. Then, again, that airline lasted only several months.
The aeroplane has unveiled for us the true face of the earth. -Antoine de Saint-Exupery
 
Dash8King
Posts: 2657
Joined: Wed Nov 21, 2001 8:45 am

RE: Would A Really Small Long Range Plane Be Good?

Thu Mar 14, 2002 1:37 pm

Good Question but it would Higher the CASM so unless the airline did it as an exclusive thing like the top of a 744 then NO it isn't gonna happen.
 
Guest

RE: Would A Really Small Long Range Plane Be Good?

Thu Mar 14, 2002 7:32 pm

Qatar Airways as I have mentioned before has 1 A319CJ which is currently used heavily on VIP / Premium charters. They have ordered another one that will be used on scheduled services on DOH-SIN, DOH-LHR and DOH-ZRH and other premium destinations. If this operation is not profitable then why would QR order another A319CJ.


Click for large version
Click here for full size photo!

Photo © Peter Unmuth - Vienna Aviation Photography



From Qatar Airways website

ACJ
** Contact Akbar Al Baker to charter **
Aircraft Type Airbus: A319CJ
Manufacturer: Airbus Industrie
Origin: Toulouse, France
Planes in Service: 1
Engines: International Aero Engines
V2527 M – A5
Seats: 36
Maximum take off weight: 75,500
Cruising Altitude: 41,000 feet
Cruising Speed: M 0.79 (mach)
Maximum Range: 4500 nm (8325 km)

Interiors:


 
hkgspotter1
Posts: 5750
Joined: Fri Nov 04, 2005 12:43 pm

RE: Would A Really Small Long Range Plane Be Good?

Thu Mar 14, 2002 7:46 pm

Very nice !

Was it not UA or LH that wanted to start using the A319CJ to fly the First class passengers on routes like FRA - SIN / FRA - HKG .
 
notdownnlocked
Posts: 925
Joined: Sun Sep 03, 2000 1:45 pm

RE: Would A Really Small Long Range Plane Be Good?

Thu Mar 14, 2002 11:29 pm

This looks like the same plane that was featured on a TV program here in the US on The Learning Channel. The program was about the head of the United Nations and his travels which included many flights on Qatar from BKK thru some different cities in Afghanistan to Pakistan and onwards from there to some place in the MidEast or Europe. It was quite recent as I saw it about 2 weeks ago. The plane broke down at one point and the UN head and his people toured some type of jewelry/tourist area while the plane could be repaired. Perhaps somebody else out there saw this program and can add more.